Hello everybody, There has been quite a bit of controversy surrounding the "Hot 20" feature in the galleries. We would like to thank everyone that has taken the time to share their concerns, insights and suggestions regarding this area. We appreciate it being brought to our attention. As a team, we think it would be helpful to clarify...What is the purpose of the "Hot 20"? The "Hot 20" is for entertainment purposes only. It is so members can vote for images they like, if they wish to do so. Not because someone asked them to. It is not a competition, a challenge or a contest. Members are strongly discouraged from soliciting votes as this practice alienates other members. It is one thing to enjoy being in the "Hot 20" when the votes are genuine and come from someone that decides on their own to vote for an image. It is another thing entirely to actively recruit votes in order to get an image in. I hope this sheds some light on what the "Hot 20" is and what it is not. We will continue to monitor this area. Best regards, LillianH Renderosity Marketing & Promotions

I always thought the hot 20 was for the 'best' of the best. Thanks for clarifying that it's not...

What it is: A place where friends can vote in other friends works, without having to even like the image they vote in. What it's not: Any kind of messure of the highest quality artwork posted at Rendo. (incl. lighting, composition, materials, creativity.)

Message edited on: 11/10/2004 14:31

Yep, have to agree with Striving especially when one artist can have one, two, three or more images listed in the 20 at any given moment. And it's pretty much the same artists all of the time and pretty much the same people voting for them over and over. Not saying they asks for votes either, it's just the way it is. Clique-ish. But that's okay, I'm not posting my stuff with the hopes it gets into the 20. If something of mine gets in now and then, great. If not, I still get to share what I love doing with the rest of the Poser addicts who stop by to view my work and comment on it. Now that makes me happy!

Fly, I am with ya. And I can say I have had more than a few of mine in the H20. Its a nice gesture to me. But I dont put a lot of weight in the the h20 anymore as anything more that a popular artist showcase now. I will survive..lol.

Same for me. The only thing that bothers me is being told that it is not a "popularity" thing when in fact it is and very plain to see. At least when one of my images gets into the 20 I know it got there on its own merit. Ah, I will survive, too. Hey, that's a good song ya know! Heheh.

I'm not against people having several images in Hot 20. If the images deserve it. "Members are strongly discouraged from soliciting votes as this practice alienates other members." Lillian, you cannot prevent it except by appointing yourselves as the judges. And that invalidates the whole point of Hot20, ain't it? Besides, it's not done in the way that somebody publicly says "You vote for me, I'll vote for you". It is cliqueish - friends voting for each other, people returning the favour of somebody voting for them, people voting for other people whom they think are nice persons... That's people being people. The only way that I can think of is what we did in Bryce Forum: actively going through galleries and voting for images that looked good to them. (And I've never had any image in Hot20, AFAIK. Go on, people, cry "sour grapes." I know that my pics are better than half the stuff that appeared there.)

Sour grapes! Ya know I had to do that. Wow, Erlik, what great photographs in your gallery! I really need to expand my gallery wanderings, missing out on awesome stuff.

Personally, I think the Hot20 should be the 20 most viewed images (from individual IPs that is). That way, it's based solely on hits vs votes. However, I suppose, trying to track the number of views would be too hard to code into the system considering some of the reasons other improvements are shot down. Also, considering the content of the most popular images, it may detract from the "Family Friendly" environment.

Cyber, the problem with that is, any thumbnail with a nude woman or breasts in it will get the "most viewed" everytime. Thats the downside of it. I think 90% around here want a change (h20), but I dont think R will ever concern itself enough with the Hot20 to come up with any resolve of the abuses. On voting, and asking for votes, Erlik is right. "it's not done in the way that somebody publicly says "You vote for me, I'll vote for you". I think in a couple years here I have seen maybe 3 people actually pander in a written way for votes for an image. Its an mostly an unseen thing that goes on, or, Like when people comment on an image and end it with "V". Meaning.. SEE, LOOK AT ME, I AM VOTING FOR YOUR IMAGE, Wink-wink. LOL -B

Meaning.. SEE, LOOK AT ME, I AM VOTING FOR YOUR IMAGE, Wink-wink. I always look at this as being a sign that someone is impressed enough to vote for your work......

Bryster, then we see it differently. Didn't mean to offend. Its just one of my pet peeves.

Striving: No offense taken.

"Cyber, the problem with that is, any thumbnail with a nude woman or breasts in it will get the "most viewed" everytime. Thats the downside of it."

My point exactly by it not being "Family Friendly".

However, the only way to pull it away from being a "popularity contest" is to prohibit, in as much as possible, the abuses that make it so and to, somehow, increase the population of the Community participating in it (which will help squelch "ballot stuffing"). They could always exclude any that have the "Nudity" flag from the running, if they desired, just like they could limit the genre or any other identifying attribute.

It can be done, but it takes planning, coordination, and work, which will probably stop it from being done since it most likely doesn't contribute enough to the bottom line to make it a worthwhile investment in time and coding.

I find the "Hot 20" pretty useless and quite pointless. I think I've only bothered to look at it a few times, and only when someone deliberately directed my attention there (not by asking for votes, either ;-). Of course it's a popularity contest. It's about whose little clique can be rallied the most effectively to vote, for the most part (there are exceptions, of course; I've seen images that I know for certain DID get into the Hot 20 honestly and on their merit rather than by voting clique). bonni

I think this topic is a double edged sword. On the one hand if you remove the hot 20, people's work goes un-noticed for the 15 minutes it was actually shown on the front page. If you keep it, people are always gonna be unhappy with images that are obviously sub-standard in comparison to thier own. It seems to me that no matter what you do to fix this problem there will always be those people that will be unhappy with the results. If it's votes by views people will gripe that only the nudity pics are winning, If you let the admins judge, then it's obviously only gonna be thier friends that when every-time. I just think it's time for everyone to stop beating a dead horse...

I just think it's time for everyone to stop beating a dead horse... Don't be silly. It's Renderosity. Beating dead horses is a time-honored tradition around here. bonni

YES,,, lets stop beating it. AXE the H20

How about just beat it to death? LOL

Sorry if this has been beaten to death already - I don't really look at this forum much. With the hot 20 being what it is, I've always wondered why the Poser main page "Cool Images" isn't updated more. Wouldn't that be a place for some of the best to get noticed? But it seems it is never updated.

It's a shame we can't get a few impartial 'judges' to run the Hot 20...failing that...a downloadable 'Honesty' pill that would stop the stuffers and sycophants. I'm constanly amazed at how some 'inferiour' art reaches the h20. Especially when it would be obvious to a 3 yr old that a particular piece has no place being there.

The Hot20 when I first started here was based on the views and it was much messier than the current system. It only took a fake thumbnail or the promise of big boobs to get in there. It had a lot lower signal to noise ratio than what we got now.

The solution to me seems simple after some thought, though I'm sure I'm going to stir up a hornet's nest by suggesting this. All that has been mentioned above (such as having a hot20 by views, comments, rankings, votes) are all covered under Rosity's current Top 100 Most Searches. What makes the top 100 different from the Hot20 is that it has no date range, covering what has happened since Rosity began. Artists who are popular, prolific and been here a long time, are favored perpetually, giving little chance for other artists to break into that ever. As time goes on, the collection at the top will become more and more narrow belonging to only a handful of artists. I think anyone who reaches that plateau should continue to be honored. It is quite an accomplishment. What I'm suggesting is not to get rid of the top 100, but by adding date ranges to it, you give people the option to get the top of yesterday, last 7 days, last 14 days, last month, last year, or as it is now, since the Top 100 began. This will open up a lot of artists to be seen IMO. It would also seem to me that this in place of the Hot20 would solve a lot of the grumbles on which way best suits the viewers' choice.

My 2c
ShadowWind

I like that idea SW :) I rarely go to the H-20, unless Im drawn there by some new hoopla going on, and want to check it out for myself..

I like the idea of the Moderators picking the Hot 20.

Hot 20 is for me the "mostly mainstream boring stuff". ...with a few exceptions...

oh boy just today I was talking to someone about this very topic and how nasty it has gotten as of late. the thing is yes. there is some that are ALWAYS in the top20 no matter WHAT they put up. BUT there are also peices in there that do deserve to be in there. It IS a double edge sword. personally as the Mods and Admins have tons of stuff to do already perhaps geting a handful of active members a month to do the judgeing. randomly. like geting a PM. We would like to invite you to judge the top20 for (insert gallery here) this (month,week etc). kind of like jury duty LOL. the artists arent going to know who is up to bat so to speak. and there will be a mixed bag of people doing the judging. ~shrugs~ just an idea. I use to go to the hot20 to take a look till it started to be just a couple of artists in there everytime no matter WHAT it was they posted. it lost its value then. I go now and then to see if anything is new..but that is all.(sometimes geting disappointed when a piece I would see in the gallery that was exceptional didnt get in,there is one that stands out that was a scene in a tavern with a wench..the work was exceptional but saddly I didnt see it in the top20) The top20 has lost its effectiveness.

The Hot 20 has always been about ego stroking here for the most part, and it's pathetic, because it's unrealisticly biased and based on butt kissing.
The Poser Hot 20 is the worst for this, always has been and always will be.

My solution is simple and I assure you it would WORK.

Everyone that gets their Poser artwork into the Hot 20 here, also gets their work posted for a wonderful complementary critique at this website.. http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/

All the egos would fly way out the window in a flash; you'd probably see many folks doing all they could NOT to get into the Poser Hot 20 ever again.

We honestly appreciate everyone's input and ideas on this topic. We will keep these options in mind going forward as we keep an eye on this situation. The "Hot 20" has evolved over time, and I am sure it will continue to change in order to serve us as a community the best way possible overall. We hope with communication and understanding some of the core concerns can be remedied so we can move on to matters of greater importance...such as all the holiday festivities for everyone to enjoy! ;-) Best wishes, Lillian

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1975810

Wow, is this in all the forums? http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1999958 (same topic) and it was also discussed, at length, in http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1975810 BTW, ShadowWind - I had a similar suggestion which I emailed to admin@renderosity.com and posted in the thread I linked (but I'll re-post here)... Response: "57. Re: go ahead.......crucify me....... by cagewench on 10/24/04 19:16 [Delete] I know jack all about coding and such but I am wondering if it would be possible for all comments made to NOT say who the person is who commented BUT once you have at least 3 comments from ppl who are NOT the creator of the work then below all the comments it could reveal: comments were posted by the following members listed in alphabetical order (then list the members) Also, perhaps not revealing the ranking until the poster has 3 comments from other ppl would help too. Perhaps then, ppl would be more inclined to give true constructive criticism rather than worrying about ppl getting mad at them or ranking their work poorly for revenge. Ive seen this sort of thing in all sorts of different online communities over the years and thought this suggestion might be helpful. Also, add a new ranking: This is an improvement on previous entries by this artist might be a good thing for some of the beginners in the graphics sections. **As for the Hot 20**, well, that seems a lil more difficult. Do we really NEED a "Hot 20"? We've already got the "Most Viewed" link, perhaps though the "Most viewed" should have a bit of tweaking... **Most Viewed** subfield: by day, by week, my month, by year and all time viewing ??? Just a thought from a newbie (who not only knows jack squat about coding but also knows jack about graphic art except what I like and what I don't like) :>" *gonna edit to try and fix the format of this reply* Cara-Mae

Message edited on: 11/12/2004 09:51

LornaW,
Art is a very personal matter and why people do it varies as much as the images themselves. I create images because my life is a very painful one, and I find it to be great therapy to entertain the viewers of my work. I've had images in the Hot20 and I appreciate the fact that people enjoyed my work enough to put me there. I have no illusions that I am a fantastic technical artist, just as I have no illusion that I'll ever be Brad Pitt. That's the great thing about Rosity, versus other sites. You don't have to be a Hobbit level artist to participate here. Whether one is looking to have a career in 3D or just does it to escape real life, there is a place for them on Rosity. And it's refreshing, because many artists really put their hearts into an image, rather than just churning out what the industry says is worthy. I think people respond to that. As you pointed out, there are plenty of sites to get harsh critiques (though raph.com is a poor example judging from what I've seen there). That should be up to the artist and whether it fits why they do it, not forced upon them as some kind of "punishment" for doing an image that people like for whatever reason. I can tell you that outside of the 2D/3D artist's circle, people judge as they do here. Whether they relate to the end product, not how the artist got there.

Another 2 cents,
ShadowWind

PS: I personally like the hot20, especially in Vue as I see a lot of excellent images I missed, and I didn't mean above to endorse it's demise. My point was that if you do get rid of it for some reason, it would be great to modify the Top 100 to take up the slack.

cagewench,
As I told LornaW, Rosity has a different purpose than CGTalk, where technical wizardry is the be all and emotion is a secondary thing. A lot of images are very close to us on a personal level (CGTalk doesn't have memorial images for example) and so critique is something that should be requested, rather than inferred. Along time ago, right after 9/11, people were posting many touching images at whatever level they were at, to express their grief. And there were people critiquing them as any picture. I thought that kind of rude. I think if you want critique, it's a simple matter of asking. If someone puts in their description, "Please tell me what's wrong with this picture." Then I am far more inclined to do more of an analysis to see if I can offer a suggestion. If they don't, I respect that as well.

Glad to see someone else had the same thought about the Top 100...

ShadowWind

** perhaps geting a handful of active members a month to do the judgeing. randomly. like geting a PM. We would like to invite you to judge the top20 for (insert gallery here) this (month,week etc). kind of like jury duty LOL.** Hmmm...I like that idea too :D

I also like DarkElegance's suggestion in Post 26 as well. ** perhaps geting a handful of active members a month to do the judgeing. randomly. like geting a PM. We would like to invite you to judge the top20 for (insert gallery here) this (month,week etc). kind of like jury duty LOL.** I got a chuckle out of the jury duty comment :-)

I seldom comment pictures and time to time I find some image that impress me very much by some reason, so I vote for it. Until now, I never found, an image that I have voted, even reach the 20th position, maybe I was the only one that have liked it.....

I am glad that you like the idea. it is just that we all know that some people join JUST to vote. others are as mentioned voting for friends or to return the favor. the top 20 is rarely unbiased. One thing is boosting your friends abit another is pushing everything else aside no matter what just to get that name in the top(actually what does that help? initially it may boost an artist and make them produce more but after awhile people go "er...their work is the same and they are still geting praise? what is the point" it starts to backfire on the good intentions, it is like the guy that got a huge win in highschool football and is praised and rallied around and thirty years later he is still trying to ride on that glory with out doing anything more). As mentioned Art is extremely personal. and the artists here that literally work HOURS and sometimes DAYS on a piece are geting passed over. As for the validaty of the top20..hmmm being in it does not nessecarily mean you are top. NOT being in it doesnt mean you are bad. we all know this on a consciouse level. does that stop it from being frustrating? no. I hope that the mods and admins think about the "jury duty" idea. it would keep it clean, the artists cant bribe or smooze with the judges if they do not know who they are at any given time, no more accounts being made JUSt to vote for a particular person(that would also cut down on empty accounts and space for rendo)and artists would get a fair shake.

I like the secret jury idea too :> cara

I don't think the secret jury thing would work. It sounds great in theory, but in practice, it's not very practical. It would require that each juror look at every single work to be fair to every artist before picking out his/her top 20. If it was done on a weekly basis, in Poser alone, that would probably be about 1400 images (and 200 images a day is fairly conservative). Who has the time to look at 1400 images? If I see 50 in a day I'm doing good and that is only when I can devote the time which is rare as of late. If you asked people just to vote for the ones that they've seen, it will wind up being about the same bias.

Still think limiting the date range on the top 100 would be the way to go...Include votes in that and the top 100 images for the last week would result in quite a range of artists.

ShadowWind

Of course I'm in the digital comics hot 20 fairly often and I might add while I will pimp and spam for comments and views in the chatroom for my pics, I don't actively go out to gather votes for the hot 20. If people vote for it then fine, if not, then not to worry....

What if they also added something where we could click on all images with votes in current month which we could then sort by ascending # of votes, descending # of votes and alphabetical by artist? Then some of the images that may only get one vote from someone could still have a better chance of being seen by ppl who want to see good artwork rather than the "popularity 20". cara

SeanE....your work DOES deserve to be in the tp20. There are other top20 here though that...well, run on the "friend" train and on the "lets ask all the nice people to vote"train. people joining JUST to vote. also the guilt train of "I voted for yours...." people have and probably always will gruffle their feathers about the top20 but now people are seriously geting frustrated and with very good reason. (also there is one artist that gets in fairly regularly that I personally think should get in more.but...I can only vote once....) just go look at some of the top 20 for say..three weeks...and you will see what some of us are talking about.

If I recall correctly, I have never visited the "Hop 20".....uh, I meant to say the "Hot 20" -- since the day I signed up for a site membership a few years ago.

I have never cast any votes for the "Hot 20". It isn't a thing that interests me.

Frankly, I suspect that only a select group of members really care much about the "Hot 20". About all that a "Hot 20" posting will get you is a little bit of bragging rights, and a number of detractors.....

.........people that will contend that your work isn't any better than theirs -- so how come someone such as you gets to be in the "Hot 20", anyway ((and not me))?

This game has gotta be rigged. If it wasn't rigged, then I would be the one holding the winning ticket.

Or so one suspects.

---

I have a suggestion:

Why not hold an annual autograph session for all "Hot 20" winners?

Anyone with the distinction of a "Hot 20" posting would make a personal appearance in front of the Grand Ole Opry House on Jan. 2nd of the following calendar year -- the "Hot 20" winners would sign autographs and have individual pictures of themselves taken with all of their fans -- for a small fee, of course.

After collecting the fees, all of the "Hot 20" inductees should have enough money to retire into a life of luxury.

Of course, I will claim my 10% cut for coming up with the idea in the first place.

I'll be waiting for my first check in the mail.

Actually Sean, Pimping and Spamming for to get comments is actively looking for votes as well.

natolii - no it's not. I want the comments and views. I couldn't care less about the hot 20 bit - that's entirely up to the viewer IMO. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything through a "you do me and I'll do yours" arrangement (hmmm that's sounds kinda dirty doesn't it... :+P )

XENOPHONZ I nearly choked laughing from your post. it can be that way but sometimes it actually is just the "what the **** is the deal" some of us are secure in their work, their work is more then validated in otherways. after all the top20 doesnt put a paycheck in the bank;) and being in the top20 doesnt mean you WILL have a paycheck in the bank.

There's also another side to all this. One that is never spoken about. I'm in the Hot 20 regularly. I'm not saying this to brag, but just the opposite. I greatly appreciate the people that take the time to view my work and show there appreciation. But at the same time when you are in there a lot, you feel a little weird about it. Listening to all of this makes me want to stop showing my work here. I think am I pushing someone out that is more deserving than I? I'm afraid to post comments on what may be percieved as asking for votes in return...I must've read ten times in this thread alone that the one thing people are the most upset at, is that it's always the same people. Well jeez, If I'm gonna get in the hot 20, should I not show my work here?...I comment on other artists because I feel it's deserved. I take my artwork very seriously. I also take criticism very well...But What I won't take is achieving something that I should feel proud of, and be told basically if you are to popular then people will just think you pimped those 80 comments, and 30 votes.

And the comment that was made about submitting to Raph.com...You might be surprised at how undeserving some of the artists are that get in there. I also publish art at Epilogue, and have quite a large gallery there that also goes through a very tough approval proccess. But I wouldn't say that getting into those types of galleries neccesarily makes you a top notch artist... It is the comments that people give, that are the most important because of the support factor. Sometimes an ego boost is just what a struggling artist needs to be better than what they consider themselves. You get that here at Renderosity. We should all be greatful we have a place like Renderosity to show our work, that doesn't insist on an approval proccess...
Ok I'm through ranting now.

Michael

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:53

"Listening to all of this makes me want to stop showing my work here."

Michael, I just went through your gallery and you have no worries about whether or not your work is deserving of the H20. It is.
The main issue I'm aware of is with the Poser H20. There is a group that votes each other in, deserving or not. And this right here is the reason it has to stop. It's causing ripple effects that are affecting innocent people. Hopefuly those involved and reading here will get a clue and stop making a mockery of the H20.

What if Rendo made it so when you uploaded an image, YOU (the artist) had a choice (like with ratings and comments) to enable or disable the VOTE button? Since it is generally the same people in most of the various H20's already, many could choose NOT to participate in this mess. I have long since stopped allowing ratings to my images, since it is very rare anything is ranked lower than the top "excellent". As far as I am concerned, let those that want to keep playing this game have it. And for those of us that dont want to, give them the right with a radio button when uploading to disable the Vote button. Maybe then R admins/mods would see after a while just how many are tired of this. Since thread after thread on this issue seems to be ignored for the most part. Just another idea to toss in the mix of possible fixes. -B

" What if Rendo made it so when you uploaded an image, YOU (the artist) had a choice (like with ratings and comments) to enable or disable the VOTE button?" I think I've seen that suggested in some of the other threads on this topic and, at first, I thought that was a pretty good idea but then I thought about it some more and if there are ppl doing whatever they can to get tons of views and votes, do we really think that those ppl (the ones whose presence in the Hot 20 seems to cause the most dissention) would disable the ability for ppl to vote for them? cara

Cage.. No, people who are in the h20 WONT disable the vote button. But thats the whole point. Let them have it all they want. Whatever gallery you visit, we all know there are a handful that are a lock for a h20 spot no matter if the work is one of their best, or one of their worst. My point is.. I want to be able to CHOOSE to be involved in this H20 thing. Not forced to participate. B

Hythshade,like kendra said your work has no problems with the top20(I am also familiar with your work in epi) it is the people that you can see that no matter -what- they upload what the qualtiy is that they are voted in by the exact same people over and over again. -that- is where so many have the beef. NOT with peoples whos work is actually on par with what the top20 was suppose to mean. The beef is that there are people with work like yours that are geting overlooked because of the constant ego stroking. As for the turning off vote thing...I vote for that LOL

Striving... ah, ok I read your suggestion in a different manner than you intended :> Thank you for clarifying that for me :> One more thign on turning off the voting... if a ton of ppl did turn off the voting, the Hot 20 would likely stay much the same as it is in the different galleries, so how would the other artists, who do excellent work, get more noticed? Because sometimes I have lots of time to surf and sometimes I have little and when I do surf, I'd like to be able to see different things by artists I might not know of, as well as the work of some of my favs. cara