One thing I can't help but noticing is the rise of Apophysis fractals in the gallery, along with a few other flame fractals, is the "traditional" fractal becoming obsolete?

No! Not here, anyway! The flame fractals are fairly new to many of us (last couple of years), and Mark's Apophysis program is a treasure trove of images. So it's getting a workout! But if the fractal artists stick to only one style of fractal, it will get stale eventually. Fractal art is still evolving, and I think there will always be a variety of fractals. I can also tell you that no matter what Tina and I do, we can't seem to interest Avalanche Publishing in flame fractals. They want the traditional spiral in bright colors. In fact, of all the images I've sold, only one has been a flame. Linda

And another thing, Xenodream fractals have become almost extinct. There was a time a few months ago when you would see tons of them. Anyway, I'm looking for other sorts of fractals at this moment, I've just found L-Systems lying on my harddrive and I've decided to try it out. It's not the easiest program to master though...

Not as long as I'm alive.

Perhaps it is because people get sick of spirals? I never do, but I never ask myself why. I just see that e.g. Linda (Mc) integrates the whole surrounding of the spiral and thus pleases my search for something "new". My own creations still stick to the one-spiral-images or some geometric games... Perhaps it it time for a change? And re Apophysis - I tend to view these images less and less often, because the variety of styles is decreasing. Or I just get to see too many of them...

I think with most people it comes down to a choice of two programs...Apophysis or Ultra Fractal. Apophysis is free, you download it, open it up, move the triangles a bit and you have a pic. Ultra Fractal - you download the demo, open it up and get totally confused because there are so many options to change. You spend a month getting nowhere with it and then you are reluctant to actually pay for it because you can't make anything with it. People have said before that the learning curve on Ultra Fractal takes months. With Apophysis it takes minutes. Being able to change 50,000,000 different parameters is great if you know what you are doing...If you don't then it's just daunting and frustrating. No wonder so many people are using Apophysis... Matt.

That's ofcourse a factor also, the newbie factor. :) Wich program is the easiest to learn? I would have to agree that it's Apophysis. While Xenodream on the other hand, also being a flame fractal generator is much more difficult to get used to, not because of the number of features (there aren't that many) but because it takes more knowledge of the program to even create something descent, mostly you'll end up with a dot or a blurr. And there's no demo, perhaps that's got something to do with it. Although I prefer it over Apophysis because you can create more diverse fractals, and because so few use it.

Well I just love flame fractals...I offer wallpaper on my site and they all used to be non-flame fractals (they're all flames now). Ultra Fractal was the first program I owned...then I came across a site called Arcane Fractals and I was just blown away by the flame fractals I saw and they were made using Gimp. So I started looking for flame fractals and a friend who makes poser figures sent me here and that's when I got Apophysis. I never tire of the flame fractals...I can layer them and even mix with non-flame in my graphics program. I can even put them in ultra fractal and play in there if I want to (I think that's what it was orginally designed for). There's just something so cosmic about them that's missing in the more traditional fractals. Some of the best Ultrafractal images I've seen have been using flames made in Apophysis. ;o)

I know these are fight'n word but here it goes anyway... I love flames but I am sick of them. They are now boring. They all look the same. Even the good ones look the same. Hundreds of people are building the same image over and over again. There is very little artistry in them. A monkey could build a flame. It's just a matter of knowing when to stop pushing the randomize button to save the image and render it. Flames should be considered basic elements in a composition, like circles and lines are in a drawing. You can only draw so many drawings with nothing but single lines or circles before they get very not interesting. Apophysis should be the first step, followed by UF or a photo editing program with layering. I'll take a good spiral over a single flame any day, but I do love flames. I have hundreds of them on my hard drive.

Well...if you make your flames by just hitting the randomize button til you stop and render then I guess a monkey can do it! LOL That's not how I make my flames though. I love the beauty of a single flame and I disagree that there's very little artistry in them...there's a natural beauty in them that I don't see in other types of fractals. Though I do see beauty in non-flame fractals. It sounds like you're sick of them...if they're boring and all looking the same perhaps a break from them til you feel differently. I'm sorry you're so disenchanted right now and hope you feel better soon.

I guess a lot of it depends on which direction you are coming from. I've used flames in compositions to create landscapes or whatever and that bores me now. Anyone can make a flame that looks kind of like a plant or tree and set it in a landscape. I admit that using UF to put the image together takes a lot more skill than using Photoshop or another graphics editor but it still needs something very special for me to get excited about it. The reason I mostly make single flame images now is because to me it is all about the flame. Take a single flame and see how far you can take it...Do something that nobody has done before. Manipulate the flame to such an extent that people question whether or not it really is a single flame. If someone believes that I must have post-worked an image or combined several flames then i've made something worth showing. I've been using Apophysis exclusively for over a year now and I believe i've only just touched the surface of what it is capable of. Every time I open it and start working on a flame I see glimpses of possibilities while I work on something else. Apophysis is a simple tool to learn to use...but like anything you need to take your time over it if you want to make something original. Some people think it would be a better tool if it had the ability to layer flames or a gradient editor that was more akin to UF. I agree that would be great but that isn't what it's about to me. I can't remember the last time I used the smooth gradient feature in Apophysis. People say they want loads of gradients or starter flames to work from, I say 'what for?'...Learn to use the gradient editor in Apophysis to it's full potential and you will be amazed at just what it's possible to accomplish with just the default gradients. Why start from someone elses flame? Isn't it more gratifying knowing that you did it on your own? Don't settle for a random flame...I've deleted some of the best looking random flames you will ever see, when I can replicate them myself then I will post them. Where is the fun or creativity in accepting something the computer made? What part have you played in creating it? You loaded the program... Ok, I better wrap this up. It started as a simple reply and turned into something else entirely. In short...Yea, flames can be boring, but you have to look beyond that and see the potential of them to be truly unique in themselves. I guess i'm bias towards this, but somebody has to stand up for the poor old flames :O) Matt.

I've never seen so much flaming in a single thread.. ugh sorry

Am I the only one that is beginning to wonder about the flood filter? It seems like all I have to do dig a flame out of the garbage, apply a flood filter and maybe plop a Unicorn or something in front of it and it becomes a work of art. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I don't know good art when I see it. Don't get me wrong. There are lots of beautiful images using the flood filter and flames, but dang... You know, now that I think of it, what a great idea for an image! Get a dime-a-dozen flame, apply a flood filter and show a unicorn about to drown. Now there's a work of art. Does anyone have a unicorn that I can use? I guess I am in a foul mood, killing butterflies and drowning unicorns. There's probably a law against that someplace.

Awwwwww Keith...haven't you ever heard of that song...'Girls just wanna have fun!' I think it applies to lots of people (not just girls) when it comes to flames. I have only ever seen a couple of flames that just took my breath away, but most of them are really quite attractive and just plain fun. It's almost magic for someone who has always wanted to be creative, and has not got the talent or skills or money to paint or sculpt. You can make something pretty enough to hang on a wall or give to your friends to use as a desktop wallpaper. I am still working on making a single decent flame...and have yet to succeed. :( Maybe someday, I can figure out how to use a flood filter!

I don't see that any flame, non-flame or whatever is obsolete. I agree that spirals, flames etc ad infinitum generated just by hitting the random button (art by dice) can become boring. But aren't these programs only tools, like a brush for a painter,clay for scultor etc? I generally start with a flame, take it as far as I can go, then transfer it to a different program, maybe a third or forth till I get what I like. Although started as a flame, the final result may be totally unrecognizable as a flame.After all, the final work should be what you want it to be,not what the computer wants it to be.

Definitely not!! I agree that these days many postings of Apo images look very similar - but that doesn't have to be the case. Yes, you can generate an image very quickly in Apophysis - but you can also spend a significant amount of time tweaking it, then finding an image from which to create a suitable gradient - which can totally transform the appearance of the flame. And for anyone put off by the complexity of UltraFractal, then may I suggest the excellent (& FREE) programmes of Stephen Ferguson? ChaosPro, Sterlingware, VChira etc are all very good "traditional" (i.e. Mandelbrot & Julia) fractal generators which well reward a little time getting to know them. Bernie

I had an easier time learning Ultra Fractal than Apophysis, because Apophysis seemed simple enough that I didn't bother with a tutorial. The tutorials that come with UF really helped me. It still took a while to get a decent image, but at least I had a clear idea of what I was doing.