"The mesh is only part of the equation in figure creation" incorrect. as a merchant and creator myself, without a mesh you have no figure. the CR2/JP information is what brings the figure to life in poser, but it is not the main part of figure creation. no mesh, no figure. it is that simple. and sorry, again this is not a new figure. it is new rigging, but it is rigging applied to an old mesh. I stand by my comments that this is 1.5 not 2. I also stand by my assesment that it is grossly overpriced for what it is.

eh...we are all entitled to our own opinions. There are far more positive points to working with the same base mesh than there are to creating a new one. If the mesh was lacking in some way, then sure a new mesh could be generated. But to make a new one when it is not needed and have people complain that their original textures and addons no longer work is not only silly, but makes poor business sense. The way this one was handled was the logical way to have the figure grow. Other than that...a name is just a name and not worth the breath arguing over LOL

I never really realized that it's actually just more of an upgrade, I agree in that case it's overpriced for sure. Good thing is I don't have to buy, we do have a choice, I'll stick to the Mil Dragon LE suits me fine.

Staby - I installed the LE version to my test runtime and I could install the upgrade without problems. The LE version has the original object that's why the upgrade works with it.

hrm...notice it comes with some p5 only textures...:)

Attached Link: Dragons from Spawn.com

"STILL has idiotic finger-rib coming off the broken elbow in the wings. STILL has misproportioned body parts. I don't care if they add a hundred more spines and a thousand more teeth... if the underlying body isn't built logically, the beast will never get off the ground." Echoing Maus.. May i also add that more and more dragons aren't being "built" logically. Take a look at a new series of Dragons from McFarlane. These are gorgeous critters btw. http://www.spawn.com/toys/series.aspx?series=268 (clicly link up above) Look at the Fire Clan Dragon (my brother has the figures so I have looked at these upclose) This dragon is far from Logical. how would you expect him to fly with those wings??? Or the water clan Dragon? His wings would never get him off the ground. Dragons are fantasy If you were creating for realistic then you wouldn't be including a dragon in it. Dragons can be anything and have been.

Holy crap! You mean you can use the upgrade if you have only the LE version???? Now that's what I call a deal!

I sent an e-mail to Daz explaining how I had just bought the first Mil Dragon not knowing about the new release and they have issued me with a credit so I have bought the Mil Dragon 2.0. I'm downloading it now........ BTW Todd McFarlane's Dragons are awesome :-) I think I'll be getting them. My hubby is a keen Mcfarlane Toy collector - he has all of the Spawn figures ;-)

I have several feet worth of dragon books (including that Dickinson :ptui!:), and several more feet of books which have dragons in them. I've been a paid professional fantasy artist since 1969!!! I've bought lots of dragons as 3d models as well as art prints (more than I can show on my walls, which used to be covered with dragons). I've animated them for games. I know something about the eastern dragons as well as the great dragons of western literature.

This is an abomination, although not as bad as others that I've seen. Dr. Frankenstein could do better (at least he chose the best examples of each body part).

Any living creature must have certain body proportions in order to eat, breathe, move, and mate. Flying is extra... and has its own biological rules.

Any evolved creature will show certain body structures because of the way cells divide and take on their purpose. If it grew from an egg, it will exhibit characteristics in common with other creatures which have grown from eggs.

Unless, of course, you don't accept the theory of evolution (some religions put faith over science).

Even a fantasy creature must follow the rules of this real world. Or are you going to say that gravity is a matter of fantasy, too? Sunlight? Air?

This is not only an awful-looking model, it is an overpriced one for just new morphs and rigging.

Not impressed! Not gullible, either.

Carolly of Dragonkeep

Message edited on: 03/16/2005 18:07

Yeah, but if you accept the theory of evolution, no way can a dragon have four limbs plus wings. The critters that crawled forth from the water had four limbs and five fingers on each limb, and all us vertebrates have followed that basic plan ever since. Some animals have fewer than five digits, like horses, but you see their ancestry in the fossil record, in utero, and sometimes in birth defects. Flying vertebrates - bats, birds, pterodactyls - gave up their forelimbs - arms and hands - in exchange for wings. If you want a dragon that looks like it evolved, it should look more like a dinosaur. Either wingless, or a pterodactyl-like critter - a biped, with forelimbs converted into wings.

My earlier comments have not related to the quality of the new dragon. If people enjoy using the new model then that's fair enough. I'm not changing my mind about this being a recycled model, posted in the wrong forum. So, to the dazettes, keep up with the snide comments because I'm here to stay. Can the same be said for a company that recycles aging products?

Well they don't have anything left to recylce....guess it's Mil 4 next haha.

I can't even get it to open after the 1st try. Poser keeps saying I'm out of memory. 1 gig ram, 25 gig free HD space. Poser 4.

Are you sure you have the entire thing installed? There are three parts in the upgrade; might be more in the full version. I didn't have any trouble opening it in Poser 5.

Talos, Go into your Geometries section and find the dragon geometries Could be under DazAnimals (not sure i haven't installed it yet) Delete the RSR's and try loading the dragon again

Talos: Poser 4's out of memory message isn't always caused by not having enough memory - I find it's also generated by not being able to locate a geometry file. As said above - check the installation!

"Even a fantasy creature must follow the rules of this real world.' Who says? I musta missed that course of Fantasy 101. Carolly while I understand your points, you are also wrong. Fantasy is the creation of things that cannot be. Were not, can not, impossiblities brought out of the minds of creative men and women. You can have fantasy based on real world principals. But not all fantasy has to follow those rules. Fantasy is what you want it to be. If you want it based in real world principals then that's your choice but don't expect others to subscribe to your way of thinking about it. I love the possible dragons. The "Real world" principals you mention but i love the impossible as well. That's fantasy. But no fantasy creatures do not have to follow the rules of the real world because.. they aren't real at all.

Yep, If it's a loading problem I check the geometries file first. If it happens trying to render, get rid of the bump maps. I think the upgrade is quite cheep after the PC savings. Plus the extra new character. Not everyone is going to like it. I don't see any difference in this than buying another V3 magnet pack. Price is about the same.

I had a lot of hassle with Poser 4 with more than about 512MB or 768MB - I never could get it stable at 1GB IIRC :( REALISTIC dragons would very much resemble dinosaurs, as dug-up dinosaur bones are actually the source inspiration (or a major source) for many of the dragon myths. So as has been said previosuly, a "realisic" dragon would have to forgo wings or forelimbs in favour of the other. There are actually fossil records of creatures with all manner of digits - more than 10 per limb IIRC and down as low as two. However, five seems to have been a remarkably successful number for fingers on the whole - and nature tends to go along with the rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Some critters have even had a "finger" emanate from the elbow, seemingly in order to aid flight! :D Cheers, Cliff

" "Even a fantasy creature must follow the rules of this real world.' Who says? I musta missed that course of Fantasy 101. Carolly while I understand your points, you are also wrong." and I suggest you hire out a copy of Dragonheart. Draco was built along rules laid down by nature, bones, muscles etc. go watch then compare to the mil dragon's.

There are actually fossil records of creatures with all manner of digits - more than 10 per limb IIRC and down as low as two. However, five seems to have been a remarkably successful number for fingers on the whole - and nature tends to go along with the rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Not quite. It is true that early vertebrates had a great variety in the number of digits on each limb. But the fact that we all ended up with five may have been an accident, not a result of natural selection. The other lineages died out, and the one that was left just happened to have five digits on each limb.

I suspect the specific number of digits isn't a big deal for most critters. Horses lost four of theirs, and get by fine with just a single toe on each foot. Humans sometimes are born with six or seven fingers/toes, and it's usually not a problem (unless it's a result of some deeper developmental defect). Cats with six or seven toes are very popular with pet owners, and so there's been a sort of selective breeding for polydactylism in house cats. And in Stephen J. Gould's famous example, the panda has five fingers and a thumb. The thumb is actually a modified wrist bone, because the five fingers were too evolved toward running to become opposable.

Because of this variation, I suspect that five digits per limb is an ancient trait, inherited from a primitive common ancestor, rather than a body plan that was particularly advantageous.

I'm failing to see any extra or contradictory info there? Cliff

Basically, the part of your message I disagree with is this: However, five seems to have been a remarkably successful number for fingers on the whole Five may not have been particularly successful. In fact, a lot of vertebrates have different numbers of digits. It's just that five was part of our ancestral blueprint, likely by chance.

I see an awful lot of successful creatures around with 5 fingers myself. Although success can be measured in many different ways. Beetles are incredible successful if you count success in terms of number of species, and I doubt they have 5 fingers. Where you mention that..

Quote - The other lineages died out, and the one that was left just happened to have five digits on each limb.

This to me contains basically the same information. There were creatures with different numbers of fingers. Some of them died out and some of them didn't. The 5-fingered line continued. Personally, from my own POV, I'd count that as successful compared to the lineages that died out ;) I think it's remarkable the degree to which the five-fingered clan thrived compared to its close relations. so I think, on the whole, that five-fingered beasts HAVE been remarkably successful. Cheers, Cliff

Although success can be measured in many different ways. Beetles are incredible successful if you count success in terms of number of species, and I doubt they have 5 fingers.

No, I'm talking about vertebrates only.

Quote - The other lineages died out, and the one that was left just happened to have five digits on each limb.

This to me contains basically the same information.*

Not to me.

There were creatures with different numbers of fingers. Some of them died out and some of them didn't. The 5-fingered line continued. Personally, from my own POV, I'd count that as successful compared to the lineages that died out ;)

But it's not the fingers that made the difference. This is shown by the number of vertbrates today that have a different number of digits, such as pandas and horses. Five is not naturally the best. It's just a leftover, like the human appendix and tailbone.

Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. People tend to interpret evolution as "whatever is, is best." In fact, it's the opposite. Whatever is, may be just an accident.

We're actually arguing the anatomical realism of a dragon?

It's a pet peeve of mine to be misquoted or misinterpreted. I have not said that five is best. Nor that having five fingers has been THE trait that meant survival of even a single species (I don't believe I've even said it was A trait that ensured survival). It's remarkable that five fingers is so common. If five fingers was out and out the best then its commonality would be entirely unremarkable. Think on it. Cliff

I asked sales over at DAZ about whether the LE version qualifies for the upgrade. I just heard back from them, and no, the MilDragon LE does not qualify for upgrade pricing. I can forward the e-mail to anyone who wants to see it.

-Heidi

Cliff, I'll just have to assume we're having a "two nations separated by a common language" moment, because I just don't understand what you're trying to say, and I suspect you don't understand why I'm trying to say. Heidi - how weird. It works just fine.

Must be a glitch then. Take advantage while it lasts everybody! LOL. I'm sticking with the full version so I can have the original full MilDragon too.

Randym:- I'm trying to say "You obviously don't understand what I'm trying to say, because you're correcting something I haven't said". This kind of thing bugs me. Badly. I'm not great at being corrected when I've said/done something wrong, but when I haven't I dislike it immensely. Cliff

Guess I'll wait and see how it shakes down. They may change their minds, since a lot of us have already bought the upgrade version. If not, I guess I'll have to decide if I want to pay more for the full version, or return it and stick with the LE version. I might just pick up some of the new textures and stick with the old version.

Personally, I think they should allow LE owners to use the upgrade. I was pretty much underwhelmed by the quality of most of the stuff in the Starter Bundle. They haven't fixed it (so far as I know) - and Bryce 5.5 has yet to appear.

Here's the text from the e-mail I got from sales:

*Heidi,

Only the ownership of the full Millennium Dragon product will grant illegibility for the Millennium Dragon 2.0 Upgrade product. The Millennium Dragon LE version that is included in the 3D Starter Content and 3D Starter Bundle products does not qualify as an eligible product for the Millennium Dragon 2.0 Upgrade. Please let me know if you require any further assistance.

Thank you,
Steve Swenson
DAZ Productions
Sales & Customer Service
crm@daz3d.com
1-800-267-5170*

And yes, I'm sure he meant eligibility not illegibility. LOL.

-Heidi

Thanks for the translation. I'm not sure I could decipher "illegibility" on my own. ;-)

They may change their minds. They've been known to do that in past. I'm going to wait awhile and see what happens. And play with the dragon and see if it's something I really want. Looking back, I really haven't done many renders with dragons in them. I've got a lot of dragons I haven't even used. :-/

I suspect the problem with allowing the LE version to qualify for the update is that it was originally a free item. I got it when it was free, and again when I bought the starter bundle. The only animal I didn't already have was the LE cat. The rest were freebies at some past point. And yeah, I was somewhat underwhelmed, too. Especially with the backwards loading summerwood thing. pfft -Heidi

I think they'll probably allow people who already got the upgrade for the LE to keep it that way. I don't think they're going to demand more money from people who already bought it. When they acidentally gave me three extra PC bonus coupons, Steve K. told me to stop complaining and go use them before they quit working. LOL. I didn't, but laregly because, well, you saw the slection. I didn't want anything else. I had enough trouble finding 10 things I wanted. -Heidi

I suspect the problem with allowing the LE version to qualify for the update is that it was originally a free item.

That's probably it. Though anyone who's been a customer that long probably deserves some consideration, too. :-)

And yeah, I was somewhat underwhelmed, too. Especially with the backwards loading summerwood thing. pfft

That was ridiculous! Especially since it was being peddled as a pack for beginners. I imagine there were some mighty confused newbies with that item.

When they acidentally gave me three extra PC bonus coupons, Steve K. told me to stop complaining and go use them before they quit working. LOL. I didn't, but laregly because, well, you saw the slection. I didn't want anything else. I had enough trouble finding 10 things I wanted.

Yup, I know what you mean. A few nice items, but I can't imagine being able to use three coupons on them. Still, it's better than the previous offer, which punished their best customers. Some people had already bought or downloaded as freebies everything in the first bonus pack.

The point still remains... is this dragon worth the price? No. The number of hours put into it is just as irrelevant as 3000 hand-hammered studs or real antique brocades in a costume if the final effect falls short. (And I am sorry for the wasted time.) Whether some chickens have bone spurs on their heels is just as irrelevant as whether whales have teeth if the model "looks" like the wings would break off before leaving the ground or if it would stab itself when flapping them. It has to look logical and natural. Another question remains... WHY is DAZ continuing to turn out bad models at high prices? And why are they turning out retreads? Even on a limited budget, I'll buy good models. I'll buy even average models if it is something that I don't already have and can't get elsewhere and can fix without too much work. I won't buy bad models... at any price. The Milcat was marginal, and I got it only because of Lyne's wildcat morphs. I refused to buy the dog. I refused to buy the horse. I refused to buy the bigcat And I refuse to buy this abomination. That is a dismal track record for their modelers! (I paid a pretty penny for the original dragon, eagle, and sea serpent, but back then, they were state of the art.) What are they going to paper over next? The rat? Sure they could take the mesh and regroup it, improve the posability, add a new texture and a morph for fangs... and sell it to us again as a new model, with extra packages for different breeds. wowie. Or they could look at the wishlist and make something new. Something good. Something worth buying. My money is on the rat. Carolly

agreed..I've stated the same a couple of times, but not anywhere near as elogantly

I would pay for the rat, if they made it look good. I love rats. I kept them as pets for years. The DAZ rat has a nice shape. Looks more ratty than any other mesh I've seen. But it has no textures. And you can't pose it. I would pay for decent textures (or dynamic hair!), and for joints/morphs that let you pose it in natural rodenty positions. As it is...it looks like a chocolate rat. And poses like one.

Rats are such good pets, aren't they? I love me some rats. :-) Smart little things! Haven't had any since high school, though. My daughter is terrified of rodents. :-( Even fluffy little hamsters! Go figure! It might be a good idea for people who want to tell someone that they think the new dragon sucks air through a straw, to actually tell DAZ this. Shrieking about in the Rendo forums is just venting, and isn't going to change anything. (And please don't start on me with the DAZ Groupie thing. I'm not a groupie, and I'm not in the mood for it today, thanks. Appreciate it. And the summerwood thing should've come with a sucking straw. LOL!) -Heidi

Yes, rats are very intelligent and affectionate creatures. You can even housetrain them.

How can your daughter not like rodents? Even squirrels?

It was the opposite with me. I always wanted a rat, and my mom wouldn't let me have one. She didn't like their naked, snake-like tails. I suggested we get a gerbil (furry tail) or guinea pig (hardly any tail), but she didn't go for it. So of course, the first thing I did when I moved out was get a couple of pet rats. :-)

The new dragon is very similar to the old one, near as I can tell. But I think it will be worth it for many people. Not everyone has the old dragon, and this one costs the same. The new Asian dragon might be worth the price for some artists as well. I have to say, I quite like it. It looks good. (And will look even better when Lyrra gets around to making real Asian textures for it, no doubt.) I just don't know how often I would use it. What is it, eight more years until the Year of the Dragon? ;-)

She liked squirrels until one got in the house a couple of years ago (through an unused chimney). Admittedly, even the cats were a bit afraid of it. I know it's mean, but find it amusing to see a teenager running from a teeny little hamster. :-P