Snip From The NEW Privacy Statement Our site's registration form requires users to give us contact information (like their name and email address) and demographic information (like their zip code, age, or income level). We use customer contact information from the registration form to send the user information about our company and promotional material from some of our partners. The customer's contact information is also used to contact the visitor when necessary and shared with other companies who may want to contact our visitors. Users may opt-out of receiving future mailings; see the choice/opt-out section below. Demographic and profile data is collected at our site. We use this data for other purposes. We use this data to tailor the visitor's experience at our site, showing them content that we think they might be interested in, and displaying the content according to their preferences. This information is shared with advertisers on an aggregate basis. This site contains links to other sites. renderosity.com is not responsible for the privacy practices or the content of such Web sites. Our site uses an order form for customers to request information, products, and services. We collect visitor's contact information (like their email address) and financial information (like their account or credit card numbers). Contact information from the order form is used to send orders, information about our company, and promotional material from some of our partners to our customers. The customer's contact information is also used to get in touch with the visitor when necessary and shared with other companies who may want to contact our visitors. Users may opt-out of receiving future mailings; see the choice/opt-out section below. Financial information that is collected is used to bill the user for products and services. Our online surveys ask visitors for contact information (like their email address) and demographic information (like their zip code, age, or income level). We use contact data from our surveys to send the user information about our company and promotional material from some of our partners. The customer's contact information is also used to contact the visitor when necessary and shared with other companies who may want to contact our visitors. Users may opt-out of receiving future mailings; see the choice/opt-out section below. Demographic and profile data is also collected at our site. We use this data to tailor our visitor's experience at our site, showing them content that we think they might be interested in, and displaying the content according to their preferences. This information is shared with advertisers on an aggregate basis. We run contests on our site in which we ask visitors for contact information (like their email address) and demographic information (like their zip code, age, or income level). We use contact data from our contests to send users information about our company and promotional material from some of our partners. The customer's contact information is also used to contact the visitor when necessary and shared with other companies who may want to contact our visitors. Users may opt-out of receiving future mailings; see the choice/opt-out section below. Demographic and profile data is also collected at our site. We use this data to tailor our visitor's experience at our site, showing them content that we think they might be interested in, and displaying the content according to their preferences. This information is shared with advertisers on an aggregate basis. We may use an outside ad company to display ads on our site. These ads may contain cookies. While we use cookies in other parts of our Web site, cookies received with banner ads are collected by our ad company, and we do not have access to this information. Some customer data is shared with the advertising companies. Now You Want To Give our Information Away!??? Yes This New Management Is LOADS Better Than The Old One. NOT!

Sounds like a standard Privacy Statement to me (and I had to research the blasted things for my current employers, so I've seen LOTS).

a careful reading of these statements indicate simply the potential litigiousness of web business in general. It appears to re-state the obvious, after all the "databases" would not be a marketable product if the stated policies were not the case. It would seem that in order for Ed and Jack to "arrange" a sale at all the above would be the case. This "community" is a marketing commodity, that is what is paying the tabs for online businesses...advertising dollars.......we should be more concerned over whether our "artwork" and "models" and other creations remain our individual property; It seems that if we want our "talents" to be showcased and we want the benefit of "free" advertising, we also give in exchange the right to market our interests....

I'm sorry, I don't agree, Lorraine. An e-mail address and name yes, but not your zip code, location, and absolutely no one's business what my income level is!!!!! I don't like Junk phone calls and I don't like spam e-mail. I do not agree that this information should be traded or sold among businesses. My family receives an incredible amoung of junk mail everyday from companies who have bought our address and something like 30 to 40 phone calls a day from people trying to sell us something. This is information I am no longer giving away to be bought and sold. Liz Pope Dreamspinner Inc.

Didn't Jack say in his fairwell speech that he was going to sell the sacred database to Zygote and Curiouslabs? Oh yea. He said he was gonna tell us before he did that. Uh...............................OK. Say I believed that. Since this is such a sacred list. Were you all gonna agree to let Jack do that? Why can he do it? And not anyone else? I won't even go into the ethics of that one. ScottA

Hi Liz: I agree that the information "should not be sold" but unfortunately this often happens. I suspect this is something that a concerned "forum visitor" should address with every potential forum. It seems to me that however one looks at it, the sale of our information makes it seem like we as a community are property to the web-site owners. If the complained of deal would have been acceptible to the principals of the sale, we of the community would be "sold" with nary a clue until it was over. Sometimes I think we have become a society of form-filler-outers....we are asked for and do give out our information, one has to wonder why the companies want that information at all.....but my comment was basically made only to point out that like it or not we as community members are exchanging something for the benefits of using computer space....often it is good to think about these things. I do think that one benefit to 'balance" against the inevitable "database" for dollars approach is that as a community of poser artists and enthusiasts we do get exposure to new information and our works are "exposed". In terms of advertising that is worth $$'s. I am not an advocate for the sale of individual information, I don't even like to fill in the surveys, but I also am practical enough to know that the phone calls and the flood of junk mail is proof positive of advertising at work. The internet just takes a lot of the work out of it, we log on, fill in and expose our information...often without thinking about anything but that flashy screen... Lorraine

Zygote and Curious Labs already have my information. I have purchased quite a few things from Zygote. If Curious Labs did not get my information from Metacreations, especially about my registration of my Poser Program, then I will be urked to find I will not be able to purchase Poser 5 at a lower price for those who were registered users. Since both companies already had my information, then the 'sale' of it by either Jack or EdgeNet was not something that bothered me. However, I do believe that I should be able to limit to whom my information is given. Selling information on-line might be a reality, but it is questionably legal. And I do not give it out unwisely. There are many times you go for a free download somewhere and they want all this information. These places get my P.O.Box for an address, and a line of ***** for my phone number. If I am buying something online, that is another matter, and again, I cannot control what that company does with the information from my purchase. I believe that I heard that there was legal debate about passing laws detailing what information could be taken over the Internet and what could be done with it. How effective those laws might end up being is anyone's guess. I do not know EdgeNet and I do not know what advertisers they would be selling my information to. Jack and Ed would have been selling information to Zygote and Curious Labs, who I've already stated have my information. Beyond those two, I would be deleting spam mail if I receive it. I had to renew my drivers license recently and with it came a little slip of paper "Request to Restrict Disclosure of Personal Information From Driver License Record". If you did not want you personal information being given for marketing surveys, ect, you could request that it be witheld. This is from the Texas Department of Public Safety. Of course, I filled this out. Liz Pope Dreamspinner Inc.

And P.S. Jack and Ed only had my name and e-mail address to sell, and my consent to receive e-mails from Zygote, nothing else. The disclosure that begins this thread asks for much more than that which I believe is not their business. Liz Pope Dreamspinner Inc.

What's all that got to do with selling the info? Just because YOU have no problem with Zygote and Curiouslabs having your info. Doesn't mean I don't. Are your rights more important than mine? You seem unconcerened about anyone other than yourself. (Sorry. Just being honest. Not trying to pick a fight.) These are the things people would bring up if the issue of selling the database came up. I see no difference between Jack selling my info or Edgnet selling it. It's only a matter of who gets the money. Jack was in it for the money from the start. Not for the community. (Although he probably liked that as an extra bonus). If you don't agree with that statement. Don't. I won't ask you to. God gave you a brain. Use it. I can't tell you what to think. So what? Big deal. Who cares? That doesn't make him the evilest guy in the world. He took a shoot at making money. And he lost. Now he'll try to do it somewhere else. (do you think he won't?) Life goes on. Who cares? People flipping out about the whole thing. Is just absurd to me. ScottA

Critical difference here is that Curious Labs and Zygote would have been part of this forum and their identities would have been known to each and every member. The TOS that is quoted above lets your personal info be sold to third parties. You won't know who. And you won't know when.

Critical to you maybe. Not to me. I had no idea we had so many mind readers in the forum. What am I thinking now? ;-) ScottA

GEESH! I think it is good to discuss the issue of the use of or sale of information garnered by e-sites. As the owner of my own personal information it is left open as to where the money should go for my information. In other words if there was negotiations going on about selling me I think it is only fair to have that negotiation made known to me before hand. Whether Zygote or Curious labs had an interest in buying me as a set of data-fields is something that should be disclosed. Now that we all know that we are part of a contemplated sale, I think it is clear that the type of disclosure that is now being made is quite necessary given the legal issues. The thing that made the "community" a sale-able commodity goes beyond the information as Liz observes, these two entities at least would have most of this information anyway; we are after all a community that enjoys products from both. What this list does do is generate ongoing interest from the products through our creations. So in my view this particular "database" is valuable for the "community spirit" generated by the forum, that is what seems to me to be at the root of the whole sale. That spirit, to me, has been generated by some factors that have nothing to do strictly with the information, it has to do with the willingness to share a passion for the combination of art, interest, technical expertise, and actual creations. That "combination' is apparent in the excitement of using our coupons from zygote to purchase that model that we just could not get, the new and interesting things can create with that piece of technical advice, the feeling of warmth one might get from giving that clue that lets another understand how to get more out of the program...not to mention the feedback that the vendors get by all the comments. Liz, what my point was leading to the importance of the individuals of the community in what is "marketable" and how responsible we need to be to remain informed of what is going on. Quite frankly I am surprised that there is any blame-shifting based on the privacy disclosure that we now are told, since this type of thing had to have been operative for the "sale" anyway, we are just now being updated of the legality of the intent to sell "us". It seems apparent that this whole thing was going to occur behind the scenes and we were going to be told how wonderful it was afterwards. Now we know, I think your observations are valid, your comments though seem to blame one principal or the other. To me the issue is the same on all sides it has nothing to do with loyalty except that unless the "spirit" of the community remains there is nothing that is saleable. Also it remains to be seen what "legal" liability exists since these are relatively new problems for which the legal system would be a lengthy and expensive as a choice. Even in terms of legal arguments, it seems to me that your point is the legal point.....should there have been disclosure to us the individuals of the existence or potential of being sold ahead of time? Under your exact argument the answer is yes. That is my point. Quite frankly it takes all things as we see, in combination, to create this community. The software, the server, the people to administrate the lists, and the "us", you me and everyone else. One question that has bothered me is exactly what about all the people who had also invested time and expertise as administrators in the past, we have seen bits and pieces of the poltics of the disputes when they left...and yes Willow too. Would this sale have paid them back for their investment? Should we have been part of deciding how the sale of us was to be divvied up? Should we be treated like shareholders in a corporation, get an accounting of where the store money actually goes? Should we become more responsible for the "board of directors" who seem to have the power to sell us? I do not know anything more than as community members we need to understand a whole lot more about how we became a commodity, take a bit of power from that and see what we can do to stabilize the forum. It really is our forum, it is our information, the businesses operate on money profits, we really not informed on what the expenses are of our forum. So maybe everyone could consider how this whole thing can teach us to become responsible as a community if what we do not want is to be sold to pay our bills.

Lorraine, you make some very good points, and I agree with many of them. My only reason for repling at all to this thread was the requirements of the New Management. In my opinion, they are asking for far too much information than I am willing to give out. The previous management only had my name and e-mail address, of which, e-mail addresses can be changed. Online handles can be changed. This other information I believe is none of their business. Like where I live and how much money I make. If you remember there was a bit of an uproar over such information on the last nation Census. I was only commenting on the post that started this thread. We have decided that if old members are required to resign to this place under the above posted rules, we will not be doing so. Liz Pope Dreamspinner Inc.

Hi Liz, I think it is important that your views are expressed as you have done. I hope that in terms of the issue of information we can evolve to be more in control of how our individual information is used. I do not think that there has been any additional information requested to sign up, so even if the legal disclosures which are now posted seem to include other information, I think this is so becasue of the now realized potential for "sale"; it remains to be seen whether or not more individual information will be requested. Your post does bring home the concept that "interest" in using a forum will be affected by the indvidual's privacy limitations as far as information is concerned.

Lorraine, thank you for being open minded and level headed about this particular thread. I had read posts this morning and was telling myself I would not respond to this thread again. I decided on one last post to try to get it across that I was responding ONLY to the opening of this thread. I am wondering how profitable this site will be once the major artists have left.... Many that I have are people in the technology fields and operate from behind Firewalls and spam filtering programs. Whatever database is sold, it will most likely only be a nuisence to some of them, if any marketing spam gets through to them at all. For me, there is always the delete button and spam software, and closely guarding what personal information I give out over the Internet. Liz Pope Dreamspinner Inc.