1. Pay for products before they're released. 2) Think to yourself "They're sure to get it right this time." 3) Have to sign up for lots of marketing crap just to get a bug fix. 4) Believe them when they tell you "We appreciate your business." (Please contribute to the list... Having to sign up for content paradise in order to get a bug fix destroyed my last shred of respect for Curious Labs.)

1. Have loved Poser from the very first day 2) Understand that no software is ever entirely "bug-free" 3) Appreciate being able to make 3D human models without paying thousands of $ 4) Know that Poser gives more "bang-for-the-buck" than any other comparable s/w 5) Have had more fun with Poser than any other s/w 6) Are constantly finding something new to do with the s/w 7) Tolerate some of the negative things being said about CL 8) Signed up for Content Paradise and then discovered 100's of quality items for sale 9) Appreciate the freebies that are available in Content Paradise 10) Think that Content Paradise is a valuable addition to Poser

God ... Im a "valued" CL customer !!!!!! (OR ALMOST) Or I must ask CL that they adopt me ;)

GEEP...you're 100% right Doc! it's like the saying, your glass can be half full or half empty...it's all up to how you choose to see things...I admire the way you see things! :D

Add to the list that each new version gives us the pleasure of new tutorials from Dr. Geep!

blush

Thanks guys!

;=]

for sure dialyn!!! GEEP's tutorials are the pot of gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow! dont know what I'd do without them :D

Actually all software has bugs, but a lot of this stuff isn't a bug, it's something they don't fix, it just gets moved from version to version....like the memory "bug". This will probably be the last poser version I spend money on. The company is ok, the program is ok, but I'm getting a bit weary of having to make excuses for problems that should have been fixed a long time ago. This is not a CL slam. Just that a bug is something that although it's annoying can usually be dealt with by doing a quick update, not a complete service release. They know about the memory thing, how could you beta and not know that it's there and that it's a problem? So next time if I decide to buy it will be long after the "bugs" are worked out. The small amount of money you save is not worth the aggravation. And yes, I too have owned Poser since version 1. Marque

As for da Geep, he is a treasure. Thanks for all the hard work, you are appreciated. Marque

You mean all you have to do to get a bug fixed is sign up for content paradise??? That's fantastic! Signing up now and submitting my request... ::::: Opera :::::

I bought poser at version 4, then added pro-pack (loved it) and then enthusiastically hopped on the P5 bandwagon. After the P5 fiasco (which they finally did fix a lot of) I somehow had the silly notion that they'd make an effort to handle the P6 release a little better. Then they: Insult our intelligence by trying to get us to buy it before even saying what all the new features would be. Finally ship us a product they knew was buggy. Made no effort to correct all the problems that were in P5 even. Did very little testing. and Told us we'd have to sign up for their marketing crap (content paradox) to get the first fix (even though that first fix had hypothetically been finished even before "shipping.") Even MicroSoft doesn't make you wade through their marketing engine in order to get software updates. Yup, I like Poser, but am beginning to seriously question whether or not it's worth putting up with Curious Labs.

Yeah, Geep knows I think he rules. Smart, helpful, generous, and always patient. Yeah, dealing with Content Paradise to get the update was pretty bad. Yeah I have trouble with the focus of the Poser development, lotsa crazy node stuff few people understand with content in P6 weaker than P5, and it utterly mystifies me how people with craft can end up with figures that look as though the deveopers have never seen a real live nekkid person (those P6 knees/legs?!!!)... BUT although $129 is a huge amount to a person like me, I do not in anyway fail to apreciate the value being delivered... what other serious softwaqre of anykind is available at that price. And I must say, it SEEMS as though some of the people carping about P6 are the very people who will drop that kind of money for content in the marketplaces without a thought. It is simply because I have no money that I am so dependent on Poser for good content. I think it is good to prick ANY corporate entity over their product and service, and ultimately this is a free service to them since without accomadting criticism they will not thrive in the market place. Yeah, I think you should voice your criticisms loud. But I think you should apreciate that people have commited to a program that is problematic from a comercial strategy perspective and are providing nearly professional quality for a very "consumer product" price (I actually wish there was a true P6LE that had souped up P4 functionality only). I am waiting for teachers like Geep and non-profit developers to obnce again push this software to the limit and generously share the fruits of their effort and inventivness with us.

"it utterly mystifies me how people with craft can end up with figures that look as though the deveopers have never seen a real live nekkid person (those P6 knees/legs?!!!)... " These are software engineers we are talking about you know. It's not that mystifying

These are software engineers we are talking about you know. It's not that mystifying

ROFLMAO!

(And I'll have you know I resemble that remark!)

I love you Dr. Geep!!!

Um... what did I miss? Sign for Content Inferno to get what bug fix?

aw skip it.

Doc, I agree. We get a lot of things for a low price, but I hope they can be used soon ;-)... Less, but working would have been another option...

A year and a half ago, after running a freebie version of Poser 3 that was given away with a UK magazine, I ended up buying Poser 5. And I wondered if I'd done the right thing. Even at SR4 is has serious problems, while the Shader system is a tad intimidating. As for the UI, I've posted a rant or two on that. But Geep and a lot of other folks have made a huge difference to my appreciation of the quality of the program. I know how to make it do stuff. But I'm not rushing to Poser 6

evilded777 Poser 6 Content Release Service Release, presumably a fix of Jessi's mesh/rigging/? was posted last night. You have to go to Content Paradise and log on (join if not a 'member') to get it. It's free of course. ::::: Opera :::::

thixen was that comment in post 13 made before or after you took a look at the Content Service Release? ::::: Opera :::::

Well, there are plenty of other things to go on to if you feel this unhappy towards Curious Labs. Poser is only a small spot in the overall 3D industry. ;) I'm pretty happy with them and Poser at this point. Yes, P5 initially was a fiasco but we have to grow past that years down the road. I've seen much bigger companies hatch real messes. For one, Corel - they've released a strong version to follow it with a complete mess on nearly every application. Microsoft - pound for pound Windows ME was a mess (there were a ton of bad experiences for many folks on that one). I don't mean anything rude in this post but if the software or the company doesn't serve your needs there are many, many other avenues to pursue. Of course, most of those are going to be FAR more pricey.

@ thixen ... LMAO (also) ;=]

@ MistDragon ... Thank you. ;=]

@ Singular3D ... I think they will be.

*"LORD, please give me some patience ... and I need it NOW !!!"
"Thanks LORD!"

@ AntoniaTiger ... Thank you ... I am glad I can help. ;=]

cheers, (to all)
dr geep
;=]

Well, there are plenty of other things to go on to if you feel this unhappy towards Curious Labs. Poser is only a small spot in the overall 3D industry. ;) Very true. It's not the product that pisses me off so much as CL's handling of it. They could have found many people happy to beta test every aspect of the program. It's almost as if they're going along, slowly developing new features, then someone says "WE NEED MONEY" so they announce P6 and then go to the developers and ask "What can you have ready in 2-3 weeks? Don't worry, it doesn't have to work immediately, just give us something that sounds fancy. Oh, the customers will pull out their credit cards as soon as we say 'P6,' we don't have to tell them what it is yet." If they were smart, they'd hire someone like Geep and pay him big bucks to quality test and document the features. ;)

well I agree with that - they definately need some touch ups in those departments. I'm glad that operaguy posted about the content release because I've been checking the curiouslabs site for it, not content paradise. I'm hoping I'm wrong thinking that CL is using the content release to draw my eye to Content Paradise. Paradise doesn't really serve my needs - it doesn't encompase all the sites out there with purchasable poser content plus I know my browser well ;)

ironically yp6, you may be roughly correct! It appears they traded an early adaptor discount, prodded by their teasing, for a cash injection to pay for the stupendous cost of bringing the release to market. It's a Poser Futures Contract! You pay for the hog bellies, you get to brag you own the hog bellies, but the hog bellies won't be bacon until spring! We early adaptors were willing to live with the slush. We got to jiggle the toys around some, we got a low price, we can't do anything important until the SR comes out, SNAFUBWDC. [add --'but we don't care'] ::::: Opera :::::

Nothing in life is simple or error free. Every program has it's bug - don't get me started on Microsoft Word and it's "grammar" check. I can deal with the fact p6 has some serious issues - I'll just work around them. Whenever I try to export a model to a wavefront *.obj it doesn't do it and blanks out all the task bars. Weird little bug. It'll get fixed - I'll just have to be more resourceful. I'm glad we have P6 - no more having to have a thousand lights to fake outdoor lighting effects. Sub-surface scattering - awesome! I appreciate all the new stuff and I know the program will have its kinks worked out in the future. Y'all need to stop whining and just be glad they put the time and effort into adding all these nice little features instead of just doing another updater.

@ yp6 ... Thank you for the compliment but I don't believe I am qualified to do that.

;=]

"Well, there are plenty of other things to go on to if you feel this unhappy towards Curious Labs. Poser is only a small spot in the overall 3D industry. ;)

Very true. It's not the product that pisses me off so much as CL's handling of it. They could have found many people happy to beta test every aspect of the program. It's almost as if they're going along, slowly developing new features, then someone says "WE NEED MONEY" so they announce P6 and then go to the developers and ask "What can you have ready in 2-3 weeks? Don't worry, it doesn't have to work immediately, just give us something that sounds fancy. Oh, the customers will pull out their credit cards as soon as we say 'P6,' we don't have to tell them what it is yet."

If they were smart, they'd hire someone like Geep and pay him big bucks to quality test and document the features. ;)"

Well, considering they had RDNA, SIXUS1 on board for that and it was more then your present exaggeration.

Bioware makes you go through their content updater in order to update Neverwinter Nights. If you want to join in forums with Ultima Online, You have to sign up with Stratics and they have Spyware that makes Mcafee Scream in agony... And then EA Games is notorious for buggy content as well as making you wait for patches and throwing in eye-candy just to appease people. Just see what their track record is with Ultima Online and the Sims.

What you are describing seems to be status quo for the software industry.

Message edited on: 04/07/2005 12:15

Why do you think they call it "soft"ware?

It aint never concrete, no?

;=]

"It aint never concrete, no?" HEEEEEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEE :D

Although I personally don't feel the need to upgrade from 5, I find that the upgrade price, taking into account what you get for it, is very low. I do not agree with several things, like the prices being higher for non-American customers (yes, even without VAT it's more expensive), and I have the impression (but I can be wrong) that CL's administration is about as good as ...mine? (a complete chaos), but Poser is, like Geep wrote, much fun for little money. People who complain should know that a few years ago, I was interested in Poser4, but it costed here in the shop 600Euro. Which I was not willing to invest. Another point is that some Poser users are on the far side, and use it with all bells and whistles. They see the big 3D apps, and want Poser to be like that. But most Poser users buy Poser...to pose. To create their images and have fun. These are not interested in soft or hard IK, Claude Bonet maps or not...They even don't care about V3's horrendous shoulders etc. CL is literally stuck between those two groups. They cannot move to a Poser Pro version without excluding the use of all characters etc that now exist. And who is going to invest in that app when you cannot use that big, fat runtime with perhaps thousands of dollars of merchandise? They need to stay in close contact with the mass of buyers, and that means that (sorry) high-end users will always feel frustrated. No way around that. Perhaps there is one: try creating your own character, and rig it in Poser. 4, 5 or 6. Or even better: in a 3D package that does allow soft ik etc. You'll quickly learn that this is quite a task. And that Poser is a very handy app. Perhaps not a big truck or a Ferrari, but a handy van that takes you easily through rushing hour.

re: "HEEEEEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEE" Now that's sexist! ;=]

"SHEEEEESHESHESHESHESHESHESHEEEEEE"

tHERE, NOW IT'S FAIR & BALANCED ..... dang caps lock ... bytes me everytime. ;=[

Y'know...some of this reminds me of a discussion I had with a student a few weeks ago. He claimed to be a computer genius and said he could build me a "state of the art" computer from anything I had laying around my house. I brought him a bag of high grade silica sand and said "git bizzy, boy...git'r done!" He looked confused and shocked until I explained that all computers start as sand or dead dinosaurs.... I don't care who did what to whom on what occasion and how much the tickets cost or where the evidence is hidden and where the bodies are stashed...the fact that computers work in the first place is a bloody miracle, and the fact that a program like Poser is as inexpensive as it is gives me joy.

Have you anything in the mouth, Doc? Strange whispers ... ROFL :D

I just have to say:

"Finally ship us a product they knew was buggy" and "Did very little testing" are self-contradictory. If they didn't do enough testing, then they didn't know the product was buggy (or at least to what extent), and if they did know the product was buggy when they shipped it, then they must have known so as a result of testing.

"2) Understand that no software is ever entirely "bug-free"" You realize this is the case because users just accept it. Users have given the program development companies the leeway to just shrug their shoulders and say - well everybody else's programs have bugs too. It doesn't have to be this way - if people stopped being willing, paying beta testers for one, don't pay for the first release of software. Besides that, there are errors and then there are ERRORS. A memory usage error the likes of which P6 seems to have is not acceptable for what is supposed to be a release version of the program - no excuses. You run purify on that over a rigourous test suite and I seriously doubt you get a memory error of this magnatude slipping by. But wait a minute - the developers probably did that, because they KNEW there was an error prior to shipment. You know why things like that happen? It's not because the developers don't know what they're doing. It's because of the marketing department. They picked out their release date and will not budge from it - and this happens all the time. This is one of the main reasons released software has major errors. The CL developers knew of the problem and also knew the solution, but the marketing department would not push release back the amount of time necessary to integrate the solution into the code. Ergo you early adopters receive a program with at least one serious error. The requirement to use content paradise for updates is another marketing decision. I'm glad enough people here are complaining about that, because it's just not right. I've got a fine internet connection, but I really do feel for people who don't and are now required to log into that miserably designed site just to pick up an error fix package that should be available on a simple, top or second level html link to an archive file or a series of archive files. But you don't get user lock in that way - so content "paradise" it is. You could see this coming a mile away. People paying up to be willing victims, and then smiling and saying thanks, it's really not so bad, even though the thing they got doesn't work properly. You want change? You want less error ridden software? Stop lining up to buy the first release of a new software edition until it is common practice for first releases to be error free. That will get the message across to the marketdroids and then we'll see a change in how COMMERCIAL software gets created and sold. If CL can't afford something like that, it means their business plan is bad, and thereby they probably shouldn't be making software for commercial release - or they really need to change their process (I think we have a winner here). But as long as you let these people serve you gristle and sell it as ice cream, nothing will change - and you really have no one to blame but yourselves. Unzipped

"Finally ship us a product they knew was buggy" and "Did very little testing" are self-contradictory. If they didn't do enough testing, then they didn't know the product was buggy (or at least to what extent), and if they did know the product was buggy when they shipped it, then they must have known so as a result of testing. I stand corrected. They did a little testing and shipped us a product anyway, they didn't give a rat's ass that it was buggy.

"I stand corrected. They did a little testing and shipped us a product anyway, they didn't give a rat's ass that it was buggy." Yep, that's probably more accurate. In all fairness, as Unzipped points out, they didn't give a rat's ass because consumer behavior demonstrates that we, the end users, don't give a rat's ass either. If we all vowed never to purchase another computer program until after at least the first patch/service release comes out, or purchased on release day only from companies with a proven track record of bug-free release versions, things might start to change. Anyone think that's likely to happen?

Nope!

I've done my share of pointing out the memory bug in P6. The CL folks are working on it.

But all in all, Doc Geep has the matter dead on.

Poser does provide more "bang for the buck" than anything else in the 3D world.

And thanks should go to Curious Labs for bringing it to us at such a fantastic price.

Signing up at CP for an update? NABD (Not a Big Deal). An irritation, surely. But it's about on the same level as getting a small fry in your bag when you had ordered a large. Not something to ruin your day.

Keep up the good work, CL.

BTW - Curious Labs has good reason for wanting to track update downloaders. It's about like random searches at airports. Annoying, but necessary. But a few don't see the necessity - no matter what the reasons.

Thanks XENO. ;=]

"Anyone think that's likely to happen?" They didn't get cent one out of me for Poser 5 - by the time they got it stable enough for my liking Poser 6 was on the horizon. They won't get cent one out of me for Poser 6 until it's stable enough for my liking either. And if that's not sufficiently sooner than Poser 7 is in the offing, they'll get no money for Poser 6 out of me either. So in my case, it's 100% likely. Unzipped

unzipped... amen

Well, I've been using all the self-discipline I can muster not to open P6. According to the return policy on CL's site, I have 90 days to return it. Depending on the feedback I see in this and other forums, I may just return it and put the money toward a higher-end package.

Don't get my posts in other threads wrong -- I consider P6 to be a superb program overall.

It's just that the dreaded Memory Bug is a lead weight tied around the runner's ankle.

As soon as the patch for that little pothole is out, then P6 will be golden........

tips hat to Doc

I also don't want to give the wrong impression. I'm a (mostly) happy Poser 4 user, and from what I've seen from Poser 6 (and 5) people can do fantastic things with them. I really want to pick up Poser 6, I want to try out the face room, dynamic cloth and hair, hierarchichal libraries, multiple run times, all the crazy material nodes and the spiffy renderer, python integration, etc., etc. But as long as there's an error in there that causes a major program crash, and possibly data loss/corruption, it's a non-starter. The only thing a computer user really has is their data - if a program can't handle maintaining data it's not a very useful program. All the features in the world won't sell me something that can't do the basics. If you already own Poser 6 and don't dig it, send it back for a refund, that will get the message across loud and clear. Otherwise accept its limitations and work within them until such time as they get resolved (if they ever do). For myself I wait for the time the basics are solid, then I'll probably pony up. Unzipped

...and for me, this hurts a bit. P6, on release, seems a lot more stable (from what I've read) than P5. The figures are better than P5's. They admitted to a memory bug and are fixing it. They have a return policy, and are providing some free content. If P5 had gone as well on release, I'd have bought P6 on pre-release. Of course, P5 didn't, and I still won't shell out my money until the memory leak is fixed. I also feel they OWE all the pre-release purchasers of P5 a free copy of P6, but at least P6 seems to be a much more stable product with better support.

Maybe that was the P5 strategy; release something with so many bugs that anything released in the future would seem stable by comparison. ;-) But seriously, (IMHO) P5 was a bigger leap forward than P6 is. I was a lot more impressed with firefly, the hair room, and the cloth room than the improvements in P6.