I just posted one of my pictures (Spanish Alley) to another forum just to get some feedback from a totally different set of artists and had only one response. His advice was "My suggestion for improvement is delete Bryce from your hard drive". How dare he suggest such a thing. Guess I won't be posting to that site again.

AND he said "[bryce is] Fast and pretty with very little redeeming value when it comes to transferable skills to a 'real' 3D package."

Wow, what the heck kind of place did you go to?

omg.. let me at them!!!! give me the url and i'll set them straight. drac (serious)

To be fair, he thought it was a good picture, but still. Not wanting to set Drac on them I won't mention the site, but it was linked to one of the UK's Computer Arts magazines. Oh, did I give it away?

bwaaahahhahaa

Well not to me you didn't, LOL. I don't have a clue, but I think Drac may have. :-D

Whispers to Ang - Computer Arts, but don't tell the others. The whisper thing does work in forums as well as chat doesn't it?

Let me guess, Deviant Art? I stopped posting there for that reason. Most there HATE Bryce and Poser.

drac generally doesn't have a clue -drac's alter ego

No Doug, but strange you should say that since I saw DeviantArt listed on the same forum and was gonna try. Don't think I'll bother now.

What was I thinking? I feel like I've been unfaithful to you all. But it was just one time and it really didn't mean anything.

Message edited on: 08/13/2004 21:44

And another thing. Why are most computer graphic magazines British and why doesn't the US have decent graphics mags and why do the imported British ones cost $15.00?!! I'm used to popping into WHSmith and spending 3 quid on a magazine that I'll skim through. Now if I buy one, I'll have to treasure it like a first edition. Can you tell I'm in a bad mood now?

Yea, don't bother with Deviant Art, that place is a waste of time.

I get the same thing all of the time...I dont care..Soon I will Master their Programs Then I will use what I create in THEIR Programs and still Render My Stills in Bryce...Soon I will be able to do all of this in the NEW Bryce...Animate,Lowpoly,High Poly...Then I can say...So They said what we do in Bryce doesnt Transfer Over to the Higher 3D Programs...Ha...Total BS...Shader Tweaking is almost like using The Texture Editor...And How we apply Maps in Bryce is very similar to Max's we use basically Slots and we can Tweak the UV Map...And Metaballin and Boolean would be the same except for the Export Options... Bottom line dont take it tooo heart...I have Pics all over and am friends who use The other Programs and Yes they are Making Money and I am not BUT my Stills look Way better then theirs but their animations blow mine away...I hope to Remedy that soon... AND... They can kiss the arse of a Hog waller Pig and may a Billion Facets Infect their renders....

bah, well, the computer arts site barely works for me here in korea, so i'll leave the flame war till some other time. drawbridge: probably because the US ones aren't subject to your state price control laws? drac

@foleypro - Well said. :-) @Drac - Your 10meg DSL playing up then? Shame ;-p Computer Arts has no idea how close it came.

well no. see what happens is that the South Korean government is very particular about where it allows me to go. If CA has had any dealings with North Korean propaganda (how I wouldn't know, maybe England has had other views on the rogue state than these guys here), then it's gonna be pretty hard to access any British site for a while :)

You cpuld always say the image was done in another 'real 3d' software and then see what kind of comments you'd get, if they are glowing, you'd then sit back and have a hoot to all those deluded people and their high handed treatment of Bryce....:) What was the site? Maybe I'll post one of mine and say it was done in C4D, and see what kind of comments I get....;]

Attached Link: http://forum.computerarts.co.uk/

You raise a very good point. I wonder what comment I would have got if I had just posted the picture without saying the name of the app. I think you should post, just to see.

I agree too...Do it...Lets se what they say...

@ Phil ! :) I just checked out that guys home page and his work is (to be gentle) less then impressive for somebody who is using serious software, i guess it is not a tool which matters, only artist and the idea !!! You are certanly on the good track (in my opinion), you can give me entire Maya with all addons, my work is still gonna suck, cuz i'm not in that stage of my developement, there is nothing I can do about it but work, and work and work, and then, results will follow !!! :)

This problem will always exsist. I suggest when anyone posts in general forums somewhere else...don't actually tell them what you used...to begin with, see what they say. Then, if you really want, tell them. I bet you see a differece of opion AFTER you tell them. To get honest critique, don't mention Bryce at first. (just my opinion) The word "Bryce" can bias people. That's people NOT artists. True artists see your art, and not your "$60 tool/toy". And, just wait....Bryce 5.5 and 6.0 will only upset those "people" more, trust me. ;oD AgentSmith

Thanks for the link drawbridgep....I'm going to have a little fun with them now. wink

Hey, AS, i wish i payed $60, when I bought it it was $180 as upgrade from B4, so I do not consider my personal copy a toy, lol !!!

bwaaaaaaaaaaahahhahhahahahaha! SUCCESS!

He likes to sound important and well-informed. He doesn't use a 3d program, judging by his website. And I'm guessing that the Pittsburgh Chapter of International Game Developers is him-and-his-dog ROTFL

I don't think you can assume that everyone there thnks the same as him - after all - he has only been a member for less than a month :) - and I love your picture

I think if someone is always putting down Bryce, he is insecure as hell with his 3dsmax or Maya skills. He's got the crazy idea he's better than a Rochr or Hobbit since he's got the $3000 prog. I agree that if you're gonna post pics for review (other than here) say you did it in Max or something. Then, after they give you praise, tell em Bryce is your bitch! LOL...

occudog is wise :)

Think I'm going to post one there as well, just for the fun of it :-)

It's funny, for years I've avoided flame wars and the like but I'm sitting here with an evil grin on my face looking at Zhann's posting and waiting for the sparks to fly. People who can't see that the art comes from the artist and not the program deserve to get egg on their faces when their pretentions are exposed.

Well, being a 3dsMax user myself (and having a Bryce background), I have to say the person who left the comment is most likely thinking strictly in terms of "working in the industry", and not regarding the artwork in question at all.

The reason I say that is, the only validation someone should have to criticize another for working in an app like Bryce or Poser is the fact that having skills in those applications will not land you a job in a major studio or movie FX house or game developement company, where having a career in the 3D industry can earn you a comfortable living.

Before someone spins what I'm trying to say as being yet another anti-Bryce/Poser argument in itself, let me just point out that I drop by this forum because I still feel Bryce is a great 3D program, being used by talented 3D artists, even though I had to eventually move away from it (not by choice) for production purposes.

THIS is where the perceived bias comes in, and how it's easy to spot a professional 3D artist who's making legitimate crits from a wanna-be who's simply trying to sound important.

Professionals usually don't frown on an image or animation simply because of what program was used in it's creation. They will simply critique the image/animation on it's own merit, and point out any esthetic flaws that might be improved upon. Wanna-be's, who are still in school or trying to break into the 3D visual FX industry, will ALWAYS frown upon someone working with lower-end applications because they have the common but mistaken belief that EVERYONE working in 3D endeavors to land a job at ILM, Pixar, Dreamworks, or LucasArts. They think that everyone should learn Maya, 3dsMax, or Lightwave, because those are the apps that can land you a job at a big name company.

Most of the wanna-be's can't get their head around the idea that some folks simply enjoy 3D as a hobby, or perhaps have no intention on working for someone else, but instead wish to start up their own small company (like I did).

For me, the quality of a piece of art has NOTHING to do with what program you used, and any crits on such an image or animation should not begin with a bias to that factor. I made the move from programs like Bryce to what I'm working with now (3dsMax) for the simple fact of productivity. While working with Bryce and other programs some years ago (non-professionally), I decided to start my own small, indepentant company dedicated to graphic design and 3D illustration for print and advertisements (more currently moving into animation and game developement as well). We do everything from commercial website design (2d) to technical 3D illustration and compositing for commercial print advertisements that have appeared in internationally distributed magazines, etc. Since making the move to a more complete 3D package, I have found the production rate and output speed to be much more efficient than can be done in most so-called "low end" apps. This isn't a bias, it's a simple fact of the way things are as of right now. If future editions of Bryce incorporate a more efficient, production-capable renderer and toolset, then I may consider using it again if it would enhance my workflow.

Anyway, the thing to do has already been mentioned. Simply do not state what application you have used to make your art unless asked. If you state what you are using, you're going to predispose your art to bias. No way around that.

:-)

Zandar, you rock.

Right on the money Zandar,8)!!!!!!!! Cheers GG.

Oh, man. If you knew how many of those ive got at CGtalk... :) Although that one, i think, was a nicer way to put it. However, in almost 99% of the cases, its people who dont know how to use the app. Theyve pushed some buttons for a few weeks, couldnt do a thing and imagine they know everything about Bryce. And then there are those whove never even tried the app, heard how bad it is (from the dont know how to use it-people), and therefore they think it sucks. Even more clever... Although i can agree with some of the things Zandar pointed out, but not everything. "the fact that having skills in those applications will not land you a job in a major studio or movie FX house or game developement company..." Not true! Ive got several offers. Blur (where even Tim Miller admitted using Bryce now and then), Meteor Studios, 2 gaming houses in France, and a few more , all thanks to what ive done in Bryce. Granted, i would be working with other software, but thats not the point. It was the work made with Bryce, that got their attention. You will never get away from the fact that some people imagine, that if you have a $10000 app, youll automatically spitting out masterpieces and get that job at ILM. But in the end, what matters is talent and imagination, IMHO drawbridgep has a lot of it. Keep posting there, and dont let comments like that put you down. :)

"Granted, i would be working with other software, but thats not the point. It was the work made with Bryce, that got their attention."

Actually, I think the point is clear... it was the work made by YOU that got their attention. Doesn't matter what software you may have used, clearly you would be an asset to any company due to your talent. :-)

To clarify, I didn't mean having talent in Bryce is going to hinder you from getting a job, I meant having knowledge in the application isn't something paramount to getting hired at large studios, as opposed to having a good working knowledge of the more commonly used "professional" apps, since many companies do not offer much in the way of training.

But nothing replaces sheer talent.

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 05:26

OK,.....I don't usually get into flaming, I usually try to use humor to difuse the situation, but this pusillanimous self-important knuckle-dragging little poofter has got my Irish up. Hey sport, I didn't have to take out a second mortgage in order to buy Bryce. I didn't have to buy 30 plug-ins to do what I can do with Bryce. If in fact he bought whatever "real 3d app" he uses and didn't download it from a peer to peer network in the first place. Ohhhhhh,....this rots my socks. Sorry to be so hostile but geez,.........When I first saw your image drawbridgep I spent the next 10 minutes banging my head against a wall saying "Why can't I do work like this, like this, like this".

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 05:32

:P This was my reply on that forum... "What Blaine seems to miss is that many people uses 3d prog to create an image as a form of art to EXPRESS themselves. I, for me, don't care less if for attaining my goal I use Adobe Photoshop, PSP, Poser, Bryce or a photocamera... what interests to me is to express myself - and if I'm not able to model a pretty realistic bric or a rusty nail and I have to download it from some freebie site, so it is... After all, Helmut Newton doesn't builded all the buildings or fathered all the models he photographed - but no one denies his photographs are ART... "

Zandar, I think were on the same level here. :) What i wanted to point out, was that the big studios arent the ones bitchin about what software is used. If people have the talent, itreally doesnt matter what tool theyve used. Naturally, having knowledge of the industry apps helps, but its not always necessary. ps. still love that bike of yours. :)

We're definitely on the same level, Rochr. I just should have been more thoughtfully articulate in the way I phrased that sentence. ;-) Funny story: I recently upgraded to 3dsMax v6, and one of the things I noticed almost immediately were the new architectural objects (AEC Extended) that includes a plant library. The first thing that came to my mind, even now, was to export one of them as OBJ to see how it would look in Bryce. LOL. Alas, I didn't have my old copy of the program handy though. :-(

wakes up hey! what's that about getting your Irish up? how dare you insult the Irish c'mon, I'll fight you with one hand tied behind my back..............

Good morning all. I've woken up to this and feel much better and the funny thing, he was critiquing the application rather than the art and I felt more defensive about that. :-) I like the fact a few of you have posted to the forum. :-)Zhann has posted one of her's without saying it's Bryce. One so so comment so far. I would comment, but that might give the game away. So many great comments you lot have made here, it's hard to comment on them all. I'm not looking for a job in 3d Art, I'm just having some fun. So like most of us, I can't warrant spending $5000 on an application that's not gonna make me a better artist. As for not naming the app when I post. It's a shame we have to do that. We should be proud at what we've done with a $60 application. I'm a Brycer and I think I will always be a Brycer. Long live Bryce.

Had some more comments, this one really got me...: "In your defence, that doesn't look like beginner work, but it is a stereotypical look. We all have to go through various stages of stereotypical stuff before developing our own style." In my defence?! Did I say I was a beginner? Are they assuming that I'm a beginner because it's my first post, or because I'm using Bryce? Stereotypical?! I am SO done with that forum.

I seem to only get the dreaded red X on images at that site. Poopy! wanders off pouting

Take a look at the reply that the dude Inkworm wrote... it is so full of arrogance that makes me sick... :P Stupid elitist.

Roobol:
Your pic is showing up as a little red x although I can see Drawbridge and Zhann's pics.
After reading the comments I have to say that the commentors there are so commercial art oriented (and I like commercial art, but only for its esthetic value) that they could not recognize artistic talent or art for art's sake if it bit them on the tushie.
Which makes their comments worthless. Their only outlook is, if it's not perfect, get a more expensive program. Sheesh.

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 13:43

I offer this from a1m1m25.... "In your defence, that doesn't look like beginner work, but it is a stereotypical look. We all have to go through various stages of stereotypical stuff before developing our own style." .........and you can see what he's producing now that he's gone through his stereotypical stage at his website http://www.ajcgi.co.uk/ ;o) Aaaaahhhhhh to be young and arrogant! rotfl

We have to remember to discuss topics here and the comments they make and not the people themselves. To start ripping their art apart makes us just as blind as them. We're the bigger people afterall.

due true drawbridgep. I know im jumpin in a bit late, but I had to go see for myself what "they" could do or consider excellent work. truth is its not the programs or even the artist that r the issue. its a mindset that seems to be unavoidable. let em have there muck. After previewing what they consider art (and shall we look at what they consider humor...all at a lose minus monty pythons) Im not impressed with em. personally I think it takes more talent and creativity to work with bryce than some of the more expensive programs.
Head held high no matter the verbale beating (there just jelouse anyway)

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 16:09

oops man i need to find a good dictionary seems like these days lol