I have an issue I'd like to discuss, namely the user profile and admins, and bans. Why do they never get erased or reset ? I am currently on my last warning here - I got a slap in 2002 when I asked Spike to give me one, I was brawling in the OT with Alleycat. I got another one a month ago for the creative use of the word fuckwit in the OT in a thread with Geep Lesson learned: Spinner shouldnt be let loose in the OT and I do generally stay out of it. However, if you look at the time-span between warnings, that averages about one a year. So I guess I'll get my next, and final slap for ToS violation (being rude to fellow rendo-ites)in the beginning of 2005. Now - I have been a member here since early 2001 - and before that I had a different nick. I spend money in the store when I see something I like, I generally behave myself, and am a fairly normal member of the community who sometimes just gets bouts of fuckwit-itis. I bet the majority of members are just like me. So - what is the reason for rendo not to i.e reset the ToS violation list on a yearly basis ? It's not like you'll lose previous data or encourage people to act in a manner not in compliance with the ToS ? If someone is a major pain in the ass, you can always ban anyway ? Most places I know of wipe the slate with regular intervals. It is law here, actually (and dont give me that about following the laws in Tennessee - it's an example, not a demand :-)) I am not asking for my slate to be wiped right now - I am asking why it never gets reset. ~S

I suppose that's a reasonable enough question which although I can't personally answer at the moment, I'm sure someone can (Like Spike maybe, ah..Spike?) In the state I live (in a different country to the U.S.A so I guess this is just another example of what you are refering to) 3 years after a driving offense (such as a minor speeding or traffic violation) that particular transgression gets wiped and demerit points against your drivers licence are restored. Of course there are some (more serious) transgressions that "stick" so to speak, and I would dare say some transgressions here might fall into that basket, but perhaps not all.

I have 2 warning as well, but they are very old, way over a year, and I would like them wiped as well, not that I am planning on going on a flame binge or anything though.

I think that's a pretty reasonable request. I know people who have had problems during a certain period, and been wondeful contributors to the community the rest of the time. I wouldn't want to find someone had been banned for things that happened a year apart. That isn't a persistence of bad behavior but just a loss of temper here and there, which happens to many of us because we get pushed to react by other people around here who get pleasure out of making lives miserable for no particularly good reason. I hope the adminstrators consider a time limit on the penalities...it makes good sense to me.

What means fuckwit?

stommeling ~S

Ok ... what is stommeling, I cannot find that in my dictionary either. If that is such a bad word then I need to know ;-).

fuckwit, means like dummy-stupid, that is my interpritation of it, it has a little more deeper meaning but that is close. stommeling = ?

I thought it meant a male whose brain was basically in his pants. Live and learn. ;) I haven't a clue about the other one.

Sorry, Linguistc error, I thought Punto was Dutch. But O'death's interpretation si close enough. Depp is probably closest in German... ~S

So, a fool, more or less? Who says the forums aren't educational?

:)

Before we get any more eudcational, I'd really like to know my potential ban-options, though ;-) ~S

And it would also be considered a personal attack. I never got a black mark for fighting though, one was for an image that was of a handycapped person, that I am sure you have all seen dealing with fighting on the internet, and the special olympics, the mod that warned me knew where I was comoing from and was in agreement but said that that type of derogitory imagry was a violation, and the other was also for an image in the gallery of a woman giving birth, some people thought that since the baby was blueish that it was dead, but having just had a new born at the time I can assure you that they do infact come out blue cause the lack of o2 in the womb, and was suspended for that as well. I have tried to get the marks off my name, and the mod I talked to recently said they didn't have access to that info so I dropped it.

Yes, it could be seen as a personal attack - and I have no problem with that - it was, because I got fed up with ignorance. I just dont think that calling someone a fuckwit in 2004 should have any bearings on anything I may or may not say in 2007, to put it into a perspective. As an example, the ToS has changed at least three times, as far as I -remember- top off my head since my first warning. Should new changes in specific areas of ToS affect warning status, for instance ? I havent seen those images, Odeath, so I can't comment on that, but if the ToS changes, that should have some effect on artistic or (some) verbiage Again - I want to raise the question and invite to a fairly civilsed discussion - I am not after slamming anyone, or attacking the PtB; I can misbehave to my hearts content elsewhere ;-) ~S

Nothing like a yahoo chat room to take yoru frustrations out on LOL. Yeah I totally agree with what you are saying, as I havn't spouted off in quite some time, I feel that my record should be wiped clean as well. I no longer feel the need to be contrivertial (sic) I rarly post to the gallery anymore, just cause they get buried so fast, and I tend to try and bypass the flame wars here, but on that slim chance that I say something wrong, I would get the boot and I do not want that happening either. AFAIK, there is noremoving of the black marks against our names. You may want to IM Clint directly about this though, I was going to but meh!, I am lazy :)

I think anyone who is an administrator (Spike, ClintH, DeeMarie, etc.) could facilitate with the removal of black marks against names if all the administrators, and powers that be, agree that it should be done.

thing is, Spike has already stated that warnings will not be removed.. so even if you gain 2 over a period of 5 years... the 3rd will get you banned. fair? nope.

I think that's a really nice thought, dialyn, but I can see one major flaw, and that is that you are making the process, should it ever be implemented, people dependent. Making a process people-dependent, opens for bias, and that is -begging- for trouble, you know as well as I which kind of witchhunt threads that could generate, and there would always be a possibility that it'd be with a reason. ( I work as a project manager - if there is something I know, it's process and people ;-)) I'd like to propose a generic reset every year or other year - If the admins are open for that, I have some additional thoughts on how to implement it. ~S

Oh, and I IM'd Clint ~S

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1639517&Reply=1642063#29

right.. quote Spike - from the post at the time this policy was inflicted on us all '1. How can you find out how many warnings etc. you are at? Ask an admin. 2. Do warnings expire? No 3. If so, after how long? See #2 4. What are the appeal abilities? Contact admin. 5. What if you're banned and need access to your past purchases? Contact store@renderosity.com. We will work with the previous buyer to get the products to them as needed. 6. What if you need access to past purchases because of copyright infringements done by others? Contact store@renderosity.com. We will work with the previous buyer to get the products to them as needed. 7. What if you're a banned merchant- what happens to your money? Any outstanding balances are sent to the merchant on the next payment cycle. 8. What if you're a banned merchant- does your store get closed ASAP? Yes. 9. Can you get updates out to those that purchased from you? Not through the site. However, if you have a list of buyers and their contact info, you can do this on your own. Afterall, what would be the point of banning a member if they were allowed to come right back? 10. Does your gallery get deleted ASAP, or do you actually have to request that? Yes 11. Do all of your posts get deleted? No (only the ones that are outside of the TOS will be removed)'

I think there is always a possibility for change. And I will keep optimistic that a change in the policy is possible when the request is reasonable. And I'm not known for my optimism. And you all can laugh at me, if you like, but I will still believe that. There were no doubt reasons the policy was written the way it was. That doesn't mean it can't be rewritten to allow for the fact that people can change. And people do. We're talking about incidents which were more a moment of temper than persistent bad behavior. I would hope some allowance would be made for them. Perhaps, given time and reasoned requests, they will. That's about all I can say on that. Take care all. :)

fuckwit Noun. An idiot English slang and colloquialisms used in the United Kingdom ...I love my WordWeb SWAMP

Dialyn - I interpreted what you said as all admins and mods having to agree on something like this on a per-person basis. And I saw that as unwieldy and people-dependent. Khai - leave former grievances and threads out of this please. I am not after a Spike bashing or a rendo-bad, any other site good kinda shitfight, ok ? I have a request. It's a reasonable one. The thread you are referring to was in connection with a change of ToS, and the way you are phrasing your current comments are detrimental to that request. ~S

erm excuse me? do not accuse me of something I have not done. the above is the offical policy as stated before. I am NOT bashing spike. He made the announcement that this is policy. I thought you and others had not seen it, therefore I brought your attention to it, nothing more. please keep your facts straight and please do not accuse me of things I have not done.

Not going to go there - if you see what I say as an accusation, so be it, bash it out with me in a new thread or over IM. I have seen the thread in question - several sites carried the URL. Now, moving on, I IM'd Spike about this thread as well - but I see there are not many admins online now. ~S

No - no! Make it entertaining! Let the 2-strikers plead their case in a separate forum and have their fellow members vote their reprieve up or down. All kinds of fun to be had there. (hmmm... I think I'm kidding, ...but not really sure)

If I were feeling mean-spirited I'd say that the "never resetting" warnings is a sign of either lazy or bad programming (or possibly a poorly throught-thru site policy) but I'm not. Sooooo I'd guess that banishment for life from Renderosity is just one of those unpardonable things ;)

Thats actually cool - we could have two-warning flame-fests in an arena and the victor could get a reset. Alternately, Lundqvist could add some story-bilines about this in his work };-) However, I still do want to know the why of a no reset, people :-) ~S

well I do not know about the .ez format but I am sure that it is a simple ( well as simple as data drivin can be ) sql statement that could reset the black marks.

lol

'We're talking about incidents which were more a moment of temper than persistent bad behavior. I would hope some allowance would be made for them.'

That's a perfectly reasonable point dialyn and I wonder if the reason it is not being considered by the PTB has more to do with issues of control rather than trying to implement a reasonable and fair policy.

If you can get somebody to the point of having two indelible marks against them you have them on a very short leash. If you can succeed in achieving this with a large number of members you'll have a pretty docile crowd I would think.

This is worse than being in school or committed of crime for heavens sake...at least there after a certain period of time all is forgiven.....

Could we please at least wait until we get some kind of answer from admin regarding whether this issue is going to be looked at or not? This thread seems to be veering away from spinner's original question, which is in danger of being lost in "past greivances" and "lets knock Renderosity" type replies, it seems to me...

I agree with PC. I specifically asked and stated this --not-- be done in post #24. Respect that please ? ~S

I think it'd be reasonable to have a mark last for 6 months, then be cleared - assuming no new mark is added to it. In other words, someone gets a mark in March and goes through September (six months later) without incurring further violations, the mark is wiped. The slate is clean. Or, someone gets a mark in March, gets another in August of the same year, he's going to have to wait until February of the next year (6 months past the second mark) to have both marks cleared. Just tossing in that idea of one arrangement that might be considered.

Thanks spinner and odeathoflife for explaining. I guess Flachwichser is a good translation ;-). But anyway, back to the topic: I think Varian's suggestion is very good. Just imagine someone had a bad time three years ago and recieved 2 warnings and behaved since then and now makes one mistake and gets kicked completly. Don't think that is fair. If someone is behaving and does not make trouble anymore the old mistakes should be forgiven and the warnings removed after a period of probation.

Heh Spinner, @ #29: Nobody can accuse my stuff of being "work", I wish it were :) Expulsion wars: Two flamers enter and only only one leaves. Then the other leaves a bit later...

This seems like a viable idea, and I like Varian's suggestion as well.

The kicker is that this could actually be programmed, requiring a little investment in coding then let it run for itself, you would not need any human intervention at all when put in place.

I think it would also be reasonable to see an indicator of some sort on your account page of how many warnings you have against you vs. having to request it from an Admin/Mod. IMHO, it should have the date/time of the infraction, the reason, and the Admin/Mod who initiated it, as well.

two flamers enter.. one flamer leaves.. two flamers enter.. one flamer leaves.. two flamers enter.. one flamer leaves.. two flamers enter.. one flamer leaves.. sorry had to (mad max-that thunderdome one)

.

I for one think Spinner is asking a reasonable question too...just wondering when an answer is going to be forthcoming, as we all seem to be wanting to know as well.. ~Jani { who wants to throw some of her own questions out there, but who doesn't want to derail the thread anymore than it is already}

Oh go ahead and derail it for a while. Gotta have something to read till someone comes in on Monday. :)

I agree with wiping the slate clean once in a while. Seems silly to have a mark hanging over the head for the creative use of the word "dufflebag" when we have members openly accusing newbies of warez without facts or benefit of trial for asking a simple question. It's a big site so personal attention to each and every situation could take too much time. Something in the programing makes a lot of sense.

Ok, I can't stand it..:D Some of the reasons Spinner mentioned for her warnings has got me curious... I am currently on my last warning here - I got a slap in 2002 when I asked Spike to give me one, I was brawling in the OT with Alleycat. I got another one a month ago for the creative use of the word fuckwit in the OT in a thread with Geep Now, there are members here who we all know that stir the pot all the time...at 'every opportunity'..and we all know..{including the admins and mods} that these members do these things, and get heated flame fests going on purpose...using all manner of crude, rude, obscene language..my question is..why are these members not getting warnings like Spinner did..and if they are..it would seem to me, by the frequency of these members posts..they should have been banned ages ago... Why is this not the case?? There...got that off my chest. Apologies to Spinner for derailing her thread further..but couldn't stand not asking at an opportune moment.

You'll find the generic shitstirrer element on any site, as you know, since you've been a mod ? As long as they stay within ToS - you can get pissed at them, but you dont slap them for being fuckwits ( that word again... Sorry, but I love it, even my new years resolution in 2002 was very Bridget: No more Fuckwits) ), as they are perfectly free to express themselves as they want to. Thats why we have so few who want to play with us in the RFI - we -do- slap them };-) So - now that that's cleared up,, keep it on track - entertainment can be found in the Poser forum, the modeling forum,or you can welcome Verdie back in the VT. Or you can go brawl in the OT but I'll pass this time, thank you };-) Dufflebag... - I was in that thread... Oops? ~S

I also say that penalty points should be programmed to disappear after a while. I see no justice in someone receiving an infinite amount of punishment for a finite amount of sin. The best horse may stumble some day.

---

"stommeling" is Dutch for "blockhead".

It should also be noted that along with warnings for conducting personal attacks against other members you can also recieve a (non-expiring) warning for posting an image that is deemed in violation of the TOS as well.

It's one thing that a matter of judgement decides if an image is banned or not but quite another if a member is banned as a result of that same judgement.

"Dufflebag... - I was in that thread... Oops?" :) Cool. It's historic (hysteric?) by now. :)

Sure, I'll get involved in certain debates -- if it's a topic that I feel strongly about. And if I think that there is some "good" that I can actually accomplish through the debate.

However, 99% of on-line disagreements are a complete waste of time. Except, perhaps, for the entertainment value which one derives from the act of argument itself. Or the pleasure which one derives from voyuerism, for lurkers.

As for the central topic of this thread -- I would say that it's up to the admins. This is their site, and they can run it in any manner which they choose.

And one is free to attempt to persuade the admins to wipe out one's past record.

However, as in so many other cases, I don't think that this is an issue which allows for a "one size fits all" type of solution.

Think of the matter this way: one individual with "two black marks" can make a genuine effort to redeem themselves -- and thus, they might deserve a second chance. Whereas another individual with "two black marks" might be hovering on the border at all times, just waiting for the chance to strike again. Such a person should likely not have their record cleared. They are too likely to pull the same type of stunt again.

The admins should allow themselves some room for individual judgements on a case-by-case basis. The admins need to have some leeway for discretionary actions.

But I would say this: I don't think that the bad marks on one's record should be totally without appeal. I believe that one should be able to PRIVATELY make one's case for leniency. With the emphasis of understanding placed upon the word "private". A private appeal. Without a public scrap.

Not that I am criticizing spinner's handling of this issue: I am not. I believe that he has brought this subject up in a perfectly reasonable manner.

And, unlike some others, I believe that the admins here will come up with a workable solution. They almost always do.

It's just that one can never please everyone. Nor should one try to. It's a wasted effort.

Any system will have a minority of system abusers, one size never fits all. That's life. Most people find workarounds :-) I am also fully aware that rendo runs it's site as it wishes; And I dont have much of an issue with that, I am genreally anti-idiot and anti-shitstirrer, not anti-rendo. I am an adult; I ask questions in a civilised manner, and I don't cry or go on a posting binge about the unfairness of it all when the question gets a negative response. Ideally, as I have said before, a process could be implemented, I have little faith in appeals to overworked admins, becuase they could be deluged, and it'd open for mentioned posting binges. Varian had an excellent idea. By having a process, you eliminate a great deal of the "shitlist" factor, and I also think that enough mods and coordinators are around to raise red flags, should need be. Lets see what they say tomorrow or Tuesday - I don't think there will be any input from admin level before that ~S

"Posting binges" in and of themselves should represent a violation of the appeals process.

But, once again......on a case-by-case basis.

Some speeders get off with a warning: others have the book thrown at them.

It all depends upon the seriousness of the violation in question.

And, usually, the perps that scream "foul!" the loudest are those with the greatest fault. Normally, it's not hard to tell the difference.