I believe that GraphicsMuse and timefighter have both been shocked and unpleasantly surprised by the reactions to the image/post.

But some of us weren't surprised at all.

We could have predicted the outcome with 100% accuracy.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=545754

Ummm...

If you will look at my own gallery.... and the amount of comments on my pic. I NEVER recieved anything about this being against TOS. If fact the Mod from the Vue Gallery/Forum gave it praise, as well as the rest of the comments.

I recieved 38 comments on my pic, However I can agree with XENOPHONZ about some or most of these pics not getting much attention.

I kinda feel like Rodney King...."Why can't we all just get along?"

Art is art....However I don't go to the Poser Gallery that often because because of my own personal convictions and because of the types of pics that are in there. Things like homosexuality, naked men and women, displayed in an immoral or degrading, or sexual ways...are against my moral beliefs. However...I have never one time posted any comment on any pic or complained to the admins about TOS violations because there are two men kissing in a poser pic. No ...I dont agree with those things, but the artist has the right to make whatever art they desire...so I just don't go into those galleries. If anyone has a problem with a pic of the crucified Christ....or any other pic for that matter, then don't look at it....

"Have faith in God. Truly, I tell you, if you say to this mountain "Be taken up and thrown into the sea" and if you do not have doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you." Sometimes, things happen because you believe they will, and actually cause them to happen. It has something to do with planks. ;-)

Art is art....However I don't go to the Poser Gallery that often because because of my own personal convictions and because of the types of pics that are in there. I agree with you there, timefighter ... there is way too much art in the Poser gallery that I don't even take the time to look at. I'm truly sorry that your post came to this, because you had such good intentions. But, perhaps some good will come out of it ... we'll see.

A lot of us probably wouldn't have looked at either of those (your picture is a TOS violation IMO as well, btw) had it not been brought to the forum. I personally don't peruse the religion gallery for that reason. When it's brought out though people are going to voice their opinions on the subject. My only opinion on the subject happens to be that it is against the TOS as it is currently written

timefighter said: "If anyone has a problem with a pic of the crucified Christ....or any other pic for that matter, then don't look at it...." I agree timefighter. My first mistake was to take the hook. Hook: "1. Religious Pics In Poser Gallery" I check out the Spiritual/Religious art gallery semi-reguarly and know what to expect. With this link I didn't know what to expect. Shouldn't have gone, then I wouldn't be involved in this debate. The lack of respect for ALL religions displayed by some in this thread I find to be totally disgusting.

If anyone has a problem with a pic of the crucified Christ....or any other pic for that matter, then don't look at it....

Would that the issue could be solved that easily.

That's not good enough for some.

They won't be happy until this image, and any images with a similar theme -- get spiked.

If the spiking can be accomplished by protestations of "fairness", then so much the better.

It's cleaner that way. And it doesn't require one to stand flat-footed as an opponent........to something that one so obviously despises.

I have yet to see anyone say do away with the religion category in the gallery. I have yet to see anyone say anything negative about this picture other than it is a TOS violation. No one has been spouting religion, except for the Chrisitans. No one has passed any judgement on anything other than the TOS violation (as it is currently written), except the Christians. The only ones claiming that this issue is more than a TOS violation are the Christians. Fact remains had it not been brought to the forum many people (myself included) would not have even seen the pic and therefore would not have complained about the TOS violation. This is not the first pic I have said is a TOS violation (as the TOS was written at the time I posted) and I'm sure it won't be the last. Frankly, the least tolerant people in this thread appear to be the Christians (and in my experience that is almost always how it is in life). I don't peruse the galleries looking for items that might be TOS violations just for something to do. That doesn't mean when I see one I'm not going to say something about it, especially when it is thrust into the forums.

timefighter said ... "I kinda feel like Rodney King...."Why can't we all just get along?" I have asked myself that question so many times ... and I just started a thread in the OT forum called "Maybe John Lennon was right ..." so that we can kick this thought around a bit. This isn't the appropriate place for the debate that will no doubt ensue. ;-)

Towal -- You and I are obviously reading two entirely different threads. I've seen clear examples of all of the things that you claim to have not seen. 180 degrees. But -- where you are determines what you see.

Ok. point them out to me. Show me where someone has said do away with the religion category. Show me where anyone has said anything negative about this picture except that it is a TOS violation. Where has anyone said this is more than a TOS violation except the Christians? Where has anyone spouted anything about their particular belief (ie: the TRUTH, morals, there is only one true God/religion) other than the Christians? I reread the thread after I posted and I do not see either of those things so show me what I am missing.

Towal --

I'm at work, and I don't have the time to give you a comprehensive list. Perhaps there will be time for that later this evening.

But, here's a quick quotation from post #52:

Please keep your religious beliefs out of the Poser forum. Glad you have a personal faith, but I don't need to read it, see it, or certainly be offended by your beliefs that are not my beliefs. I don't throw mine in your face, don't have to do it to me.

I will admit to have spouted about my own belief system (which admittedly is somewhere out there in limbo at this point LOL), but it was intended to be a "middle of the road" stance that addressed both sides of the issue. I might get my hand slapped for trying to be a peacemaker. 8-)

Did you ever consider that post 52 might be reacting to what was said in post 51, and not the artwork?

I personally do not come to Rendersoity to view religious or spiritual works of art. That's why I like the catagory section I can look at what I want to look at. There is a TOS and a set of standards that we all agree to when we sign up here, guidlines rules that need to be enforced. The Off Topic forum would be a place to hold religious discussions, not the Poser Forum. I do not come to the Rend Poser Forum to see or read about someone elses spiritual beliefs or be force feed how I should feel, or that I'm wrong, that is not my purpose in coming to the Forums, nor is the forums purpose. I like religious art works, and the image in question was well done, it would have been nice to know what programs were used to create it or about the items used, but thats not a big deal it's art to me don't absolutly need to know. I'm not Christian, I love the work of DeVinchi, Michealanlo, Bernini and the great masters. There is a uneven distribution of how rules are inforced or what and how we as site members should act when the 'rules' change, or we are not told what the rules are. When we do get guidelines someone comes along and violates those rules or guidelines yet others get in trouble for similar infractions. I have a problem with this. We as members also have no way to clean up our acts and fly right as the TOS keeps a on your permenant record of infractions, 3 strikes your out approach. Part of the TOS is that attacks or revenge posts are a violation. I get offended when someone throws their religion in my face and tells me my beliefs are wrong. I'm made to feel less than and apart when I have not done a thing and that hurts, yet nothing gets done about this kind of violation at all. words can kill. I come to software forums to learn about the software and tips tricks new developments and sometimes see someones art work. Latly there are those that try or do it unintentionally and the forum goes completly off topic out on a limb and guns are blazing where words fly as shrapnel inflicking wounds. I'm glad that there are places and we all have a part where we can go and discuss and feel free to express our selves, I don't go where I don't want to see things, and I certainly don't want to see some things in th poser forum. in a seperate gallery, in a seperate forum, I do not have to go there I can express my free will by not participating in those things and enjoy the places that I do want to go. With all that is going on in Poserland, this certainly is the last subject that I wanted to deal with, read about or partake in here in the Poser forum. I'm sorry if my comments have offended anyone, or my posts have hurt you or made anybody have to defend thier beliefs, certainly was not intentional on my part. However when a gun is pointed at me I defend my self and my rights and beliefs, just didn't think I'd have to do that in a software forum, and it saddens me.

Did you ever consider that post 52 might be reacting to what was said in post 51, and not the artwork? It sounds like a pretty general statement to me. Look -- I don't need to re-hash the entire thread. Frankly, this debate will never reach a conclusion. And I seriously doubt that anyone's mind is going to be changed by what anyone else says here. That's just the way it is. So.....C'est la vie.

Xeno: np. I'm going offline for a while myself in just a bit. That quote you posted from 52 is in response to this: I applaude Nathalie for her beliefs that shows an example of our Lord Jesus' sacrifice for us. This image is an example of the greatest act of love ever done by anyone who ever walked this earth. Which is exactly what I said. The only people spouting their personal beliefs and saying in essence there is only ONE true God/Reglion are the Christians. That, IMO, is not a terribly tolerant point of view. There must be thousands of recognized religions in the world. Interestingly, if you look in webster's dictionary they define both Voodoo and Wiccan as religions, but they do not Satanism (which I think is normally classified as a religion). MysticMind: I had to go back and reread your posts because nothing from them stuck out in my mind as being particularly "preachy". Having reread them I still feel that way. You have expressed how you feel without saying there is only ONE true way to believe. There is only ONE true God/religion. While you did post your beliefs, it was not done in a judgemental way, IMO. That cannot be said for some of the other Christian posts in this thread (again IMO).

The only people spouting their personal beliefs

Everyone has the right to "spout" their personal beliefs. And not be condemned for doing so.

Including you and me.

Ok, folks this isn't really solving anything.. The matter is being looked into and discussed.. Thanks pushinfaders

My libertarian thinking is showing..........

One of the things that really irritates people is something called certitude.

Whenever someone comes along, and stands without apology for their beliefs -- others are inevitably offended.

Speaking out is always a risk. Best to remain silent, if one does not want a fight on one's hands.

Everyone has the right to "spout" their personal beliefs. And not be condemned for doing so. So, if that's the case, does that mean I can spout about how I think X is true even if it isn't. For example (Something I do NOT believe) "All Catholic priests are pedophiles and molest little boys". This is NOT true. However, Xenophonz, you're being hypocrytical. You're trashing people for spouting THEIR belief that the item in question is a TOS violation. It /is/ with the current TOS. Do I think it should be ripped down? NO. It's a well done image. The TOS merely needs to change.

Ok, folks this isn't really solving anything..

You have the right of it.

you're being hypocrytical. You're trashing people for spouting THEIR belief

Oh, really?

There is a distinct difference between disagreeing with someone's ideas.....and condeming them out of hand for having those ideas in the first place.

I don't understand where "hypocritical" comes into play here.

You have the right to speak out. So do I.

I have the right to say that your ideas are wrong.

That's not hypocrisy. That's the opposite of hypocrisy.

But, pushinfaders is right....this is really going nowhere. We'll never agree.

Whenever someone comes along, and stands without apology for their beliefs -- others are inevitably offended When will you realize that it's not your beliefs that people are taking offense to ... it is your assertion that it is the One Truth that everyone takes offense to? There are many christians (with a small C) in the world ... but let me ask this. Which branch of christianity has a handle on the truth? Catholics? Episcopaleans? Presbyterians? Baptists? Jehovah Witnesses? Congretationalists? Mormons? If what we know of as Christianity had all the answers, then why so many divisions? pushinfaders, I'm really sorry, for prolonging this debate. It might be best to move this post to the OT forum (where I was hoping it would be by now). Please accept my apologies for the continuance, as I know you are working hard for a resolution.

Yes, I think that the time has come to drop out of this thread. This could go on and on........ We aren't going to arrive at some final answer that we'll all agree upon. Let's just say that we disagree. Admins -- I wish you the best in your decision over this issue. Whatever that decision turns out to be.

DANG .. where's that Edit button? Congretationalists = Congregationalists

Attached Link: http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=3&aid=D80QI6FO0_story

In a 33 year long life filled with sermons and adventures and miracles you can find nothing else to portray? You can post any religious picture uyou want in the appropriate gallery... but don't violate the rules of the Forum while doing so, and don't argue for special and unique privileges. Some pigs are more equal than others? Bah! As for rewriting the TOS, why? That section is designed to keep out sadistic degrading ***horrifying*** images from a public gallery. The TOS is fine. The only problem is willful people pretending that the law doesn't not apply to them because they are somehow special and blessed and above earthly concerns such as justice and fairness. You say a crucifixion is not sadistic torture? Read this article (it's by religious scholars): ""Early Christians believed that Jesus was nailed to the cross," he said. "But there is absolutely no proof of this. The only skeleton of a crucified person ever recovered indicated that the two arms were tied to a crossbar, and two nails were used in either shinbone. There was no standard procedure in any of this. The only common feature in the different types of crucifixion is intense sadism."" So, the TOS bans images showing crucifixions for extremely good reasons. It is an act of torture, mutilation, and death and such scenes have no place here. Besides banning crucifixions, the rule also bans images of torture and images depicting sadism. No exceptions. Carolly

Amen, hauksdottir. ;)

There is nothing wrong with the picture, what is wrong is the TOS. The current TOS exclude art of Bosh, Dieric Bouts, most of rennaisance artists and of course most of Christian's religious art including Jesus! So the picture is against the TOS and must be removed, but this picture is ART!!!!, so please let the picture in the gallery and change the TOS!!!!!!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=592503

If you don't like Jesus crucifixion, here you have the Virgin and she is not against the TOS!

"Every person lost is one less mind to think with us....... "

Or in terms of the TOS... "one less mind to think LIKE us..."

I don't have an agenda here... I don't really care what the admins want to set their TOS to. What I >DO< expect is the TOS to be accurate and enforced. The admins should have the courage to be honest, to openly state their beliefs and their decision to use their judgment in place of the rules as they see fit. Just say it flat out...

"The administration of this site reserves the right to remove any post or image for any reason at their should discretion without notice or recourse. Some examples of reasons that may result in removal are...

• Torture
• Sexual activities
• Nudity
• Animals
• Underage humans (children)
• etc..."

Be adults. Be ethical. Have the courage to say it out loud so you can be honest with yourselves and us. Don't pretend the rules are absolute so you can later hide behind them to avoid having to stand up and say "this image goes because we don't like it, and this one stays because it fits with our religion".

"You're a brave woman."

Brave how? It's a nice image but it's not like she is going to be burned at the stake, attacked or harmed as a result of it. This isn't a martyr situation here, its a thread on a internet forum. I think applying the concept of bravery to the action diminished the concept and the act itself.

We aren't marching into Rome to support Jesus here, this was an image posted to a web site. I doesn't really fall under my concept of bravery. In fact, the response to the image itself has been overwhelmingly supportive and positive. Not one person here has called for it's removal - in fact almost everyone here wants the TOS to change to accurately reflect that it should stay.

"In my opinion the TOS does apply :-) "

You! You! You pro-pornography, anti Jesus agenda toting person! How dare you!

"This way, you still have the ban on extreme torture images that are better housed at Renderotica and other appropriate sites but religious and faith based images are exempted."

For this single event in this specific religion. Well, that would be amazingly prejudicial and myopic, but the admins would at least be open about their agenda.

"Therefore anyone who disagrees with your position, that is, doesnt know your position at the truth must not be a person with a bit of intelligence."

You must know that logic isn't going to fly here, right?

"I wonder why that could be? "

First answer: Because very few other religions have a depiction of torture as the central icon in their faith? I can guarantee you that if I posted a Voodoo ritual of a animal having it's throat slit it would be removed as a TOS violation. Or maybe an Inca ritual of a heart being torn out? Wanna take a guess how long that woudl stay?

Be honest, the only reason this image is here is because it fits with the faith of the admins.

Second answer: Because we are all part of the global Illuminatus conspiracy. But now that we have been found out we are going to disband.

"Agreed....They made the decision to keep the image up, now go in and modify the TOS. Hopefully that could end most of the debate......"

For me? It certainly would.

"On a side note, those who place more of a significance on the TOS rather the depiction of the greatest act of love from a man who represents the one and only true "religion" I pray for each and everyone one of you that you find Jesus."

Faith is a powerful thing, and I am glad that you have yours and I hope it brings you comfort. Personally? I think Jesus would have been looking for a little honesty among his followers, and the courage to state their beliefs outright in their... say, TOS :)

Whether this is the one "true" religion is a matter that is certainly open to question, though possibly not a question that is tolerated on this website apparently.

If this site is "The Christian graphic artists community" then someone needs to go change the banners cause all us non-believer heathens are under the impression we might actually matter here.

"Images that are "possible" TOS issues are brought up for discussion.. We don't play favorites..Images are looked at on a case by case basis.. "

Sorry, there is no wiggle room here like there usually is. Crucifixion is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as an act of torture. You don't have any room to "decide" or "evaluate" that, the TOS defined it. Now, you  want to make a judgment call on this? Fine ... then go change the TOS because it is no longer accurate. A little honesty is a good thing.

"No, most people would jump to defend the right of any other group to have their say. But they will just as readily attack anyone that dares to show Christianity in a positive way"

Your paranoia is showing. No one is demanding that the image be taken down, many ARE asking that the TOS accurately reflect the real rules. This isn't like a croup of people getting together to attack and destroy those who don't believe as they do... you know, it's not a Crusade or anything :)

"Wrong. This moderator would support the keeping of images important to any and all religions and lifestyles if they were of such great importance to those religions and lifestyles as the crucifixion is to the Christian faith."

Again, it is a simple matter to add "any image may be removed at the discretion of the administration without notice or justification." As it is not up to them to try and define what is and isn't central to other faiths it comes down to that anyway.

"If anyone has a problem with a pic of the crucified Christ....or any other pic for that matter, then don't look at it...."

That's a fine sentiment - of course the TOS has already decided that that isn't enough. The administration has decided (as is their right) to impose their own judgments on what is and is not acceptable rather than simply be an open forum (and I think that's a good thing).

It's really amazing to me that out of a simple concept to "either remove the image that violates the TOS or amend the TOS to accurately reflect the rules" we have now got a thread basically positing a conspiracy within the poser community to attack and defame the Christian faith.

Asking for honesty and accuracy in the TOS is not an attack, nor is it anti anything. It is completely reasonable and rational.

We aren't covering any new ground here folks..just arguing the same points over and over.. Feel free to resume this debate in the OT forum.