OK,.......I don't usually like to cause trouble,(restraint of pen and tounge and all), I mean that is drac's job(calm down drac, just kidding), but is it just me or has the Hot 20 been invaded by Poserites ? Seems like an unusal number of votes over a short period of time(less than 12 hours !)and is this what we have to look forward to since Daz bought Bryce ???? I find myself wishing Microsoft had bought the thing ! Don't mean to offend anyone but oh well. Doesn't Poser have a render engine ? Hey,....if I do a Poser pic will y'all go vote for it ? I'm thinking of naked Vicky with enormous breasts and a sword,.....whatd'ya think ?

It's been done....to death......again and again.....:) How about a naked LaRoo?

How about if less than 10% your gallery images are in a particular gallery with most others in another gallery, you may not vote for images from your 10% category? Naw thats a stupid idea.

How about a nekkid robot on a mountain?

Yes, this is what you will be expecting now that Daz has bought Byrce and pushing their Poser content with it. As for me...I don't do nakid Vickies as many others here do not also. So to lump all Poser people as doing that sort of thing is not really cricket. smile

this thread will receive my henceforth standard answer regarding poser and bryce: i see dead poser ppl Drac

I hear ya and understand your gripe. I use poser in bryce often. Sometimes I post it in the Bryce gal, sometimes in the Poser ( Poser has a render engine, but I never use it.) But my main thought to your post is this; Is the bryce rendered poser work that is in the B h20 good work? If it is, then I have no probs. Anyone that knows me from the past knows that my pet peeve is hack work in the h20. I will take 20 good bryce rendered poser people in there over 1 hack work image done 100% in bryce in the h20. I see importing a poser figure no different than importing a 3dm or obj model from the web. Like the millions of buildings that are used (downloaded from the web, made in another prog) and textured/rendered in Bryce. jmo. -Bruce

There was a problem in the Fractal gallery about this too. One big Poser model and one little fractal posted under the guise of a fractal. They said "No More" and clamped down. Along with PSP tubes of kitties and puppies too. All that has to go to Mixed Media now. If you don't do it, it will be done for you! It's easy to do this with fractals. The fractal programs are not so intertwined with others like Poser and Bryce.

Poser figures are almost always in the Bryce Hot 20. But, yeah, since DAZ bought Bryce you will; *now NOTICE figures in the Hot20, whereas maybe before you didn't. *And, yeah, by default, there will probably be more Poser figures rendered in Bryce in the Gallery, lol. And, the Bryce gallery and the Hot20 goes through periods of having a lot of rendered figures, to hardly any figures at all. AS

Personally, I think if it was rendered in Bryce, it should be in the Bryce gallery. Likewise for Poser.

Bryce renders a LOT better than Poser. I only do this as a hobby and even I can tell a big difference.

And why, if I happen to enjoy creating images of a naked [insert your favorite character here] in a [insert your favorite location here] with a [insert your favorite weapon here] does that make me less of an artist? Not that I'm trying to put my skills on par with all the REAL artists I see posting on here. Everyone has their own idea of what makes a good image. Granted, there are better places to post such things, but as long as they're here, I'll view what looks good and pass on what looks bad, or, in some cases, done to death.

Art, by its very nature, is subjective. You won't like everything you see. But please don't lump all Poser users together and assume we all exclusively post naked women in seductive poses with implements of destruction. Yes, I DO create images like that, but I also do other things as well.

I'm not trying to start a war here, just offering my two cents.

My problem isn't the importing of poser figures into bryce. I mean if you limited the importing of poser figures, then you would have to limit the importing of all models, and make Bryce strictly for landscapes only, using Bryce trees. ((cringe)) But what bothers me really about the poserites (your words not mine) Is the fact that most use Vicky, and they all look the same. You may change the pose a bit or give her different colored hair, but in the end they all look like Angelina Jolie...I mean are those breasts really believable? Most all pics I see where theres a a poser posed vicky look like she has silicone implants. God what I wouldn't give to see like a pregnant vicky. Or maybe welfare mom vicky :-) Single mom with 4 kids vicky... I have nothing at all against using Poser or any other software. But It would be so nice to see it changed up a bit. Those are just my 2 cents worth...

Hyth, Agree, if you want to waste an hour.. you can look at the poser gal and you will find a few of what you are talking about. But there aren't many. I'm with ya on this one.

"Bryce renders a LOT better than Poser. I only do this as a hobby and even I can tell a big difference."

What you're seeing isn't a cause/effect of how good/bad the renderer is, because the P5 Firefly renderer is based on PRMan, which is one of the best renderers money can buy in the 3D world (albeit not the fastest at certain things).

The quality of renders is based almost exclusively on the artist, and their willingness to know their app. Bryce users have turned their application inside out over the past few years, learning everything they possibly can about what it does and how far they can take it. Most Poser users do not get nearly as involved in their application, and instead choose to postwork the majority of the needed effects.

Firefly is perfectly capable of producing high quality stunning renders every bit as illustrious as Bryce or just about any other renderer. The problem is, it's harder to get to that point because Poser tends to put up roadblocks to achieving what you want, and 99% of it's users aren't willing to fight through them (it could be a tough struggle). Also, Poser still doesn't have network or distributed rendering, so very few people will want to wait for what could very well be a rendertime long enough to make Bryce rendertimes seem cutting edge. ;-)

If you want evidence of what is actually possible with the Firefly renderer and P5 materials, just look up some professional galleries done in Pixels3D (their renderer and materials are basically the same thing as what's found in P5, just under a different name, with a few additional features). Message edited on: 09/25/2004 00:04

I would also have to agree with Hythshade, the so-called Poserites are often clonely, you see one, youve seen them all, like stick figures in a childs drawing. Almost like copy and paste except with different clothing and in different poses, very artificial looking and not at all Brycian except for an extraordinary few.

This discussion of what constitutes a Bryce image has been had here many, many times before. On the one hand you have the Bryce purists who create and construct everything using Bryce then you have others who create, model and import their own objects using other programs in their arsenals and then you have those that download pre-made meshes from other artists to incorporate and create their scenes. But the issue of using Poser figures has always been a controversial and contemptuous topic in this forum. I guess now that Bryce has been bought out by DAZ there will be a lot of teeth gnashing, tongue in chick comments and eyes rolling.

I personally think that this should lend itself to creating better images containing believable figures and the aspiration to interweave the programs seamlessly to an artistic end of a high quality.

[God what I wouldn't give to see like a pregnant vicky. Or maybe welfare mom vicky :-) Single mom with 4 kids vicky... I have nothing at all against using Poser or any other software. But It would be so nice to see it changed up a bit.] I did a poser pic once and deliberately included flaws for realism (slightly large nose, etc.) The comments I got were along the lines of, "excellent texture, but her nose is too big" "gorgeous hair, but she's not very attractive. I think it's the nose or something." sigh Oh well, I tried, LOL.

Indigo, what do you mean, "you tried"? Why not again? If you see they misundeerstood your purpose, ignore them. Sackrat, for instance, Zerospace is what people would call "clone art". Imported Poser figure and so on. But the idea and the POV are great. Okay, it might not exactly be a Hot20 material, but that's another matter. Or you were thinking about something like Ready for Battle? Hm. Yeah, I see your point. But it's still quite well done pic.

Is it not possible for the PTB to add a new gallery set-up for Poser/Bryce hybrid images? The onus them would be on the artist. If the image is a poser image, but using bryce as the render engine, then it could be posted in this new gallery, and if it is a bryce image with imported poser figures which are not the entire reason for the image, then it would still be a bryce image. I haven't explained that very well, but I am sure you can get the drift of what I am trying to say.

I understand where you're coming from chohole, but really I think it wouldn't change a thing. You would just get the same complaints about the art that makes the Hot 20 that you currently get in the Bryce gal. It would just be about the art in the Poser/Bryce Hybrid gal. Then the Bryce gallery would probably dwindle away to not much at all.

"What you're seeing isn't a cause/effect of how good/bad the renderer is, because the P5 Firefly renderer is based on PRMan, which is one of the best renderers money can buy in the 3D world (albeit not the fastest at certain things)." I can't speak for Firefly, I have Poser Pro Pack. I have seen some Firefly renders, and they ARE superb. Also, as I stated in my previous post, this is just a hobby. I don't have the time or patience to milk the program for everything it can do. I just didn't like getting grouped together in a category. I'm also sorry to say that I must agree with several other opinions about Poser images that have been expressed here: A lot of them DO look alike. While I enjoy seeing top heavy women in scanty clothing no real woman would be caught dead in, it would be refreshing to see something different.

Didn't you know it's a plot to take over the 3d world? We the Poserites will take over every gallery till no-one stands in our way then we will be masters of all digital art HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! But seriously you can blame Daz & CL for this, they're making it so easy to put poser figures in pretty much any rendering program that poser can't fail to rear it's ugly head everywhere.

Just curious...if you feel the use of common Poser imports detracts from the picture or artistry then how do they get into the Hot 20?

I don't think anyone is saying it detracts from the picture, It's just that you can definitely see a difference between a pure Bryce Image, and a Pure poser image. The question being asked is that line being blurred since Daz3d the Poser giant has purchased Bryce.

"common Poser imports" I don't really believe they exsist. People might as well be angry I used one of draculaz meshes in one of my renders, imo. ;o/ (I bet that statement makes drac SO happy, lol) An imported mesh, is an imported mesh, imho. ----- "Is it not possible for the PTB to add a new gallery set-up for Poser/Bryce hybrid images?" I had suggested stuff like this before, but its a no-go. We now have the genres in which pictures can be arranged within a gallery. ----- And, to point out the Poser gallery accepts pictures of figures rendered in ANY program. So, brycers can easily post their figure renders in there no problem if they want. But...I myself feel that, in the Bryce gallery should be scenes rendered in Bryce, period. I wouldn't really want someone importing their Bryce-made terrains into Maya, rendering them out, and posting them in the Bryce gallery... Just my opinion. ;o) AS

Quest - "tongue in chick" - you taking a swipe? ROTFL I use Poser figures as background props, but have to say that I find most Poser art boring. Just my personal preference. I find it difficult to find time to browse the gallery at the best of times, I'd give up altogether if I had to plough through a lot of arrangements of Poser/Daz content. I think that chohole's suggestion is well worth looking at, it could avoid a lot aggro/fights/flame wars further down the line. How difficult could it be to lay down understandable ground-rules? The Bryce/Poser gallery will flourish, and the rest of us won't have so many thumbnails to trawl through. Between all of us here on this forum, we surely could come up with an easy-to-grasp definition of where the line lies, between 'Bryce scenes with some Poser props allowed' and 'Poser scenes that happen to have been rendered in Bryce'. My vote goes to investigating chohole's suggestion before people start losing their tempers and insulting each other - we've all been here before lol

Btw...some of our best Brycers use or have used DAZ figures in their renders to some extent... hobbit, beton, Flak, Sking, alvinylaya, jjsmlee, nergal, Rochr, etc. It's always how well you use your content, no matter what it is, or where it came from. AS

Right, on, AS! :) You are gonna see more "poserized" bryce images from me from now on too (traitor I am, lol), my best friend bought me Victoria 3 as a birthday gift in DAZ store, go figure, lol, but I'm sure I'm gonna customize her in my own SILO way to suit my needs !!! :)

"An imported mesh, is an imported mesh, imho." -AgentSmith Exactly. My personal opinion: If you don't want to see Poser figures in Bryce renders, don't look. It's usually obvious whether they're present or not from the thumbnail image. This argument reminds me of people who want the government to censor television. If you don't like it, don't watch it. John

lol how bout a crack addict vicky,pawned her sword for little reflective meta crack balls.

actually, I've seen a pregnant Poser morph out there in my travels, but can't remember if it's for Posette, Vicky, or someone else..if it's any consolation, I've been making Bryce terrains and using them as backdrops for my occasional Poser pics..so there!..;) Frankly, Bryce just is so much easier to work with Poser as far as materials are concerned; when's the last time you saw a freebie for 'lace textures for the torus- note, won't work on cubes or spheres?..;)

Just to be real picky, Pixar Renderman (PRman) is a render system ($$$$) from Pixar, used in such films as "Finding Nemo". And yea it's a world standard but it's definitely not Poser's Firefly renderer. What I think Maxx meant to say is that it's Renderman compliant but that's not a render system but a technical specification for interfacing between modeling and rendering programs (http://www.renderman.org/). I'm not sure that Firefly is even that, although one could say that since Poser exports to RIB that it is. As mentioned Firefly is the old version of a renderer offered by Pixels3D and most of the Pixel3d images are done with the newer version, which I think is a vast improvement over the old one, both in speed and features - especially greatly improved displacements, better refraction (which is rather poor in Firefly) and quasi radiosity. My biggest problem with RMan render systems is that most of them use the Pixar REYES render engine (circa 1984) that was primarily designed for animations and which sacrifice accuracy (not quality!) for speed (like soft shadow mapping which is a 2D blur effect). They don't do refraction,GI,HDRI,etc and only reflect a single "enviroment" image. For these they need to add in a raytracer on top of the REYES engine. Cornel raytracers (like Bryce and Vue) use models of real world physics (soft shadows are created by taking the standard "point" light and added up to 256 clone lights around it, which creates a much more realistic effect albeit much slower) which I greatly prefer. Best; Dan

<---(Blushing) ROFL, sorry, it was a slip of the tongue, a typo. I meant tongue in cheek or better: tongue-in-cheekmust have been a Freudian slip. Thanks for pointing that out Pogmahone. I was trying to infer that some Brycian viewers dont take most Poser figures seriously since they are often unrealistic looking and plastic and find it a detractor from the overall image but would comment favorably but dishonestly.

To make my point and not to be offensive in any way let us take as an example the Poser image offered us by Baufeld in this thread, as a Poser image in the Poser gallery it may get rave reviews, personally I think that overall its a good image with much work on the hair and the clothing is wonderful but for the life of me I cant figure out what the hell hes looking at! Although the general pose is good, people never pose like that in real life with that catatonic, stiff stare looking out into space with that blank expression on his facewell most people I know dont anyway, but its a Poser trait and give-away, that is my point. The background in this image is excellent and wonderful work and could almost stand on its own but the figure imposes itself by taking center stage as Im sure was the intent. As a Poser figure image I would judge the image as great but as a Bryce image (he did post it here), good would have to suffice. My thanks to Baufeld for his art submission and hope he takes no offense but rather accepts my praises.

Btw...some of our best Brycers use or have used DAZ figures in their renders to some extent

Yes, this is what I meant when I said artificial looking and not at all Brycian except for an extraordinary few.

Poser figures, generally speaking, seem to lend themselves better to the image when they are placed in the distance where details become blurred from view as in a long POV battle scene for example. To make a Poser figure look realistic up close and personal is very complicated work and quite difficult to accomplish. But there are a few artists that can accomplish this task. The human eye is very unforgiving when viewing the human figure particularly the human face with which it is so very well familiar. A structure in an image may get away with the illusion of being true and real to its image but the human figure is often very well scrutinized and flaws are often magnified.

In my view, to create artistically believable and acceptable Poser/DAZ figures in a Brycian environment should be the challenge in keeping with the mergence of the programs. By this Im not suggesting in anyway that we must all incorporate figures in our works but those that choose to, should sincerely strive towards artistic believability. This is not to say that cubists, surrealists and impressionists are not allowed. :)

Whether or not a separate and distinct gallery or sub-gallery should be established is another matter. Perhaps some deliberation on this topic would be helpful in supplying some answers to this question.

Seekingempyrean: if you feel the use of common Poser imports detracts from the picture or artistry then how do they get into the Hot 20?

They get into the Hot20 because Renderosity is largely a Poser community and they vote their own in whatever forum gallery they may be in. Some, but few, are genuinely good and are worth the vote and the Hot20.

BTW, in the original Poser 4 manual on page 143, we have a pregnant Poser figure used to demonstrate the Deformer tools.

Message edited on: 09/25/2004 13:56

I think what blaufeld was trying to show when he kindly contributed his artwork as an example was that while many poser users do use the same model in much the same way as many other artists, he was showing that other physical attributes can be achieved if taken the time and interest to do so. Which I feel he conveyed nicely. With that being said I would have to say on the subject of believe-ability, Many, and I do mean many artists brycean images are certainly far from believeable, some of mine not withstanding. Say for instance when artists use a light source, and it shows it came from a cone shaped lightsource. The light has hard edges like when coming through an archway. Light wouldn't look that way irl. Bryce water is one of the best examples of being unbelieve-able that I know of. Almost no bryce artists add falloff to the bodies of water. It looks flat and plastic. My point is that just because you use bryce over poser, doesn't make it more believeable. And now I think I've single handedly kidnapped Sackrats original thread, and changed it's original question... I'll shutup now.:-)

OK,........boy did I open up an unintended can of worms. My point was that the 2 images in question could have just as easily been rendered in any 3D app,.....and that they recieved an awful lot of votes for an 8 - 12 hour period. There was no Byrce element readily apparent in either image(IMHO). Could have been rendered in Poser just as easily as Bryce. Seemed like an "Ohh, I'll render this in Bryce and get 9 of my friends from the Poser gallery to go vote for them and show that I am a Bryce Master also". Just my perception, petulant as it was. So render it in Poser and leave the Bryce gallery to Brycers ! Heck,....I use alot of Poser figures in most of my images too. Like I said,....just my perception,......Hey, I was in a crappy mood,.......happens to all of us from time to time. Sorry for any ruffled feathers.

Earlier; Hythshade: But what bothers me really about the poserites (your words not mine) Is the fact that most use Vicky, and they all look the same. You may change the pose a bit or give her different colored hair, but in the end they all look like Angelina Jolie

Good gosh, I cant stand Angelina Jolie such a phony.

Hythshade: I think what blaufeld was trying to show when he kindly contributed his artwork as an example was that while many poser users do use the same model in much the same way as many other artists, he was showing that other physical attributes can be achieved if taken the time and interest to do so. Which I feel he conveyed nicely.

Perhaps Im not making my message clear. Im agreeing that most Poser figures do look alike although one can change their hair, clothing and pose as you state in your first comment and although Baufelds image is an excellent example that an artist, taking the time can change the physical attributes of the figure, it remains that one can still tell that its a Poser figure. I dont mean this as a detractor to Baufeld in any way, after all, the artwork was created to compliment the Poser gallery and well it does. I could just as easily pointed to most any Poser image and drawn the same conclusion but his happens to have been within this thread and therefore convenient. On the other hand many Bryce renditions can be put center stage and many could pass as photorealistic, a very difficult thing to accomplish with Poser figures but IMO, not impossible.

As for importing figures and objects from other programs I have no problem with if it serves to enhance your image and materialize your vision. As Ive said in other threads, the photographer is no less the artist because he barrows the objects of his images from outside sources to compose his art. All graphic programs are candidates for the artists toolbox. My thinking is that now that DAZ owns Bryce, we will inevitably see more Poser figures in the Bryce gallery and an effort should be made to challenge our skills to incorporate the two programs to attain a higher standard if we are so inclined. I personally do not cherish the thought of going to the Bryce gallery only to see image after image of droid clones one after the other. Some creative artistic responsibility should be exercised.

I just looked through the Bryce "Best Rankings", and 35 of the top 50 included Poser figures. Go figure. Coldrake

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=169343&Start=1&Artist=SnowSultan&ByArtist=Yes

AS - there isn't a DAZ figure in any of my pics (so far), but thanks for mentioning me in the same sentence as the other guys there. Lots of base poser figures, but no DAZ stuff yet (though I do have an unused MilDragon on my HDD for the last 10 months).

Message edited on: 09/25/2004 18:26

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=539515&Start=67&Artist=beton&ByArtist=Yes

"That body could have been a snapshot of mine (from about ten yrs ago and 20 less lbs ago)"

I think the breasts (at least) in that one actually ARE from a photo, and pasted/blended into a render. The texture just doesnt seem to match the rest of the body. Of course, it's impossible to know for sure without seeing a wireframe. Message edited on: 09/25/2004 23:16

About 5 years ago I bought Bryce 4 at Best Buy. I cant draw, paint, or do anything in any other artistic media. I figured getting every thing laid out and letting the computer do the drawing would work for me. I sat at computer trying to figure out how to make really cool pictures. The only references I had were TV and movies. I wasnt really learning much. Then one day, again at Best Buy, I saw Poser 4. I thought, hey, I need to be able to make people to put in my pictures instead of using 2D images. Couldnt afford it at the time but I later decided to look on the internet to see if I could find a demo or something. What I found was Renderosity. Been here for a couple of years now, and although the time I can spend at the computer is fairly limited, my ability to use Bryce has grown profoundly. (have since gotten Poser4 and Bryce5)

Many of the Poserite images in the gallery annoy me. Some of the landscapes annoy me. Many of the abstracts annoy me. Some of the model/technique showcases annoy me. Thats fine. This is a community of individuals, who, as individuals will have different opinions of what is right/wrong, Bryce/not Bryce, art/the most useless waste of processor cycles.

Because of DAZs purchase of Bryce, more DAZ and Poser models will make their way into Bryce pictures. This is not the problem, if that were the problem, it would count for any imported item. For the most part the problem lies in the texturing and use of those models. Its not about realism, its about consistency. Finding Nemo, Shrek, Toy Story, none of these are realistic, they are however gorgeous. As more users import people into Bryce, the techniques and styles will grow and expand. I strive to make a good picture. As I cannot make a person be photo-realistic in Bryce, I dont try. Instead I focus on making sure that the person looks good, and that the style of the image is consistent.

I dont make my own models or textures. I do assemble different elements into a scene, and let Bryce render the scene. Call me a collagists. Are you a modeler, texturist, post worker, settingser? We all produce art.

My current project is still in the poser stage. Im getting 10 models into position for import into Bryce. Once in Bryce, Ill do some heavy modifying to the material settings, and add a simple environment and complex lighting. I also intend to add an element which will challenge both my own, and Bryces ability. I dont know if I can pull it off, but Im going to try.

When/if I finish the picture, I will be posting it here, in the Bryce Gallery, because I am a Brycer. And I am the only one able to decide that.

The fact that this forum is much more friendly and helpful than most others probably helps attract poserites also.

Thanks to everyone for the comments! for Quest - yes, I know I still have probs with realistic figure poses and expressions :), and, for Hythshade, yes, my intent was demonstrating that is possible to tweak both the facial and the body characteristics of Vicky and obtain, as in this image, an older looking male figure...

Xenic101: When/if I finish the picture, I will be posting it here, in the Bryce Gallery, because I am a Brycer. And I am the only one able to decide that.

The fact that this forum is much more friendly and helpful than most others probably helps attract poserites also.

Well, youre right on both accounts. No one here said you werent a Brycer. Your efforts in your work will be self-evidentiary and speak for themselves. We as a forum would be proud to have such diligent and creative artists amongst our midst. We, in turn expect to learn from you. Im saying, there are people who feel that they can just toss something together and call it art even if they put in minimal amount of work of their own. Sort of like a TV dinner, toss it in the microwave and well call it a gourmet meal.

Its not about realism, its about consistency. Finding Nemo, Shrek, Toy Story, none of these are realistic, they are however gorgeous.

Absolutely right, they conform to their genre and perhaps I should have applied cartoonists to the impartial list of: This is not to say that cubists, surrealists and impressionists are not allowed. But there are so many other artistic fields, which are not mentioned such as illustrators and designers that I could not mention them all. Everyone is free to practice their form of art but please, make it so, is my request!

Baufeld: yes, I know I still have probs with realistic figure poses and expressions

Yes, I know, me too! This is why I very seldom use Poser figures. Thats why Im saying, and not that yours fall into this category, that to get away from cookie cutter Poser images we must strive towards a higher end, otherwise well flood the galleries with druid clones and when newcomers see the clones getting into the top pics its open house for them. I dont think thats what we as a community want to aspire to. Its not a bad thing to entice people into creative work but it should be emphasized that artistic creativity is the end product.

Stop Ang, youve already got my fascination up! It looks like my body just 5 years ago 50 lbs. lighter and thats what I call artistry! Or was it 50 years ago and 5 lbs, lighter? ;)

"AS - there isn't a DAZ figure in any of my pics" Lol...oh look again. Those figures in your renders, exported out of Poser?...they were made by DAZ, who used to be known as...Zygote. True. ;o) (Zygote split into two companies some time ago. Zygote still handles very high-end models and movie work, and DAZ now handles the consumer content.) AgentSmith

Cubist Poserman Ponders this thought over a drink....

LMAO! That is funny to be sure, and a great parody! I'll take a drink also. Primarily I assume most people know what cubism is. It certainly doesnt mean everything looks like a cube. Spanish artist Pablo Picasso is our modern day progenitor of the style which signifies objects in motion as his most famous painting llustrates Guernica, done during the German bombardment of that town in Spain during the Spanish revolution in 1937 and for the first time in recorded history, civilians became targets in modern aerial warfare. The abomination led him to paint his now famous oil on canvas picture. It has become the 20th centurys most understood antiwar symbol.

Ooops, yeap, you're right lol. I had forgotten that zygote had done the figures for P4 (RDNA had something to do with the p5 figures didn't they?). I didn't realise that zygote had split into two separate companies so thanks for that bit of info (thought they had just changed names to DAZ).

It escapes me what RDNA did for Poser 5. Whether it was just clothing and accessories or any figure work, I forget... AS

you mean actual input into the program, or just the great stuff I download and never use?..;)

I think RDNA had something to do with the content creation of poser 5... I had an idea they may have done figures, but not too sure...

NikitaCreed, Syyd Raven and Xurge did a lot of stuff for the content CD. I also think that Syyd did the textures for at least Don. BTW, I'm reinstalling Poser for about the fifth time and cursing Curious Labs. Damn thing! I have no idea which update to put in, and which not. And I have to finish a paying picture. Just tweak the face. Just...