Ok Am I alone in seeing a general apocalyptic gloom over the "Poser" community and marketplace Daz may have a good marketshare but if Im blunt a lot of their millenium models were worse than the earlier generations - only now on the 4th try are the joints beginning to get back to what they were - the face morphs arent getting anywhere close to my mind. Bryce looks a bit of a non starter as a vehicle to really push their content - now if they had bought an app that could seamlessly and freely put their goods in lightwave, c4d or max they'd maybe have a winner.Oh yes and their site is down (another makeover perchance?) Imagining the sort of content we are going to get post paypal is there anyone else who'd feel like giving it up if all we'll get in future is girl/ cartoon /manga lookalike clones? Maybe there are good points like entry level softimage software coming out around the 300 mark - I know if I spend the next 3 years using softimage I wont feel I' ve wasted quite so much time as I do now with poser :(

No. For a serious breath of fresh air, however -- something that makes you go, gee, maybe things aren't quite as bad -- go visit the forums on the "fringe". It's amazing how much more, eh, happy(?) the other places can be. Rosity has always been somewhat moody a place -- but the spirit lives in many who don't see secret cabals around every corner and assume the worst for every change. It is however a time of change in this community -- big changes, fast ones. And artists -- oddly one of the biggest instruments for change -- are among the most resistant to it.

yes crowbar- I feel it too It's partly a lack of excitement. Same ole stuff in all the markets everywhere. Tightening restrictions. Lack of money. Lack of expansive oppertunities, no paying jobs. Pretty much feels like a dead end.

Artists are naturally moody - think it goes hand-in-hand with creativity. I only started using Poser this year so the gen3 figures are all I know but I would ask if there isn't a little bit of 'rose tinted glasses' syndrome with regards to the models? Certainly comparing V3 with posette I know which one I'd pick (and no it's not posette ;D). There's nothing stopping you using poser with other apps either. I frequently take poser scenes into Vue to do things I can't do in Poser and now I've started doing the same with Maya. They're all just tools at the end of the day. The prospect of an even stricter TOS in the galleries as a result of paypal's desire to be the moral guardians of cyber-space is the biggest problem I see on the horizon, but then it hasn't actually happened yet so perhaps the site admins should be given the benefit of the doubt until it does.

My 2 cents

There are a lot of divisions going on.

We're all divided over which version of Poser to use or going with DAZ Studio. This has been going on for a while but it takes a toll.

There are so many figures and sub-figures that everyone's divided on who they should stick with and unless you're willing to spent a good bit of money, you can't possibly get everything for all of them.

You have all of the 3rd gen figures (Victoria, Mike, David, Stephanie, Laura, Luke)

You have a host of other folks that are actively used: MayaDoll, Koshini, Stacy, The Girl, Krystal, EJ, Neftoon Gal and Pal, Laroo 2, etc etc (there are a literal ton of others but I don't have all day to write this).

You have the AEON line which adds several more.

You have the older figures (Victoria and the whole bunch) plus reworks of core Poser figures.

Sixus1 has a line of figures as does DCort and DSI.

Nothing wrong with any of that I'm not knocking anyone but if you pull back, there are a huge population of figures and figure markets.

As a developer, again, you can't possibly support every one. I hate having to pick and choose which figures that I feel I can market content for - someone's (especially a potential customer) is going to feel left out. I've dipped into the 3rd party pool as much as I can without murdering my own online business and I know I've had a falling out with some folks as I've had to pull back to larger markets. If any of you are reading this, herein lies the dilemma.

And now a new anime figure is on the horizon which probably means a whole new wardrobe again. :/ But once the fresh, flavor-of-the-week feeling is over... what happens?

I can see it for the kids because there's a big size difference, but do we really need completely new jp's and so forth again in a unimesh creation? The V3 head is so dense that a new head morph could have just been sculpted for this.

Anyways, sorry to just be ranting away ;)

I think what happened was there was a shift from just giving your stuff away into trying to sell it. Granted, textures and clothing just became too complex just to justify giving everthing away. Other stores and forums emerged so there was a bit of back and forth between sites. In addition, there was falling outs between DAZ and CL and then between DAZ and some content providers. The moodiness is rather cyclical. Particularly after a big product is released such as M3, the Mil Horse, and the Big Cats. There was a lot of division especially after the release of M3...

I only started using Poser this year so the gen3 figures are all I know but I would ask if there isn't a little bit of 'rose tinted glasses' syndrome with regards to the models? Sorry to sound obtuse, but tinting the glass Rose-coloured doesn't make the figure a Rose. I agree with most of what's been said... just had to drop in one vague statement. =D

I agree with al the above...with so many new figures...so many new or updated software packages coming out, the time constraints in the ability to become proficient at any of them is sometimes well, depressing/disappointing...can't quite think of the right word at this moment, but you get my drift. I have gotten to where I'm very careful now as what I buy(more picky as to my needs). I don't need/want the latest & greatest in all characters. #1. I can't afford to clothe everyone #2. I barely have time to use what I have bought(if Poser went under, I could play till hte day I die LOL). #3. The latest & greatest never lasts very long, they are mostly fads that fade over a couple months tops. #4. Clothes/buildings/props/textures/characters are starting to look the same to me. Is #4 happening to anyone else????

DAZ obviously hasn't seen a single Anime before. Look at their "anime"-styled figures and compare them to the AnimeDoll. See a difference there? Anime isn't just about big eyes.

Well, they've also had huge issues with their male figures. I think M2 was much more embraced than M3 upon release. A lot of this has to do with the shoulders and joints...

I like variety, and I like having options.

As for figures, I purchase only those models which interest me. I ignore the rest.

Most people can't afford to buy every model of car found on a car lot, either.

When M2 first came out, he received his share of bitter complaints, too. In fact, every new Poser figure has been griped about -- for one reason or another.

V3 comes in for a lot of criticism from certain parties.

But V3 sells far, far more stuff than any other model -- or than several other models combined.

She must be doing something right. And by extension -- DAZ must be doing something right.

I can recall when the only Victoria rival was Dina. Some people had high hopes for Dina as a "Victoria killer". I never understood why. Well, Victoria did much more than merely hold her own in the marketplace. She dominated. And she continues to dominate.

Until someone comes out with something that's demonstrably better.

As for an atmosphere of "overall gloom" -- it might be raining outside of your particular window: but it's always a bright day somewhere.

Glasses can be tinted grey, too.

It's all BUSH's fault!! He and the religious right have a secret agenda to quash all artistic endeavor and turn the entire U.S. into concrete and steel. They control VISA, they control PayPal, and ... and... dang! Where's Michael Moore when you need him? Seriously though, it's just evolution; happens all the time. I've been here a while and Rosity has always had its ups and downs. Wait it out, it'll be back up. BTW: I like the new DAZ models way more than the older ones.

I wonder if we're looking at the right questions, even. For instance, the new "Victorian" costumes from Daz. They're nice, but "Victorian" is a huge target. It's as if one set of clothes were being marketed to depict men from before WW2 to now. And I've seen recent DAZ-sold items which have pretty obvious flaws. Not the sort of rivet-counting flaws that the experts notice, but things like texture-maps with mirrored lettering. |So, where's the quality gone?

I've been here a while and Rosity has always had its ups and downs. Wait it out, it'll be back up. I've been waiting, but over the last year renderosity seems to be taking two steps down for every one step up. There have been many dissapointments, but not too many triumphs

[QUOTE]DAZ obviously hasn't seen a single Anime before. Look at their "anime"-styled figures and compare them to the AnimeDoll. See a difference there? Anime isn't just about big eyes.[/QUOTE]

In the past yes. But Aiko 3 really looks promising! (and this is coming from someone who has been an anime fan for 25 years. -_-)

I don't see gloom and doom at all. We have more figures to work with now than ever, and so many of them are from individual merchants. There are even great free models like F202.

People who don't want V3 can always stick with V2 or better yet support EJ.

Message edited on: 11/19/2004 14:07

Message edited on: 11/19/2004 14:10

EJ is one of the very few "third party" (I.E. "non-DAZ") figures that interests me.

((Technically, DAZ figures are "third party" figures, too.....but they rule the Poser market.))

Where is EJ to be found? I've Seen the name in a few posts now and wanted to take a look

3Dream in the rosity marketplace

Referring back to the comment that the poster (ynsaen) who expressed surprise that artist were resistant to change. If he checks out his art history he will find this has always been so. The outrage at Manet's 'Olympia' and the general resistance to the nascent Impressionist movement came largely from such places as the Royal Acadamy and the French Salons, leaders of the artistic community. By the time the Impressionists were established there was something new to cavil at in the Fauves; and then of course you get Cubism, etc, etc. Established artists have generally found a formula that works and any change or innovation threatens their economic niche. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

What do you want? Every day there are new characters for V3, many of them really high quality, but at one point you think: hey, I've got enough skins. And I can tweak those settings myself. Not that the new ones aren't good, or perhaps even better, but there is a point of saturation. Eventually also one of creativity, wanting to create a texture oneself.

On EJ though, doesn't that require Judy? So that means folks who don't wish to upgrade to Poser 5 can't get this if they wanted it... She looks great, but doesn't that only target (guestimating) around 60% of the Poser users?

I can recall when the only Victoria rival was Dina. Some people had high hopes for Dina as a "Victoria killer". I never understood why. Well, Victoria did much more than merely hold her own in the marketplace. She dominated. And she continues to dominate. Until someone comes out with something that's demonstrably better.<< Hmmm ... there is still one factor that plays into this game that hasn't been mentioned. New figures can be great, in fact, some can even better than what is already out there. But the plain truth is that if they don't get the same kind of support that Victoria gets, they won't grow in popularity. That is PART of why the DAZ figures are so successful. They are very good models, very versatile, and very real-looking. But a LOT of the reason that they are popular is because they also have a heck of a lot of support from the community.

I can recall when the only Victoria rival was Dina. Actually, I think Natalia came even before that! And Solondra.

Well, a lot of hype is built up around 3rd party figures like Elle and Maximus (which was never released). People saying they want to make content for them and then when the figures are out the customer base expected them to be compatible with the DAZ figures. To date, the only free stuff for Elle is a hat by Neftis and some keds by odeathoflife. The marketplace I think only has 1 item for sale for her here. The DAZ figures are successful because of their versatility so you will see products and free stuff for them. But you will also see free stuff for the Sixus figures and Maya Doll which were generously given away as freebies. Any toon character, free or not, will have tons of free stuff as well. I think a lot of it comes down to people expecting figure developers like Dacort, Moebius, Neftis, and Anton to provide all of the content for their figures. And that's a bit unrealistic. So for all you potential 3rd party figure creators, you want to have sufficient people beta testing the figure and providing content that it will make an impact upon release...

Actually, I think it's possible you may have misread this gal's post a wee bit -- there wasn't surprise -- I was actually pointing out a sometimes ironic connection between artists being an agent of change (usually through events such as the wonderful one you outlined) and being resistant to it. It's the same point. And you got it :D carpe diem, cui bono?

Actually, if the makers have to produce something besides yet another crotchless fetish-latex outfit with strappy bits and buckles and zippers, in order to sell here, we might see the marketplace expand with all sorts of NEW clothing options and ideas. There are entire cultures and time periods which have NEVER been touched upon. And props and buildings and backgrounds.... Oh, and stuff for the men and for the children.... And then, after we have exhausted all the earthly cultures and 6,000 years of history, we can take in science fiction and fantasy.... So, yes, we are living in interesting times... and if you are bored with the same old clothing for the same old cross-eyed Vicky, then maybe you should join me in agitating for some genuine wearable clothes for the rest of the figure lineup and the set-building stuff we really need. Carolly

I completely agree with Carolly. And I also think that with all the texturists we have here who create content for V3, that it would be great if they could make alternate textures for 3rd party figures like Elle, Solondra, or Natalia. These characters have a shortage of fetish clothes let alone normal everyday stuff...

While I agree with your intent, Carolly (it would be nice to have more variety and more support for other figures), I don't think that "forcing" change on people is a good thing.

There are much better ways to encourage diversity and creativity than taking away their right to be uncreative.

More on-topic to the original poster, I think that the community is just going through a transitional period. With Poser 5's bad release, and Curious Labs' financial woes, a large segment of this community has been dwelling in the past.

A few months back, I remember someone saying that "Poser 5 users are reaching a critical mass." It's a statement I think applies. A lot of us are starting to finally get comfortable with Poser 5 and to find new ways of moving our art (and by extension ourselves) forward. On the other hand, I think it's hard to feel comfortable showing off your newest work or getting information into the community,because there's still some resistance, and when you find something new, as a relative newbie (like me) it's hard to believe that no one has found it before.

I think with Curious Labs being back, and the possibility of a newer, better Poser on the horizon, this is just the trough before the upswell. And generally speaking, the deeper the trough, the bigger the wave. ;)

ynsaen, ita pro bono pictori

LOL!!!!

*While I agree with your intent, Carolly (it would be nice to have more variety and more support for other figures), I don't think that "forcing" change on people is a good thing.

There are much better ways to encourage diversity and creativity than taking away their right to be uncreative.*

I agree 100%.

12th-century peasant clothing might be a useful thing -- for the two or three artists out there with an interest in 12th century peasants.

Yet another corset for V3 would sell far more product. Far more.

However, I'll take the peasant clothing, too. The more variety, the better.

Maybe there are good points like entry level softimage software coming out around the 300 mark - I know if I spend the next 3 years using softimage I wont feel I' ve wasted quite so much time as I do now with poser :( i wholeheartedly agree with this statement. all the posers started to look the same. p5 came out, and folks had alot of initial gripes. soooo, i bought a copy of lightwave instead. omg....the whole cg world has changed so much for the better. and, even though i no longer have a gallery full of poser renders i have a hard drive full of (almost finished :) models that i have made myself. if i should decide to pose my vicki for a gallery pic, why, she has furniture, rooms, dishes, lamps, and, even some unique clothing. oh, yeah, and some creatures to boot :) to me, poser is pretty dead. i got so tired of twisting dials, spending hours, and coming up with...dagnabby....a RENDER...that probably stayed on gallery page 1 about 10 minutes. Pop...Pop....Poppi!!!

I agree that softimage is a good investment, but do yourself a favor and get a free trial first. XSI is not for everyone. The biggest reason (I think) that people use Poser is for the content and the accessibility, which are not features of XSI.

Why don't you try Wings 3D...

Frankly, I would be quite happy with a moratorium on all new figures and software for the next two years to give me a chance to catch up with exploiting all the stuff I have got.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but when Poser first became "popular" we had to do a whole load ourselves to produce stuff that looked presentable...and now we want it all put "on a plate" for us, is that it? I've got shed-loads of great Poser stuff from Daz and all over, but rarely do I use it exactly as it was sold. Maybe what's lacking is creativity rather than new...stuff? Check out the galleries for work by people like i-popba as a f'rinstance, and you'll see that interest and inspiration is still alive and well, it just takes a little effort.

Why don't you try Wings 3D... I absolutely agree with that statement, PBM. =D (And as an XSI user who has spent over 36,000 dollars in schooling, software, and resource material, I can tell you that Wings being both Free and Powerful is a godsend)

Slinger, I think its not an issue of creativity, but an issue of time. Poser is a hobby for a lot of people who may not have the programs or time or skill in modeling or texturing. I don't use things exactly as they are given to me since you can use seamless textures and material settings to get a different effect. But when it comes to complex mapping or modeling I just don't have the know-how. I've tried mapping figures a couple of times, but never seem to get the uv's right...

Actually you can do a lot creatively just within poser. I often build outfits out of 2 or 3 seperate outfits, by hiding body parts. Likewise you can combine different scenes. Like right now I am making a small apartment for my movie that uses pieces from several poserworld sets, as well as one from the marketplace here. No modelling required. plus with poser 5 procedural materials it's pretty easy to retexture things without messing with UV. For example turning a concrete floor into a very convincing woven carpet...