I've been sitting here for the past hour looking through the fractal gallery and it suddenly came to me. I had an epiphany, a moment of true insight and everything became clear to me, and I knew what I had to do. Something so radical, that it will never be recognized as a solution to a problem that plagues Renderosity...A curse so foul and corrupting that anyone who steps through the doors of this web-site is instantaneously infected! What is this diabolical curse that has been placed upon everyone that enters into this artists sanctuary? The total inability to rank any image they look at as anything other than 'Excellent!'. My radical solution to this supernatural phenomenon is... Delete the other nine rankings so that no-one can vote anything other than 'Excellent!'. I know!!!...I thought the same thing you are thinking right now! "Matt, you're a freaking genius!". Take away everyones ability to make a free conscious choice to vote with their heart and turn them into drones...Force them to vote 'Excellent!' every time they look at an image and hopefully after a few years of having no choice and no free will to do anything but comply, then, and just maybe then...People will complain about not having a choice and will want the staff at Renderosity to implement a ranking system that gives them the ability to mark images as they think they deserve... This was my epiphany. P.S. Since I don't ask for rankings on my images and I very rarely give them on other peoples images, and since I pretty much totally disagree with the whole ranking system...It really makes no difference to me at all...But writing this this sure did cure my boredom... Now i'm going down the pub...Seeya. Matt.

That's fantastic what you say, Matt, :-D!

Ok...I'm back from the pub and while I was down there I decided that I should start a campaign. I even thought of a name for this campaign... Artists Refusing to be Subjected to Excellents!!! ARSE for short. Told ya I was bored ;OD

LOL! ARSE that's perfect! I began to realize that any image I looked at I automatically ranked excellent, cause I like virtually everyones work. But it had just become so remote that it really didn't mean anything. I have recently begun not allowing rankings on my posts and somehow it feels good. Thanks for the interesting converse! Treena

:) I don't allow rankings either. I don't want people to feel obligated to leave an excellent ranking simply because that is what is expected. On the other hand, I have no problem whatsoever in leaving excellent rankings for pieces that I really appreciate. Which is a lot of them. :) Thanks for the humor regarding a topic that I know is probably sensitive for a lot of members. ~Elizabeth

Moving on slightly from this subject... I say above that "I pretty much totally disagree with the whole ranking system", but in theory I don't. I think it has the potential to be a great learning aid if it used wisely with constructive criticism. This subject has been brought up many times before in this forum, but it seems people are unwilling to critique an image unless someone specifically asks for it. I very rarely do this myself because it seems to be a sensitive subject for many people. A well intentioned critique can become something entirely different if it isn't worded appropriately. It just seems a shame to me that something that has the potential to improve this gallery for everyone is being ignored. In other galleries on this web-site people regularly offer their honest opinions on images and how they think they can be improved, but for some reason the Fractal gallery is reluctant to do this. Most people also seem to think that the Fractal gallery is more of a community than a lot of the other galleries, why? I'm sorry but if you can't give an honest opinion on someone's work (good or bad) then you cannot calls this a community. Ok...This is the part where I upset a LOT of people... Cliques! I hate them with a vengence! Groups of people that band together like herds of lemmings and jump blindly and willingly into the abyss. They dutifully laud EVERY image that their cohorts post, because God forbid that they shouldn't get THEIR quota of inane drivel on the next image they post! Harsh?!? Deal with it... Everyone succumbs to the clique mentality at some stage, but if they are truly lucky they realize how much it is holding them back and break free from it. In the last few months I have actually gone out of my way to NOT comment on peoples images. I have restricted myself to posting a maximum of 3 comments per day. Sometimes I may only post 2 or 1 or none, and sometimes I may go a week without posting any. The point is that by consciously limiting myself I am happy that I am only commenting on the images that I think truly deserve it. This doesn't mean that there aren't any other images that I would comment on, just that in my opinion these are the best. I'm not saying people shouldn't make friends...There are some people on this site that I consider good friends that have supported me through some bad times. Even though I consider them friends that doesn't mean I will comment on EVERY image they ever post. That is a ludicrous concept and would just belittle the work they do. It is impossible for someone to post, day after day, a constant stream of images that I love! Ok...This is getting a bit long winded now so I will sum it all up... Think about what you are commenting on and WHY you are commenting on it. Think about not giving and image an "Excellent!" if you don't believe it deserves it. Think about leaving "helpful comments for improvement" if you think they are valid...But most of all don't feel the need to comment on other peoples work just because you are afraid of not getting any comments the next time you upload an image. AMEN!!! This sermon was brought to you by Rev. Matt.

Oh come ON now Matt...take a chill pill.It's art for criminy's sake,not a popularity contest.This isnt high school or politics.This is the same ol crap rehashed for the umteenth time.. Why? What's the friggin point?You dont like cliques or rankings.Ok...got it.Umkay? Rate em or dont rate em and quit whining. ;p

You're right it is the same ol crap being rehashed for the umteenth time. But if it isn't a problem then why does it come up so often? Anyway...Since I posted my last comment I have decided that what is needed is someone to lead by example. Since no-one else is stepping up and strapping on a pair, I guess it's down to me...

Hi Matt
I understand your feelings on this, and I like your summation:

"Think about what you are commenting on and WHY you are commenting on it. Think about not giving and image an "Excellent!" if you don't believe it deserves it. Think about leaving "helpful comments for improvement" if you think they are valid...But most of all don't feel the need to comment on other peoples work just because you are afraid of not getting any comments the next time you upload an image."

It's a valid point.

For the other part, this is a community, as everyone here is more than willing to help each other out in some way or another. There is a lot of great information here, and it's a friendly atmosphere. You posted your opinions, and others have posted theirs. Isn't that a community?

My suggestions:
When uploading an image, specifically ask for honest opinions, rather than comments. If you don't agree with the rankings, simply don't use them. There are a number of members who don't allow them, and that is their option.

Cliques happen everywhere. It's a fact of life, and there is nothing to stop that.

I thank you for posting your thoughts on this, and I hope this discussion can remain peaceful.

Have a good night everyone.

Nick

Some people dwell on things too much... When it starts getting to you,take a break.Rethink it. Look at it from another angle.You know you love this place Matt. ;)

Quote - God forbid that they shouldn't get THEIR quota of inane drivel on the next image they post! Harsh?!? Deal with it...[unquote] I dont feel that peoples comments are "inane drivel". Sometimes I dont comment on art I like cause it's all been said already. Sometimes the design is great,but I dont care for the colors used...so Im suppose to state that?Why?Its just MY opinion.Each piece of art is that particular persons expression right?I,m not going to degrade that by my two cents.Know what I mean? If I say I think it's great,it's because it appeals to me.No other reason.Well,it might make you feel good to know others like your vision too. :)

I'm not saying all comments are inane drivel. I don't have a problem with people expressing their feelings about an image if they like it. I don't even have a problem with the over-used superlatives... Just don't go over the top! I'm surprised that some people in this gallery can still stand upright after the amount of bending over they do here daily. Personally, I blame the Americans. We all know how easily excited they are...

Hi Matt. As far as I'm aware, I'm not in any cliques :-), I don't comment on many images, and I do fight the temptation not to constructively criticise. I think the rankings as currently used are virtually meaningless, although the number of 'excellents' received is somewhat of an indicator as to how much an image affects people. I've frequently considered disallowing rankings on my own images. I for one am perfectly happy for you or anyone else to make suggestions about my images. Whether I agree with them or not, it will make no difference to my willingness to comment, rank or vote on the commentor's images. My one wish is that more people would vote for images, not because I'd like to see my images in the Hot 20, but because I'd like the Hot 20 to more accurately represent the best of recent posts. As it is, I get the impression that some of the cliques you talk about tend to dominate it, and stuff that really deserves to be there doesn't make it. It was only recently that there was a thread here in which people said they didn't have enough time to look at everything. Me too! I'd like to be able to use the Hot 20 knowing that I was less likely to miss anything worth seeing, but as it is, I can't honestly say I think it represents the best of what there is, not just my opinion of what the best is, but even the general consensus. So come on people, when you see something that you really think shouldn't be missed, vote for it. Commenting on it is less likely to attract attention to it, as it has to be found before your comment is seen. Best wishes, Simon.

I suppose I am one of the excitable Americans you mention. I do like to comment a lot. I feel that if I was attracted enough to the thumbnail to open the image, it has something good to say about it. I admit, I am enthusiastic about fractals. They speak to me on some very deep level that no other art has quite reached. I know how tentative I was as a beginner, and how comments and lots of study of other peoples work taught me so much about fractal construction. The beauty cannot shine as brightly if the technical matters are not attended to. One thing I do when I see a newbie struggling is to send them a private IM with a tip for handling their images that can improve things easily. It's usually a matter of antialiasing. At the moment, my life has gotten a bit complicated, so I am not commenting as much as I would like to. I do try to see almost all of the images posted here, but seldom get to other galleries for now. I guess this is just a little rambling to try to give you another perspective.

Huh! Here we go with the fallacious generalizations... (Personally, I blame the Americans. We all know how easily excited they are...) What????Who is this "we" you refer to?Hmmm? I...hear me...I think,unless of course you have a mouse in your pocket or MPD. ;) Spit it out Matt.Do "we" have underlying issues here?

Actually, I agree with some of what you say, Matt, and disagree with other parts. We all have our own opinions. ^_^ But I, personally, would like to know that there are some honest voices out there who WILL tell it like it is. Sometimes I find fault with my own work, but post it for reasons I explain when I upload. Sometimes I leave comments that ask questions, or mention things I'd like to see in an image. And sometimes I do it in private messages, not out there on the comment screen. I have to admit that I'm impressed enough by those who CAN produce awesome fractals to gush over it. LOL I have NO problem admitting that at all.

I have been, in the last few images I've uploaded, beginning to move away from the ranking system for my own work. When I was brand new here, and had never done a fractal before, then I was more interested in it. And I'm not saying I'll NEVER ask for a ranking... just that I do so less these days.

All babble aside, if you'd ever like to comment on an image of mine with constructive criticism, I welcome it. As I do from anyone else. In fact, I'd appreciate it. If I'm doing something that grates, by all means, mention it!!

But just remember... don't let this place get to you enough to make you nuts. LOL That IS one thing I've learned over the years not to do.

^_^

Kat

There ya go, getting all excited again!!! It's a fact of life...Americans are easily excitable. I call it the Yank Gene, because I believe it has passed down from generation to generation. It doesn't make you bad people, just a little...hyper. I don't have any 'underlying issues' with Americans...I was married to one for 10 years. Of course, eventually I had to divorce her because she was always getting over-excited...(that last part was a joke). As for fallacious generalizations...Isn't it the Americans that keep going on about ALL Brits having bad teeth? Maybe ya wanna photo of me pearly whites? ;O)

LMAO! I'm not getting excited and no,I dont think all the British have bad teeth! Thats too funny. ;) My God! I'm from West Virginia sweetheart! Ever see a hillbilly portrayed as a semi-toothless,moonshine chuggin inbreed? Haha! I have all my teeth too btw and Im not drunk or married to my cousin. I dont recall a "yank gene" in biology class.Musta been sleepin in class that day! Haha! I am pretty sure my ancestors came over here on a boat from England,you nut. (still laughing) Anywho...what were we yakkin about...oh yeah.Ratings!! LOL!

I'm an American, and yes I am easily excited~ that and my really short attention span go hand-in-hand. grin And I have no problem with either. Being easily excited makes life fun! You should see me when I get anything in the mail.... :)

Getting back on topic... Simon, the vote thing is something that I never considered because I hardly ever look at the Hot 20. I will try to use more votes when I think they are deserved in future. Vivian, newbies are a special case and need handling carefully if they're not to be sent running for cover. It can be very intimidating and I think everyone knows from personal experience how much courage it takes to post that very first image. When do they stop becoming newbies and become oldbies though? Kat, maybe you should think about joining the ARSE campaign, i'm gonna see if I can get a petition started. LOL. Matt.

LOL Well, I have to admit I HAVE been called something similar to that before.... ^_~

I guess i am one of those people who can find something i like about most images. It may only be the colours, or the lighting, but ill comment on that. If someone has gone to the trouble to put their best effort into a work, and proudly put it up for display, then who am i to concentrate on the negative, rather than the positive sides of it? If i dont like something about the piece, i just dont mention it. It may be that the artist likes it the way it is, and even though i may not, thats only my opinion.
I dont mind offering suggestions or an opinion about change, but unless the artist has stated that theyre not satisfied with the image & asked for improvements, then i dont usually feel comfortable doing that ( again, this is just me personally )
Rankings i rarely do unless a fractal really 'speaks' to me, and i havent used rankings on my own work for ages. I would rather see someone comment in a little depth about why or why not they dont like one of my fractals, rather than say 'wonderful' and hit the excellent button cos they feel like they have to.
I like getting comments about changes and i also like people offering suggestions or improvements ( in a constructive way, which is the key ) The only times i have really recieved those kinds of comments however, are when i have asked for them.
On my own work, dont be afraid to offer a suggestive change if you feel like you want to. Seeing our art through other peoples eyes, and trying out others opinions can only help the learning curve.

As for cliques, i cant comment on that, im really a ghost around here lately lol.
I dont seem to find the time to be able to look through the galleries lately, which is a shame

I don't care about the numbers. I seldom look at the hot20 (and notice that it says 'hot', not 'top' or 'best'). I don't base my viewing of images by how many other people have looked at them or what their rank is. I will often look at an image even if it has a terrible thumbnail, and be surprised to find something quite nice. I guess what I am coming down to is that it is possible to enjoy this site as a place to share art. I love fractals. I love posting my fractals for others to see. I love seeing the fractals that others make. It's interesting to me that I see things that I would never attempt to do, but that I still find attractive to view. I will go on making images that please me, not for whatever is popular. Just my $.02. :)

Amen to that tresamie!! Guess that means you arent interested in being an ARSE? Me either! LMAO!

Well, I just wrote up a nice long reply and it didn't take, so I'll try it again, shorter this time. I have some pretty strong feelings about this topic. It's one of the reasons that I left. The rankings are worthless unless your goal is to get into the highest gallery. The comments are good as long as they are given the proper perspective. Some of us need to divide our comment numbers by a popularity factor of 2 or 3 to get a realistic comparison with the other images here. For me, the comments became personally bad. I started to think that I was something that I wasn't. I would take 1 honest criticism over 50 of the other kind. By the way, I still feel like a flake when I put an image here. I made such a stink when I left. I feel like I should appologize for something, I am just not sure what. I can tell fairly quickly if an image is worth while. It only takes a couple of hours, a day at the most, then I figure I can delete it, which is what I have been doing, except the last couple of images. It works well for me to do that. Keith

I still cannot grasp where all the turmoil over the ratings is coming from...When Matt got artist of the month and deleted his entire gallery,I scratched my head as I also did when Keith deleted his gallery. I was terribly sorry to see these "top" artists IMHO get so upset as to remove their wonderful visions from our collective site. Matt,when I asked about "underlying issues" I wasnt referring to you having a problem with Americans... what I meant was what Keith refers to here: "I started to think that I was something that I wasn't." Above excellent?If excellent is dealt out so freely that it means nothing,and no one critiques your work then that must mean your work is perfect in all aspects and you are a "god/goddess" when it comes to fractals? Uh...noooo,thats surely not it.Ego isnt a problem with the artistic community...right? :) Then possibly the people that view/rank/comment on your work dont know enough about the technical aspect of fractals to notice a flaw here and there? Maybe some... Or maybe you are your own worst critic.I know that applies to me. Ive noticed the people that seem to know the most about fractals seldom comment on ANYONES work.Why is that?? The people that complain about ratings and the lack of constructive criticism are surely not participating in rating excellents to undeserving art and are taking the time to insert constructive criticism into comment boxes everywhere they feel its needed....right? Maybe the former,but not the latter that Ive noticed.

Alison, Ouch, and it's a deserved slap, but only to a point. I have offered constructive criticism, but not very often. It's too much work and I am lazy. When I do it's usually only with people who I consider friends, people that I know. I have also given suggestions to obvious beginners. It's an uncomfortable feeling to be critical. It's hard to do. I just wish that the fractal gallery would get over that. There could be so much more learning here if we could. By the way, I like to listen to my daughter. She's not an artist and know very little about fractals but I value her opinion as an viewer of my art. You don't need to be a master to be helpful.

I've never started to think I was something i'm not. I've always known exactly what I am... Brusque, overbearing, sometimes abusive with a tendency to say exactly what's on my mind without caring if it upsets anyone. The perfect person to leave constructive criticism!

LOL! Keith,that really wasnt meant to be a slap! Im glad you are posting again.I enjoy your fractals alot. It was just my little observation of some of the goings on around here. I left out of here a while myself (with no fanfare) because I found myself getting bored with fractals and bewildered with all the hullabaloo. Guess I'll stay bewildered but thats ok I guess. :)

Just my 2 cents here. I enjoy doing up fractals. Much more than I like working in Bryce OR Poser (shhhh!) There are so many many variables with fractals ad infinity!

Personally, it doesn't bother me to look at my "views" or Ratings- altho I have now turned my Rating button off, because it saves time for the viewer and I feel their comments alone tell the whole story for a given image.

As far as the "Hot20" is concerned, I just made the list today after many months of uploading with people saying "Wonderful, Beautiful..etc" and all the other great comments we've all grown to love, on my previous uploads since Nov of last year. Maybe I didn't deserve it until now...don't know for sure...but it still feels good anyway.:-)

hugs to all
Helen

Haven't had time to spend much time here lately-missed a lot but this one grabbed me. As a former art teacher I have to wonder about so much emphasis on what one "likes". Personal preferences are just that, not indicators of the quality of a work. It is essential to be able to recognize merit in art that is totally outside one's preferences. I often found the best way to foster better performance in students was to point out what they had done RIGHT rather than picking at what was "wrong". Invariably they would begin to make their own comments on what they could have done better. The next thing I taught them was that an artist MUST develop a thick skin, judge their work on their own standards - CREATE for themselves alone, ignor effusive flattery and degrading remarks alike, value opinions only from those who have earned respect. Commercial contracts are more about the client's ego than good art, so unless one is prepared to turn out whatever someone else wants, don't go commercial. Ratings and statistics are commercial trappings-and just as superficial. Recognition by one's peers is nice, but anyone who bases their self worth on it might benefit from a session with Dr. Phil. So much for my soapbox. Now a suggestion: what about starting a technique workshop, like the challenges except that images could be submitted anonymously for the purpose of picking them apart. A thread could contain opinions on how others would have managed the subject, colors, lighting, presentation, etc. No need to feel uncomfortable expressing and honest opinion because it will have been solicited. It would be useful to submit images one knows has problems, or doesn't like. New artists could find the process enlightening. I know I would be willing to submit such work and look forward to proposed solutions. Anyone who is uncomfortable with being criticized need not participate. It could foster quite an exchange of information. Just a thought. BTW Native Americans do not carry the "Yank gene". Donna

Well written, Donna. I think that what you are after here is like a WIP thing? Voluntarily putting up ones work for their peers to critique before they submit it to their gallery. Am I correct here in this assumption?

That's the idea, but more people might participate if posting could be anonymous. Personally, I wouldn't care if my name was on it or not, but it might make some a bit more comfortable so more likely to post. I firmly believe the best way to critique is to point out a person's strengths, then look for ways to bring the rest of their technique up to the same level. I'd like to look for ways to break the negative associations with criticism. Donna

I don't think there's any great harm in ratings, votes and "wonderful" comments, as long as you don't take them seriously. They spread a little pleasure in a perfectly safe and legal way. As to "constructive criticism", well there's nothing more annoying than getting it from someone you don't know or whose work you don't respect. And let's face it, there's no point trying to turn this place into a serious art forum--not with all those naked plastic ladies around! PS as an Aussie I have issues with both Yanks and Poms.

Mark, you should use all primary colors next time; Peapodgirl, some poser babes would go down a treat amongst the flowers; Terry, they all look upside down to me, and could do with gamma of 3.5; Donna, whatever that je ne sais quois is, it needs 47% more of it; Garth, your colors would be improved if you used totally different ones that didn't suck. Nope. Leaving questions of personal taste and style out of it, there are still difficulties with offering technical advice. It could be prefaced with "In case that XXX look isn't exactly what you intended..." and still be found annoying for various reasons. While I'm comfortable with constructive criticism and personal opinions, I also don't think this is an ideal forum for it. However, if posters ask for specific suggestions, people will be more likely to respond accordingly, as sometimes happens. Regards, Garth

So the point is, nothing can be all things to all people. Some take this place and comments/ratings way too seriously, some not at all, and most are somewhere between. The thing I really take issue with is the assumption that opinions aren't honest if they're "too" positive, and criticism (or honesty) requires pointing out something "wrong". Yes, grandmothers often tend to concentrate on the encouraging side. Guilty. As for plastic naked women-reminds me of the time I caught my son with his sister's Barbie doll and a magic marker, adding the missing parts. I hate to think what he would have done with Poser! Some things don't change. Keith-I'll be sure to increase that je ne sais quois. Mark-mixed heritage gives me an issue with ancestors who sided with the British on Thursday, today's Friday so it's not being able to get a pint of Harvey's Best Bitter in the US. Donna

Sorry guys, I know this is supposed to be a serious topic, but I find myself laughing hysterically at some of the above posts, and saying that ever-so-wonderful and annoying phrase~ "can't we all just get along?"