I've been avoiding the controversy around here lately but I thought I would share my recent thoughts and feelings about this place. First and foremost, I have to say that Nick and Barb have done an outstanding job of turning this place into a respectable fractal art gallery. I wish that there was a moderator of the year award, or something that would give them the recognition that they deserve. This place is still a giant popularity contest, but the new showcase and weekly window galleries do a great job of filtering through the popularity and finding the gems. Add to that all of the crap that Nick and Barb went through to define the guidelines and I just don't see how they could have done a better job. These are top notch people that we are lucky to have around here. About that giant popularity contest... I, once again, became frustrated with that game, wondering why this image and not that one, or why this person and not that one (or me). Sorry, I'm just a human. It's so easy to get caught up in it all. It's so easy to try to second guess or to try to put together an image that might be popular. I decided to step out of the game for a few images and I have to say that it felt pretty good. I didn't feel cheap or like I was bowing to peer pressure. Please, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the comments and the supportive community aspects of this place, but dang, it's so easy to get caught up in the stuff that doesnt matter. These are just my thoughts. I'm not complaining or asking for any changes. It's just what I'm thinking. Thanks for everything, everyone. Keith

Personally, I don't care whether any of my images "win" any popularity contest... as long as I like them that's all that really matters, isn't it? Sure, it's nice to know that other people appreciate one's art - but that's just an added bonus - we all have our own tastes after all. T.

I have to confess i do like it when people say nice things about my images. I have suffered with depression and self confidence problems in all areas of my life, for many years now, because of childhood traumas. It really boosts my confidence that i can do stuff that other people like, even tho most of the time i am dissatisfied with my efforts

I'm going to chime in on the popularity contest point, even though it may not be the most popular thing to do. I think that the comments and a tally of the viewings of a piece are useful barometers for the artist to get a feel for how well he/she has done in reaching others with his/her work. The artist must take into account the 'human' factor and understand that people tend to support their friends more than strangers or people to which they have taken a dislike. But my beef has to do with voting. Why do people tell other people when they are voting for their image? It seems it is either an invitation for a responing vote, or a way to nurture a mutually supportive connection with that person. The former is clearly not in the spirit of the vote. But regarding mutual support, it can and should be a major part of this community. But should it contaminate what I presumed was a recognition of the 'best' artistic or technical efforts? I would think that voting should be about the quality of the work, regardless of the 'popularity' of the artist or the strength of their mutual support networks. This undoubtedly has been thought through before. Why for example has it become standard practice when someone is going to tell the other person that he/she voted for them to put it in the form of a coded message, e.g. "V" or whatever, if not to get around some kind of unenforced protocol of a 'secret' ballot? My view is that if voting is kept as one of the methods for providing feedback and recognition to artists it should be totally secret. On the Hot 20 page people are requested not to solicit votes. I think this should be interpreted to include telling others they are voting for them, and the practice should stop.

I failed Art at school - failed it rather miserably in fact! Funny how that can affect someone for a very long time... it's been 20 years since I was basically told that I was a total failure at making anything of artistic value. My confidence is slowly improving to the point where I'm a lot less reluctant to "show off" my works - but I'm still more likely to put such works into my own private gallery, rather than at places like this one. Rediscovering fractals has definitely been great for me - it combines my love for computers and my taste for the somewhat wierd and abstract... and the feedback that I do get (unsolicited of course) inspires me to get a little more creative, try new things, and just enjoy what I'm doing. I'm happy to take negative comments about my works also - you'd just better back them up with a bloody good reason why before it will even register on this little black duck... lol! I like my displayed works - that's why I display them... if others like them, then that's a huge bonus! To get all in a flap about whether one work or another should or shouldn't be included in some ethereal internet "best of" showcase isn't worth it in my opinion... I think 99% of the stuff I've seen here is worthy of inclusion anyways! T.

Although I agree with the spirit of that [ie. My art is really for me, and if others like it well that's great.] this community should be centered around art, and the social aspect should be secondary. And while I feel the social part is indeed important, to have these aspects prominently reversed I think cheapens it.

"About that giant popularity contest... I, once again, became frustrated with that game" <<<

Whether people like to admit it or not, it is a game. Not getting many comments on your images? You will if you comment on every image in the gallery for a few days before you post your image. Try it, you'll see the comments on your images increase exponentially to the number of comments that you post. If you comment on EVERY image in the gallery for four days in a row, you can pretty much post a picture of your shoe and get "Stunning"...and "Excellent"...lol!

And that is as it should be, it is a community after all. But it is also very easy to get caught up in the game and post for the comments, and if you don't get many you're all depressed.

I say it does a person good to not post for a week.

I also say you should create images that YOU like. If others do also, good, but if not...hey, YOU liked it. I do agree with Timbuk2 that comments can be a barometer of the appeal of your work, but if you are living for the comments then you should consider going outside once in a while...take a walk or something. =^}

Just my 1.75 cents...

Truthfully, comments can be a barometer of your appeal to other Renderosity Fractal Gallery members, and very few others, lol. Yes, nice comments are wonderful, they give you warm, fuzzy feelings. And yes, you are more likely to look at the work of people who comment on your own creations, and you will more likely find them to be 'nice comment' worthy than images by people who you are not familiar with. That's just human nature. Have you ever noticed that people will agonize over what sort of car (house, computer, boat, anything) they should buy, but once they have bought it, they will think their choice is perfect. They will gravitate to things that remind them of their choices (colors, shapes, etc.) and find those things more attractive than other things. We are just like that. Like you, Keith, I wonder why this one and not that one (me) too, but although I keep trying to figure it out, I am no longer worried about it. I make my images to please myself, and when someone else likes them, I am delighted. I try to keep doing better images, and sometimes have one that I think is superb...only to have it get 4 comments :( Oh well. I just assure myself that it is an off day and go on making things that satisfy my creative urge.

Don't get me wrong - I definitely like getting nice comments on my work... but I don't exactly live for them... and I certainly don't create my images in order to get those nice comments either... If I see an image that truly moves me, I will comment on it. But otherwise, I really don't have the time or energy to go and comment on every image that is posted here daily. Truth be told - I tend to hit the forum rather than the gallery. I'm more an "information gatherer" than an "image browser" - I want tips people!!! I definitely check out all gallery image links that people post here in the forum - usually they are really wanting some feedback on technique or the like - which is much more interesting to me. I can learn something that way. The mutual backslapping thing just isn't my scene. T.

I don't build images for comments either, but sometimes I do wonder what it would take to get 60 comments. I wonder if it is possible to get in the most commented gallery based on the merits of an image alone and not on how I play the game. Again, I'm not complaining. I'm just thinking outloud.

First off, thanks Keith :D That really made my week! I'm sure Barb is equally happy as well. I'll add my thanks to her, as she has really been a big help here (she's the creative part, I'm more the diplomatic part, lol). As for the popularity thing...yep, human nature. We'll never get around that. However, as long as someone is happy with the work they do, then that is the real glory. I have to admit that lately I have not commented as much as I used to. Sometimes it's a factor of time, and others, well, I find it hard to verbalize what strikes me in an image, and not sound like I'm repeating someone else. On the whole, I think the quality of the images posted has really been increasingly outstanding. And the Fractal Community is filled with so many great artists, and genuinely good people, and I am happy to continue to serve as Mod here. Keep on doing what makes YOU happy...that's all that REALLY matters :D Nick

sharkrey his simply right that ,s the way how it works already for years and in each section and you have in each section the same problems and frustrations So why not delete that whole Hot 20 thing so as on Innertraveler.com ?? That Weekly Gallery is a very good alternative and i enjoy it to see there many members that i never see in the Hot list I think personal that anybody love it to have from time to time a picture in the spotlights I am do :-) But having each download in the Hotlist that is a complete another story and has not so much to do with quality however that is a old story and anybody know ,s how it works Folks have a nice day and Keith check again your comment box please i can now not my egg lose LOL stttt joke :-) I comment not so often on your work but be sure i am always a vieuwer of it, want not missed Greatz Arend

:) Yep, I'm equally happy. Thanks, Keith! With four days in a row working on nothing but the Community Page, your kind words made me want to keep working instead of getting some rest!

About "the game"... tres said it well: it's human nature. You will see this happening around you in real life as well.
Another thing to keep in mind is that although we are all fractalers here, that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody has the same goals. Some do it just for fun, some are hobbyists, some want to be (or become) great artists and some, yes, do it because of the thrill of getting praise. Not everybody might like that, but it is as valid a reason as all the others. Who are we to judge?
I'm an artisan as well and I used to hang in many crafts lists. People shared their creations, and no matter how horrible a piece was (in my opinion, of course), everybody praised the creator. I used to pull my hairs out (is that the right phrase?) until I realized some just enjoyed doing something they considered creative (even putting together pieces from a pre-made kit, lol). I had to realize they had different goals than mine. Sometimes when one is too obsessive about improving, getting better, discover new "angles" or whatever, forgets that those are things that keep ONE going, and not necessarily what makes others do the same things we do.

On a side note, making the FWW obligues me to a closer look at images, and I'm starting to note things I haven't before. I see some like to do the same things over and over (which is fine), but I also see others improving day by day, or experimenting new styles. This is not new, probably, lol, but actually seeing it happen is really something. :)
I wish I could have seen some of the biggest names in fractal art developing when they were just starting out.
Well, the Fractal Vintage Showcase might help with that :)))

Barb

Keith, I looked at your image, I don't think I left a comment tho' because it was going to be more about the trials of having teenage kids rather than the quality of your work! A fascinating thread this..As a new member to this group, I was in awe of the work, and to say the least TERRIFIED to post anything! I had one well known member who offered encouragement and as they say Robert's your Auntie's husband! I've never used any Fractal software until a month or so ago, so I have a heck of lot to learn. I try not to feel downhearted...not at the lack of comments...but my own efforts, At the moment I can only create what I am capable of creating with the little knowledge I have. It's great to get feedback tho' even if it is to tell me what the weather's doing in your area!!! Oh and I got a V yesterday...I was gobsmacked! Mac

It seems these popularity thoughts haunt you. And will forever :-) No, you are not just popular, a few or a few more of your images are very good IMO. And I tell you this as a comment under the images I really like. Images that do not touch me don't get a comment. And I do not distinguish between popular and non-popular artists. Or between my friends and others.

I can see in my gallery that some images get a lot of comments and others much less. I never understand this when I post them. But sometimes a few weeks later! When I have enough personal distance to this work. When I see it with different eyes than just after I have finished it.

And the V thing - I always find it disgusting. I never tell people that I vote or rank. I sometimes vote or rank. But I think it should be hidden like in an election.

Best regards,
Andreas

Gosh, Andreas, you do feel strongly about the V! ;~D I have voted on a few images, truth to tell I can't remember whether I actually commented on the fact that I had...but if I did...I was doing the "sheep" thing, doing what's been done before. When one tries to fit into a new community, it's often easier to conform on SOME things. You should not judge your work so critically with regard to how many comments you get....There are so many dynamics as to why people may or may not have commented on a particular day let alone on a specific image therefore it does not have any direct bearing on the quality of your image. I've viewed images at one time or another created by all the names on this thread, and I think you're all blooming marvellous....so there you go....!! :~) Mac

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 08:25

I'm not as obsessed with this as it might seem, but I do think about it, mostly for selfish reasons. Let me elaborate. I display my work on 2 web sites: my personal site and here. I wonder about the advantages and disadvantages of both places. I want my work to be seen. I want attention. I like it when I am told that my stuff is pretty good. Here my images are thrown into a pool with 500 other artists. My images might as well not even exist after the first few days of posting. They will not be seen again unless they make it into the best or most galleries, so I think about how to make it into those galleries. That's one of the reasons that I am irritated by the server error that caused the mess in the most viewed gallery. I might have a couple of images could get in there but they'll never make it because of those 3 days in October. The game isn't a bad thing. It naturally brings out the best in us, unless it is manipulated. Rick didn't get to the top because he manipulated anything. He got there because he's a great artist and a great guy. The game works as it should and the winners should take every advantage of it. Now, thanks to Nick and Barb, there's an area here that is outside of the game. It's a place where an outsider can see good fractal art that my not be the most popular.

well I posted a long involved response to this and it's not here. Of course I failed to copy it. Ok so short version. Love the idea of the new weekly picks. Gives us a wonderful new way, much easier also, to see progression in fractals overall and to see some of the gems we may have missed. I also tend to get upset when a fractal is off the pages after a few days. It means I've lost anymore chances of getting help with it. Though I lve the 'excellent, beautiful'comments, I REALLY look forward to the constructive ones. I like to know what can be improved or what sucks about an image. Tips are ALWAYS welcomed, lol. Keith, your images are and always will be top notch work! Don't worry about why this and not that. Each one is an inspiration but what Ireally like about you and your work is seeing the progression each fractal takes as you manipulate and improve each one. I learn quite a bit from that approach, thank you :). As far as the popularity contest, I agree it's human nature. Luckily I knew that before I joined here or I would always be depressed about it, lol. I've never made the H20, nor have I ever had very many comments. I did recently have an image in the weekly picks. That had me dancing in my offic and yelling so loud my kids heard me on the 3rd floor, ROFL. So anything more may actually bring the house down :D! I comment only because I really like an image, I have 3 kids so I value what little time I have. I post only because I like the results. Sometimes it may not be the whole image just an aspect of it. This is because I tend to work on one big project at a time and post bits of it, or examples, as I go. Sorry for the typonese today (for those of you not fluent in typonese, it's bad typing, lol) hands are not cooperating. Anyway there's my useless input :) Melissa

Lol, Keith, I didn't mean that you were obsessed... necessarily :) I meant maybe we become so familiarized with our own reasons to do things that we might forget that others might different reason to do the exact same thing. Meaning, we sometimes mix the "thing" itself with the motivation, assuming the two are one. I told you this because it happens to me often, until I sit back and look at the whole thing with some distance. Barb

To prevent images from being forgotten - an idea from www.photosig.com:
If you go to a home page of a user, you can see a list of all the images she/he has commented on. You can sort this list in several ways. This sorting in several ways would be a nice artist's gallery feature too btw...

Andreas

Melissa, there are no useless inputs here! :) I too look forward to constructive criticism, although it seems it is very difficult to get. One thing about it is that it takes more time and effort than a simple comment. The other thing is that many are afraid this would upset the creator. Maybe we should state under the image we really want constructive criticism. We could even come up with a common phrase everybody relates to (like the V) LOL Barb

I can see the point about upsetting the creator. I too tend to veer away from doing that unless I've seen them ask for it in the past. Maybe I will start adding that to every upload. Btw, how about C, critique, rofl! Nice idea Andreas, think I'll go play there now :).

It is what it is. It's not just a renderosity problem though. I post at deviantart because they have a print service and I can sell my art there. I spend almost all of my time there and see similar things happening there as it does here. No site is perfect in every way. On a side note, it is disappointing that when I do get around to visiting here, I have to go through the entire gallery looking for the best images. It would be nice if the Hot 20 was the best being posted, but it's not, and doubtful it ever will be. I'm a firm believer in the saying "If you are happy with where you are, you'll stay there forever." There have been countless threads started over the Hot 20 being a popularity contest. Months (years?) later, it still is. The majority of people seem to feel that having it as a popularity contest is what it should be. The only way it's going to be about the best art is if people change themselves and only vote for the truly best images. Good luck with that, history has proven otherwise. The only thing I think should be changed that can be changed is rename it. It should be called the Popular 20, because that's what it is. A rose is a rose, call it what it has become. I do feel for you Keith. A lof your art deserves to be there and more than not isn't. I used to feel that way until I totally gave up on the hot 20. I'm at the point now that if nothing I ever post makes it there, I'm just as fine as if it does.

oh well, i really wish ya could have days with 40 hours, for i, as a professional artist annex web-developer have a very busy schedule filled with deadlines and so therefor don't have much time to comment around on everyones amazing pieces of art ... i am tempted to leave constructive comments here and there who are mentioned in some hot list but if i get private messages back like "thanks for your sarcastic comments" or "ya can see at yer own sucking gallery that you don't have any interest for pieces of art" then i stop bothering and throw myself at my own work ... [i don't even have time to create graphical presentations for diverse game-developers, they just will have to wait or rely on others] i don't create fractals made out of formulas, i design them and they aren't made by coincidence but a combination of settings, which i love to assemble together in photoshop which takes me hours of work personally, i don't really care whether i have 50 comments or just 10, but i know for a fact that those 10 really mean of what is said in the comment, otoh i have great pleasure in seeing how many people buy my artwork every month, that gives me a much more satisfaction than a hot list, but not everyone is blessed with such a privilege Barbara and Nick created in cooperation with a few addicted volunteers an open door for newbees and potential artists in this community, and they are doing a very good professional job time to finish up and back to work again :P see ya around and have a nice day/night Harmen

If you check with a 2,9 on the big blind, then there's always a chance that you'll flop the nuts...But if someone raises, then you need to fold. This is an important piece of information to me, to others it just looks like crap. It's all in your perspective. Stop worrying about the stuff that doesn't matter and just enjoy the things that do matter. Matt.

I see two problems I would like to share: 1. It doesn't matter much for us that it has devolved into a popularity-contest, I mean we know to stay out of there if we want no part of the contest. But I do think it can fool new or less frequent members, believing it to be a place for the highest quality work. 2. It also works to exclude members who are otherwise great artists but don't have time enough to suck up, or haven't been around long enough to establish a 'higher social position'. It's been mentioned that different people posts for different reasons wich is true, yet here is a section of the gallery that blocks out a good portion of the memberlist as a consequence of their reason. Here's a sample of a comment: "VOTEVOTEFANTASTICAVOTEVOTE******** GREAT IMAGE SUPER FANTASY EXCELLENT "ARTWORK" SUPER COMPLIMENTS BRAVOOOOOOOO *BY"

Maybe it was really good image...? Nah, I agree. Some days when I look through the gallery I feel like 90% of the people leaving comments are 10 minutes away from a Prozac overdose. What can you do about it though? Ban them? Now there's an idea... Seriously though, when I see images with lots of those types of comments on them, then it will stop me leaving a comment. After they have received 15 or 20 comments like that on an image then they aren't gonna be very impressed when I tell them it is 'nice'. Matt.

Very well put. You get my VOTE VVVV!!!!!!!!###W^^^Q@@@@

I think this whole treat has no any value more anybody know how it really works in the practice ask your attention for "magic vision" 91 vieuws and 19 comments on this moment a very good fractal in my eyes inquisitive of you shall see it in the Hotlist I think not Fred is not a comment champion or vote guy so far i know Bad that not the image but the name is the limit very frustrating But i think not that it ever change So you have to live with that :-(( My honest opinion.... delete that whole Hot 20 circus it gives in each section only problems and frustrations Greatz Arend

i have been away for a while and only viewed and posted occasionally - and yet there is this ongoing concern with popularity

as i explore my ability to create interesting images, i am inspired by the works of others here

when I have the time i like to comment - probably too much - but sometimes i am in a zone and I can find interesting elements to almost all the images i see - but sometimes i run out of words or inspirations

and sometimes i find connections with others and this feels like a community - friends and colleagues rather than a competition - so I don't worry about the Hot 20 and look through the thumbs for interesting works

Until the last couple of weeks, i dont think i had posted any images here for about 6 months. I am definitely not a commentor of any proportion, in fact i rarely do it as i dont have the time to go through 4 or 5 pages of images. Yet the kind people in this gallery still made the time to leave their thoughts under my latest images, like i hadnt been away. ( thank you everyone ) Touching on the topic of your art truly moving someone, when i did finally log in here, i had probably the most wonderful and moving IM ive ever had. One of my pieces had touched someone deeply, in a different way that went beyond leaving a remark under the image. These are fantastic thoughts to get. To know that something ive made, has inspired a reaction like that inside of someone.If something of mine touches even just one person in that kind of way, it makes it all worthwhile, and makes worrying about things like the hot20 and popularity seem completely insignificant.

(Just a stray response to Tumbuk2...) One reason for 'saying' that a person is voting is to let the artist know.... The R'osity ebots don't, to the best of my knowlege, tell people that they have made the Hot20. This gives the artist the heads-up to keep an eye on the Hot20 list if they are interested in that. Personally, I never check it out... not interested in the 'game'. I do like the new Fractal Window Weekly and the Vintage showcases.. Yes, they are the result of just the individual's choices, but looking at them, I see that there is good criteria involved. I tend to enjoy the selection greatly. All the above is purely personal opinion. No facts or logic was involved in forming the staement. grin