Attached Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6124163/

I don't own and have never played the "Sims", but it does seem that at least a Million people have lined up to buy a game that lets you design your own characters and create video animations with them (rather easily).

So I wonder- is the "Sims 2" a form of Competition? Or a stepping stone to future customers for DAZ and CL?
Hummmm...

Forgot to add that the Sims overall has a combined sales (the original Sims and its numerous expansion packs) of over 41 million units. Not too shaby...

You're comparing apples to oranges. Two different items selling to two different markets. Sims allows people to create characters, yes. But the creation is rather limited. The game's primary draw is the ability to watching the characters 'grow' and 'evolve' and interact with other characters through 'life'. Poser allows people to create characters, yes. But its main draw is as a tool to create art. There's no game in the program besides what goes on in the artist's mind. No real comparison there. Two different concepts. Two different target audiences that just happen to have an overlap in interest.

lol -- This same set of questions was already raised in an earlier post, too...

The one other "overlapping interest" is SEX- as in nude girls, etc. Apparently Sims 2 also allows their characters to have "relationships" -in a form of realism not possible in the previous version. Plus there isn't the hassle of frame-by-frame rendering- its a "direct to video" deal. Take a look in the Renderosity store and see how many products are in this overlapping interest category...heh! As far as art is concerned, that's actually why I use Poser. And I don't do any animation with Poser either- so Poser meets all my personal needs. I'm not a Sims customer. I guess I'm just always fascinated by Pop Culture and what seems to drive Mass-Market appeal...

It really is fascinating stuff, Veritas. And your enthusiasm for it is contagious ;)

The Sims is the bestselling computer game in history. It's hardly surprising that the "version 2" of it is selling like hotcakes. The Sims isn't very much like Poser. About the only thing they have in common is human-shaped 3D figures, and perhaps a sense of "playing dolls" for some people. I've done both. I don't currently have The Sims installed because I find it very addictive and I go on Sims binges where I get nothing done for several days at a time. Mind you, I also go on Poser binges, but at least then I've got something to show for it. ;-) bonni

I will admit to having bought the Sims 2 game. And having visited some of the many fan sites, I see there is already a huge demand for more "content".

Poser merchants might want to consider using some of their considerable talent to make new textures for Sims2. The clothing items use trans, and bump maps, which should sounds awfully familiar to us Poser people.

Furniture collections and textures will also be in high demand, once there are the tools needed to make and import them into the game.

The Sims advertises itself as being the #1 selling pc game of all time. I don't know how true that is, but there are a lot of sims maniacs out there. I was one for a short while. It is very addictive, but it gets to the point where there's not a whole lot more you can do. Relationships were possible in the first game as well - of all lifestyles. But it wasn't a very plotted out system in the game. After a while you could have a kid, but i don't think it ever grew up. My sims always died of boredom. Or I'd drown them in the pool, just cause it was funny. (make them go swimming, then take away their ladder. hehe). Funny thing, Sims Online bombed. Or at least that's what I kept hearing. So I never tried it. But you could create your own items and decorations for the sims. So I'm sure they'll incorporate some tool set for doing the same thing, probably to a little more advanced degree, for Sims 2. I don't understand the difference between Sims 2 and Sims 2 DVD Rom version, which costs a fair amount more, from what I hear. But, there is a lot of potential for creating video games that are similar to the sims, from poser people and items. I don't think it would be much fun if it weren't an online game where you could interact with others. But still... Ever since I started really getting into poser I've thought about how cool it'd be to be able to turn the people I make into characters. Imagine the worlds that could be created.

Attached Link: Link to Slashdot article

Yeah, that's Grand Theft Auto territory...

Attached Link: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thesims2/screenindex.html?page=1

Attached Link: http://thesims2.ea.com/about/videos.php

"Sims Online had very odd social issues that sprang up when you got lots of people playing in the same imaginary city. Protitution rings. crime gangs, all kinds of stuff." That's telling something about the human mind, isn't it ?

A degenerate Sims society? It just sounds like what many people would probably do in real life, left to their own devices. With the increasing popularity of internet interaction and games like Sims, I wonder if some of the science fiction writers were accurate. Will we see a future where people become homebound blobs, confined to high-tech loungers with feeding tubes and direct brain-to-web interfaces? Will they eventually reach a point where even interacting through their 3D avatars is too much effort and they simply exist by watching the avatars and "live" through their cybernetic proxies?

"The Matrix was not forced. Mankind went willingly"

"homebound blobs". mmm.. That's uncomfortably close to my own description. Where can I get a direct brain to web interface ?

A degenerate Sims society? It just sounds like what many people would probably do in real life, left to their own devices. Yes, that's what the social science researcher in the article was looking into. :-) bonni

Got to consider that in the sims as well as other online games and poser renders, there are no real consequences to your actions....so folks who might not have a prostitution ring or rob and pillage are able to do so through their computer without fear. Your Sims char might go to jail or get shot but wth, just create another. 8^) Never played Sims, but my daughter used to love it, and beta'd the online game. She said it was pretty bad, boring mainly. Marque

I don't know about the homebound human blobs thing, but I can easily see some of the ideas that were presented in films like 'Demolition Man' come into being, like the virtual reality masks they used to have sex, eliminating the majority of the threat of std's. Probably not in the very near future, but based on the way technology in the virtual reality realm is developing, a similar concept is doubtfully very far off. "Will they eventually reach a point where even interacting through their 3D avatars is too much effort and they simply exist by watching the avatars and "live" through their cybernetic proxies?" Some people are almost like that now. I've played online games for 6 or 7 years now, and some of them were so addicting that I pretty much lost interest in anything going on in the real world. working was a pain because it took away from my game time. That's just sad. Then I have a cousin who nearly went to prison for deserting the navy because he got so addicted to an online game that he started skipping work for days at a time. Even now, I spend more time online than I do in the real world. My family pokes fun, when they see me leave my room, they joke that I've actually unplugged for five minutes.

"Where can I get a direct brain to web interface ?" It's an upgrade from the basic package--Blob-O-Lunnger, feding tube, waste removal, drool cup and a 1 year supply of liquid gruel. "so folks who might not have a prostitution ring or rob and pillage are able to do so through their computer without fear." True. I'm really not worried that 'Joe from accounting' is going to go out and try to become Super Pimp after playing the Sims. I'm more concerned about young people who are growing up on a steady diet of increasingly realistic violent roleplaying. There are too many factors involved perhaps to single out one innovation such as games but... For some reason, in the days of the little red schoolhouse with ready access to guns and presumably putting up with bullies as well, kids didn't seem to conclude that the solution was shooting up the place. The question is are games like GTA merely a "healthy outlet" for kids, or are we breeding hordes of the living brain dead whose solution to the homeless will be setting them on fire? At any rate, I've got dibs on Vicky for my stable of virtual hookers--gotta keep this Poser related :-)

I agree that the violence in games is growing more intense with practically every new release, and there probably has to be limits drawn somewhere. But on the same token, I'd much rather see little jonny beating the crap out of some guy on a video game than see him do it to his neighbor, or the guy at the gas station because he didn't like the guy's clothes. Kids aren't as mind-numb and impressionable as people like to push them off as being, to make excuses for why something they don't like should be removed from the general audience. Anybody in their mid to late teens and definately young adults and up know the basics of right and wrong. Its which set of rules they choose to follow that makes the difference. I don't think that bashing joe shmoe's brains out in grand theft auto teaches kids that its okay to do that in the real world. Even the games that have that kind of stuff have consequences in the game. Violence isn't going anywhere. Taking it out of video games and off the television isn't going to prevent kids now or in the future from seeing it, and taking part in it. Its a double-edged sword. Plus, the reason its in video games and on television is because its what sells. Its what the public wants - at least, the public that game developers use to base the content of their next smash hit on. Its sad but its a fact. I still want a video game that uses customized characters and items like poser. 8-)

Um, did you really drown your little simmy people in the swimming pool? Love esther

I think there is a considerable overlap in the two markets. I got The Sims before I got Poser. I didn't like the game at all. Stupid and boring, IMO. Doom 3 is more my style. :-)

What I did like about the Sims was the ability to make my own virtual worlds. I'd have enjoyed the game a lot more if I could just do that, and not have to worry about tedious stuff like getting idiots to the bathroom on time.

Poser turned out to be much more what I wanted, and once I got it, I stopped using The Sims. But not everyone can afford Poser and the content for it, and not everyone has the patience to learn to use it. The Sims has a much shorter learning curve.

In many ways, Sims users remind me of Poser users. Yes, some like the game, but a lot of users seem to want to use it the way many of us use Poser. They try to make their characters look like their dream man or woman, or like celebrities, including modifying the mesh, designing special skins, hair, clothes, etc. There are nude skins that eliminate the "blur" around the naughty bits. They use hacks so they can pose their Sims in certain positions (many of which would not be allowed in Rosity's gallery). They make "graphic novels" that may be hundreds of pages long, all illustrated with Sims screen shots.

Yes, the Sims is very limited. But eventually, I can see it evolving to the point where it can do a lot of what Poser does, more easily.

And yes, selling content for the Sims 2 might be quite lucrative, if it's allowed. Prices would probably need to be lower than for Poser content, but you could make it up in volume. People who are willing to pay a buck or two for a ringtone would probably be willing to pay a buck or two for a Sims skin.

Message edited on: 09/29/2004 06:15

"Kids aren't as mind-numb and impressionable as people like to push them off as being..." You're right, most aren't and the (hopefully few) that are have and always be with us. I do think it's something we need to be aware of though. As always, technology is way ahead of any serious thoughts about its long term social implications. Who imagined a few years ago that the internet would be used to pump jobs overseas? I'm pretty much against censorship but I do favor favor age restrictions. By the time Johnny reaches a certain age, he's probably decided whether strangling prostitutes is his thing or not. I'm not totally sure about his kid brother though. Of course, the biggest problem, IMO, is the parents who spend so little time with their children that they're surprised that the kid was making pipe bombs in his room. Poser figures in games would be neat but I think it will be a while. Let's see what the game designers can do with the new 64 bit CPUs. What I'd like is a simple scripting language for creating Poser animations, something with built in primitives like walk, run, pick up, etc.

I played the sims a few times, but I get easily bored with it and ended up just wasting my money on the games. so now i spend it wisely, on Poser stuff lol And I can make my poser character grow or shrink, and I don't have to worry about the cost of living for them lol THe Sims is kewl for those who like simulation games. There are other games out there like it on-line one called "There" and another called "2nd life" and yes I've tried those too, but I guess simulations like that aren't my type of games, because I always get very bored with them. ---Essie

The sims is a game, which is why it sold more than poser, and all you can do is create game chars and worlds. I don't see the comparison at all. Marque

my concept for my "poser people" game would allow you to create your own environments, worlds, events, consequences, etc. One group of people playing might want their world to take place in 1995 new york, while another group might be weilding swords in some kind of fantasy land. It would be a very customisable game where you could either create your own environment to live in or join one that someone else created, following their rules of course. the poly count would have to be lowered of course, but we have video games now, and have for a while, with 3d models. the abilities are there to do it. a 64 bit system would make it much easier though. and yes esther, i drowned my simmy people. not all of them. just the ones i didn't like, or the ones that lived in houses that i wanted my sims to own. try it, its fun.

Drowning simmies to get their property. Is this 'Sims the Uday Hussein Edition?' The basics are probably there. We have CAD programs, terrain generation programs, Poser, jillions of models already created. It would all need to be radically simplified though with prefab building parts and an easy way to combine them, perhaps something like the old Canoma application that could generate a 3D model of a building from photographs. Maybe the ability to choose an architectural style and have it generate one or several different buildings in that style, who knows. The same thing with the figures. You don't need all the dozens of dials Poser figures have, but enough in combination to create a lot of unique people. You'd probably need some kind of dynamic object technology that could switch from simple texture mapped objects for distance viewing and add all the 3D detail if you say walked into a building. And, of course, everything has to be "intelligent." After all, why waste cpu cycles on collision detection to keep characters from walking through walls if they know not to walk into them to begin with. Well, maybe the pieces are there but I'm not sure anyone but Microsoft could afford to create it and God knows how much they'd have to sell it for or how many people would buy it. You'd probably need a whole lot more than 10 million units just to break even.

There is a shortage of animation features for Poser. I'm talking in terms of prepared animation poses that are readily available. Both Sims and Poser are very addicting so any potential cross-over would be great. If they were to come up with a game engine that you could interact with Poser figures as you can in Sims I would definitely buy it.

The biggest hurdle right now in sims2 content creation is that its encoded, and right now, EA isn;t poroviding a editor, or allowing content changes. They tried to wine n dine many of the sims content sites owners for sims1, and wanted the umbrella them all under EA's roof, and scoop up all the money to be made by those people themselves, and they all balked out of that.. so EA just decided to not provide an editor, or any means at all for importing any current 3d content. I suspect they will pvide some sort of online store themselves, and maybe expand into something like Daz, with PAs, and provide them the editors, unless customer pressure (which is mounting daily) forces them to release creation info, and editors. My wife LOVED the sims1, and more used to to design homes, and allow her sims to enjoy them, and while they procided lots of content already in sims2, it's no where NEAR what it could have already grown to with editors, and a strong online community eager to creat additional content.

I have to admit I might want to drown my poser figures in the pool sometimes...

I'd love to make Sims2 content, but like Garree said, right now you can't. we need some clever people to crack the format. ;-) I make and sell Sims1 content, let me also add that sale aren't all the hot compared to Poser stuff. I got into it pretty late though, maybe they would be good for when the program is new and hot.

Jim, do you know what the polygon count is for the Sims 2 figures? I saw a site for a German game called Singles which supposedly uses the Sim engine and claims characters with up to 30K polygons which sounds high.

"Anybody in their mid to late teens and definately young adults and up know the basics of right and wrong." yep. The problem is that real life is much more complicated than the basics allow, and when you run into something you can't handle, you go the easiest route -- for kids, that's going to be what they know. But this isn't the place for a diatribe on social mores of parenting. The Sims is absolutely a wonderful market opportunity. The game idea mentioned above may be what Veritas and others have commented on several times before -- an easy animation program. Hmm. And there's a lot of work being done on the Poser animation toolset...

I think EA is making a big mistake. The user-created free content you can download off the net is a big part of the appeal of the game. You can put Britney Spears or Capt. Kirk your house. (Which EA can't touch, due to copyright issues.) You can add new furniture and other props when you get tired of the ones that come with the game. It makes the game a lot more interesting.

Kind of like the free levels and mods for FPS games. They keep people interested in the game longer. And they don't keep people from buying the commercial expansion packs.

erm... ok... whats this got to do with Poser? Poser = 3D art program Sims = a game. posts about sims = do not belong in poser forum. why? they ain't poser. I know I'm gonna get sniped at. but hey! some little rulesmith's wanted it this way.. so..

It's a comparison of Poser and the Sims. There are similarities (and will likely be more in the future).

Anyway, last I heard, OT posts were allowed in the Poser forum. Unless they changed it back again?

I count Poser used 37 times in 37 messages--not counting the relevance query, discussion about improvements to Poser, uses forPoser figures, possible future directions for Poser...

please show me where Sims2 is used for 3D art work or is connected to Poser / Curious Labs, or how Sims2 is actually a 3D package in disguise? it's a game with pretty scripted graphics and has nothing to do with Poser. simple.

If the Sims would look like Vicki I would get it.

This topic isn't entirely OT. Its a comparison of sims and poser, and the pros and cons of each. I don't see why it would be so difficult to come up with a point and click system of animation for poser characters. Say you want miss vicky to walk from one side of the screen to another. you click her, then click the point you want her to walk to and she does it. its a series of animations, which is like a cartoon flip book when you boil it down. it would probably have to take place outside of the poser studio though, so that might cause problems. but, you build a game from there. first get the figure to walk. then get them to interact with objects - which probably requires the objects to have dynamic values of some sort. picking up a ball for instance would probably require that ball to have collision settings. actually i guess the figure and the ball would have to have collision settings. i'm not a game programmer so i don't know the details. but it starts with getting them to walk. then getting them to pick things up. making objects have solid surfaces and weight would be a good thing for poser, and programs like it, anyway. would be much easier to get your figure to sit down and actually look like he's sitting down, if the chair was solid, instead of having to make sure his butt is right in line with the illusion of the surface of the chair. I'd imagine all of this is along the same lines as that program that 3dsmax has developed where you can create customized characters, objects, levels, etc of current games. i forgot what its called. from what i understand though, there are certain games that are being released that have the expansion capabilities built into it, so its compatible with the customizing program from 3dmax.

"please show me where Sims2 is used for 3D art work" One of the many pitches they used to promote sims2 was about being able to make your own animated movies with the characters you grow in sims2. animated movies and still images. that alone makes it similar to poser.

I have been daily Posing for over two years now - and still can't get enough. I got bored with the original Sims game in two hours - partly coz I had just got a nice house with guinea pig and piano when the man burnt the dinner, the guinea pig burnt to death in the resulting fire, the fire brigade turned up late coz the woman was in the doorway wetting herself and then the man ran out and didn't come back. Not much fun really!

ROFLMHAO

The 3d people in the sims2 arent half as good quality as the poser people (even the default ones) so poser will become like the sims 2 if there is a major downgrade in poser in the future. My short answer is no.

The 3d people in the sims2 arent half as good quality as the poser people The reason is polygon count. Poser people have way too many polygons to move in "real time" in a game engine.

please show me where Sims2 is used for 3D art work

How about this:

http://www.pkelite.com/scrapbook_popup1.html

It's sort of a graphic novel. A lot of the characters are custom, made to resemble actual people. Mesh tweaked, special clothing, etc.

No, it ain't Poser. But people are using it for some of the same purposes.

I have no way of telling the poly count, but I'd guess (from the way they bend) that they approach the low end of the poly count on Poser figures, maybe 5000-8000 polygons, compared to the Posette's 16,000. My Sims1 f1gures go about 3000 polygons, for camparison, or a little more, that is for the whole thing, head, hair, clothing, shoes and accessories, the Maxis ones are about half of that. About 10,000 is maximaum for the Sims 1, and anything close to that really starts to slow the game down. The Sims 2 figures do bend pretty nicely though, even the hair, which can't be bent on a Sims 1 figure. They don't have any poke thru, either, of course, as the clothing is part of the figures mesh, just like the old Poser 3 figures. They must have a much better file format than the Sims 1 uses, the later only has some pretty inexact position modification at the vertex level to allow for bending. Anyway, if the Sim2 format could be opened up so we could make content for it (and I want to make figures, not furniture) it would be a nice outlet for Poser content creators, I'd guess. People had already been using Poser stuff in the Sims 1, including my hair, which is what got me intrested in the game.

Mystic mind I realize that the sim polygon count is different than poser and why, I was just pointing out that for graphical use poser is much better and veritas777 suggested that sims 2 was the new poser and I was just saying that it isn`t.

Message edited on: 09/29/2004 20:50