Attached Link: a call to arms...

Hello everyone, I come to you to ask for your help. The recent upgrade/update by Corel is nothing short of a joke. I speak of the mass loss of advanced display modes, the crappy dark interface, the Mac OS problem, the rediculous render times with the new volumetric materials..just to name a few. Had corel indeed instituted the site to have beta testers test a new Bryce, many of the laughable errors would have been found and perhaps fixed before this update was inflicted on the Bryce community. Corel owns bryce...we have to bend to that, but WE are the ones who buy and use it. If they release such an unreliable upgrade in the form of Bryce5, how many will they sell? FEW! Corel is in trouble financially as well. Maybe they will understand that the company could use a little change, perhaps if some of their program users approach them with letters of interest, concern, and offers of help...we can save bryce from being converted into a piece of "once good" software. I'm in hopes that the upper eschelons at Corel will listen to the users of Bryce. Im asking that either you would post a direct response to them in this thread OR that you be so kind as to email this to me at: brycetech@yahoo.com please include info like your name (or nic), your site (if you have one), email, and a mailing address (if you would like)...and include your concern and support for Bryce and any upgrades. I will then (about mid month--say the 15th) send the responses I get to corel's Bryce manager in the form of email and snail-mail. We need to be able to give our input..or b4 may indeed be the last GOOD bryce. thanx Brycetech

Right on! Im going to get off topic in some of this. I belive that Corel saw a last ditch effort , and took it. and now with the update, doesnt look like they'll stay in business..they best Listen, or they can expect to go bye bye. Anyway I was poking around in the bryce NG and came across a thread entitled "Bryce interface" In it, they totally made a joke of Kai Krause' interfce work (which I believe is quite better than that of the original bryce) It's what makes bryce fun to work with. They called 3dSM a non intuitive interface, while making praise comments on TrueSpace' intuitive button based UI (WHATEVER!) Back to business: ------------------------------------ Name: James Miyashita (DigitalArtist) Email: James_Miyashita@hotmail.com Comments: Dear reader, I have been an avid user of Bryce since version 2. I have enjoyed working with the program thusfar. The update However, was not very becomming to me. The darker interface annoyed me, the advanced scene options that were taken away was quite upsetting, and the hideous render time slowings with some volumetrics was just outragious! I actually laughed when I saw these changes. I've downgraded to the ORIGINAL version and installed the METACREATIONS update because it seems like there's been NO improvement whatsoever to the program besides the mapping modes and the starfield control. (Which, needless to say, isn't anything to jump up and down about because its more work that what its worth.) My concern is for the wellbeing of this wonderful program. For people who bought this program to further its development, aren't gainging any respect from me. If this is the best you can do, you're better off going bankrupt. We don not need another program with more bugs and fewer decent upgrades like your other products.......we actually need ADVANCEMENT! You seem to be the kind of Corporation who does the "Buy to save our own hide" thing, judging from the quality of this update. Signed, -James Matthew Miyashita ----------------------------------------------------------- Now if only they'd come in on a Brycetalk session and hear all of us bitch and moan about it (g)maybe then they'll listen to US! (hinting for a BT Q and A event with Corel in the hot seat) Production + buyer approval+ sell=profit No matter how much they produce something, if people don't approve of it, then it wont sell and COREL, wont make it's much needed profit. -James

Jon Ozolins ozolins@imap2.asu.edu I didn't have any problem with the darker interface. I never used the alternate preview modes, but I can understand how that would piss some people off. The insanely increased render times are what really bothered me. Bryce rendered slowly to begin with. Now in the "update" they actually INCREASE the render time?! What kind of logic is that? I didn't reinstall because it would be something of a pain, but the starfield improvement was hardly impressive, and I seriously doubt I'll use the new mapping modes. So essentially, the update served only to annoy the masses. Not a very good business practice. Jon Ozolins

keep em comin' guys...these are good :) we need everyone...we need those with a "name",a "powersite", or a position in a "powersite", we need new, we need the professional, the hobbiest, we need EVERYONE to respond...100 letters would be great..but 500 would be even better brycetech

I'm the hobbyist. If you like, add my web page, http://home.att.net/~ozolins/ (Graphic Cheeseworks) Oh yeah, James.. How could anyone think Truespace's interface is intuitive?? I played with TS3 for ages, never could accomplish anything. Bryce 2 was the first 3d proggy I ever played with, just loaded it up and started working. Very easy to pick up... Oh well. To each their own, I guess. =)

Harrison2 (Ron Pelley) pelley@nf.sympatico.ca www.wheres.com/etc/Harrison2 Well talk about bad press..... I downloaded the new patch and was about to install it when I started to read the messages in the Bryce Forum at Renderosity.I never will install it now, because I hold the opinions of the users at this forum in high regard.The word is out Corel. You will have to do much better to gain our support. By the way, thanks to all of you for tipping me off............Regards,H2

Ditto to Harrison2's message. I trust the opinions of the Bryce users here, and I won't bother with the update, and certainly wouldn't pay for a Bryce 5 version unless they do better at meeting our needs and addressing our concerns. I've held off for now turning to one of their many (and growing in number) competitor's products, but I will soon do so unless Corel does better by our beloved Bryce pogram. Corel should understand and heed it's customer base by honoring the voices expressed here (and on several other such user forums), or else lose potential revenues that it so sorely needs. (Hey,... we're a free marketing study, Corel!) Why did they acquire Bryce in the first place if they can't support it properly? Can you say "death spiral?"

I too have to agree with Harrison2 and Terry Mitchell on this one. I am a hobbyist and have been using Bryce since I got hooked on a magazine freebie of Bryce2. Each time the updates from Metacreations, although buggy at times, have improved some things in the program, something this upgrade has pretty much failed to do by most accounts. I am one of those people who hold off on upgrading with patches until I hear as much as possible so I can make an informed decision on whether or not it's going to improve anything, it saves grief in the long run not to mention reinstalls. This is one time when I am definitely not going to upgrade.The main and most important reason being the increase in render time! In case Corel isn't aware of it there are people out there that use Bryce as part of their livelyhood and an increase in render time can add delays to projects and deadlines which means money! Money which would probably go towards buying the new versions of Bryce. If there is no improvement why should people hand over hard earned money for a badly produced product. If Corel had come out and let users know the difficulties and the fact that their might be a delay due to it I'm sure they would have been cut a little slack in that area, instead they didn't say a lot and released a less than stellar example of future work, not a great way to start their new ownership of a well loved and respected program! I would respectfully suggest that Corel get it's collective act together and try to pull out of yet another one of the spirals it seems to find itself and try and build up a little, make that a lot of user rapport, because I think that that will be one of the only things that will help save it from sinking. I'm not just talking Bryce here cause I love it I'm talking all of their products...cause if Corel doesn't survive neither does Bryce! Corel talking to your users might open up new avenues of development and improvement, many users are technically minded as well as artists and have more than a fair idea on what they are on about! And like Terry Mitchell said we are a free marketing study base and most of us would be quite happy to give feedback to help on the development of the product. All we ask is a well thought out good quality product be it and up grade or new version and little respect in not being treated like " mass consumers" who know sweet nothing about the product they are buy other than what the advertising tells them! Please Corel talk to your users! Listen to your users! Learn from your users! and most importantly take your users seriously! Regards Eshal http://www.crosswinds.net/~iameshal/AspectsofEshal.html iameshal@crosswinds.net

beautifully worded eshal I hope that there are more posts like this one! Im getting good and bad reports, and even getting some flack for asking for this. dont really care about flack, but its sad that just because "I" dont have a problem, "YOU" dont have one either. Im thrilled for those that have done the upgrade without a hitch..this is a good thing! but Im saddened by the number of posts netwide about problems...so they do exist. Some may indeed be simple hardware conflicts...but some arent. :) thanx all keep 'em coming Brycetech

I am running Bryce on a iMac w233 mhz and 160 real/240 virtual ram. So far, no problems.

I tried the update on a Mac G3 233 with 160 RAM -- no virtual and saw no problems (other than the memory being set back to 32 M from 100 but that was an easy fix). No gamma change, so slow downs with volume renders. Now I am running the updated version on a Mac G4 450 with 64 RAM and 160 virtual RAM. Renders are significantly faster (even with volume materials and volume atmsosphere turned on). The new stars seem a little titchy about showing up when cumulous clouds are turned on (again, a minor complaint). Stratus clouds and stars works fine though.

thanx again guys... hey rick, if you havent tried the patch 4.1 from corel, give it a try...it may work on your system as it does on caligula's. mac users are indeed having the least amount of problems, but the ones they are having are big, bad, and sometimes making it impossible to have the upgrade. I knew about the mem setback in mac (but I had forgotten) thanx for reminding me caligula. looking forward to more input (good and bad) and hopefully some offers to beta test from many of you thanx Brycetech

I'm sorry about what's happened here. I wonder why?? I've gone from B3.1 to B4.1 on the Mac platform, and have found it a good thing- I didn't spend any time with 4.0 though, so I can't say if anything was different.

I don't have any complaints yet. I just can't believe redering time has been SLOWED DOWN??? WHY? I don't notice any differece in the quality, just the time it takes to render.

I don't have any complaints yet. I just can't believe rendering time has been SLOWED DOWN??? WHY? I don't notice any differece in the quality, just the time it takes to render.

Is there another post of complaints/symptoms? DEM JPEGs

Hi, Brycetech - my two cents worth for Corel: As a hopelessly addicted Bryce user, I implore Corel to respect the program - and the sales opportunities such a respect will bring. Bryce has long been a favorite not only of its die-hard fans, but also of a vast number of occasional users (both pros and amateurs) who use it to provide their pictures with that special, enigmatic something which is peculiar to Bryce, the sheer visual beauty it gives to every render (two random checks could be tgs.com Amapi gallery or almost any issue of Computer Arts magazine). Bryce has plenty of room for improvement, to be sure. Vegetation, a faster renderer, more and better import options and infinite lights, to name a few. Anyone wanting to improve the program will have access to a ready-made, detailed wish list at Renderosity.com, just to name one place to check. Moreover, Bryce has a dedicated, highly knowledgeable user community who will be more than ready to provide suggestions and beta testing, given half the chance. But please: don't rush it. Good things are worth waiting for - if they ARE good! In the meantime, Bryce can be improved with very little tampering with the core program, simply by adding more and better import filters, more and better presets and library organization (such code exists already in the user comm), and perhaps by offering a bundling deal on vegetation (and other) tex/tran maps such as those of Marlinstudios or Gardenhose (I have no commercial interest in suggesting this, they are simply the only ones I know of). Bryce's handlling of pict tex's is second to none, and this aspect of the program is both one the most potent and the most under-used parts of it. One that would also tie in perfectly with the 2D capabilities of other Corel programs, by the way! Given such short- and long-term updates, Bryce would be a must-buy for the die-hards and a very attractive extra for the occasional users. Plus which, Bryce has been the first, seductive step from traditional to digital art for many an artist - yours truly among them - so there are armies of new users waiting in the wings, if only Bryce is allowed to grow to its full potential. Cheers, Thomas aka thip

there has been a statement released by the corel manager... she said she hopes to have an answer for us this week.. (a patch for a patch??)anyhow, Im waiting to hear what she means. and also Brian Wagner released a rather lengthy explanation to the increased render times for volumetric materials. So there ARE increased times in volumetric renders...Ive read some posts of 18x longer! for the same picture! ********************************************************** Just thought you might like to see this commuication from Brian Wagner at Corel. Good news I hope you agree. "BRYCE 4.1 FIXES/CHANGES Volume Materials The problem people have been having rendering their old volume materials with the latest Bryce patch is really not a bug at all. In fact, it's a nasty side effect of fully implementing a feature that was never finished. Let me explain. In order for the Edge Softness control (seen in the Material Composer with a Volume Material) to be fully effective, the underlying object should have a feathered starting density. What this means is that the center of the object is the most dense and it becomes less dense as you get closer to the surface. The purpose of this is to allow you to blur the edges of the object in the hopes of hiding the base shape. This is useful when rendering clouds or other gaseous shapes. The Edge Softness control is meant to raise or lower this starting density pattern. Well, the only object that properly defined its starting density pattern in Bryce 4.01 was the sphere. Therefore, lots of people started using volume materials with other object types and were unknowingly relying on this flaw/bug. So, when we fixed the starting densities for ALL the objects with the latest Bryce patch, many people saw major rendering differences. Keep in mind, this should only have occurred with objects other than spheres. Why you ask? Well, because now objects are less dense near their edges by default. This not only means they won't look the same, but they will take longer (MUCH longer in some cases) to render. Less density means the ray travels further through the object, and this takes longer. So what's the fix? There is now a new option in the shading mode menu (Material Composer). It is called "Uniform Density" and it will ensure that the object's starting density will be uniform throughout its entire shape. This is good for two things. One, it provides a way to go back to the way it was (and fix the problems people are having), and it also provides a way to make objects "harder". This is good when trying to build "Full Shaded" volume materials. So, a general rule of thumb is this.use the "Uniform Density" option if you want harder looking objects/materials, or if you want to fix the "problem" described above. And guess what? There's a bonus feature for those of you who had to deal with this mess. There's another new option called "Sky Integration". Simply put, when used, it will evaluate all of the sky effects while rendering volume materials! That's right, no more clouds that stand out instead of blending nicely into the haze/fog! Cubic Mapping Modes The two new mapping modes, "World Cubic" and "Object Cubic" had their scaling effects reversed. This has been fixed so that their scaling will behave like all the other mapping modes. To be specific, lower scaling factors should increase the frequency of the texture while higher scaling factors should decrease the frequency." ******************************************************* anyhow, please get some more input in here so that we have a good showing of support to send to corel! thanx Brycetech

I would personally like to thank everyone for their comments (good and bad) today is the last day that I will be collecting emails, messages, and general concerns for Bryce5. I have learned a lot about the general outlook for B5 from the many replies...and I am very pleased to see the Bryce community speak up a little. Some of you looked to the positive, some the negative, some were outraged and some very sympathetic...this kind of input is nothing short of all I expected to recieve. I was just wanting to get some input to corel about the next version of Bryce. As I said before, if they release a blank cd with the name "bryce5" on it, I would probably buy it because I have all the other windows compatible versions, but the reviews of that would be bad to say the least..lol I have seen the very worst Bryce and the very best. I am in very high hopes that corel will listen to our concerns and suggestions (and offers of help beta testing) to make b5 the bestest of the lot :) I would also like to extend an invitation to those of you that very rarely (or have never) frequent the "other" Bryce Forum ( http://www0.delphi.com/bryce/ )to drop in and say "hi" to the gang and maybe share some comments, some of your talent, and some inspiration with us. if you would like to get in under the wire for the message collection about beta concerns and B5, please email any further messages you would like corel to see to: brycetech@yahoo.com once again, kind thanks and much appreciation brycetech

Name: Phoenix Email: arkainkas@roadrunner.nf.net Webpage: www.wheres.com/etc/phoenix I was going to install the patch but then after H2 telling me what was being said here about it I didn't. Me and H2 use Bryce among other programs for buisness purposes to have this many problems come in on a patch would not be a good thing to say the least. -Phoenix