Just thought I'd see what the rest of you thought about Postworking images. Hope I'm not opening a can-of-worms here! I do feel that using Postwork in images shows off the talent of the artist and NOT the power of the particular 3D package. If you had good postworking skills there really isn't the need for the advanced clothing room and realistic hair for say Poser - you could just paint them in. I think I would like to see more 'untouched' renders in the Gallery as it would inspire me to get the best out of the package. If an image is heavily postworked then I know with my lack of artistic ability I would never be able to produce the stunning images shown there. Actually when you think about it, Postworked images should really belong in a 2D gallery since strictly the image is no-longer 3D (3D implies you can reproduce the image from any angle) Certainly if someone is looking for a 3D package and wants to see what a package can do, there would be no point in looking at a Postworked image as it does not demonstrate the power of the package. As a case in point, when Curious Labs first released Poser5 they ran a competition to show off the power of Poser5. Believe it or not, the winning image, fantastic as it was, was rendered in Vue with imported Poser figures! I hope no-one bouught P5 on the strength of that winning image or they would have been sorely disappointed! The Gallery images at Curious Labs still feature heavily postworked images and I think this should be highlighted for any potential buyers! I know some of you will say that art is all about the image and not how it was produced but if that were the case, why split the galleries into the various packages (Poser, Vue, 3d Studio etc) - all images should be in the one gallery. Perhaps there should be galleries for 'True' 3D work witout ANY postwork. It would at least give some of us non-talented artists the chance of maybe getting in that Top 20 Gallery list! What does anyone else think? p.s. I've cross posted this in both the Vue and Poser Forums to see whether there are differing views although I must admit, there is much less Postworking goes on in the Vue Gallery and some of the images are pretty close to photo-realistic straight from the render output!

I usually try to avoid postwork, but there are some instances where it is simply not possible to realize the vision of what you have in your head with only the program, The most postwork I've ever had to do in an image was smudging the obvious edges in the spheres used to create the volcanic cloud in my "destruction of paradise" image, and before that I had tried for months to come up with a way to do it that didn't involve postwork. But other than the smudging and some brightness/contrast adjustment the rest of the image is entirely 3d, so I'd have to disagree with putting it in the 2d gallery. There was a similar discussion just recently about using poser figures in Vue scenes as well and this sounds like the same thing. My feeling is that it's up to the artist to determine where it should be posted, you can't really draw a line in the sand and say "this goes here...this goes there". Oh, incidentally, most of the Vue hot 20 images have no post work in them at all so I'm not sure where you're coming from on that one.

Uh oh... I better start looking for those worms :) I agree with the point that if you want to see what a software is about, postwork doesn't make much sense. But the fact is that the galleries here are open to anyone to share their own vision, and in that context, any technique or combination of tools is fair game. If you want untouched Vue images, just have a look at the gallery of Pictures of the Day on the e-on software website. They request exclusively images without postwork. In my experience, I found that I could not render a Vue picture at a large resolution (print size) without seeing so many defects and sharp edges that postwork was an absolute necessaity.

Hi Just to respond to the point made by nanotyrannus - I did say that in my original post that Vue images are less prone to postworking and that is a testament to the power off the package and the skill of the 3D artist. But I'd challenge you to find a Hot 20 picture in the Poser Gallery thet is NOT postworked. If I was new to 3D and was looking for an all-round package where would I look for examples? I'm not saying anything about the fantastic images themeselves and agree taht postworking is necessary in some cases. I'm only saying that maybe there should be a section for pure 3D artists to express themselves that would double as showcases for the individual packages. I personally get very demotivated with Poser when I can't achieve soem of the images posted in the Poser Gallery only to discover that they were heavily Postworked. A GOOD 3D Package should put the ability to produce fantastic images in EVERYONES hands and credit should be given to those that have the skill to push these packages to their limits.

Ok, i don't want to jump completely into this discussion. Only some remarks. #1 I don't do free advertisement for any company here. I do 3D images. So the fact wether i do things with or without postwork is not really relevant to me. I want to create good images. #2 "You said "some of the images are pretty close to photo-realistic straight from the render output!" What is photo-realism? Is that a goal most of us want to achieve? I don't think so. For me it was always much more important to develop a unique style for the medium 3D. When i want photos i take my camera and go out. Much more healthy btw. #3 you said "A GOOD 3D Package should put the ability to produce fantastic images in EVERYONES hands and credit should be given to those that have the skill to push these packages to their limits." Is that not possible in all 3D packages? I think it is. It is more a question what you want to achieve. In all creative areas it is important to respond to the specific capabilities of the tool/medium you are using. Create an oil painting with a pencil - will be difficult. Funny to see me saying all this, because i think i am one of the most strict "no-postwork" guys around here. I even don't use alpha planes in my work (normally). But for me it is more a sportive thing than anything else. "No-postwork" is not a value for it's own. I hope it was not to straight, was not my intention. Walther

Nice to see this discussion remaining civil! I'm another one who chooses not to do post work on pictures that I post in the Vue Gallery, for two reasons- I'm still relatively new to the whole 3D art scene, and Vue in particular, and I want to see what I can achieve with the program itself;
secondly, I don't think that I am very good at it! (Deluxe Paint 4 on the Amiga was my limit - whoops, showing my age - LOL!)

I don't have a problem with postworked images in the Vue gallery or anywhere else for that matter, but I guess I think of them more as artwork pieces, representative of the artist's talent rather than examples of what can be achieved with Vue d'Esprit. That probably stems from the fact that I dont really think of myself as an artist per se, more like a scene arranger with a good imagination. A craftsman, or artisan, if you will. That not to denigrate all the artists here in anyway, just how I see what I do. No doubt, when the software no longer does everything that I want it to do, I'll be postworking up there with the best of them!!
Just my two cents ;o)
Nick

I feel it is the final image that counts and ANY tool that helps achieve the desired results is ok. Of course if one wants to use "pure" software that is ok so long as they are only using what is supplied with the original program only and no other additions or software! I am smiling.

Actually I didn't read the original post carefully enough. :) As far as postworked images in the Vue gallery, my decision to post there depends on the degree of postwork and many times if it is a lot of postwork, I'll post in Mixed Medium (which despite popular opinion is not for Mixed 3D platforms, but more for traditional/digital 2D works). ShadowWind

The subject of a pure gallery has been brought up many times, but has not gotten too far, because it would be difficult to define what that means. Even images with no postwork import a lot of elements from Xfrog, 3DS max, etc, and so that is not pure either. Even Vue's Picture of the Day excepts images that use elements imported that are not in Vue and they are about as pure as you can get. The problem with a pure gallery in Poser is that most of the characters would be bald or all would look exactly the same since free or purchased hair models are very scarce. Clothes would be the same way. Poser started out as a figure study tool for traditional or digital 2d artists to paint from. That is why it's more prominant towards postwork. ShadowWind

Well, the poser gallery and the vue gallery are very different in terms of who is commenting and looking at the images and I know that the typical work in the poser gallery tends to consist of "naked vicky, and look she's got a sword = lots of viewings = good art". Since this isn't the poser forum I'm not going to go there but I might go check out how this post is going in the poser forum to see how they feel about all this. To respond to stealth1701, yes, it might be a good idea to have a "no postwork" gallery, but Renderosity is not in a position to monitor or control whether somebody uses postwork or not, nor should they be in my opinion. But like Agiel said, if you want a gallery that showcases non postworked Vue images the best place for that is the source, Eon Software's website (which posts exactly what you're looking for, "fantastic images" created using only Vue, with "credit given to those that have the skill to push these packages to their limits". I can't speak for the Poser galleries though, maybe you'll find out from them (since you posted this there as well) where there might be a site that has non postworked poser images.

If you do a search on this forum using "postwork", you'll find this discussion in many permutations. I do some postwork on some of my images, mainly because I often import Poser figures into them, and I find the Poser figures usually need some "help" to smooth out bends, textures, etc. I will also sometimes adjust color levels or something similar, if I can't get the effect I"m looking for. I will also smooth or clone out texture weirdness, or angular places on rocks (for example).I've occasionally tried my hand at painting in some grass and stuff, but don't do a lot with that since I basically stink at it! So I am not a "straight out of the renderer" purist; for me, it's the image I'm going for, how I want it to look, the effect I want to achieve. I do understand the desire to get "the perfect image" right out of Vue (or whatever soft you're using)...but I seldom am happy with one or more elements in a render, and since I am not against postwork, I will dabble with it. I do wonder about some images where a large majority of the work is postwork, why they're in a particular gallery, but shrugs it's up to the artist where they feel they want to post the image. Doesn't bug me! And I agree with Walther, that I'm not being paid by E-on to advertise their product, so don't have any stake in worrying about whether or not I postwork my image and put it in the Vue gallery.

While waiting (interminably, lol) for my coment to post, another thought came to me. I was looking again at the title of your post, "The Case for NOT Postworking Images", and I wonder...what is it about? By that, I mean, is it about the software? Is it about the programming and interface? Is it about the company that made the software? Or is it about the image and/or the art? For me, it's about the image (don't know if you can call my images art, lol!). Not about the software package I happen to be using. I think this holds true for the Poser gallery (image content of NVIATWAS notwithstanding) as well. An analogy...take a big piece of marble. It's probably a bit rough. Carve it into a big statue of David. Use chisels, mallets, pics, rasps, saws. Then start smoothing it and polishing it with grit and emery. I bet it looks really different after it's smoothed and polished. Is the smoothing and polishing postwork? I think it is, and it is the resulting sculpture/artwork that gives people pleasure to look at. Maybe not the best analogy, but I've got sculpture on the mind right now. Anyway, I guess my summary is...to me, it's about the art, not the tools.

"Actually when you think about it, Postworked images should really belong in a 2D gallery since strictly the image is no-longer 3D (3D implies you can reproduce the image from any angle)" Actually, if you wish to be anal, the second you save your work to an image file, it becomes 2D. I do post work, but for the most part, right now, it's minor. That's simply becuase I'm not that good with Photoshop or my tablet yet. As I get better, that could change. If I render the image in Vue, it goes in the Vue Gallery. If I render in Poser, it goes in the Poser Gallery. If I render in either, but the contents from either package is minor and I heavily post work the image, I would likely post it in Mixed Medium. A good example is Hobbit's gallery. He's really good at posting in 2D and Mixed Medium when appropriate.

Well this forum seems to have stuck to the original question - over in Poser Land loads of people have thought I was attacking their right to produce art which I definately was not. I do agree that 3D packages have their limitations but surely that is why E-On has gone to great lengths to produce an update to allow us to import Transmapped hair and now, with Mover 5, dynamic clothing etc. If we all said we were happy to draw in our clothes and hair where would be the incentive to produce these updates. Now i certainly don't have any connection with E-On software but i would sure like to shake the hand of all the developers there that put that package together and to them I say 'Keep Going'!! Some of us want you to get to the stage where anyone can make a realistic movie with just Vue (and maybe a 90GHz machine!) Thanks for all your feedback - its been really interesting.

Your words about movies brought a new thought up for me. Good point. When you see a Brad Pitt, Mel Gibson, Whoever movie and there are dangerous scenes in it normally a stunt man is doing it. But the movie is still called a Brad Pitt (etc etc) movie. Not a mixed main actor film. There are always these zones of "easier to fix it with postproduction than redoing the scene". And it is not cheating there, just correcting minor things. I agree about the pleasure of intellectual challenge to avoid postproduction, but the aspect of effectiveness should be taken into the calculation too. BTW, that developers integrate options like transmapped hair or dynamic clothes has probably simply to do with the fact that Poser as the source application has that feature- When you decide to offer the import of these files you must be able to read all elements from the file. Not only some. Again, i am mostly with you, i don't do postwork normally. I am a 3D purist. That corrects sometimes little mistakes - as Djeser has described it. AND, let E-on know about the problems so that there is a chance that these corrections become less in the future.

I've never seen any pure Vue image that didn't need postwork. Sharpness, contrast and color corrections are just a few examples. I can live with that. Adding real skies to Vue images seems to be a new trend to get a higher ranking. The result is better indeed and we'll get some extra rankings. Now I have the choice to follow the same path, but will I happy with that? Something tells me that it's cheating and then above all cheating on myself. That makes me wonder where I'm going to draw the line. I mean, I can take a tropical forest and add that to the background, an alpa plane of an animal, one of a sky, some brush work in Photoshop to create fog, several flower brushes in Photoshop to stamp hundreds of flowers, etc. I'm quite good with Photoshop and postwork in general and I'm sure it will give me the rankings I want, but will I be happy with it? Nah, absolutely not. It will show me that I'm good in one area, but it will restrict me in other areas. When am I'm ever going to learn how to draw if I keep pasting all my life? I want to develop myself in as many areas as possible. Vue for me is nothing but a tool and one of these days I'm going to paint my own stuff, 100% mine. That's just my choice. Everybody is free to follow a different path.

for me postworking only for particular effect (like black and white photo simulation) all the rest must be pure Render engine... bye

I would like to commend everyone in this thread for one of the most civilized and intelligent discourses on this subject. Hat's off to you!. Render on!

I think it is not the objective amount of post work that decides where the picture is to be put. For me, this is more a question of where my heart is with an image. As long as it is post work in the meaning the term suggests - I enhance the elements of a Vue picture where I or Vue were not able to satisfy my vision of the piece - it will always be a Vue picture. But the other way around - I create a Vue render as a basis to do all the wonderful things in a paint program I'm perhaps not able to do from scratch, so that this is more like "painting by numbers" - I think I would feel about it as a 2D painting. And I guess that also influences the decision with which community I want to share it - perhaps the ones I think will be able to best value the effort and talent I invested in my artwork.

In the past I used alot of post work in my images but I rarely do anymore, especially now that I have the waterfall/alpha plane deal figured out. I don't think you should break your back just to fake an effect that can be done with a few clicks in post work as opposed to adjusting tons of things in vue. When you have been rendering a picture for hours and hours, then find 1 or 2 little mistakes that can easily be fixed just by using the stamp tool in PS, I say go for it. RR doesn't require you to say if you've done any post work so it can be your little secret.

Well stealth1701, I have to agree with you if I look at this; http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=660967&Start=1&Sectionid=3&filter_genre_id=0&WhatsNew=Yes That's just way too much, so I can understand your concerns. It doesn't make it a fair competion for some of us, because let's be honest; for some the gallery is some kind of HEALTHY competion