So far, I find that poser is not a very friendly user software, I would suggest Poser should make changes as below:

1. Interface: The interface occupy a lot of RAM, it should improve it by making a more simple design that does not take a lot of memory.

2. When posing a character, the mouse movement does not limited to the view we selected(eg.if i select top view in lightwave, i can move the object to z or x only, no y is allowed). As a result, I cann't pose a character accurately with accurate mouse movement.

3. Only allow me to undo once.

4. The dynamic clothing is too complicated, too many step, too many button, too many possibility, it need to be simplified and be precise.

5. Selection is difficult, I cann't select the part of the character or the character once and forever, I need to keep on n on to target my mouse pointer on the part I want to select.

6. When posing, there are too much tendency of creating distorted figure(eg. over twisted arm, legs, body etc), though there is a function call 'Use Limits'.

I would suggest that, poser shouldn't have a ready to pose of a finished charater. It should start with the bone structure, and I don't have to worry of creating any distortion. Once I statisfy with the pose I create with the bone structure, then I add on flesh, then hair, then cloths etc.

1. Cloth should not be ready make(it take a lot of memory), it should have a template for me to chose each part of the cloth, and allow me to do any change by filling in numbers.

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 01:42

Hi, yes there are a lot of limitiations. Before I bought it I searched the net to try and find another similar software that might be better but there wasn't any. DAZ studio is nearly ready but it is a beta and in my opinion not as good as poser. You'll still have lots of fun with poser. You'll get used to it and I'm sure you will like it eventually. L ots of people have made good pics using poser. Love esther

Memory and CPU: I have 2GB of Ram (DDr's PC3200 at 400Mhz (Duel Channel), AMD 3200XP (2.2Ghz), and I see hardly no change in Poser5, from when I had 512mb SDram and AMD 750Mhz. I do not get the low on Memory anymore, and all is the same. No speed improvements. Same from when I had lower end computer.

I wonder if CL is working on another Patch. Cause I couldn't imagine em coming out with P6 and leaving Poser5 with bugs still in them. Poser is addictive, and for me (My opinion), I say Poser has the most products in the marketplace, awesome prices than any other program I know of.

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 02:25

I love Poser. It and PSP are the two computer apps that have changed my life. Sure, both have their faults but, you know what? I LIKE programs that make me think, that force me to use the old grey matter to find solutions to problems. I can't imagine living without the freedom and artistic power that both give me. And when I hit a snag my first reaction may be 'Oh nuts!'. But then I remind myself that I'm pushing a cutting edge program to its limits and beyond. That I'm doing things with a box of electronics and some binary code that was undreamt of a generation ago. In less than a generation from now, the 'Make Art NOW!!' button will be a reality. Everyone will be able to make photo-realistic pictures with no effort. I feel honoured to be amongst this current band of CG pioneers. Hoorah for us all. Oh crap. Poser just froze and I'm late for work. (shuffles off, grumbling to self and attempting to kick the cat).

Robo2010, what do you mean by awesome prices?

"what do you mean by awesome prices?" Products for poser range from $2.00 to I say $35 max. But in another program 3D Studio Max, their items start at $90 and the most I seen more than $2000. I have seen a 3DS product like a vehicle for $2000, when in poser already textured, posable for $20, here and at DAZ.

I always believe that the very first principle of any software is to serve rather than to be served. And then flexibility is another major principle next to the one above. Message edited on: 12/13/2004 03:02

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 03:04

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 03:05

• Poser shouldn't have a ready character? Huh? That's one of the strongest things about Poser is the ready made easily modifyable characters. - Cloth is too complex? Huh? It is the easiest to use cloth you will find out there in my oppinion. I'm interested to know how long have you been using the software? Cheers, Joe P.S. I haven't had memory issues but I do agree about the number of undo's.

Well..I can do good (Be satisfied) with $100 in my pocket (For the wife and kids), and spent $20 on a product that is better than a 3ds file. A 3DS file, I'd have to texture, make posable, and feel ashamed about have spent the $100, and thinking what the wife is going to ask "What did you do with that $100?".. or "What did you do with $2000.00?".

Yeah..how long have you played in Poser? Never tried the "Conform To"? Cloth Room is fun to.

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 03:13

1. Use the dials.

2. Again, use the dials.

I would suggest that, poser shouldn't have a ready to pose of a finished charater. It should start with the bone
structure, and I don't have to worry of creating any distortion. Once I statisfy with the pose I create with the
bone structure, then I add on flesh, then hair, then cloths etc.

You'd still end up with distortion anyway, if you continue to pose the bones beyond their practical limits.

Set up the pose with a simpler figure, like the manikin, and then replace it with your character after you've finished posing.

... And hold the shift key when you've selected a part to keep it selected... you know, all those things you'll find in the manual and on the folded card to make life easier. If you have Lightwave, and would rather build and rig from scratch, and have bunches of time for independent construction, then why are you using Poser, anyway? If you are happier with a sterile drafting interface, get 3dS. If this is all too complicated for you, get DAZ|Studio (it doesn't do animation or anything fancy, but it is free) and only buy conforming clothing and hair and pretextured props so that you won't need to venture into procedural materials or dynamics of any kind. Carolly

Actually, there's a keyframer and multi-frame support in the most recent build of Studio, so it can do animation now.

I hope a new patch does come out soon. The new bug introduced in SP4 that kills figure names in exported OBJ files causes me no end of trouble. There's no way round it.

re: "P.S. I haven't had memory issues but I do agree about the number of undo's.

Hi Joe, I used to feel the same way about having only ONE level of "undo" in Poser ... but ... having said that ... (... AND and being spoiled rotten by the many "thousands" of undo levels available to one in something like PSP where I can go whizzzzzzing along my merry way at 90 mph until I discover a really big boo-boo and then I have to back-up ... (i.e., go in reverse - not make another copy) ;=] ... to the point where it is not screwed up) ... Anyway, where was I, ............. oh yes ... ... having said that ... I have found that only having one level of undo in Poser has caused me to slow down just a little bit before executting some seemingly menial operation that may cause something else to "blow-up." This "one-level" forces a certain discipline upon oneself, does it not? <-------------- (rhet) That's just my opinion, ... I could be wrong.* cheers, dr geep ;=] * with apologies to Dennis Miller for stealing his line - but it fits, no? ... ;=]

executting ... as in "cut 'n paste" ;=] Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo............... ;=[

I prefer the poser way of moving stuff, the lightwave way of only moving in certain directions in different views is a bit fiddly because you have to keep changing views to move stuff properly. If you had to make each figure before you used them and to make the clothes it would make poser a lot more difficult to use and it wouldn`t necessary make the clothes/figures any better than the premade ones now. Lightwave has some things that are much better than in poser but poser is much cheaper.

If movement of figure parts was more restricted, it would make creating new figures more difficult and unusual figure like spiders etc would probably be impossible. If the cloth room was made simpler, there would be less adjustments that could be made to the clothing and that would also not be so good. The cloth room really isn`t as complicated as it looks at first.

"This "one-level" forces a certain discipline upon oneself, does it not?" I see what you're saying there doc, good point. BUT... (hehe, there's always that)... not having multiple levels of undo hampers workflow dramatically. Saving a scene to a "test file" before you make an experimental change is tiring, and not productive. Then, you have the problem of accidents happening that are irreversible. gulp. Even a disciplined professional is going to be frustrated by that, and not take the chance of risking their work to such a "strict and brutal" application. Let alone the novice user who will make plenty of mistakes while learning. LOL. No one wants to be punished for a simple mouse click error. ;-) All I ask for in P6 is network rendering and multiple undos. Then I'd be a happy camper. Not to mention, you'd probably see Poser being used a lot more for professional purposes, which would help build it's credibility in the 3D world out there, something it desperately needs to improve on if it intends to be profitable for it's new owners.

I prefer the poser way of moving stuff, the lightwave way of only moving in certain directions in different views is a bit fiddly because you have to keep changing views to move stuff properly.

I like the idea of being able to restrict movement. You could make it optional. Anim8or has little buttons on the side of the window marked x, y, and z. You can use them to restrict movement in one or two directions,if you want.

Alternately, you could restrict movement for the top, left, right, and front cameras, but keep it the way it is for the others. That way, you could pick just by choosing your camera.

I love Poser, but it is several years behind the curve now. It could be a lot easier to use and faster than it is.

I agree with some (not all) of those critisisms, sonsenq, but dollar for dollar I can't bring myself to complain about P5. It does an awful lot for the money. Poser specializes in producing pics/animations using canned content at low prices and it performs that task very well. Add Poser to other apps sold by or associated with CL and you can even get away from the 'canned' feel if you want to.

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 08:04

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 08:06

poser is much easier to use than the high end apps, if poser was made that much more complex then it too would become a high end app (with a high end price).

Moochie ... you said it! That's exactly - EXACTLY - how I feel too!

When programs do become so complex that you can just click a few buttons to make a picture, I would say that they would be a lot less fun to use. It would be good to make a photorealistic picture with 500 people in the scene at one time, but if it was easy to do and anyone could do it, it would take a lot of the enjoyment and the creativity out of 3d programs.

You're not supposed to take a comment "push this button to make a beatiful photorealistic scene" literally, xantor. What is going to happen in the future can't be predicted, but what is a certainty is that making photorealistic images does become easier and easier. YOu know maybe in the future the creative process is not in twiddling dials with 2D images but in actual 3D holographic animations etc.

Btw: Terragen is already in such a level that by pushing a button a nice scenery is generated. The whole fun part is still there ... now it's about fiddling with the parameters to make the generated terrain look like something envisioned.

Message edited on: 12/13/2004 09:11

People will always find a way to challenge themselves. Now that rendering technology has reached a certain level of realism, NPR (non-photo-realistic) rendering techniques are quickly becoming a much sought-after commodity in the 3D community (not just the Poser community, but all of 3D). If hyper-realistic rendering reaches a point where it is virtually indistinguishable from reality at the click of a button (the technology isn't quite there yet, but it's getting closer), then many artists will eventually get bored with it, and seek out some new technique to challenge their skills.

The stupid thing about the Poser one level of undo is that a camera move counts as a level. So change something, move the camera to get a better look at it, and you can no longer undo it. That's just poor design. Camera moves shouldn't go in the undo queue.

1. Interface: The interface occupy a lot of RAM, it should improve it by making a more simple design that does not take a lot of memory. Agree to some extent. Non-standard dialog boxes when standard ones will work, fancy backgrounds and tabs, no docking, autohide, or custom toolbars, etc should be changed. Some aspects are good, such as I like the track ball camera control. >2. When posing a character, the mouse movement does not limited to the view we selected(eg.if i select top view in lightwave, i can move the object to z or x only, no y is allowed). As a result, I cann't pose a character accurately with accurate mouse movement. Yes it does. If you are in the top camera you can only move in the xz but you must be in the top camera, not just looking down from above with the main camera. I use it this way all the time >3. Only allow me to undo once. Thats a problem. >4. The dynamic clothing is too complicated, too many step, too many button, too many possibility, it need to be simplified and be precise. I dont think it needs less options, I think it needs good presets (with good descriptions.) >5. Selection is difficult, I cann't select the part of the character or the character once and forever, I need to keep on n on to target my mouse pointer on the part I want to select. Agreed, but given a complex environment it is not always easy to build an interface to allow easy mouse selection. (see also the previous post mentioning holding down shift) >6. When posing, there are too much tendency of creating distorted figure(eg. over twisted arm, legs, body etc), though there is a function call 'Use Limits'. Its hard to program a good sensitivity for adjustments, using the dial is usually the easiest way to keep from distorting joints, though not always easy to get the position you want. Explore the uses of IK. >7. Cloth should not be ready make(it take a lot of memory), it should have a template for me to chose each part of the cloth, and allow me to do any change by filling in numbers. If I understand what you are proposing, it would limit what could be done with clothing style wise. It would increase the program size, and resources needed and probably in turn the cost. It would also represent a much larger change than the shift (if there is one) to dynamic clothing, from conforming clothing. And I dont think it would be well received.

the only thing that bugs me is the directory structure(if I were head programmer for a day, I'd have a character directory, and allow subdirectories for hair, textures, props, and related clothes inside that..;) Aside from that, I don't have a real problem (unless I'm coming out of Wings, and keep trying to do Wings things in Poser, but I have the same problem with Bryce..;)

12rounds the future can be partly predicted at least. Computers will continue being faster and they will have more memory. My point was that the more automatic the program becomes then it might be less enjoyable to use.

I've complained about Poser's problems, too, but I realize that they come with the territory. Poser is on the edge of it's development. Whether this is the most highly developed software or not, CL is obviously thinking through something that has never been done before. And keeping it simple. I have found that Poser grows on me and the more I adapt to it's quirks the less I complain about it.

I would like a few levels of undo, but I'm not worried about it. I've found that my sole problem with P5 is that I simply needed to upgrade my computer. :) Problem solved. RC

I tend to agree with 12rounds. It's a question of stick shift vs. automatic transmission. Some folks enjoy manually shifting gears and it does give you somewhat more flexibility in some situations. Others, like me, would just as soon let the car do the shifting and concentrate on where they want to go. There's no reason why you can't have both choices in a program. Simple and IMHO elegant solution to the selection problem. Hover your mouse over a figure, right click and a context menu opens with the nearby body parts for you to select the one you want with cascading menus for selecting the figure when there are multiple ones in the area. They really just need to make the existing selection menu(s) a little more intelligent and turn them into context menus. Maybe this is already possible with Python in PP/P5.

Reply to maxxxmodelz: "All I ask for in P6 is network rendering and multiple undos. Then I'd be a happy camper. Not to mention, you'd probably see Poser being used a lot more for professional purposes, which would help build it's credibility in the 3D world out there, something it desperately needs to improve on if it intends to be profitable for it's new owners." POSER does have credibilty in the 3D world. Just not with the "I spent megabucks...I built and rigged my own models and you can do what I just did easily with POSER" 3D people. THE PROS will use POSER because they (properly) veiw it as another tool to get the $$$ job done. And they HAVE. Its just a small, but VOCAL group who trash POSER. (Sqweaky wheel and whatnot). Justification of position tends to taking a certain stance. You can search the many thread here where this has come up. I think the next two versions of Poser will address some concerns.

"THE PROS will use POSER because they (properly) veiw it as another tool to get the $$$ job done. And they HAVE." Yeah, I've seen Poser used for commercial projects. Usually for storyboarding and that kind of thing. I've also seen Poser and Daz models used in works, but it's usually produced outside of Poser using higher end software to get the job done. Very few people who take their work seriously are going to use Poser for the entire piece of work (from animation to final render) unless they absolutely HAVE to, or unless they're trying to prove something. How can you be confident in meeting your tight deadlines using an application without network rendering? Why would a professional with any sort of sense trust a commissioned work (I'm talking animation here) entirely within a program that doesn't allow more than one undo, and has been notorious for corrupting it's native file format (PZ3) on occasion without the ability to restore? It just wouldn't be efficient and it certainly wouldn't impress me as being resourceful. I stand by my original statement. Poser is not yet at the point where it is being taken seriously as a viable option for professional 3D work. I'm talking strictly in terms of animation here, since that's where the real money in 3D is currently. Sure, you might see some guy use it for a certain project, but it's rare in terms of the industry. I'm not saying it isn't a tool... when used with other applications, it becomes a great tool. I think it has decent animation capability and is easy to learn and use. But it's not reliable, and it's not geared toward being used as a standalone alternative to the big name apps. The only way to work it into a production pipeline currently is to export as RIB, or use a plugin to another app that brings it into your pipeline.

I think someone is just yanking your chains. That or opened poser, moved mouse over defalt guy and said, "this sucks." ("5. Selection is difficult, I cann't select the part of the character or the character once and forever, I need to keep on n on to target my mouse pointer on the part I want to select." "Simple and IMHO elegant solution to the selection problem. Hover your mouse over a figure, right click and a context menu opens with the nearby body parts for you to select the one you want with cascading menus for selecting the figure when there are multiple ones in the area. They really just need to make the existing selection menu(s) a little more intelligent and turn them into context menus. Maybe this is already possible with Python in PP/P5.") I use the menu already there, look under the work window. Figure, choose one. Body/bodyparts/props/camera/shadow cam/did I miss one? Right clicking may be a bit easier, but not needed. Undo, I say we need more. As already stated. Oh, one last thing. "RTFM." I still think this thread is nothing more than a poor joke.

In all honesty, I do remember Poser being very difficult to get used to, but that is because it is so different from the other 3D packages out there. As to it eating a lot of resources or operating slowly, that is to be expected. It is in a constant state of testing.. any time an object moves, Poser has to check for any conformed pieces and effectively generate a new scene. Add 'Full Tracking' and 'Textured' display mode and we're talking about quite a bit of processing going on just to bend an arm. Also, people often forget (or never knew) that Poser was not originally intended for many of the things it does today. It was created originaly to provide storyboard artists and the like with a way of manipulating a humanoid figure with limits set to restrict it to natural joint bends and the like, as a reference tool. Of course back then it was called Manequin and had no lights, no texturing, no rendering, no conformers (no additional object support at all for that matter) and only wireframe view mode. I admit that memory management in Poser (all versions) is less than perfect, and oftimes brings annoying problems up, but for the work it does, you just can't beat it. :)

All depends on how much work you want to do I suppose. Why move the mouse out of the active workspace way down to the bottom of the screen and pull up a menu that has every single one of Vicky's body parts to go through, including umpteen finger joints when you could click and get a much shorter list of the parts under your mouse? To me that's intelligent design that makes the program easier to use. It's fine to adjust to a product's limitations but let's not get lulled into thinking those limitations couldn't be improved People also have different perspectives on what easy is. One person's "no big deal" may be a constant irritant for someone else. I don't think the original post was a hoax, just someone commenting on what they see as shortcomings. Some I agree with, some I don't but they're certainly valid from that person's perspective. Poser is a remarkable piece of software but I think in a lot of little ways like the lack of multiple undo and context menus, it is also remarkably unpolished compared to most professional products today.

Maybe not a Hoax, but very similar to ones all through the archives. "It's not me, it's the poor software," syndrome. "It's fine to adjust to a product's limitations but let's not get lulled into thinking those limitations couldn't be improved." Yes, there can always be improvement to all software. Never said it wasn't needed, just stated that it was there if looked for. "remarkably unpolished compared to most professional products today." Also not $3.000 to $10.000 American, if your lucky to get those prices. Not something little no-bodies like me can afford. You need to at least put a little effort in reading the documentation supplied, even as poorly done as it is. Most questions have been answered. That will have to be the way untill the "Make Art" button is created and really works. Just my thoughts, so don't take it to seriously. I'm still tring to learning how to use the computer. Never had one till a couple of years ago. So if I can figure some of this stuff out, anybody can.

You're right Beryld, the infos there and sometimes people don't bother to look for it. On the $3-10K point though, The niceties I'm talking about like context menus can be found even on freeware. Heck, I even put stuff like that on the little utilities I write for myself because they make life easier. In a way, I think Poser's led a sheltered life. It's had no competition that does what it does. If you tried to sell a modeler or a wordprocessor without some of the basic features that Poser has neglected you'd probably go broke fast. If Daz Studio accomplishes nothing else, I hope it will push CL into making Poser a more polished program. It's time to jettison the old legacy code instead of bolting new features onto it.

"If Daz Studio accomplishes nothing else, I hope it will push CL into making Poser a more polished program. It's time to jettison the old legacy code instead of bolting new features onto it." Have to agree with that. Well, my Shade render is finally finished. 23 hours, HDR lighting. I need to pick my jaw off the floor. It may be a little to real. It can't be me, it must be the software. LOL. Amazing what can be done with a little reading and testing.

Congratulations! From the examples I've seen Shade can produce some incredible renders. I used to think that Cinema 4D was tops but I think Shade may have the edge.

More polished? Let me give an example of needing more polished. I use Max 6. I've been using Particle flow (max particles) for a project. I just spent 2 days rendering out some particle streams. At frame 86 of 1700, 2 out of 3 of the particle streams decided that they just weren't going to render anymore. THAT is something that I would concider to need more polishing. Then I go into particle flow to fix the problem. No way. I had to completely redo the 2 particle streams from scratch. I'm not saying that Poser can't use some brushing up here and there. Any piece of software can. It is only to say that you can spend $3500.00 on a piece of software and have it be really crippled in some areas. Next thing I did was work around the problem and get the project back on schedule. That what you do in this game. You work around the problem. It's actually part of the fun if you're not on a tight deadline. P.S. My project is doing just fine. It's a bouncing baby boy.

We're talking about two different things Dart--crashing, locking up etc. falls under breakdown a in the basic functionality, not polish. Poser, 4 at least, is actually pretty good on that score but then I don't do huge renders or animation. I'm talking about the refinements that make a program easier to use and smooth out workflow. From my perspective as a programmer, if the user has to find enjoyment in working around problems in the program then I haven't done my job. I don't deny there can be satisfaction in finding a workaround for problems but wouldn't you really rather spend your time using the program for the intended purpose than playing detective? Of course, it may be professional bias on my part. When I see something that could have been done to make an application better without a lot of additional effort and yet it isn't implemented, i tend to be critical. Of course, I don't have access to Poser's code so what seems trivial to me may be a nightmare to do for them. That however brings up the other point of what by all appearences is an antiquated code base that probably needs to be redone from the ground up. If, as I've heard, there are still issues from P4 (and possibly P3) that continue in P5 that would certainly seem to be true. Don't get me wrong. I think Poser is an awesome product and I want it to grow. They're not going to have the luxury of little or no competition forever though. I think CL themselves have said that P6 will largely be fixing the bugs in P5. In a way that's good but it also suggests that they plan to continue trying to maintain an ageing foundation.The longer the put off the inevitable, the longer it will take. They can ask Microsoft about that.

No doubt about it, Poser is quite an awesome program (especially for the price). However, if Adobe got ahold of it... hell, IMAGINE how incredible THAT would be! I use Photoshop and Premiere to aid my Poser projects. So far, I can't think of a single time that PS or Prem didn't do what I asked it to or, for that matter...CRASH! Some improvements in the basic code structure are desperately needed! Let's all pray that Micro(monopoly)Soft NEVER buys Poser, or we're ALL DOOMED!!

top of my UI wish list: customizable, dockable, tool bars with a tool bar button for every command Context menus auto hiding tools customizable library groups, subdirectories and icons maximizable work space programmable hotkeys oh, and if the cameras and lights were as easy and versatile as the ones in Shade it would be a huge improvement.

However, if Adobe got ahold of it... ...they would jack the price up and everybody would use D|S :)

I dunno. A lot of us are still using Photoshop, even though Gimp is free!

Beryld wrote: "I use the menu already there, look under the work window. Figure, choose one. Body/bodyparts/props/camera/shadow cam/did I miss one? Right clicking may be a bit easier, but not needed." This is incredibly inefficient - you go to that little menu under the window and everything is there down to the last finger joint. I don't want to wade through all that! To make matters worse, if you want to select a prop you have to know which figure it "belongs" to, even if it isn't a smart prop, which is stupid. If you want to see elegant selection, look at Bryce. Ctrl-click anywhere in the window and you get a popup menu with exactly the items under the cursor. Pick the one you want at once.

I dunno. A lot of us are still using Photoshop, even though Gimp is free! and alot of us use PaintShopPro because Photoshop is way out of our budget.

It's a double-edged sword. I remember when the Deep Paint folks bought 3D Exploration. They may have improved an already excellent product but I doubt the improvements were worth the price jack. I can understand CL's dilemma. It took quite a while to bring out Poser 5, evem bolting features on to the existing code. A total rewrite would take that much longer with no new release,users clamoring for Poser 6 and DS (possibly) beginning to gain traction. A bigger company with more resources could do it but they's want a bigger return and few of us want to see Poser jump into the PS price range. Maybe the Shade folks can somehow pull it off. I still think that "low end" 3D character rendering and animation is a market ripe to expand, so again, they don't have forever to do something. "Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!" --from the Klingon Code of Programming