I've read a few threads in here today that were locked and it seems as though they were locked because of political or religous views. Well if you are going to lock down threads because they may be controversial then should you do the same with controversial images? People can leave negative comments on those too. I understand that both religion and politics are powderkegs but why lock them down so quickly? I feel almost like the posters to these threads are treated like children and get time outs. I'm not blasting Renderosity here but I'm just trying to figure out why it's okay to post controversial images but not text. Why isn't there an OT forum on these boards, then people can argue all they want to about certain topics and then when personal attacks start then the posters could be warned that they could be banned. Wouldn't that be a better idea then just locking certain threads down? This does work on other boards.

Unfortunately, it hasn't worked here. Renderosity seems to think it's too much work. 8-(

It's called "Hands over the Ears" syndrome.

Well I'm sure they could find someone who would be interested in and OT forum to police it. I post at freshalloy.com which is a Nissan car site and during the elections we had some heavy debate but only a few times there were personal attacks. I'm sure the people here would be a little more restrained then that board, many teens on that board.

The Off Topic and related Forums got out of control and were removed, lol. I realize that may sound like quick judgement, but trust me...it was pretty bad. The reason now why a thread would be locked could be because there are posts that are possibly attacking members, so they would be locked. Ther are MANY forums across the internet for off topic discussions, were just trying to be more art related in our forums now. AgentSmith Moderator

I wouldn't feel so bad about it, except that it's another aspect that seems to be unevenly applied. Religious and political-sounding threads are locked quickly. Posts that flame Renderosity are watched closely, given several warnings, and then locked. But posts that flame DAZ, CL, and merchants are allowed to stay up without comment. I dunno, but to me it's all the same type of noise.

The reason now why a thread would be locked could be because there are posts that are possibly attacking members, so they would be locked. I'm just curious ... why doesn't the same rule apply to DAZ, or CL, or vendors? They are members (and people) too?

That's to bad about the OT, to bad people have to use personal attacks, ragging on someone's fine but personally attacking isn't. Some threads do seem to locked down to quickly though. Seems like the slightest bit of arguing gets a thread locked.

If its an attck I'll lock it, I have no problem whatsoever. But, that's just me, lol! But, a lot of this can be subjective. One Mod may let discussions go a little further than another might. Or, they might curb it more quickly than another. We're all human, so were all gonna react a little differently. Plus, I'm not sure what exact posts you refer to.(?) AS

Thanks for replying about this, AgentSmith ... I'm not trying to complain here, but to point out that there are often posts that appear in the forums that are intended simply to complain or bash something that CL or DAZ or anyone else have done. To me, it's the same type of "ugliness" that was a concern in the OT forums. In fact, some of it can get downright nasty and hurtful for the people that the comments are directed at, whether founded or unfounded. Being that the central reason for the forums is to share about art, or to foster growth and learning, any type of complaining or bashing is way off topic and does little to foster the type of community you say you are trying to maintain. So whenever someone starts a post that "Poser 6 sucks" or "DAZ characters bend like $&)(*^%", where is the artistic or learning value in that type of discussion? I'm not saying that everything has to be peaches and cream, but it's the same type of ugliness that you closed the OT forum for. And I'm not saying this to complain, but at times it is really hard to stay around with that type of noise level. 8-(

Just some posts I saw in the forums here. Like I said, I was just curious and thanks for responding to me.

It all depends on the mod. Some are quite tolerant while others appear to be weeping, hand-wringing, hemline two-inches below the knee, pinky-in-the-air tea drinkers. LMAO! But AgentSmith...he's cool tho ;0)

(lol, thanks...) Nah, like I say (in my native Bryce forum), complain away, just don't attack, its cool, we all need to vent. I have treaded through some DAZ heated discussions, what with them aquiring Bryce. It can be a weird balance in that you want to let members bring out discussions that could help solve problems, but not let it get out of hand. "So whenever someone starts a post that "Poser 6 sucks" or "DAZ characters bend like $&)(*^%", where is the artistic or learning value in that type of discussion?" -There is none. And, statements like that will always be unfounded, imho. They are usually just reactionary statements. Sticks and stones can be way hard to ignore, but they really are just sticks and stones. AS

-There is none. And, statements like that will always be unfounded, imho. They are usually just reactionary statements. Sticks and stones can be way hard to ignore, but they really are just sticks and stones. Sometimes, but not always. Rumors start because of them. Feelings get hurt because of them. Imaginary battle lines get drawn because of them. And, believe it or not, a lot of people stay away because of them. It would be a much more positive place to be if the posts FOCUSED on art, like you want them to.

I think AgentSmith is right that a lot of it is personality of the mod, but I also think that timing and recent events play major rolls too.

(Rambling explanation ahead. Sorry, but I'm somewhat of a native storyteller. If you want to skip ahead I'll mark my conclusion with two asterix.)
I've been a member of Rendo for years, but only recently started being really active in the community again. I all of a sudden had plenty of time, because I just finished school but got too sick to hold a regular job. So art seemed like the best way to spend my time, and get my mind off of pain and discomfort. I started looking at contest and challenges to focus my attention on. Especially the challenges brought me into surfing the forums. Once here I started to notice that it seemed like I'd come in the wake of a major meltdown. And it wasn't just one forum, but forum after forum seemed to be putting out the fires of a massive free fire zone. Some of the language did make me a bit nervous in entering feedback and community events such as challenges. There was so much language of exclusivity (i.e. "Why don't have this or that only open to our community?"; "Why do the Poser people have to butt into our rating system?"; "Those Bryce people don't really understand how to get results out of this program. Can't we keep them out in some way?"; "Man, I hate it when those fractal people post here."; etc, etc, etc.) For me it's odd if I don't use more than one program on a work, I'd say on average it's about three. I thought I might get booed of stage a couple of times, but posted anyway.

**my point: Locking post quickly also might be the effect of a forum trying to recover from a courtesy meltdown.

I am all for the mods locking/deleting threads that do nothing but re-hash the same ground over and over again.

After a certain point, it becomes obvious that there is no way that the two sides are going to agree with each other. Or even agree to disagree. Or even be civil.

What good does it do anyone (especially Renderosity) to allow such virtual barroom brawls to continue? There's no percentage from a business standpoint. All that people are doing is yelling at each other. Talking at rather than to each other.

From Renderosity's point of view, that's a no-win situation. Best to quell it.

Sure, putting the kabosh on endless diatribes/rants enrages certain self-proclaimed "free speech" types......actually frustrated anarchists. But the label "free speech advocate" sounds so much more inherently noble than the correct labels would -- anarchist......or jerk.

I'll leave the more colorful labels up to others.

"Freedom of Speech" is often used as a cover for "the freedom to be an obnoxious jerk in public without consequences".

Chaos is amusing to teenage boys and un-grown-up boys. Or to immature young girls or un-grown-up girls. Especially when someone else gets hurt. That makes it all the more satisfying to them. They smirk, and smack their lips in smug enjoyment if they can feel that they have succeeded in causing pain to others through the medium of acidic forum posts.

I support the administration on this one.

Message edited on: 04/08/2005 13:24

[Sure, putting the kabosh on endless diatribes/rants enrages certain self-proclaimed "free speech" types......actually frustrated anarchists.] Well one thing people don't have on forums is "free speech", unless you run that board yourself and I can't stand hearing about "what about my free speech" stuff either, drives me nuts. I only asked this because it seems like some threads that some moderators don't like get locked down quickly and I didn't see any personal attacks at all. Does Renderosity want to keep posts from being repetitive and this is why threads are locked? Oh well, thanks for the info :)

Anarchism: A system of people's organization where no goverment is required. In someway can be an uthopy because requires evolution, responsability and concience from the people involved.

Humans can't gather in groups without grinding on eachother. The bigger the crowd. The tighter the rules. It's a zoo out there. Please don't feed the animals. ;-)

In someway can be an uthopy because requires evolution, responsability and concience from the people involved.

An anarchistic utopia? What a novel thought.

Someone might want to try taking a delightful little stroll through Central Park after midnight. You'll meet some kindly people there who understand the full meaning of "anarchy". They practice the principle of brooking no restraint on personal behavior in the real world.

Right where people live -- or not.

And they'll do what they do in all good conscience, too. Because they don't have one to bother them.

I was hoping they would just delete the threads the minute they spot one starting up, since the two sides are diametrically opposed and will never agree on anything. But retaining the locked threads serves a good purpose. It shows that dissent is allowed here, that there is no "amen chorus" or group-think fallacy in operation, and that there are no new ideas being presented, hence the need to lock these repetitive threads before they degenerate into personal attacks.

Re: Why do Moderators lock threads so quickly? by AgentSmith on 4/8/05 09:32 If its an attck I'll lock it, I have no problem whatsoever. But, that's just me, lol! But, a lot of this can be subjective. One Mod may let discussions go a little further than another might. Or, they might curb it more quickly than another. We're all human, so were all gonna react a little differently. Plus, I'm not sure what exact posts you refer to.(?) AS "But, a lot of this can be subjective." I fail to see why that is. There is a tos and it is clear as day. It only becomes "subjective", if you do not equally enforce the tos regardless of who it is thats concerned. To do otherwise leads to what, in my own opinion, often times exists here, one set of rules for some people, and another completely different set for everyone else at a site where the members as supposedly all equally important to the community.

8-(

That's the point I was trying to make as well. If religious and political discussions get warnings or locked before they get ugly, then do the same for the threads that bash anyone or anything for any reason. Eventually people will get the message that the BS won't be tolerated and it will die down.

Message edited on: 04/08/2005 18:38

After a certain point, it becomes obvious that there is no way that the two sides are going to agree with each other. Or even agree to disagree. Or even be civil. What good does it do anyone (especially Renderosity) to allow such virtual barroom brawls to continue? There's no percentage from a business standpoint. All that people are doing is yelling at each other. Talking at rather than to each other. Well put Here is a wacky solution. Create a Gloves Off un-moderated forum that members have to subscribe too (But Free). The Member fills out a form and agrees to a Non_TOS and is given a password to enter the forum. This forum is invisible to the general public (And the all important Sponsors of the site) this waythose who feel like they have what it takes, and are thick skinned enough to participate in such a forum, have a place to do it that is removed from the rest of the site. This waywhen staff wants to lock threads, they can just point those in violation to the TOS to the Gloves Off forum. The only rule is that there are no rules. No whiners and less work for the staff. Told you it was whacky but since, as mentioned above, there is no way that the two sides are going to agree with each other, just provide a place for them to Not Agree. Tom

Part of the perceived problem is that a topic will be discussed for quite a while... like a hundred posts or more and positions will harden and names will get called... and the mods lock it. Fine. Then the aggrieved parties start the SAME damned thread all over again because they aren't finished arguing. That gets locked a bit more quickly. Then the same parties start the same argument in 3 more forums because they can not and will not let go. Those get locked faster still because more mods are on the case. Someone just wandering in sees a batch of locked threads and has no idea that the topic got battered to death weeks ago and that the mods have to continue to squelch each eruption of it before the whole volcano blows up. AGAIN. As to companies and products that we use? That is a different matter from religion and politics. That DOES concern all of us in these forums as artists. If a model has problems, I want to know before spending my money on unusuable junk. If a company is plagiarizing, I want to know before spending my money and thus feeding a thief. If a broker doesn't answer emails or help customers, I want to know before buying something with no customer support. If we praise customer service or help promote a good product by word of mouth, we also have the right to say when something is shoddy and substandard. Otherwise, the praise is also totally meaningless... sort of like the meaningless ratings in the galleries where people don't dare say that bad art is anything less than "excellent". If there is no honesty, no perception, no evaluation on the merits, we might as well shut down all the forums and save the bandwidth. Carolly

Told you it was whacky but since, as mentioned above, there is no way that the two sides are going to agree with each other, just provide a place for them to Not Agree.

This idea has been suggested before in various formulations.

The problem with the thought of a "separate" forum is that unlike in Las Vegas, what happens in the "separate" forum doesn't stay there. It ends up by spreading the joy all around the rest of the site.

In fact, the things that "happen" (it's not an accident) in Las Vegas don't stay there either, but it makes for good -- although completely fake -- PR to claim that it does.

I am about as thick-skinned as they come. But I have reached the conclusion that constant fighting isn't the best investment of my personal time. Even though I occasionally enjoy situations where everyone is attempting to prove that they are the smartest person in the room -- the exercise can be as empty as intergalactic space.

In the final analysis, an online debate can be about as useful as burning up ants with a manifying glass. And about as deep in the level of its petty cruelty.

Sure, I'll still stick my head into the lion's mouth if I feel that such precipitous actions are called for.......and if the cause is just.

But frequently, the goal of an online debate (or brawl) is not to reach a thoughtful, reasoned conclusion to a matter. And the purpose isn't to get others to see things in a new light.

Rather -- the ultimate goal is to WIN. Plain and simple. To be Top Dog. To show the rest of 'em how it's done.

Give the man an award. One that equals the value of his accomplishment.

In 100 years, it'll all be vitally important. Guaranteed.

The mods need to lock threads on subjects that serve no purpose but create forum warfare. With no quarter given, and none taken.

No one is going to change their minds on certain topics.

So why allow a purposeless riot to continue?

Once matters get past the raised voices stage, and into the soft thuds stage -- then it's time to close the establishment for the night.

So why not save yourself some unnecessary grief, and stop the fight at the "raised voices" stage? In so doing, the admins avoid the hassle/loss of having to throw the combatants out of the door later on, when things have gotten completely out of control.

You lose fewer potential customers that way.

It's just good business practice. ;-)

Smart move, Rendo.

In 100 years, it'll all be vitally important. Guaranteed. Exactly, if I am assuming correctly that this comment was said "tongue in cheek." Life is too short to spend it arguing or complaining all the time. In the "old days" (before Al Gore invented the internet, that is LOL) we dealt directly with the people that made a product if we were unhappy with it. We had warranties and lemon laws. There was such a thing as "customer satisfaction." I still try to live by that rule. And I know that there are still people around who live by that rule! We didn't publish it in newspapers or broadcast it on television when we were unhappy with something, which is about the equivalent of what dragging it through the forums is. Here on the Internet, the whole world becomes aware of things that may not be true, because opinions are often formed on only one side of the story, before the other side has a chance to speak their case. There is a forum here to deal with complaints and concerns relating to marketplace items. There is another forum to deal with copyright issues. In this forum we are able express satisfaction or dissatisfaction with Renderosity's issues (if I am mistaking the purpose for this forum, I apologize!) If you aren't happy with something I made, take it directly to me. I wouldn't appreciate hearing it second hand on the forums. I suspect CL, DAZ, Rendo, and others would appreciate the same kind of consideration, and would react the same as I would. They would try to correct the problem in some way. So far, those who have been vocal about the religious and political discussions have been heard. Those who spoke out against "fairy porn" have been heard. But those of us who are asking to tone down the overall volume of these forums have NOT been heard. And all we are asking is that the forums get cleared of the clutter so that people can focus on what they are here for ... ART!

"And all we are asking is that the forums get cleared of the clutter so that people can focus on what they are here for ... ART!" Only one problem with this clause, many are not here for just art and what's more, the artistic types are much more creative of mind than to just log in and say "Hi, how are you, what's new?" and answer "Fine, how are you, nothing much, what's new wth you?" Artists have a penchant to express themselves in their characteristics as much as with their art. How can you expect a forum board full of smiling, innocent interaction? Can you imagine a gallery full of just smiling, happy, uncontroversial same old, same old postings or merchants selling only smiling morphs and happy textures?

How can you expect a forum board full of smiling, innocent interaction? Can you imagine a gallery full of just smiling, happy, uncontroversial same old, same old postings or merchants selling only smiling morphs and happy textures?

I'm not expecting everything to be smiley face and polka dot rainbows, no. But you have to admit, when thread after thread contains complaints and bashing it gets really old, really fast.

The intent of the foums is for learning and exchanging of ideas. It used to be that way, for the most part. But something has changed and it has gotten far away from that purpose. At times, it seems there are more posts that gripe about something than focus on something positive. A current case in point ... with the release of Poser 6, there have been a lot of questions, along with positive and negative reviews. Someone complained about the number of Poser 6 posts. Expecting flames, she complained when she got them, and then the post was locked. The post was started with a negative burst, it should have been squelched right away. It is that type of interaction that I am talking about here.

Message edited on: 04/09/2005 14:02

There are reviews which contain justified negatives, along with the positive points....... .........and then there's bashing. Brick-batting, as they used to call it in the old days. Smart people can tell the difference.

Thanks, xeno ... I was starting to feel as if I was the only one. LOL I'm only saying this in an attempt to make things better, not worse. 8-(

I'm only saying this in an attempt to make things better, not worse. I have the sense that your heart is in the right place. Once again, it's usually easy to tell the difference. ;-)

Here's a light-hearted analogy ... It's a bright, sunny spring day. You're in a great mood. You take a blanket and picnic basket out by the river to enjoy some peace and quiet, and maybe read a good book while enjoying the sound of the water streaming downward toward a small waterfall. Life is good. Then a swarm of flies come by because they smell the food. They invade your picnic basket and start buzzing your head. You try to shoo them away, but they get more persistent. They're right in your ears and in your face .... BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!! Finally, you give up. You close your book, fold up your lawn chair, pick up your picnic basket, and go home. I like picnics, but I don't like flies. ;-)

I agree about the flies, pesky insects that don't seem to do much other than exist to irritate. There's other instects too that bug the world. There's also insecticides to deal with these bugs. As long as the insecticides aren't so damn strong as to destroy all the flowers and grass and beautiful meadows and pollute the nice water in the river where you picnic at the same time they deal with these pesky bugs. And sometimes you even need flies, just to make life interesting; I get the feeling people aren't necessarily happy with a perfect forum, world and if there were no flies, they would eventually make their own flies just to add some spice to the dull flavor of everyday.

[I like picnics, but I don't like flies. ;-)] Frogs do :)

There are some insecting eating birds and bats which dine on mosquitoes, and there is a white ground orchid which is pollinated by them. There is a place for mosquitoes in this universe. However, that doesn't mean that I like mosquitoes or won't kill the one feeding on my sweet blood. And if there is a breeding place for them, I'll probably pick up the phone and call the guys at whatever mosquito abatement district to deal with it before we are up to the wazoos with them. If 2-3 other puddles have to get treated, too? Carolly

ROFL Well, at least you can say we ended it on a light note. 8-)

"Freedom of Speech" is often used as a cover for "the freedom to be an obnoxious jerk in public without consequences". (Above quote) Congressmen can say anything they want to on the floor of the house without fear of libel suits being brought against them. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. For jerks and nice people and all in between. Since we are a government ''for the people'' maybe, just maybe, we ought to have the same privileges accorded to each individually? I totally agree with the person above who suggested an entirely open/free OT forum. No moderators. Let it go. No one is forced to enter it. Just like the various galleries here or anywhere online. People 'choose' to enter. If someone doesn't like someone else's works or words they do not have to click/view onto them. I have my own likes and dislikes as does everyone else. However, I would never want anyone's viewpoints censored in any manner because mine could also then be censored given the right climate and circumstances at a future date. Every time someone restricts speech or any other freedom we all lose at some point in time. My late father fought in the Korean War. He once told me that he put on the uniform for America so an idiot could burn his own flag on his own property if he wanted do so, even though he would find it reprehensible and not associate with such folk. Respectfully yours, like me or not, TallPockets. WINK.

Comrades, remember that the free speech is a weapon used against the proletariat class, is our duty to eliminate any kind of free speech!

"I totally agree with the person above who suggested an entirely open/free OT forum. No moderators. Let it go. No one is forced to enter it." You'll still have locked threads in every other forum. Pissing matches start everywhere; in a restaurant, a bar, a football game, at a traffic light, at home, in a staff meeting. It's human nature, especially if you might be a 15 year-old hormonal Poser artist. As far as rehashing old sensitive topics goes, we must remember that many members never - or rarely - visit the forums; this one or application specific, and may not be aware that the topic was previously discussed two pages down. There are also members here who obviously use Renderosity for the forums alone, never posting art, but simply use the forums as a place to hang out to chit-chat...like an AOL chat room, God forbid. Things won't change. It's been this way since one tribe first stumbled upon another nearly six million years ago and beat the s$!t out of them with stones and clubs to gain more real estate and women, and it continues to this day with a psychotic, dry-drunk gimp invading Iraq with the excuse as seeing said tribe as a perceived threat to his own tribe. -Perceived Threat- That's how some posts are viewed, and the ensuing pre-emptive strike by either the follow-up member or the moderator takes place. It's just another day in the life of humanity. Disclaimers: To the religious, it's fine by me if you believe mankind is only 6,000 years old. To the neo-Cons, you voted for him, I didn't. The above comparisons are merely used for contents sake and do not necessarily reflect the views and/or beliefs of Renderosity or its parent company, Bondware, Inc. Do NOT view this post as a perceived threat :)

7,000,000 years old... they found another skeleton.

;^) Edited to add: Considering the early cave art, I can imagine people complaining when red ocher was introduced as an addition to soot for making pigment. "Argh! THAT's not art!" :whack, whump, ooomph:

Message edited on: 04/10/2005 13:31

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. For jerks and nice people and all in between.

On the floor of Congress, this might be true. Especially whenever Robert Byrd or Teddy Kennedy open their mouths and flap their gums.

But in a restaurant across the street from the Capital building? Would jerks be welcome to say anything that they like publicly in that sort of environment? Nope.

As has been pointed out time and time again -- Renderosity is a private business. Not the House floor.

I.E. -- Jerks aren't welcome.

As an alternative, they can try yelling at people on the streetcorner, instead. Then they can scream about their "free speech" rights being violated as they are hauled off to the pokey for disturbing the peace.

The principle of "Free speech" does not confer a blanket right to use one's mouth as a weapon.

Every time someone restricts speech or any other freedom we all lose at some point in time.

Like the man on the streetcorner yelling at passerby? When a police officer tells him to either shut up.......or else?

After all, his "free speech" rights are clearly being trampled upon.

Visit a nursery school........2 and 3-year-olds are quite adept at practicing the art of free speech.

At the top of their little lungs.

Learning how to curb one's speech is an adult trait.

On the other hand, children that are unable to control themselves require adult supervision.

Many children are well above the age of 18.

One of the characteristics of communism is the lack of free speech!

Free speech does not give free license to be a jerk, though. Speak about anything that you want, but if you can't say it without bashing someone then it shouldn't be said. There is a difference between "ACME did a _&%#@& job again on that product. Those idiots don't know their )(( from their elbow" and "ACME could have done a better job working through the problems before they released this product." The first one is an attack on the people that made the software; the second says the same thing in a more respectful manner. It's the former kind of noise that should be toned down here.

Free speech and lack of education are uncorrelated things.

"I.E. -- Jerks aren't welcome." Sure they are, with a Visa or Mastercard!

Yup... especially if they are drunk and getting more drunk by the minute... that alcohol tab is worth it to the restaurant, if not to other patrons trying to enjoy a quiet meal.

What, no Americam Express or Diner Card? What about Jerks using Paypal? Getting back to those so-called pesky flies and other bugs that appear to hang out at these nice internet picnics just to bother and be pests, we must not forget that spiders love flies, in fact their life consists of building websites to catch flies or bugs and nourish upon them so they can breed more spiders that then are able to build more and more webs. Unfortunatly some flies can get prickly or the odd stink bug gets caught and smells up the spiderweb or serves no purpose other than to disrupt that beautiful image, so they get quickly chewed up or stung and discarded. But I would like to suggest that although exchange of information and learning and teaching and buying and selling, all that stuff is great and all, however, of all people, artistic types also need to be able to truly be able to "communicate" and "vent" somehow and from all I have heard and seen here, this place and other similar places that have sprung up from "poser" artists hanging out together and sharing ideas and "thoughts", and squabbling and growing as a result, many of them too would have all been called flies now because they had opinions and screamed loudly and were boisterous and cared much more about freedom of expression than freedom to just be here. Taking any privalege away can easily be done here because this and other foundations were built very strong upon many, many flies and other bugs that became the strands of these websites.