Attached Link: http://home22.inet.tele.dk/hightower/spheres.htm

The link attached is a good account of the history of the "music of the spheres" or harmony, its roots in Pythagorean thought... no Illuminati were involved. ;) A few Greeks, though. this one is also a good page about the development of Heliocentric theory. http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Heliocentric.html

Um, let me see if I got this right: A reliable source for debunking anti-Masonic rumors is the website of the Grand Lodge of BC and the Yukon? And Galileo wasn't an Illuminati because they say so? And the connection of the Masons to the Knights Templar is "a legend" according to them? I was a DeMolay Chevalier when I graduated from high school, and I assure you it is no coincidence that the "boy's club" of the Masons shares the name of Jacque DeMolay, the Grand Master of the Knights Templar imprisoned, tortured, and executed by Philip the Fair of France. DeMolay's connection to Masonry as, shall we say, non-trivial. Accepting the Masonic explanation of the Illuminati strikes me as shaky research. About as reliable as Mormon explanations of the Aztec pyramids, Jerry Falwell's explanation of dinosaur tracks, or Clinton's of how that got on her dress. According Illuminati buffs, Weishaupt was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, and Galileo was a major player. This site is a lot more fun than the Masons, if not as official-looking: http://www.skepticfiles.org/rumor/outline1.htm. And if it seems a bit crackpottery, well, so do the ancient Hebrew origins of Freemasonry.... M

Yeah, and I'm sure you think NASA faked the moon landing too. ;) I am not the conspiracy theorist, you are. I've been around the groups (one was a website client, grandfather a mason, great-grandfather a 33rd degree Scottish rite mason) so I've seen people in the Masons firsthand. Unless you find a great mystical conspiracy in say, the invention of certain dental tools (that's what my great-grandfather did to get so notable). Or perhaps the desire to be rid of a monarchy in a backwater European country (Bavarian Illuminati, and yes, that part of my family is Bavarian, and they left to come to America). Nothing mystical going on there. But hey, some people think there's conspiracies in everything.

Galileo was a Catholic, and was one till the very end. Freemasonry has its roots in Enlightenment Europe, and not in any ancient "Hebrew" anything. They never were real stonemasons. The 'mason' part of their name is a metaphor. I really have to laugh, because the ancient Hebrews never were very advanced in the sciences and mathematics of their day. The Greeks were the notables of philosophy and mathematics, especially Anatolian Greeks such as Pythagoras. Much of Masonic ritual is based on Pythagorean concepts. Galileo and Copernicus also were influenced by the Pythagorean school. This philosophy school was based in TURKEY and run by GREEKS, for people who cannot yet read a map or figure out their nationalities... And if the Heliocentric theory seems a bit 'Sun' based, remember, they were worshipping a 'Sun' god. The Hebrews weren't worshippers of Apollo, their religion told them not to even look to the sky (check out those ten commandments again, sweetie!) and certainly had little love for the Babylonians, where the Pythagoreans likely inherited much of their mathematics knowledge, and probably some of the mysticism too. And we still count time via the Babylonian method pretty much... just improved upon. Or did you never bother to read the mathematics pages and the one history of heliocentric theories from the Infidels page (a group of raving secular humanists, aka atheists) seriously ... if someone sent you a NASA page on the Moon landings, you would say it was shaky research because it came from the official website. I just happen to know from first hand experience that there's nothing mystical about the Masons, and I sent links from an official Mason site, not an unrecognised lodge or a bunch of anti-semitic Xtian fundamentalists. So what if you were involved with some crackpottery group, needless to say, there's quite a few around. I can't know who you were really involved with, if it was official, clandestine or what. I've seen similar claims from others that claim to have been "injured" and have been involved with the Masons (just scan up the page to Riddokun's reply... you'll see what I mean) Me, I had first hand experience with Masonic family members, that lead normal lives as normal people do. Also first hand experience with a women's Masonic group in Germany (I worked on their website) My grandfather was an acquaintance of Norman Vincent Peale, and I can't see a damn thing negative or truly crackpottery about anything that Peale taught in his church. (and yes, he was a Mason, too) All the self-styled "Illuminati" groups around today are crackpots as well, and have nothing at all to do with the original group... which was a footnote in Bavaria's history.

The "crackpottery group" I was involved with was DeMolay, which is, like Job's Daughters, the Rainbow Girls, and the Order of the Evening Star, an organization created, controlled, and nurtured by the Masons. There must be an adult Mason in attendence at DeMolay initiations. I was initiated because my father was a Mason, and Chevalier was the highest honor in the organization (I was one of two in Japan, as well as Grand Master or something of Japan for a while (woo-hoo)). My information about the Masons comes from inside, at least that far inside, not what some relative chose to tell me, and not from the public statements of a private, secrecy-bound organization. Maybe you should get your own facts straight before shotgunning "reality" at folks. I didn't say I believed the Illuminati theories; that accusation is your invention. The hysterical thing about the Illuminati is that the lore represents a perfect puzzle--nothing can be proven, because truth, if there is one, is layered thicker than an onion. (The protocols of the Bavarian Illuminati are written in a code that appears to be anti-Semitic, so that if they are disclosed, people will discount them as anti-Semitic ravings. And so on.) I said I didn't see any reason to give the Masonic slant more credence than the Illuminati theorists'. Masons are nice guys with some peculiar ideas about history, notably their own. The Masons themselves trace their roots to the building of Solomon's Temple, to the stonemason's guild of the Middle Ages, and to the Knights Templar. Those facts tangle inconveniently with your own view of reality, but that don't make 'em false. Since there was no Solomon's Temple, according to my personal best authorities, being founded by the guys who built it seems, to me at least, a bit weird. Speaking of Poser, I just noticed that Displacement Bounds can be set for individual objects. M

the connection of the Masons to the Knights Templar is "a legend This one I know more about. My father-in-law is a longtime Mason and he subscribes to a magazine that has articles of interest to Freemasons. I read in that publication about the Knights Templar, actually. The historical Knights Templar were disbanded centuries ago. The modern Knights Templar were founded as an order of Masonry that has more overt and direct Christian ethics and overtones. The connection is recent, and is NOT historical. bonni

Very frustrating to be arguing from a basis of integrity that will not allow me to break an oath to an organization I know longer belong to or care about. All I can say is, while the connections to the Knights Templar, the masons guilds, and the folks who build "Solomon's temple" are no doubt imaginary, they are NOT presented as fable and allegory in the context of DeMolay. And I have to say again, reading Masons on Masonry may be useful, but there is a "conflict of interest" issue since their most important ideas and values are bundled up in blankets of secrecy and blood oaths. I suspect that the origin of the Masons is rooted in the wishful thinking of a handful of neurotic British men with no more connection to the Templars than they had to the Sufi, emissaries from Mars, or angels eager to teach them Egyptian and hand over golden plates. So in that sense, the connection is "not historical." But the connection of Germans to Proto-Aryans is "not historical," and the connection of Christ's birth to December 25th is "not historical." Not sure what "not historical" gets us.... M

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=600222&Start=1&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&

Swift taught me a long time ago to fight fire with fire. I keep forgetting. [Hell's Belles](http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=600222&Start=1&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&WhatsNew=Yes)