heyas; okay, on a less personal note... so now what are edgenet's plans for the future of renderosity.com? what diretion are we gonna go in? how do you plan to recoup the losses that running this site generates? i'm sure the community would like to know. thanks :)

Operating Renderosity as an R&D test-bed does create some value for EdgeNet, but not nearly as much as some have implied. Our EASE business is young and really just starting to turn the corner itself. Frankly, we don't have the resources to dedicate to a complete over-haul of the site if we wanted to at the moment. Clearly the economic outcome of that sort of investment is questionable given the current climate. The good news is I think the site is pretty well tuned to serve the needs of the community. The site continues to attract about 100 new members per day even with the current situation so something is working. The recent events here make me shake my head. EdgeNet is a business which seeks to make money by serving the needs of customers. I concede that point. Currently we're not doing too great operating Renderosity as a business. This site currently consumes a dedicated T1 which about $1,500 per month. The server required to run the site costs about $10,000 and is still occassionally overwhelmed, it requires the frequent attention of myself and our sys admins. It does a reasonably good job of servicing the community and yet a good portion of the community would probably like to see us go out of business. The statements of some uninformed members who do not know the full history and the extent of EdgeNet's contributions are particularly disheartening. For some of the newer members, EdgeNet expended all the software development costs to build this site. Roy Riggs is an extremely talented developer who worked for EdgeNet and he was allowed to spend much of his time working on this site because it was a personal interest and paralleled EdgeNet's goals of building the Bondware community product and underlying EASE platform. The result is a special piece of software which will be very difficult and expensive for anyone to replicate regardless of statements to the contrary. To offset some of the expenses of running the site, Roy & I convinced Jack to work with us to launch the Online Store. Again, EdgeNet absorbed all the software development costs which the folks with software backgrounds know is not cheap. The Online Store has the potential to fund the site if embraced by the members. EdgeNet is not a company of artists, but have we invested money, time, and energy to serve the needs of artists? I think the answer is yes. Should EdgeNet benefit from that? Should the community feel any obligation or loyalty as a result of that? You decide. To get back to your question, EdgeNet plans to setup an environment on Renderosity that is governed by the will of the majority of the members. This will happen with member elected moderators, etc. If the community embraces this plan, EdgeNet will continue to participate and grow the community by creating software and providing other resources. If on the other hand, the community members choose not to support the site, not to share their creativity with other members thru this site, not to buy or sell products thru the Online Store, then EdgeNet cannot bear the cost of running this site indefinitely. EdgeNet will have to move on and the community lose a once great resource. Regards, Tim

"EdgeNet will have to move on and the community lose a once great resource." I get the feeling from edgenet's statement that they are trying hard to be a community group, we'll get to vote on the new moderators, it's up to us to keep the site afloat etc... but where were these community desisions when Edgenet locked out Jack and Ed? It wasn't up to "us" to let Jack and Ed go... did I miss that vote some where? I have no grudge against Edgenet, I just know that a man named Jack Kammerer went out of his way to help out a site called the 3D Comic Collective. With Jack, I know I'm dealing with an artist, a person who has a passion for what he does, not for what kind of profit he'll turn. I have a feeling that the nomadic tribe once called "Renderosity" will turn up again... like a Phoenix from the ashes, this time better then ever. I also won't be surprised if it happens again, and again... after all, history tends to repeat itself. Just my .02 and my own humble opinion. Doug

Well said Tim. Peace and Creativity Chris

Honestly I think people just panic when change happens. I've seen this type of reaction before on many other forum based sites. I will give this new management a chance like I have for other sites. People must understand that business is business , to maintain the speed and vastness of this site does take money and no one here is sending you any so...you gotta do what you gotta do. I personally feel that people took offense to Ed and Jack getting canned. They were a facet of this site and many took akin to their leadership. To lose them appeared to be a hostile take over if you will. And as you know hostility envokes negativity for the most part. I love Renderosity , being a member for the last year , and I DO share the fears many have that this gem of a site will be lost. I do also have the optimisim that things will get better and possibly surpass what the site is currently. If we all don't at least give this site a chance in it's rebirth then why do we come here at all? I love Jack and Ed but I don't come here for them , I come for the community as a whole and what their combined creativity brings to this site. I hope I don't get flamed for all this but at least give it a chance to see what develops.

This will be my last post ever in renderosity, so pay a ttention. Its very sad when a corp interest go over the art interests... Edgenet has just show that all what they care about is their bussines, not the future of the comunity... Renderosity will e no more a comunity, its now a bussines, a small part of a corporation... and guess what people, i dont wanna be in a corporation. They say "we well never sell the database as long as we manage the site" wich really means "if someone wants to pay $100, 000, will get a site, a comunity and a 28,000 emails dbase, what a bargain!!!!" I dont want to be part of this bargain... As an artist, i think freedom is the most important thing u can have, as a hacker i know very well that freedom and corps have nothing in common, as a Dog, i know what being loyal means... Jack, Ed and others brougt us here, with their leadership renderosity became what is now, so if they r going somewhere else, i will follow them. Godd Bye Renderosity, hope u all anjoy the new corporative management. In case u dont... well, all of u know the address of renderotica rite? CIAO.

Look, I'm not going to say this twice... just keep the site as it is and make it easy for me to find what I'm looking for. Get the picture. Also, somebody tell me what the new owners do before I have to hurt myself? Fist, out.

Edgenet aren't "new" owners. They've been the owners for at least a year. I don't know if they were the owners back when Willow et al were maintaining the site. I think the greatest amount of confusion and animosity is created from Edgenet's silence when things are going great. We only hear about them when they have to defend themselves. It would be nice, for instance, if Edgenet would put a little something on their corporate page about Renderosity as a sign that this site really does mean something to them. Jack and Ed may have been the voice of Renderosity but to what capacity? Were they being paid by Edgenet? I doubt it. As far as I know, they were willing (and at the end, overzealous) volunteers--in the same way that I am the voluntary (and unpaid) voice, moderator, and den-mommy of Bryce4all. If in the future I leave my post at Bryce4all, I won't start an email campaign to smear the reputation of The Internet Eye (the real owner of the site). Both times that there has been a change of hands at Renderosity a holy war has started among a small group of artists who are loyal to the moderator and not to the community or site as a whole. We should be extremely grateful for the time and effort that has been put into creating, maintaining, and modifying this site. OK. I've said my peace. =-)

Rico, Remove your content yourself. When you're finished let us know and we can remove your membership as well. -Jeff H.

It seems pretty simple to me. Anyone who isn't happy with Edgenet running and funding the place can go out and buy a server and T1 and set up their own site and pay for it themselves. It's a "free" world after all. Myself, I'll keep visiting this and other sites and be glad that someone other than me is putting up the money.

Exactly. I've been very happy with this wonderful and free service. The only "spam" I've gotten from the site has been for discounts at Zygote and they have been very good deals. I don't always purchase the Zygote goodies but I do like to know that there is something new at Zygote.

JeffH, I think Rico is talking about being safe that his work can not be restored from a server backup. I am not an expert in backup software, but I don't think you can selectively remove a individual file from a backup, but a web site can issue a statement that the work of x-user will not be displayed or used by the site in any way. I think that is what concerns a lot of the members/former members (etc). They want to make sure their art is not used without their permission.

That's why I slap a big ol' copyright, the date and my name at the bottom of very image I make. I've yet to see someone using my images without my permission even with posting it here and on less secure places like alt.binaries.3d.bryce . If I were afraid of my artworking being pirated I wouldn't post it on the internet.

This is just my .02, but here goes: This site is of immense value in both a monetary and aesthetic sense. It provides a living community to digital artists, and at the same time, allows a company to testbed their software and systems. As a user, I am concerned that the influence of corporate management strategies will reduce the effectivness of this community, our shared digital home. I am delighted at the amazing amount of work that went into, and is still going into this site to make it what it is. BUT, the work going on, which is immense artisticly and tecnically, happens on both sides. All I ask, is that the Powers that Be remember that Renderosity does not follow a conventional business model in any sense. We, as a collection of artists work in symbiosis with your company and form a Community. As long as the Community remains, you will always have artists and creators eager to participate. Just remember that we have to work together through this. Falcon

I join this group when Willow was running it. Over the years I have learned amazing things about animation and Poser. I personally want to thank Willow, Jack and Edgenet. Willow for creating this wonderful place to visit and Jack for taking over and making the community grow...and Edgenet for the bandwidth for all of us to have fun. Working as a Television Producer this battle is like the our Networks and Producers battle for control. The postive out of all this is we have 3 wonderful places we all can visit.. Willows site took on great look, Jack site is improving daily and new visitors...edgenet for keeping up this site...as costly as it is...Everyone will be a winner once the dust is gone...With out the support of All the communities...Meta Creation wouldn't sold Poser for Big Bucks...and we wouldn't had a future for our favorite toy! Steve Owens

Substance over matter. If we as artists leave this site just because of a 'management' change or loyalties whatever , then we ourselves will bring the end of Renderosity. I doubt the new hands invested time and money to destroy this site. Even if Jack starts a new site why not just have two bookmarks? , would you really want to abandon all the help and freestuff people work hard to bring this community? Or are you the type to hold a grudge and still come here just dl the freestuff?

I have enjoyed the use of this forum, as has been mentioned this site is extremely user freindly. Also I enjoy using the poser program along with other software that have forums dedicated to discussions as well as helpful folk who visit and offer help. Of late I have also thought that the online store has worked out in many ways. It offers many of the advanced users to showcase and sell their products, I had hoped that I could learn enough to give back to this community some day. The way that we can do that is to support the forums...yes all of them. Each of the forums out there offer something a bit different. This one has in the past developed a more open acceptance of many types of art, I have noticed that many people have cross-posted to the various forums. This seems to be great, everyone finds a home for their art and expression. Still behind it all is the software and server expenses, and the costs that should be paid. It seemed to be working. I think though that there should be some agreement reached about the profits of the site if there ever should be some, and also the sale of the site. Like a domestic relationship, money can be the main reason why a business relationship fails. I do not think that anyone has a problem with people getting paid for work that they do. It seems that there has been an underlying intent to generate some kind of income to cover expenses. Where it gets unclear is the words costs and "sale". In a way it is unfair to think that one group will profit over others who volunteer, but it takes everyone together to make a community. If this one is expected to pay its expenses then I think people will generally not have a problem helping to support the forum....but then what. Some valid points have been made, and in my humble opinion, the issue of loyalty goes only so far when there is an underlying potential or even an expectation for profit.....as a community we than are a commodity....and a resource. I think members resent being treated as property, I know I get nervous thinking about it. It also seems unfair that if part of the community is volunteering and the other part is profiting from the efforts which are intended to support the community and not one part more than another. There must be a happy balance, for this there will have to be solutions. It is easy to find the problems but harder to find solutions. I hope that in this great experiment a solution can be found. Usually it is good to find the two end points, what the individuals in the community want and what the vendors want and what the providers want. Somewhere in the middle will be solutions and compromises. the idea of having the members vote is a good one, perhaps operating this forum much like a corporation may be a good place to start generating ideas. Articles and bylaws might give people a place to start, not as rules per se but to communicate clearly what is expected. However the notion of a corporation or association also means that everyone who is a member would have an "investment" in the community. The biggie is how, who and by what means money would be handled. So after blabbering on I would wonder if Edgenet is in a position to comment on the nature of the future of their investment in terms of the money. ...just what do they expect in terms of control and profit. In other words even if the community votes on moderators, and the community votes on rules, what control will the community have over itself in terms of being sold. Can they expect to vote on that? Would they be at least entitled to disclosure? I think a lot of concern is that their artwork (contained in the galleries/free stuff) will be "sold". Or that their information will be sold. It may not matter for some, I for one enjoy using this forum as well as the others. It is just hard to see so many people getting so upset because things did not go the way they expected.

Hey Guys: Busines are busines, I have not seen a banner of public beneficence over here, EdgeNet is a corporation, and I would listen the truth that they are trying to do busines that some other lies. Personaly I don't liked the way EdgeNet (maybe at Jack's contract Times) ran the site, the worst came when the past administration asked for money. But oh Well Now I think the community will be in better hands since Tim and EdgeNet team took the control of this place. I feel more confortable with a good corporation giving me a good service, because it backup and resources. You will not going to buy medicines from a wizard or holyman, you will buy them from a big lab corporation. Jack and Ed tried to run the site, but there was a lack of knowledge about business, that's why the deal fails. So Let the pros make their job and don't be afraid about changes, evolution is always good. That's my humble point of view as just one member of Renderosity Forums.

T1 lines, servers, all this stuff costs money and lots of it. Software development costs money, and lots of it. On the other hand, I come to this site daily and make use of a service which costs me nothing and from which I derive considerable enjoyment and value. I'm a pretty new user here. I don't know the people involved and I don't know a lot of history. But, as I see it, if the people who are kind enough to provide this service that I enjoy so much can recoup their costs -- Great! If, by some miracle, they do better than recouping their costs and actually see some profit from it -- even better!

The issue here isn't about freedom or privacy or any of that, its all about money. Why should EN share money with whoever now that this site is up and running? There is no reason. And don't kid yourself that this site will last if it continues to lose money, doubt me? Remember Metacreations.

Eh. I didn't expect this big love to "halyava" (free stuff) from you, people. Some guys provides a free service and they're decide what to do with it and how much money they can spend to keep it in work. If it make troubles to this company, they CAN to stop this. And, I think, they'll do it if we'll cry "give me more, give me free". It will be sad but I can understand it. (sorry for my poor english, it's not my native)

Well said sgacity. Sites like Renderosity swallow enormous amounts of bandwidth and require a high level of maintenance. In other words--they require money...and lots of it.

AAlhazred, Jack & Ed have a P.O. Box you can send donations to if that the way you wanna go. -JH.

THIS IS THE END, MY ONLY FRIEND, THE END.

Just so it is clear, I appreciate all that everyone does to make this community work. It just seems so emotional when there are disagreements. I realize that this community now is more like a business, and that there are expenses. But these terms are pretty general. I hope that there are solutions in the making. that is all. I know that everyone who has been involved with this community from business to individuals appreciate the work everyone has put into this site. I know I do. I also realize that none of us can pay our bills with "appreciation".

How long is this going to last anyway? I like Ed and Jack (though I don't know them), and they did a good job, as far as I can tell. But business is business, and that's pretty much the way it goes, the way I see it. To all who feel resentful about Edgenet's lack of desire to simply "go along with" an unacceptable situation, well, I would have to ask, "What would YOU do?". Oh well... life goes on. Cheers, Mike

I am curious as to who a lot of the people who are posting the remarks and put downs are coming from. Having been a member for a while here when it was the PFO and then Renderosity about 90% of the ones ranting and raving in the forums and other places in the site are really unfamiliar to me. Who are you people?? And do you have a life outside of your computers ?? I make my living on my computer with my 3D and other digital mediums and so have a certain (God forbid) economic reason for belonging to and using as many 3D sites as I can. And not one of them has a perfect setup when it comes to the financial and ownership setups that please everyone. I am not pleased about what has happened but the snide remarks and outright vitriolic tirades of some in the forums and elsewhere does nothing but show an immature attitude on the part of a very few people who can't accept that what is done is done and to either move on or let it go and see what happens in the future. So why not give it a rest as it does nothing but show a propensity to cause upheaval and trouble for a lot of people who really don't want to hear it. I reiterate that I like and respect Jack and Ed and some of the people who are leaving and going with them but I also like some of the people who are staying here. I don't particularly care for some of the people who are staying here just as I don't care for some who are going with Jack and Ed and leaving here. I plan to go with them but I also plan to stay here. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean I am supporting Renderosity under Edgenet any more than I am suppoting Jack and Ed in the new place I hope they set up. What it means is that I want to gain and get all the help and advice in my work as I can from the people who I admire and respect in both places. That is my right and my perogative as a person who has free choice. So if anyone wishes to leave they are free to do so. If any wish to stay they are also free to do so. What is not appreciated by a vast number of us is the attitude from both sides that the other side is wrong and a bunch of jerks. I don't hack on any who leave and I don't hack on any who stay (and I could as I can tell you that from what I have read I am much better at it that most here when it comes to flaming). It is each persons right to do as they feel they must. That is why it should be let go now and we should all get on with what to me is more important in the long run and that is having the camaradrie we once enjoyed and the friendships we have made in this forum and ones that I hope to join with in the future with those who will go on to Jack and Eds forum. I know for a fact that none of the principals( Jack, Ed or Tim ) wish to see the whole community torn apart and both sides in this dispute have stated so in no uncertain terms. So let it go and see where it all falls out and hopefully we will all benefit from it. We all have the right to out opinions. We also have the right not to have others try to push their opinions down our throats. Smart ass remarks lead to one thing only. A reflection of the person who makes them.