Do we really need 800 skin texture products?
A lot of them do look very good, but does it even matter in the majority of the images that are created?
maybe it matters in close-up portrait work, or sometimes pinup images, but in the rest ???

Also, do we need face morphing packages...especially the kind that just use the existing morphs ?
yes, it saves time , and some folks have a knack to achieve a certain look out of a model, but geez.

Hair .. now hair I cannot get enough of ...
Eyes .. The new eye products are tremendous .. with the highlights, sheeen, etc ... but those are starting to get carried away as well.

Message edited on: 03/13/2005 08:27

Hmm yes i have a number of different V3 textures and I have to agree with you to a point. I usually use maybe 2 or 3 of them and forget about the others. But then I see them in my library and think "Ah I haven't used that in a while". I guess it comes down to what effect or "look" you're trying for!

I think there is indeed a lot of market saturation ... but on the other hand, everyone's tastes are different. I also have about 2 or 3 textures that I favor, and I've gotten VERY selective about purchasing textures UNLESS I am looking for a specific look. I can make my own, and I do know how, but it's easier to purchase them because it saves me a lot of time.

To a great extent, skin is skin, and since I often use the Real Skin Shader, and can further adjust tone with the diffuse and ambient nodes, and since I can open the texture file to put in a beauty mark or add wrinkles, I purchase very few texture packages anymore. When I look at a 'package' I mostly look at eyebrows and/or beard. ::::: Opera :::::

"When I look at a 'package' I mostly look at eyebrows and/or beard." Ewwwwww... Judy with a beard Opera???!!!??? Just kidding Opera!!! ;) It seems like the consensus is a favored 2 or 3 tex and a full runtime of unused ones! I fall into that! After getting some of Vali's textures I just keep using them all the time!! Her work is so versatile that they just always fit!!! That and RSS can make for so many variations like Opera stated!! All I need are my Vali tex and RSS and should be good to go for a long time now! G

Hair is the big thing for me, it's the only area where I don't think there is a good range of quality products. There always seems to be a compromise or other. If someone made a truely versatile realistic hair model I would certainly pay well for it. Oh how I hope CL have made the hair room in P6 more usable. I'm hopeless with it myself, and stuff I have bought adds so much time to a render I don't use it. Having said that I don't think one aspect of a community should be discouraged because there is alot around already :) making textures is as much an expression of artwork as finished renders and I'm sure people get alot of satisfaction out of making and sharing them. I think making hair models and textures appears quite tricky, it does to me anyway, which is probably why there isn't as much about. Thats my two penneth (10 cents) John

The market is flooded with textures and character sets for victoria 3 because that seems to be what everybody uses, while so many of the other models are being virtually ignored. What I've noticed is that clothing for all the models is extremely lacking. At first glance there seems to be lots of clothing out there, especially for v3 and her sisters, but if you look, a lot of it is really just variations on textures for the same base model. I was looking for a hooded sweatshirt the other day and couldn't find one on any site. Just an example. And quality hair models that don't require p5 or its hair room, are also extremely lacking. E.D.

The more the merrier, I say. I like variety. Let the merchants produce as many textures as they like. Zillions and zillions of them. I believe that it's already helped to drive prices down in the marketplace. And that's a Good Thing.

Well....there is a lot of skin tex and character morphs, but to my eye there is a lot of sameness to them as well. I'm trying to imagine the character packs that would allow Vickie to explore the range from, say, Audrey Hepburn to Sissy Spacek -- and what about, say, Madeline Khan, or Pam Grier, or....

Hair and clothes. BANVIATWAS is sooooo yesterday. ;) More importantly - hair and clothes for something other than V3!!! There must be ten thousand shoes for V3 (Marcos envy, I guess). How about MichaelX, David, YT, MK, and so on? BANMIATWAS gets boring too!

I believe that it's already helped to drive prices down in the marketplace. And that's a Good Thing. Of course, some of the merchants might not like this fact.....but hey, business is business. Supply and demand, and all that.

This is Judy, or to be more accurate, Eternal Judy.
The EJ system gives such terrific control over the mesh, it's just as powerful with male texture and morphs as female!

::::: Opera :::::

The key to a lack of stuff other than textures and moprhs is the ABILITY TO MODEL. Textures> Go into a digital imaging program, use a photo ref or hand paint a texture. ANYBODY can do that. If you can't, you can ALTER a prexisting texture (just dont share it without permission). Morphs> Spin some dials and TA-DA a new character. Make a belt. UH.... C'Mon its simple. Gowan! Uh... Lessee, gotta export the model into a modeling app. Hmm. Can't wrap my brain cells around THIS one. That one is too expensive. This one doesn't do this the way I think it should be done. Hmm. Where's that paint program.... With preoders of Poser 6 coming with ShadeLe, you may see a bit of a difference in the coming years. I hope. I for one want a Bodysuit (a Catsuit with Feet). Something very similar to Aiko3's Catsuit, but for all the Millenium Folk. Heh. Maybe I'll just have to learn to model my own.

I would imagine that MANY people did the pre-order thing BECAUSE of Shade LE. If we make some good tutorials available, perhaps we will see more and more people learning how to make their own clothing. It will be interesting to see what the next year brings. A lot of people don't have the patience or desire to model. They just want to create art and not have to worry about the technical side of things. I LOVE the technical side. Well, most of it anyway. 8-) Poser inspired me to learn it further. I just got Shade Pro (I think that makes my fourth 3D app now! LOL I am a glutton for punishment!). At first glance it reminds me somewhat of a cross between Rhino and LightWave. I have lots of exploring to do now. 8-)

I got to admit that the bundling of Shade with Poser 6 went a long way in persuading me to pre order!

I agree 100%, dllfurman! Seems that there are no real tools for this either. Not only does one need to go through the entire modeling/mapping/texturing process, but also take the pains of implementing corresponding morphs and setting up a conforming figure CR2. Much work. Maybe this is a future desire, but maybe the entire concept of figure clothing needs to be rethought. Cloth dynamics (such as the Cloth Room in Poser 5 and Clothilde in C4D) seem to be steps in the right direction.

Dynamic clothing is a blessing for those who don't enjoy the hassle of doing groups and joints and extended morphs. People like me! ROFL I LOVE the modeling part. I love the UV mapping part. I love the texturing part. I even don't mind going from model to CR2. But it's that last leg ... compensating for those extreme poses ... that I don't find fun at all. Gimme dynamic clothing over conforming clothing any time.

My favorite texturist is Mec4D. So anything Cath comes up with will have particular interest to me. For everyone else, I'll be giving it a lot more thought. After the real skin shader revolution, it's been any to take a texture that lacks a lot of detail and supply the details using the P5 shaders. I think the issue is that people are going to have to either diversify in order to distinguish themselves from the other texturists by picking figures that have otherwise been ignored. There is the magic bullet philosophy that if its not for V3, it won't sell. I tend to think those who say this strongly underestimate the unimesh fatigue. Characters like Misaki, Elle, Dina, Lilin2, Britta, and Natalia are an uptapped market. You could easily have a virtual monopoly in providing content for these figures. I've been wanting content for them, but there's been a short supply. The market is now getting ready to open for content for James, Jessi, and Kaimira.

Who is Kaimira? dlfurman, Why not make your own cat suit using the grouping tool and geeps Skull cap tut. The tut method is the same. You could not give it away or sell but you would have one to use. I'm bad about buying textures till lately. Seems to many are putting those damn highlights on again. I thought that was a thing of the past. I don't like to be dictated where my light has to be. Hair? I'm even worse. I can't get enough of it. Hmann, 3Dream, Quarker and others that I won't run on about, curse you all. BTW, that Babydoll Hair by Quarker at Daz is Great. I agree, Shade should make itself known soon, I imagine there will be quite a few upgrades to Shade Standard. But that might also mean less people buying. I rarly pay for clothes now. It would have to be something special for very cheep or I'll just model it myself.

The market is very saturated. And quality isn't what it used to be.

But I will still buy textures. I'm not very good at doing it myself. Flawed textures (like that cute "Jack and Jill" package, with skinned knees and such for Matt and Maddy). Textures with interesting freckles. Ethnic textures. Child's textures, and older people's textures. Fantasy textures. I don't buy as many textures as I used to, but I will still shell out for a well-done or unique one.

I used a lot more than 2-3 textures. I use some more than others, but I use a lot of different ones.

I think one of the big issues is that there are few that can "do it all." But that isn't because people are lazy, I think it's because texturing and modeling tasks use different parts of the brain.

Few texturers can model well, and few modelers can texture well. Add to that that there are far more texturers than modelers, and you can see why the texturers have a big challenge.

BUT ... there is yet a REALLY big untapped market. We have TONS of morphs and textures for the millenium figures. Someone has already suggested doing textures for the other 3rd party figures. But how about learning how to do morphs, and displacement maps for figures and clothing? They won't work in P4, but with P5 here now and P6 on the horizon we should be looking forward, not backward.

With displacement maps, you can put crinkles and wrinkles in a leather coat and have it look believable. You can give Vicky wrinkles and warts. You can put grommets in the arm of a couch or chair. DETAIL that doesn't have to be in the model. It is a very major untapped market ... textures that have displacement maps with them.

Message edited on: 03/13/2005 16:13

Perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly, but Dlfurman sounds to me like he's saying that anyone can texture, morph, and pose, but the really talented artists are those who can model. Yes, anyone can flood fill a texture template, spin dials, and bend joints, but there are only a handful of artists who can do whatever they do well enough that others will buy their products. There are plenty of Poser clothes out there that are gathering dust because there aren't enough good textures for them. Just as many people think we really don't need another featureless Vicki texture, there are those like me who really don't need any more untextured 3DS swords or clothes with no morphs and a single pattern-fill texture either. ;) Just my opinion as always though, thanks for your time. SnowS

I agree with that as well, SnowSultan. It takes a lot more than flood-filling a texture or adjusting the hue and saturation of a hair color to make a good texture. There are LOTS of good texture artists, but there are a limited number that take my breath away. The quality of textures would shoot through the roof if those great texture artists would go the next level with displacement maps. 8-)

Deecey I am completely on board with your thinking. I'm hoping that as soon as P6 gets established there will be a new default for approaching Poser.

I am just talking about a mentality shift...from "Go find vickie, start buying the packages to make different characters" to "Load Jessie, learn to morph her to an interesting look, learn how to load her texture, learn how to light and render." This could be followed later by "open her texture in Shade LE (or Wings etc.)" and give her more freckles, or change the tone of the skin, or place some birthmarks" followed by "the morphs that come with the P6 models are great, but here's how you make new morphs....."

With a certain amount of static 'respect' for the V/M+buy packages paradigm, it would be refreshing if that were to become a sideshow, and actually LEARNING the tools of Poser were to come to center stage.

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 03/13/2005 17:04

I like the diversity, though it is difficult to find a lot of thing that are different since there is so much out there. I think the market will create changes in what the vendors provide, as with anything else that is why we continue to upgrade, come up with new characters, new models ....there is so much talent out there making products it is wonderful to find values and diversity ...there are innovations all the time... I just hope everyone continues to produce new stuff...the more the better...

Texturists don't get as much respect as modellers, but for me, texturing is more difficult than modelling. Especially human skins. Not only that, it's work I don't enjoy doing. I'm not good at detail work. Never have been, probably never will be. I'm more than willing to pay to have someone else do it.

I am more than happy to pay for textures that make use of P5 nodes. It's gotten to the point that I'm reluctant to pay for textures that don't support P5. Unless they are both very good and very cheap.

It's probably not reasonable to expect merchants to make things for non-Millennium characters. It's clear where the money is, and it's in V3 and M3. Even other DAZ figures - V2, M2, David, SP3 - don't generate the kind of sales V3 and M3 do. Can't blame merchants for following the money.

Perhaps James and Jessi will catch on, but I'm not counting on it. Not because there's anything wrong with them, but because not everyone will buy Poser 6. Some people refuse to upgrade from P4, let alone PP and P5. And some people - maybe an awful lot of people - are using D|S. DAZ is giving away M3, V3, and Aiko now. Everyone can use them. Unless CL does the same with their figures, they won't make a dent in the DAZ domination of the market.

Texturists don't get as much respect as modellers, but for me, texturing is more difficult than modelling. Right, and for texturists it might be the other way around ... modeling is more difficult than texturing for them. It's because of the right brain/left brain stuff. There is a lot of logic and spatial reasoning in 3D modeling ... whereas texturing is a lot more free-flowing and creative. In effect, CL gives their figures away with Poser, and from what I've read in other threads there are currently more P5 users than P4 and below. If P6 is as good as it looks there will be quite a few swinging over to it. D|S has a lot of potential, but the dynamic features of P5 (and later) are what really attract my attention at the present time. When D|S supports those features I will probably use it more as well.

I don't think texturing is more free-flowing and creative. Especially for skin textures. But it's more detail-oriented. Getting things lined up right, and all that.

I'm sticking with Poser myself, but just judging by the posts I see at the various forums - a lot of people are either switching to D|S, or starting with it, without ever hearing of Poser. The whole point of creating and giving away D|S (and M3 and V3) is to increase the size of the customer base for content. V3 and M3 content. I think it's going to be tough to go against that trend.

Attached Link: http://renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12355&Form.ShowMessage=2120509

I agree about V3 and M3 ... they will ALWAYS be in the picture! That's why I'm trying to support both sides as best I can.

M3 and V3 (and their future incarnations) will always be in the picture because they really are good figures. I think the art of doing good business, especially in art, is to avoid saturation. This said, not all of the DAZ figures are equally supported. The FREAK, D3, Luke, and the preschoolers don't have a lot of support. Nonetheless, these figures are much more likely to be supported than figures like Neftis's Elle (which I'm sure some of you are tired of me constantly bringing her up). I think a lot of the problem for the 3rd party figures is that there isn't a centralized location as to where they are sold. DAZ has an advantage in that it sells its figures from its site and then pays brokers to support those figures. A lot of these figures are in places where people don't know where to find them. AlekNest, Sixus1, Neftis, RDNA, Dacort, etc. sell their figures from their own sites. So there really isn't a unified front against DAZ. Sixus1, IHMO, has been the most savvy in that he has consistently created his own market without trying to compete in anyone else's. He gave his human figures for free long before DAZ thought of it. That choice raises the bar for other other 3rd party figure developers since they have to compete with high end figures that are being given away for free. Lilin2 is also compatible with V3 textures, hair, and clothing. So that will make people stop and think before they buy a figure like Misaki and Elle as they'll have to update the wardrobe too...

If dynamic cloth catches on, the wardrobe problem will be minimal. It's easy to convert most dynamic clothes from one figure to another.

Of course, D|S doesn't do dynamic cloth. And if they do, it will probably be a format that isn't compatible with Poser's.

For those that like to do their own dynamic clothes, take a look at the new program from PhilC...Clothing Creator... it makes the modeling part pretty easy..the texturing is the kicker :) Folks are just starting to really use the P5 features...hopefully P6 wont throw a monkey wrench or be too different to shift the focus again.

PapaBlueMartin, It's no secret I believe Unimesh figures are NOT good figures, we can agree to disagree about that, but I do second your point about the 'centrality' comment. But consider this....Jessi and James are going to get a following. They will. And thus CL could become Grand Central Station. If the vendors of the various texture packages for V/M take their resources and make a J/J version, and as proposed above the 'clothes' issue becomes less and less important...Curious Labs will certainly put a big hurt on Daz. I agree they will not deal a death blow, at all, because beginning dablers can get V/M and D|S for free, and can be lured into purchasing a few morphs and textures. That is a cheap entry point. Any new person who want's anything more, however, will have to come to CL. ::::: Opera ::::

Thanks for the link PapaBlueMartin. Kept hearing about the new figure but didn't know where. operaguy, "This could be followed later by "open her texture in Shade LE (or Wings etc.)" and give her more freckles, or change the tone of the skin, or place some birthmarks." Wrong software. You need something like PS/PSP and so on. You could make the clothes and morphs with them though. The cloth room creates clothing morphs quite well too. I do get what you mean anyways. But. Most are going to want it done for them. Which is why, (I think), CL has made the material room in P6 they way they did. The less ambitious won't need to change from the P4/PPP material format. As for who's more creative, modelers, texture artist, I don't think one or the other is. It's how much time the artist puts into learning that art form. A modeler can be as detailed as a texture can. The strain on resources would be another matter. Mind, I usually reduce my textures to help with that also.

beryld, really, Shade is such a pure modeling app that you can't open a jpg and edit it? I didn't know that. Stand corrected, but that's a shame, with an eye to "The one and only exterior app needed for Poser work" not so much for myself (got it covered) but for the too-easily-challenged newcomer. Guess there is no such thing. What about Wings, no bit map editing/painting in there either? ::::: Opera :::::

Any new person who want's anything more, however, will have to come to CL.<< Perhaps not though, I've been using Poser since version 1 and I already prefer DAZ Studio. We'll only be able to make comparisons between D|S and Poser 6 once DAZ starts releasing plugins for Studio to add additional features. SnowS

No. WINGS is a MODELER. Paint programs are paint programs. 3DS MAX, a program used in games, movies, film and TV is a modeling and animation package but no one would expect to edit an image in it. This is true for just about every modeling/animation app available. Perhaps some are bundled with an image manipulator but few (if any) can do it themselves. You can place an image as a reference to model or animate from or use an image as a texture but that's it. Image editing is done in image editing programs, not modelers. As a person who does both, I find modeling and texturing to be on an equal level creativity wise. UVMapping my models is the part I get stuck with but once I have a UVMap template to paint over, it's jsut as smooth a process as modeling. The thing to remember is that there's an entire process involved for new content (at least, for me). I go through a conceptual phase, final design phase, story phase, modeling, UVmapping, texturing, rigging and testing. I do all this before the product ever sees the light of day. If one stage doesn't work, I go back and start over until it's right. I like to think most of the other merchants go through the same process. That's alot of work and thought that goes into a product and it takes time, regardless if it's a texture or a model or both. I personally ask folks to let me know what I can do to make my models a better experience for them, since I'm just starting out selling my stuff. I'm sure other merchants also would be open to hearing what you, as a buyer, want to have more of. If enough folks express an interest in seeing something different, via IM or email, to a merchant, it's in the best interest of the merchant to listen. So my suggestion is to voice your opinions to those merchants whose products you enjoy. You'd probably be surprised at the result.

Maxon's BodyPaint3D has some rather powerful "image editing" (including painting) tools. Can incorporate and use Photoshop filters. Although there is a standalone version, the version for Cinema4D is integrated into the rest of the 3D modeling and animation package. So, yes, there are 3D applications that allow you to edit an image in it - create them even.

:) Like I said, few.

"So, yes, there are 3D applications that allow you to edit an image in it - create them even." Look at the price tag of those apps. UV Mapper Pro lets you do it with Photo Shop, which I don't have. I need to dig deeper and see if I can get it to work with PSP. Sorry operaguy, that's the way it is. Now, you can manipulate a texture in Shade the same way you can in P5 material room. Off to update my Shade for the coming of P6. Later.

UVMapper Pro is $60, Adobe Photoshop is $649.

BodyPaint3D module is $495. Standalone version is $745 and works with 3DSMax, Maya, LightWave3D. For $1200, you can get Cinema4D R9 with BodyPaint3D = you get modeling, animation, rendering, mapping, texture creation, and image editing. $710 for Photoshop and UVM Pro = no modeling, animation, rendering. That means you need another application for that - which can go from free (Wings) to ultra expensive (Maya Unlimited, Houdini).

If you're looking for a 3D application with image editing support, yes, it is going to cost you. But, as you see, so is 2D image editing software. There are less expensive solutions, but you get (the lack of features) what you pay for.

Message edited on: 03/14/2005 02:28

Most people here seem to have Photoshop, so UVMapper Pro is a cheep way to go. I don't, but I'm sure there is a way to use it in PSP. Your right though. It all costs big bucks and that is the US price. You should see what it would cost in my money. Don't sell PSP short, it is a very good paint program.

I agree with you, beryld. Just thought to 'level' the playing field a little. ;) For me, Photoshop is the way to go. Although BodyPaint has many of the same features (like layering), it is not as intuitive. And years of experience with Photoshop removes much of the mystery and allows a quick, experienced workflow. The one advantage with BodyPaint when used as a module in Cinema4D is instantaneous feedback. You get to see the image texture on the target model as you edit. And you can paint directly on the 3D model. These definitely have obvious advantages - especially for seams! :)

beryld - I use a combination of UVMapper Pro and PSP7 for all my texturing. Hopefully this is what you mean by getting UVMapper Pro to work in PSPS...

Make sure than in UVMapper Pro you set 'Texture' to Auto Update. Now, in PSP whenever you hit Ctrl-C (or Ctrl-Shift-C if you're working with an image with multiple layers) your image is copied to the clipboard and then automatically loaded into UVMapper Pro.

A word of warning though, big textures with multiple layers (say 1024x1024 with three layers) will take a long time to copy over, and may cause UVMapper Pro to hang.

Usually I have both programs open in fullscreen windows and then Alt-Tab between them, but if you set UVMapper Pro's 'View' menu to Always On Top, you can have it running as a little preview screen with PSP underneath.

Hope this helps.

• Graham

Just to jump in here a bit late but IMHO, I've got the modeling part down fairly well, but UVMApping and Texture are kicking my butt! My hats off to the people that have the talent to make a descent texture that doesn't look fake! If I could get that part down I might concider posting some free stuff, or dare I say it, try and make some items for sale.

Wish someone would point me to a UVMapping tutorial that covers how to make a map like the Mil People use, or at least a way to map a pair of socks with out the foot distorting horribly!

mike

Message edited on: 03/14/2005 04:15

Attached Link: http://dave-so2.com/phpforum/

There's Z-brush. It does modelling and texturing in 3D. Though it's not your typical modeller. It's really better for morphing an existing mesh than modelling, at least with regard to Poser items.

And there's the Blacksmith3D package. I haven't tried it, but I'm tempted. It's under $100, and includes a 3d paint program. It would be only $69 for me, because I own Extreme Morph 3D.

I have high hopes for P6, but I don't think it's going to hurt DAZ much. At least as far as content goes. Even if Jessi and James are the best figures the world has ever seen, it will be hard to overcome DAZ's head start. Judy isn't exactly keeping Dan Farr up at night, and far more people have Judy than will have Jessi any time soon.

It might be different if D|S didn't exist, and if DAZ weren't giving away M3, V3, and Aiko. But it does, and they are. Unless CL counters that with giveaways of their own, I can't see them making much of a dent.

PBM is right; most people are pretty happy with V3, and don't want to switch. Heck, some of DAZ's own figures are better than V3, at least as far as joints and posing goes. But many don't want to shell out for another figure. They're content with V3. Animators and people with less powerful computers might prefer lower-res figures, but probably 90% of Poser users do not animate, and the hardware problem is becoming less and less of an issue every day, as people inevitably replace aging computers with newer, faster models.

And the jury's still out on whether the P6 people are actually better than V3 and M3. They do look lower-res, but that's not considered an advantage by most. Kaimira, which everyone's so excited about, is has even more polys than V3, plus extra layers for textures maps. I'm not wild about V3's shoulders and arms, but IMO, Judy's are worse. Even EJ's. (Though An-An isn't bad.) I haven't seen any evidence that Jessi's any better. (And admittedly, some of it is just the limits of Poser itself. Maybe D|S will fix that. But if so, I have a feeling compatibility with Poser will suffer.)

Should be interesting to see what CL does with Content Paradise. Will they feature stuff for V3 and M3, the biggest sellers? Or will they only sell stuff for their own figures? Depends on whether the purpose of the store is to make money or to fight off DAZ, I guess.

The one advantage with BodyPaint when used as a module in Cinema4D is instantaneous feedback. You get to see the image texture on the target model as you edit. And you can paint directly on the 3D model. These definitely have obvious advantages - especially for seams! :)<<< Now that's what I had in mind. This type of integration would be worth money and learning-curve investment. For me it would influence which 'next level up' 3D app I learn. Does anyone know of another combination at any price that works this way? Otherwise, it's no big deal to use two apps, bascically whatever happens to fit the budget or have legacy. For instance, I have legacy NEVER mentioned on Renderosity, a fine 2D app called Canvas by Deneba, which I've been using for almost 10 years. It has an advanced paint mode that allows many of the needed functions...layering, brushes, color balance filters, blur/sharpen, etc. and also has a vector graphics mode. It can make animated gifs, html output from layout and export direct to pdf. It's not an app you'd normally reccomend to someone to start into, but I have little motive to go elsewhere for 2D unless I could get really tight integration with 3D. ::::: Opera :::::

I apologize for the length of my reponse and the lateness of it: beryld: I have a bodysuit type in mind. I could do the grouping tool thing, but the different heel/sole morphs would not be there. I have to find/make sock/boot type morphs. You have to hide the toes/toenails. Need to add additional wrinkle morphs. So its not just adding a material group and going to town with an image editor. I don't want to do any more postwork if I don't have to. Taking the Aiko 3 catsuit as a model, the mask, boots and gloves are built in. For what I wanted (hopefully someone else would find it useful) a similar bodysuit for Mike, Vicky, Freak/She-Freak and the other Millenium folk. Snowsultan, Deecey: I am not saying that is all one has to do is flood fill, throw in some noise and voila, a marketable texture. But that is certainly EASIER to do when compared to modeling. And I am certianly not saying that if you are a modeler you are above or MORE talented than one who textures. For morphing (not just dial spinning) you need a Modeling application. When it comes to posing, there are thoise who are excellent at that as well. (see comments below). For instance, Schlabber got clobbered early on for a faux paus. How many POSING cds did he later sell. How many of us gobbled up bandwith to grab his latest pose sets? How many of us visited his site? Downloaded his tutorials, asked him for his tips? Going back to my example. Joe Newbie wants a belt. He could paint one on. Easy to do. He can get some tips on refining his texture. Say Joe Newbie wants to model the belt. He has to have an appropiate modeling program. Ok, so he gets one of the free ones. He has to learn how to import/export the model he wants into the app. He has to learn the free modelers tools, what tools to use where. Does he just extrude a disk up a bit and fiddle with the scaling and wedge that sucker in the model? (No one will know its a disk/wedge in the middle of the model). But what if he wants to share it. Who's gonna download a wedge? Better not to embarrass himself (if he wanted to contribute to community, but if it's for himself, it doesn't matter. Until he learns he can just use someone elses belt. But what if SOMEONE elses belt is NOT exactly what he wants? Keep reading.) He decides the wedge thing is not happening. He has to model it. Does he learn how to use the vertex and edge tools so that he has a beltlike looking thing. How does he make sure that when it loads it goes to the right place. ASK in the Poser forum and be told to go to the appropiate APPS forum only to be told to go look for a Smart Props tutorial someplace. Oh yeah, there's that UV mapping thing to consider. Joe Newbie just got swamped out of Poser. IF he is determined he forges ahead (texture making, model making, see the Marketplace and again see below). Want to MAKE morphs? Dang! There's that stinking modeling program again. Export the part, make sure you dont move part out of place, make sure the program doesn't reorder vertices, did you remember to scale it right on import? On export? (Gee I seem to be projecting here.) I mean no disrepect to the texture makers out there and I hope I didn't imply that what they do is easy. How many of us can duplicate Rena? Catherine Harders? Pick your favorite marketplace vendor. But for Joe Newbie firing up a imaging program and putzing around, is far more simpler than creating morphs from scratch and modeling new content. I think the original question stands. Why are there 800 TEXTURE packages and not 800 MODELS of dresses, pants, shirts, coats, shoes, boots etc. An interesting question. What is the percentage of modelers to texture makers? Most textures are add-ons for models. Those who add morphs to models do ok too. (Please do not take this as a slam. I have no products in any marketplace and you folks who do have my respect.) Note a change in the marketplace. Before all you got was a texture. Now you need a character package (morphs, poses, lights, clothes). Vendors see the need to add value. Why spend for X when Y gives the morphs, Z the morphs and a pose, AA the whole shebang? (That is not to say that if you get a really awesome texture that it is not worth what you pay, but if one can get that little bit more...) Digressing abit: For instance, IF I had my hands on the bodysuit as described above, the other stuff I want to do WOULD be done by textures, bump, trans and displacement maps. I, as one type of end-user, do not want to have to fiddle with tapering, tweaking and scaling geometry (certainly no more than I have to). That would satisfy me. But I have to have the MODEL first. And let's not talk about HAIR. (Wait! Gotta have the MODEL!). So right now, I fit the current paradigm of there is a model, I add to the model via texturing not by modeling. Heck, I'm not Joe Newbie. I have a handle on some of what I need to do. Even to quote you Deecey its a HASSLE. Some of us have progressed to where we've pushed the envelope (broken it in some places) and the rest of us are trickling along. We'll always have the newbies. No doubt some of the newbies may come and surpass us old-timers. What we also have to consider is that some people just find their creative niche. And some of us in the community are just that multi-talented. (I hate you :) ) With Poser 6 as Operaguy states, the paradigm has shifted. Perhaps those who struggled before will have new impetus with Poser 6 and Shade LE. I know of at least two folks who have pushed the envelope and should do well in the future. I've ranted enough and I hope I made my position clear.

You make good points dlfurman, and I will agree that for new users and those unfamiliar with 3D modelers, modeling does have a steeper learning curve than texturing or posing. I've fooled around in Cinema4D and the Rhino demo and I basically decided that I don't enjoy modeling enough to take the time to learn the programs well. You just have to be a certain kind of person to like doing that. :) Every type of contribution is important, and I hope that the Shade/P6 bundle will, as you say, inspire more users to attempt modelling. Then again, if it's as tedious as it was for me, it might not. ;) Take care. SnowS