QUOTE Anyway, thanks to everyone for your opinions on my sob's thread. I'd like to clear up one point....I was not looking for pity, attention, or anything other than to have my account deleted, .....let me explain. I loved Renderosity site because it offered so much for so many types of artist who use so many different programs.....and it offered the OT forum which was always an interesting read while waiting for lonnnnnng renders. Often the debates got pretty heated, but I never felt what some have described as "hatemongering", sure there were people with different opinions, and as artists we can become quite passionate in our arguments....what some of you didn't realize is that even though some of us disagreed greatly, we still loved to hear different points of view. I noticed that in my sob's thread some of the people I disagreed with the most supported me, and stood up for freedom of speech. I have a deep appreciation for freedom of speech, and when Renderosity started to dictate what/who/how topics could be debated it definitely caught my attention...then threads started getting locked....when that didn't work they just started deleting them.....when that didn't work they just deleted the whole forum. Granted it was their site, their right.....just as it should be our right to voice our opinions on what they did, and to have our accounts completely removed when we no longer want to be part of a group with the types of dictator like values that this site has adopted...... Some people have said that we are slowly loosing our rights in America....If we don't fight out against this, if we let it go unchallenged even in small community forums, how can we stand up later when its a much bigger problem? I'd appreciate it if anyone wanting to respond to this thread join us over at our new OT Refugee forum where your posts will not be edited or deleted by the staff......besides its just a cool place to hang out with some of the regular OT'ers. http://digital-cheryle.com/Offtopic/index.php?sid=adcc943a68f6cb1e1430d021907a1f91 People all over the world have fought and died for the freedom to say whatever they want.....I'll not disrespect them by being part of Renderosity who does not uphold our most basic rights. END QUOTE

Right or wrong, I judge people by what they do, and not the pretty words they say. Teri taught me her lesson.

She wanted to be deleted, but now she's back again. I wish I had a peseta for every time something similar has happened here. It just proves what a good site it is - you can't stay away for long.

Anyone who actually cares can go over to many
of the other sites and read what you
all have to say about the defunct OT forum.
so why bore us with regurgitated posts from
those other forums??
it should be apparent by now that you will find no angry mob
of villagers here(or at poser pros) to rally with you
and storm castle rosity with pitch forks and torches in hand , so why bother flogging this
dead horse ?? :-)

Message edited on: 05/16/2004 12:59

Attached Link: http://www.despair.com/persistence.html

One person's dead horse is another's beloved deceased pet, maybe. :-) For my part, I'm not so terribly uspect about the forum removal, it's more the sight of the vultures circling the horse's carcass that's fascinating to dissect. I've never understood why some people dance on graves, but I don't really want to anymore.

Message edited on: 05/16/2004 14:09

"Some people have said that we are slowly loosing our rights in America....If we don't fight out against this, if we let it go unchallenged even in small community forums, how can we stand up later when its a much bigger problem?"

I gotta dissagree with the use of "freedom of speech" in this argument. Freedom of speech, while a right, is more of a responsibility. Freedom of speech does not entitle someone to take a bullhorn onto someone's private property or into someone's business anymore than it entitles someone to say whatever they want on someone's website.
And deleting threads/volatile forums does not violate free speech. People are welcome to put up a website and say whatever they want. (Blogs are a testimony to that fact) And a business has a right to decide how it wants to be seen or portrayed. Message edited on: 05/16/2004 17:42

Kendra- the arguement is that like say, a grocery store, it is open to the public they do not have a right to ban just certain people because they disagree. Weather by race, gender or opinion. It would be like saying a budist is never allowed to enter a catholic church, and THAT is against the law.

With regard to Banning I would agree with you. But closing the OT forum is quite different. That's simply a business taking charge of how their site is viewed by others, not violating free speech or getting rid of people they dissagree with.
And your analogy is correct but with one stipulation: how one behaves in that grocery store while dissagreeing does give the owner the right to 86 them. I know, I've kicked out a few people myself for reasons such as being obnoxious, vulger and rude. :)

"they do not have a right to ban just certain
people because they disagree. Weather by race,
gender or opinion."

yes that would be a clear violation
of civil rights laws
But they can prohibit certain
certain speech such as yelling
"this store sucks!!"
or anything they SUBJECTIVELY determined to be
in conflict with the interests of thier business.
private propery right sALWAYS superceed
free speech rights.
thats why you may have a yard sale open to the
"Public"yet still have people ejected for
supporting the wrong baseball team wearing the wrong
shoes. and it would be legally enforcable.

face reality you have no fundamental "right"
literal or implied ,to enter Data into someones
private web server.
Message edited on: 05/16/2004 18:19

Message edited on: 05/16/2004 18:30

Absolutly correct. But you didn't close down isle 6 for everybody because of one trouble maker. Also, it's the nature of the beast, an OT forum is also like an editoral spot on the news- The Dems get to give a response by law everytime the pres. gives his saturday afternoon speech. They don't close all the dem. owned radio stations because there is commentary he dosn't like. Equal time.

"Absolutly correct.
But you didn't close down isle 6
for everybody because of one trouble maker."

Perhaps not but if a store owner did that would be a business decision for a store owner to make and deal with the consequences thereof.
NOT a violation of of someones imaginary "right" to stroll down aisle 6 of that privately owned store. Message edited on: 05/16/2004 18:29

Maybe we could have a new forum where people discuss what went wrong with the old OT forum. That way we could clear out all these threads here, and get back to business as usual. I don't know why they decided to close the old OT forum, but all these specious analogies aren't gonna do any good AFAIK. That's one thing you learn from studying the ancient Greek philosophers: the weakest form of argument is the use of analogies. In argument by analogy, anything you encounter is limited to what you already knew, so you are held in a kind of dark-ages limbo of ignorance, from which you can never escape, until you move on to legitimate forms of logic and discourse.

Perhaps we could start discussing what motivates people who thought the old OT was full of "hatemongers" to keep popping into threads about OT, resurrecting the topic, and spewing forth judgments on people vs letting things go? Or is there a lack of logic in that, too?

• Renderosity has all the right of closing the OT Forum or any forum. - A group of people hate freedom of speach. - Most of the people love freedom of speach.

[[ Perhaps we could start discussing what motivates people who thought the old OT was full of "hatemongers" to keep popping into threads about OT, resurrecting the topic, and spewing forth judgments on people vs letting things go? Or is there a lack of logic in that, too?]] I STILL am waiting for them to explain, since they hated OT and all its denizens so very VERY profoundly (as indicated by their constant stream of vitriolic coments), why did they take the trouble to go there and read parts of the discussions? What purpose did that serve? What was the point?

She wanted to be deleted, but now she's back again
ROFLMAO!
A definite lack of communication here.

I've been a member here for over 4 years, longer than most..in the old days no one got "banned" from the old C&D forum....(Thats when Jack and Ed were here)..anyway it's seems like the more popular this site becomes, the more restrictive it becomes.Being one that started MANY heated threads, I can tell you I never took anything personally...me and ALEKS used to get into some big DISAGREEMENTS but I beleive it was never personal..I don't really know why this site has become the way it is...I still enjoy coming here posting a pic or two..looking through the art in the galleries..but since the removal of the C&D, and OT forums..my time here will be infreqeunt...I hope they bring something like those forums back...

Yes, it's sad. That was the one thing that set this site off from the other tons of sites. Also sad that a select few whiners managed to screw it up for the rest.

What ChaosArchangel said.
Seems that some folks here just can't appreciate a good debate,
but as there are still plenty of sites, where one can voice
his opinion freely, no big deal.

"I gotta dissagree with the use of "freedom of speech" in this argument...."

Is it really that easy?
This site was establish by a community of (Poser) artists, not by the present owners.
They took it over with the brand name and all the content, donated by the community.
So it would be an interesting debate if they had really the right to turn
this community into a teeny weeny, sponsor friendly web shop.

However, who cares, times are changing and we are just talking about a web site.
No reason for me to pick up a stick and fight for freedom.

Rosity is still a good place to show your newest "Vicky in a temple" approach,
your finest flower macro and to ask for help with all the bugs in your
brand new $2000 software.

Real art on the other hand needs freedom and authenticity to prosper,
don't try to find this here so you won't be disappointed.

cheers
Thomas

Rosity is still a good place to show your newest "Vicky in a temple" approach,
your finest flower macro and to ask for help with all the bugs in your
brand new $2000 software.
/startsacasm/Hi! i'm the mail clerk and the boss fired all of the CG artists. Is there anyone who can write a script to do a drop shadow to his bootlegged copy of PhotoShop?/endsarcasm/

It all boils down to which kind of site the Renderosity owners want to have. Do they want a web store that mmasquerades as a community? Do the want a community site that also brings in money by selling stuff to the community participants? They have showed that they can't handle the community aspect, so I guess they concentrate on the store idea. But let's not forget that the main idea with running Renderosity is not to provde a community site to artists, it's to show off Bondware and sell it to others. Renderosity is a storefront for Bondware. As such, they need a community here that looks good, neat and tidy.

Aw Gawd! Bondware! If I would have known about this sooner, I would not have wasted my time.
Sorry, nobodys perfect.

This is frustrating......I came to make sure my account had been deleted....it has not, only the password has been changed....and now I cannot delete my gallery. I don't give a rip about debating the old OT, I'm over that, I just want my stuff out of here for good.

"That's one thing you learn from studying the ancient Greek philosophers: the weakest form of argument is the use of analogies. In argument by analogy, anything you encounter is limited to what you already knew, so you are held in a kind of dark-ages limbo of ignorance, from which you can never escape, until you move on to legitimate forms of logic and discourse." -------------------------------------------------------------> An absolutly brilliant Quote! You DO learn something new every day!

Quote I hope one thing you guys learned http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1783903&Reply=1785606#10 So you admit- it IS an Us against them mentality at work here. (Note the use of YOU in the sentence) Quote (same thread) I hope one thing you guys learned was to be more tolerant and gentlemanly (or ladylike) Kind of like this? Quote Right or wrong, I judge people by what they do, and not the pretty words they say.Teri taught me her lesson. And this? I don't understand why Teri keeps postingshe is more put upon than she really is. Its all much ado about nothing. Nothing like waiting until someone has left, THEN taking potshots at them, that way, there will be no counterpoint. Total cowardice. Perhaps the people who are most virulent about support for OT closing were the ones who couldnt cut it in that forum. Just a passing thought And lets talk about this limited list idea. Name it the fluffy, irrelevant, find your happy place forum, that way, no one will post anything that closely resembles anything that requires thought, research, point and counterpoint discussion. Otherwise, just leave any sort of off topic or general discussion forum off your list. People are people, and they will talk about what they want, which is most likely 5topics you dont want them to talk about. Quote it's to show off Bondware and sell it to others. Renderosity is a storefront for Bondware. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1784279&Reply=1785191#21 Lets talk about those numbers shall we? When a certain member was asking for the real numbers at renderosity, although they went about it in a decidedly hostile manner, they do have a point. Those who are banned or leave are NOT deleted from the database, thus falsely inflating actual user numbers. Not a good thing to do (misrepresent a product) when trying to sell the aforementioned product. (Sorry about the links not being live, Im used to more modern software that when you place the link- its actually live- one doesn't have to code it in by hand)

anyway it's seems like the more popular this site becomes, the more restrictive it becomes

Hmmmmm.....interesting observation. I wonder? This point would be fascinating to study.

It's also possible that the more restrictive this site becomes, the more popular it becomes.

Hmmmm......

Also sad that a select few whiners managed to screw it up for the rest.

How true, how true.

Maybe we could have a new forum where people discuss what went wrong with the old OT forum. That way we could clear out all these threads here, and get back to business as usual.

This thing will die of itself after after a short time.

People will lose interest, and they will move on to gawk at the next big fight in the schoolyard.

I'd be in favor of some kind of replacement for the OT forum if there's some proof of an incremental benefit to the site in general, but all these contentious posts may be further alienating the admins, so why don't we agree to give it a rest? Let the admins make their decision in peace. IOW, if they see by these posts that people still need supervision 24/7 in regard to this issue, this will dissuade them from making a judgement in favor of a new forum. But if they see that people have learned to moderate themselves in the formulation of their messages, I think they might be amenable to persuasion.

mateo_sancarlos, Very well said.... We are infact talking about opening up another forum like the OT but with more defined rules.

with more defined rules.
Just be upfront and call it censorship....like my posts that have been deleted.

Emoticons where are you?

You know, it's funny. The other sites have been up for almost a week now, with all the regular OT 'ers posting, and I haven't even seen any animosity at all..... let alone personal attacks..... but for some reason, here, every time OT is mentioned somebody invariable gets in your face about how evil everyone in OT was......

If you notice, the complainers (here) are not over there.

"We are infact talking about opening up another forum like the OT but with more defined rules." You're not going to call it "C&D", are you? (giggle) (...what!? you knew it was coming, right?) /P

Codt
Doct
Tocd

I got it !

OCTD
(which would work for Obsessive Compulsive Typing Disorder)

:-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

:-)

Message edited on: 05/20/2004 18:58

It continues to amaze me how people will gripe about "losing" their freedoms in America, with the one most often whined about being freedom of speech. To date, no one I have questioned has been able to tell me one single freedom they had five years ago that has been cut off. Not one. As far as freedom of speech goes, when Renderosity decides to discontinue a group or whatever where you could post your thoughts, that is NOT taking away any of YOUR freedoms. You do not control what goes on here, and there is nothing in the US Constitution that says you do. Nothing in the Constitution gives anyone the "right" to express anything, anywhere, at anytime, in a forum that is the property of someone else. If you want to have the total freedom you desire, then continue to supply your own forum to do it in, and fly with it. The day someone comes to you and says you can't do thatin YOUR site that YOU pay for, then I will be the first in line to back you in any way I can.

The forum is dead, defunct, Renderosity has the right to do what they want with their site, the only problem is that some funny place has gone away, nothing more!

the only problem is that some funny place has gone away, nothing more! Not even gone away, just moved to a better place. Rosity's loss...

"It continues to amaze me how people will gripe about "losing" their freedoms in America, with the one most often whined about being freedom of speech. To date, no one I have questioned has been able to tell me one single freedom they had five years ago that has been cut off." I too often find myself Flabbergasted out how some otherwise intelligent adults ,that i know, cant make the distinction between their personal desires and their "rights". A co-worker of mine, who is a compulsive downloader of poser free stuff, actually seriously asserted that his right to "the pursuit of happiness" was being violated by the evil cable companies that wont provide him high speed internet access at the same price as his dial up service. Sad.

....A co-worker of mine, who is a compulsive downloader of poser free stuff, actually seriously asserted that his right to "the pursuit of happiness" was being violated by the evil cable companies that wont provide him high speed internet access at the same price as his dial up service.... And dammit anyway, the lottery people STILL refuse to give me the winning numbers ahead of the drawing!!! What NERVE!! LOL - sad is too right.