PS:I do think these Big Cats have promise...but DAZ should never have released them unfinished and if they considered them good enough because they can be fixed later,thats the wrong way to do business and I would say to the supporters of Daz that they really need to look at this because its either a sign DAZ is sloppy with little Quality Control or they're greedy and think your're stupid...these can clearly be much better when you compare to Lynes cats and there's no reason they couldn't make them as real as Lynes. Well,then again maybe Lyne's just a super talent and no one but she can do it and do it right...whatcha think guys;P And Lyne...will keep praising you til you blush,just remember the name is A-r-m-o-r-b-e-a-s-t if you ever feel generous;P

Well,then again maybe Lyne's just a super talent and no one but she can do it and do it right...whatcha think guys

Could be. I really like the MilCat, and the DAZ textures are nice. But I have to say, Lyne's free "Travis" texture looks even better than the ones DAZ sells. It's my favorite.

I wish I could make textures that look like my cats, but they won't stay still when I put them on the scanner...

It does look better like that buddy...but the mane loooks painted which was what I referred to when I said it looked rough.A lions mane should always look solid as it might on a lion statue or you should be able to make out the individual hairs...here they look clumped as if brush strokes were used. Not saying you painted...its just the way it looks.But does look a lot better than before.

Don't totally blame the mane. I desaturated the color in the image of the lion and decreased the lion image's contrast to make the lion look like it belongs in this picture. Also added grain to the lion image to match the background picture. The mane untouched has more detail. The mane is still not perfect but it makes a good start. Hopefully, sometime in the future a high rez texture pack will be released for finer detail.

Message edited on: 10/15/2004 18:33

Well I hope so as well but I do have a question there because isn't it standard practice to release a high res with the main product and low res with a cheap intro item? I still have hopes this product can be fixed but I don't buy into this idea of fixing it after its release...that lets DAZ off too easy as they hoped to make a lot of money now and then fix it at their leisure and thats not right.The Big Cats have way too many flaws to consider that anyone would feel it was ready for release. I feel sorry for the buyers and the people who were working on this as I don't think anyone was being honest about what was going on here.Exactly who were the beta testers on this project?I would never have ok'ed this and if I were testing and DAZ ignored my conclusion...I would take it to the forums and make them pay attention. Lyne not only proves it can be done but I have seen images where her cats have that realistic snarl that all cats have...maybe it was postwork but it looked accurate to me~noticed in the DAZ forum this was more or less brushed off with the statement "its all I could find" regarding the nose wrinkle on Big Cats.I also noticed what looks like a seam line on the back of the cougars hind leg...have looked at many big cat images since this happened and I don't see such a line on real cougars hind leg...can you check that as I mentioned it in the forum just to query over there and was ignored.

Armorbeast, DAZ seems to always release a base figure with base textures and then releases high res texture packs either right away or sometimes later. You may not like this practice but if you check their website you will see that this is true for all their main figures. If you buy V3, it's default texture and eyes looks like total crap. You buy (or make your own) higher res texture packs and you get a more realistic figure. You are definitely correct in saying that no texture maps that you buy from a professional merchant should have any visible seams in final render, like many of the DAZ Big Cat Renders I have seen. Quality Control should have made sure that this was never released this way.

Message edited on: 10/16/2004 01:01

"What happened here is simple,DAZ could not have missed all these problems...under normal circumstances the product would be sent back to be worked on almost anywhere else,but DAZ knows its members are very forgiving and in fact for all their follys,one of their greatest selling points is how quickly they fix their mistakes." The members aren't forgiving. The members are told to put up and shut up, as was the case with the milhorse, which is still crippled. The fixes were inadequate on the horse, what makes you think the cats will be any different? I just started to laugh when I saw those cats. I knew before ever going into the forum that there is going to be a thread at least 2 pages long with 'this is wrong' and 'Big Cat Anatomy doesn't / isn't able to...'. I was right. "Quality Control should have made sure that this was never released this way." That's precisely what we said about the horse.

Working with 3D animals is harder than humans because one, people usually have more familiarity with humans, and two, 3D animals may move differently than real animals due to the way they ended up deciding to rig them. You need to work with the model and learn it and the learning curve may be steeper for some than others. Having reference photos on hand will help tremendously. Test all the joints and see what they do and how they work with each other and affect each other. Have fun with them, but realize some work is involved to make them look realistic in the movements. These images have little to no postwork on the figures (the tongue was painted due to lighting on the tiger, and color correction was done to all to better integrate with the photographic backgrounds). Cris The Queen of the Savannah The Queen of the Rockies The Empress of the Jungle

Thanks for posting these images. Unfortunally they do confirm what I feared, these cats do not fit into photorealisting surroundings. While the proportions and poses sure look much more convincing now, it's the cats themself that just don't look real at all.

Well, also remember that I made a point to say there was little postwork on these particular figures. They were also created fairly quickly. If I postworked them, you wouldn't see the difference. Some can argue that you shouldn't have to, but realistically, the photo was taken under certain conditions that are hard to duplicate within a 3D program. If you were to use 3D terrains and flora, you'd stand a better chance. if you are going to try and put them in a photographic situation, then there is work to be done and you use the models as an underpainting. Cris

but i've seen non-postworked photo realistic pictures of v3. i've seen them of v2 and m2. i've even seen some of p4. none of your pictures, which are nice, even vaguely get close. lyne's wild cats do. her maps alone are worlds better. she's one person. this had a team. there's no excuse. and if postwork is the answer, well, then why don't i save my money and work with the free dd tiger or the old panther and lion? if 3rd party morphs are the answer, then my response is the same. i guess i'm just going to hope that cubed picks up the ball daz has dropped.

Certainly, that is each person's individual decision. The comment was that they don't fit into photographic situations and so that is what I addressed. Would I turn these in to a publication for printing as is? Not if they were for illustration work. I am not trying to compare these models to any other. That is what you do for yourself because it is your money that you are spending. If these models do not do it for you, at least it is good that there are others to choose from. All I can do is try to show these models to the best of my ability and in this case, was trying to show them in as raw a render state as possible for people to assess the model and not my illustration skills. Cris

The only postwork I do are some special effects (like lightning or so) and get rid of an occasional small rendering error (like skin going through clothes). I agree with cobaltdream, if the figures don't look right rendered, there just plain old wrong. Most of the DAZ figures I do have look just right rendered without any postwork, these cats just don't look right.

I've already seen a couple of postworked images with the cats and the cats still didn't look great. Let's face it, they just don't deserve the Millenium brand at all. And for sure they aren't worth the price at all, knowing that the free tiger I've got looks much better (with and without postwork).

So don't come on to me with postwoking excuses, these cats just don't cut it, they lack quality big time and no amount of post work will change that. They need to be good from the start. You're not going to buy a new car with a badly done paint job, do you? Sure you can redo the painting work on the car, but you want it to look great without any postwork! Imagine this car sales man stating the new car (that has a bad paint job) would be great if you'd redo it. Bad sales tactic....

DAZ can defend the cats all they want, but we all know there just not good looking at all. Just go over to your own forums at DAZ and you'll see how many customers aren't happy with it at all. As for comparing them to any others, since they've got the millenium brand on them we should compare them to the others with this brand and they just don't deserve it. DAZ should compare the stuff to others, to ensure we get the best quality we deserve, after all these cats aren't cheap. By calling them mil cats customers do expect a certain quality and the cats lack that quality.

Message edited on: 10/16/2004 04:03

"The comment was that they don't fit into photographic situations and so that is what I addressed." Well, they should since most of the other Mil stuff does and I'm expecting the same quality for the complete Mil collection. As a customer I'm trusting that anything that DAZ brands as Mil ensures a certain quality. Perhaps DAZ shouldn't have branded them Mil, then our expectations wouldn't have so high.....

Let me rephrase that. The comment was that they don't fit into photographic situations....and I responded by saying what I would do to make it work for me. I forget how easily people read into things that are said in posts if I am not more specific...my apologies. Personally, I have never seen a non-postworked 3D piece that I would not want to do something to with painted postwork. That is simply my opinion, as is all that I say. I'm just trying to show that, to me, the cats, can look good. And as I said before, in my profession, that is only the first step. There is no piece I would ever turn in to a client without postwork. That's just the way I work. Postwork is not an excuse for me, it's my livelihood.

lyne's wild cats do. her maps alone are worlds better. she's one person. this had a team. there's no excuse.

I think part of the reason for that is that Lyne distributes her work only via CD. No downloads. That means her textures can be larger and/or higher res. I think she said her wildcats package just about filled up a CD. Can you imagine DAZ trying to sell something like that, via download?

i guess i'm just going to hope that cubed picks up the ball daz has dropped.

I do think there's an opening here for someone. I know I would pay for a really good horse model - one that looked real, and was embraced by the community, so there was lots of stuff for it. I don't think the MilHorse is it. There's not much stuff for it at all.

It seems to be a fairly common thread showing here..just about ALL the DAZ Mil Animals (by that I mean where they are trying to be multi-breeds) suffer from the same faults. No matter WHAT you do..a "one-size fits all" approach to different species/breeds just doesn't work. I feel folks would be much happier if they'd just produced a Mil LION, or Mil TIGER..not someting thats an aproximation of both. If they were GOOD meshes, with REALISTIC texures..Folks would buy..

Yes they would buy! I was thinking the samething, making the different cats separate meshes.

Cris_Palomino, youre posing and pictures are very nice and show what a talented person can do even with these kitties and I thank you for your posts of the pictures: )

The best view of these cats is the side view and I have noticed Daz did a good job with the muscle lines on the sides of the body.

The faces are a disaster! I think someone had said they looked like stuffed animals which is true. It makes me want to learn to model.

I am a member and very regular customer of Daz and aeilkema you are right about what we expect from the mil name.

When I first herd about the project I thought great! Hey I thought there are some pretty good big cats out there, so I thought to myself...and imagined better versions than ones I knew of and got excited! I mean if you make something that is already on the market your goal is to make a better more advanced one right?

Message edited on: 10/16/2004 10:07

They should have been listed as another set of Toon Animals and everyone would been satisfied. :) They have a lot to be desired if they are to be Mil Animals. :)

I really want to let folks know that the only reason I could do my Wild Cat morphs and maps of that quality is that the DAZ Mil HOUSE CAT is the best model I have had the joy of using in a long time! I am not sure who made it, but the quailty of both the mesh AND THE MORPHS INCLUDED is outstanding, allowing me to DIAL most of the wild cats!! I only added a couple of additional morphs like ear tufts. I had to learn to map in "rug layout" for it, but the model was so beautiful, I was willing to put in the work! And no, the set does NOT "fill up a CD".... We only provide shipped CDs for many reasons besides the large size of most of our sets. Many of our sets are very large for other reasons besides our high quality maps - we have vue and bryce versions included, etc. I just want credit where credit is due- to the person who made the mil house cat. I am not sure if it was Anton or? I just wish the same person had done the other mil models. My true love of Poser models has always been MORPHS AND MAPS... models are HARD to do and very time consuming. So again, high praise for the creator of the mil cat model, that allowed me to have the pure joy of creating the Wild Cat textures. I did buy and TRY with the mil dog, and failed. I was so hopeful for the mil horse and this big cat, but...! And to be honest, between the group of us who did the morphs for the poser horse, and my own morphs and maps for the Poser Lion and the DAZ mil cat for my wild cats, they do the job. And thank you very kindly for the compliments and links you provided for me, here! Lyne Lyne's Creations Vista Internet Products

Michael Lane did the MilCat and it is a very fine model, yes. He'll be very happy to hear that, Lyne. Cris

I'm wondering if the reason the MilCat is such a fine model is because-- compared to the dog and the big cats-- it is limited to a fairly basic shape. I could be wrong, I don't know very much about models. I'm also one of those who would greatly prefer a Mil Tiger, a Mil Panther, a Mil Puma Jaguar combo. Instead we get a one size fits none Mil Big Cat.-- Lions are not much my thing anyway and now they all look like awkward clumsy lions. There was also a big mistake in what is important about Big Cats. The immense nobility of the Lion, tiger, panther HEAD is crucial. This was completely lost except in maybe the Puma. What makes the set sad, to me, is the feeling that it was released as something that was "good enough." Not the best, not great, not wonderful-- just sorta good enough to put out. I hope I'm wrong. But, to me, the set is shrieking "almost, kinda, sorta, this stuff is tough to do, you know." We waited for the cat cause that was hard to do and we were very pleased. We'd wait again. Maybe. Emily

I would also like to point out that this Big Cat figure has many head and body morphs. It would be interesting to see others who are truly talented with working with morphs try their hands to try to get what they believe are the best of the breed type (an idealized male lion, lioness, tiger, cougar,leopard, etc...). I agree that the promo pics by DAZ where absolutely ugly and aweful. Lion's head and eyes look so dumb. I would like to see what a talented effort by those of you that are so good at working with morphs can do. If the answer comes back that there truly is no way to make a reasonable type of Big Cat breed then I will definitely believe that they are beyond hope. Maybe, someone will come up with good morphs (maybe even a package), that will be a great thing for all of us.

I was expectant when the release of this figure was announced...I work a lot with African scenes, so this was a package I was sure to spend some hard earned cash on seriouslly, if it was good. Alas, my face fell when I saw the parody they had come out with... And if its so hard to make a combo lion/tiger/leopard etc. in one mesh, by all means make individual meshes. Simon Combs, a great painter would cringe at the sight of this figure. Seriously, Daz has a lot of good stuff out...this one is bellow expectations...