A honest comment When you give a honest comment your a troll or a bitch. When peple let you comment why do they get so mad at you for telling as you see it? Has this come to the point that so many peple are afrade to post a honest comment for the fear of being a bitch? When you see a image and you think that you would have done better on some things say so tell them what you think could have done better . Everone here is here to tech and learn there are no big names here we are all just trying to do are best but when peple keep kissing your ass how are you to do your best if you don't know that what you are doing is not your best . I am so embearest at the Brilliant,Absolutely awesome,Excellent,Outstanding image comments when deep down you know its not that. I for one am not scard or afread to say it as I see it tell you whats not right will that make me a troll a bitch in some eyes yes but at the end the day I know I'm honest to myself and to my frineds and to many peple. I want to see more peple that have the balls to stand up and put there foot donw on the kiss ass comments. If you look at my work and see something that's done bad dam tell me don't try to kiss my butt and tell me its brilliant how will I learn from that. How will I try harder? Everone bitchse about the big bad top20 you know what I think about that from a few my posts you want to really see art then start telling ppl what you think I would rather peple respect me for being honest then kiss my ass because of how many friends I have I may not be popular but I get respect. I would like to put out a thank you to the ones who took a true honest comment the right way my hat is off to you. I want to see a new trend a real respect for work the honest and true comments. Now if you came one a image and it is better then you could do then a outstanding comment is a good and warranted one. We are not children we all can take to hart a good honest comment now and then and if you cant then you need to move on and get a new hobbie. So I ask who is with me? Who will join me in this new trend? Bobbie

I will. All the comments I make are purposeful. I make mention of the parts that I like and wether or not they were well done. I will admit that I am not the first to make a disparaging comment toward someone's picture but in that case I don't comment at all. I am new to poser, and to bryce and yet even that which I've been doing for a while (photography) gets me no critiques. Just nice happy general comments. That's nice and all, it's lovely to know that your work is being enjoyed. But Bobbie has a point - how the hell are any of us going to get better if all anyone's saying is "wow!" or "awesome" or "looks great!"? If you want to give someone's work an accalaide then compliment us on our lighting, the pose, the texture, the background. If you think something's off, tell us! Or, if you can't do either of those... don't say anything at all. Eridun

I don't think it is so much as to "what is said".......it is how you say it? Of course, I am probably wrong, as I seldom go to the galleries (just don't have time) and if and when I do..........I only comment on those that I like. To me....."Beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder, and possibly...the ones who do leave comments, are really "sincere" in what they say.....not just "kissing ass?" What do they have to gain in "Kissing anyones ass here?" The beauty of this site is: We are all at different levels of our talent/skills/knowledge. If we feel confident enough to post a picture, it is, perhaps, because we would like some acknowledgement, perhaps praise, perhaps help, etc. etc.? The person who is looking at the images then has a choice to "say" what-ever they want to say.......but many of them could take the time to think about "how" that may hurt the artist's feelings and may possibly "destroy" what-ever confidence they had in the first place? Yes, I know, it is not anyone's responsibility to "care" or "encourage" someone to continue their artistic endenvers......but there is a "nice" way to do things, and a "hurtfull" way too. Not everyone is as self-confindent as you are, and that is what you need to keep in mind. (: Just my 2cents....and I don't mean to rattle anyones cage.(:

I don't feel that I'm qualified to pick apart anyone's image. I comment when I truly like an image for whatever reason and don't feel that I'm ass kissing when I do.

Hmmmmmm.....

If you say: "Hey! This is great!" -- then you are a suck-up.

But if you say: "Your shadows don't look quite right" -- then you are a troll.

The lesson here is: you can't win.

Better not to comment at all.

Of course if nobody ever commented then none of us would ever learn anything. Personally I can usually tell the difference between honest, constructive criticism and somebody trying to be unpleasant, and I just ignore the latter. There are some comments which are difficult to classify like this, either because the commenter's native language isn't English or because they have an unfortunate way of expressing things, but that's life.

Those comments intended to be helpful, though, are worth a great deal, because they represent genuine criticism from which I can learn. Comments from friends or family are useless because they will presumably try to be supportive even if they think your images are dreadful.

For me, I know my images aren't very good, so I want people to comment and if they do say something constructive I can either listen and learn or ignore if I don't agree. The genuine trolls bother me not at all. But I do agree with one point - if artists don't like the comments they get, why let others make comments? It's just a tick box, after all, to remove that possibility (but then they wouldn't get the 'wow, awesome' comments that I guess they like).

There is no doubt that there are many images in the gallery's that aren't that great [I include mine in that] that get 20+ comments about how good and great it is even though it isn't because they know the person. On the other hand there are some really great images that don't get any comments, why I've no idea. probably because they don't have as many on-line acquaintances. That's just how it is, you'll never change it! Posting honest and polite criticism shouldn't get you labelled as a troll and I haven't really seen that happen, the problems come when the comments are overly aggressive or dismissive, those sorts of comments can have a negative effect on the artist. This is an old argument that won't go away, if you like something say so if you don't, well constructive criticism is fine, slagging off and saying it's crap isn't! Personally I post for my benefit and I have had some where someone has pointed something out and I've said "thank you" for telling me and then I've done it better next time or reposted with an improvement. Beer and crisps anyone!!!! :-^) thefixer poser coord.

If you post a render and you get comments you need to realize that there are folks out there who will make nasty comments. If you were posting in a real gallery and this happened to you would you expect the owner of the gallery to sooth your hurt feelings? You need to remember to take what is said with a grain of salt. If someone is trolling just ignore them, they are showing everyone by their comments that they are not intelligent enough to make a valid observation. And if someone says your render is awesome, wonderful or whatever, you can't jump into that person's mind and say they are just sucking up, to them it might be awesome or wonderful. Don't let your taste dictate to others. If you don't like something make a comment, (hopefully a constructive comment), or move on. Everyone has different tastes...leave it at that. If someone is truely a troll you only feed them by having the post removed. Marque

you can only please some of the time. hi , yes i feel very much the same way as bobbie, see past posts, and i to welcome comments, yes its nice to get comments that are wow,Brilliant,Absolutely awesome,Excellent,Outstanding, any artist needs these, that tells you your on the right lines, what your doing works, but i want, no. need to be told if something is amiss. one comment (out of many and thanks again to those that posted)"The intruders' armor all have the same battle damage" made me look at how i could change it and has sent me off looking at things i didnt think i could do. but have found that i can change this and that( i'm still new at poser)and will/has make/made my art better. as for how things are said, this will always be a problem, this forum is a doorway to the world, for some english is not our first Language. So i for one will say what types of comments i would like when i next post an image.

SoulTaker has it. I think if you want serious criticism at this point you need to indicate that in the text or in a first comment. I imagagine it would be dificult to change the set-up of the gallery now to feature seperate "comments welcome" and "critique welcome" options.

I had the same thoughts a few days ago. There was an anouncement which was listed as amazing or exciting (I cant remember which) Either way I thought it was just mildly interesting. An individual posted similar thoughts to myself to this thread and instantly was called a troll and an argument insued. Boy was I glad it wasn't me posting my thoughts, and I thought it a disgrace that you are not allowed to be non-plussed. Some people dont seem to realise that there are pesamists and optomists out there and not everyone is taking prozac to keep up the happy face. Happy, happy, joy, joy

i would love to see "comments welcome" and "critique welcome" options i think that would help and a lot ppl would welcome that I dont allways come off on the best note seeing as i spell for shit lmao But if ppl dont want a critique comment i would like to know as i really dont want to step on to many toes in one day lol

If you agree with someone, then you are a thoughtful/helpful/fine Human Being.

If you disagree with them, then you are a hateful/angry/wrong-posting-style/talks-too-much troll.

You cannot spend your life judging yourself by the standards that others set for you. If you do this, then you will never do anything.

There's always a jerk in the woodpile. Treat them as such. They won't like it -- tough.

Everybody handles criticism differently - both give and take. If you're going to put your business (your work or your critiques) out there for all to see you have to be ready to handle an infinite number of types of responses. The galleries to me are a vast sea of unknown people who may or may not be worth listening to and/or viewing works created thereby. I don't put too much stock in what gets said there unless what is said is obviously of value (which is of course subjective, but I think I have a decent sense of this that works for me). For instance, a "your lighting sucks comment" is nearly valueless, while a "try using a spotlight at position x of intensity y with hue z to match the light source in your background image" comment has value. Unfortunately the former type of comments outweigh the latter type of comments by a great deal. Both of course are completely outnumbered by the "it's the best thing I've ever seen" comments. Thus I hardly ever look at the galleries, I'm probably missing out, but I just don't have time to look through everything. I generally don't put up comments, I don't feel qualified.

Posting work in the galleries hoping for productive feedback/criticism is a losing proposition. If I really want criticism I post the image in this forum and ask for it. I've done it before and it's been extremely productive. I figure if people really want to improve their works they'd do the same. The gallery is just a free image posting site at best, an ego stroking ponzi scheme at worst. Critique there at your own risk.

Unzipped

Message edited on: 05/19/2005 13:17

I posted an image in the Vue gallery and after looking at it I knew it was terrible. So I asked for help on it. Sure, I could have deleted it, but I wouldn't learn anything either. Some of the comments stung, but they also had lots of ideas to make it better. I took in all the comments and redid the scene. To me it was 100 times better and I learned a lot. These people took the time to write out what I should change and I am grateful now that they did.

With such a nobel sentiment being framed, surely Bobbie won't mind my pointing out that he could do with some serious spelling and grammer lessons. Surely he'll take this comment in the spirit in which it is intended and improve his language skills.

" With such a nobel sentiment being framed, surely Bobbie won't mind my pointing out that he could do with some serious spelling and grammer lessons." Despite your noble efforts, I doubt you'll be winning any Nobel prizes for your spelling or grammAr either. I'm certain you'll take this comment in the spirit in which it is intended - blah blah blah. Maybe English isn't Bobbie's first language? 8P Unzipped

This has been a constructive and friendly discussion so far, let's please keep it that way everybody!!! thefixer poser coord.

Sorry, I was just joking around. Unzipped

[Surely he'll take this comment in the spirit in which it is intended and improve his language skills. /] psst bobbie is a Female I agree with whats being said here (apart from bobbie bein a dude :P ) I know that my work is horrid hte lightings always off or it just is to fuzzelated, or it looks rushed or i am just totally flusterated at poser for freezing the tenth time in a row i try to render..I get alot of comments (ok not a lot :P) saying the lighting is good or the composition is excellent and usually thats on pics that happen by accident..when itry to do good lighting its all fuggered up...there maybe 1 or 2 images in my gallery that i am satisfied with how they turned out..Sure the comments on excellent make me smile and say yay but as someone mentioned earlier beauty is in the eye of the beholder..we are our own worst critics..maybe these ppl that say ''excellent awesome wow or WHOA'' or VOTE..all the time really like the individulas style (mine? bwahahah my style sucks :P) anywho Honesty hurts sometimes ..truth hurts but i'd rather have the truth and feel a slight tinge of pain from it than go on doing crappy stuff (shh i know i still am) and thinking its good yet having some ppl who dont comment say ''ugh tha's awful wtf is wrong with ppl'' I am leaning more towards leaving comments off until i feel i have an image worthy of the ''excellents or greats or awesomes'' ok done rambling i forgot where i was going cuz im hungry :P

hmm..I was wondering about that..how do you tell a b*ch from a troll? Is there a guide somewhere?..;) I guess I'm in trouble; I tend to call thinks I like 'great' (I'm Pakled 'the great'..;), but I only leave comments like that on stuff I like.
As for stuff where I can see an improvement can be made, I only point out things I think I could have fixed myself, or know can be fixed..;)
As for the spelling, a goodly number of b's and t's out there aren't native English spellers..plus, I've noticed that even among those who are, the spelling and grammar get a bit creative, leading to some amusing and ironic titles and captions out there..just consider it entertainment, and pass over..;)
If you really need to feel better, check out the given troll or btches' gallery. If there's nothing there, there's nothing to worry about..;) (a base canard, but it makes some folks feel better..;)

i used to post what i felt were constructive crits now and again in the gallery. but, i've given up. i think folks want to hear...."awesome work of ART", or nothing at all. stuff like too much diffusion, lack of shadows, overdone reflection maps, and poor composition really, really bother me....but, they don't seem to bother anyone else. so, rather than be labelled a troll, i keep my mouth shut and move along. after all..if someone has 40 awesome work of ART comments, any remark i might make on having the main character plopped into the center of her temple with nothing to draw the eye to any other points of interest, no shadows, and crossed eyes would probably come across like trolling.

Mediocrity rules. It's hopeless.

Simple solution; If ya want Critique instead of Comments, put WIP in the title. Works fer me, anyway

I think if an artist wants constructive feedback they should state what they were aiming for in the image and ask for advice in the description section of the upload. If the artist's intention is unclear, most times the people giving feedback are just telling the artist what the critic would have done...projecting their tastes onto the artist's work. If an artist uses renders without shadows but is happy with that, it's a waste of time telling them to turn the shadows on....that's how the critic would render their own art, so it's not really giving helpful advice. I think the problem in the galleries most of the time is bad communication - of what the artist's intent is so that they can get the feedback that will actually help them. My two cents

I wonder if I'm missing something every time this discussion comes up, because I leave constructive criticism on images fairly often (it's always quite gentle, but still) and have never had any complaints or trolling. No offense intended to any commenting visitor who has been pounded by overly-sensitive artists, but I'd be interested in seeing just how your suggestions were worded. I've left suggestions for improvement on images by Prog, SofiaDeer and ToxicAngel (yes, I live life on the edge), and not only did I live to tell about it, but one of them personally wrote back and thanked me and another actually made the changes I mentioned. ;) Whenever anyone leaves ideas for improving my images, I always take them seriously and keep them in mind for future works. Someone mentioned a long time ago that my painted hair was a little too soft compared to the rest of the image, and I've gone to extra trouble to avoid that ever since. I really think it's more about how you phrase your comment than anything else. If your native language and the artist's native language aren't the same, say so; this will help prevent misunderstandings. Mix your suggestions with praise and try to avoid coming across as if you're a superior artist and I'm sure quite a bit more of these incidents can be avoided. Anyway, just my opinion as always. Thanks, take care. SnowS

When you give a honest comment your a troll or a bitch. Yes. When peple let you comment why do they get so mad at you for telling as you see it? You're only allowed to see it as utter perfection. Has this come to the point that so many peple are afrade to post a honest comment for the fear of being a bitch? Uh, yeah. When you see a image and you think that you would have done better on some things say so tell them what you think could have done better . That's part of critique, yes. You should also mention what does work, though, what the strengths are. Everone here is here to tech and learn That's where you make your mistake. Some people are just here for mutually maturbatory ego stroking. bonni

Being polite helps. Like SnowSultan, when I see something in an image that could be improved, I leave a suggestion on how to improve it, mixed with remarks about the things I do like. And like SnowSultan, I've never been accused of trolling, and I've received IM's thanking me for a suggestion. Most of the comments on my images are "great", "awesome" and more like that. A few have been left by trolls. But the rarest type is constructive criticism. And I'd love to see more constructive criticism - how else am I going to learn?

I made a similar experience as SnowSultan. I do the "This is great" show quite often, and I don't feel ashamed about it. I only do it when I really like an image or when I see that someone's making good progress. Quite often I find it hard to be more specific. And if I like an image, it's as with people I like: I tend not to see their flaws. :-) I also occasionaly point out things I don't like about an image or try to make helpful suggestions. I try to be gentle and friendly and start with what I like before I blurt out my criticism. If I don't find anything positive to say, it's probably not worth it to say anything, so I don't. I've never ever had anyone complain about my comments, but quite frequently people thanked me for pointing things out. The funny thing is, those were usually the people with the most skill (my personal, subjective judgement). So, either these guys have enough self-confidence alright to admit making a mistake or the reason they got so good is that they embraced criticism and really worked hard to get better. Which one do you think it is. ;-)

it's also a good thing, as you look at the critiques themselves, as to a gauge of how good you're doing. The critiques I'm getting lately are asking for fairly sophisticated stuff (like Photoshop), so I must be doing (fooling someone) right..;) and now, back to the perennial thread (also known as the neverending story..;) See what you can learn from what they say..

There have been times where I WISH that I could get some sort of constructive criticism. I want to get better at this, and if I'm completely suctastic at this, I wanna know. However, the closest thing I've gotten to cc in the past 6 months has been "where are her nipples" or something like that. However, there is a fine line between a troll and a critic (sometimes, the two are confused by those of an egotistical nature), and the one leaving the critique must think before leaving it, "Is this going to help the artist hone their skills?" I've seen some critique that, while it appeared well intended, contained language (not vulgar language, just words put together) that would imply either bitterness or a snide remark to the artist. Those don't help, either. Because, in the end, they don't know whether the person leaving the comment is serious about the "helpful critique", or just being a troll. I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but, hey, you get more flies with honey, than with vinegar ;) MS Poser Mod

I suggest that those that want actual critique of their images (even on an amateur level) present their images to those above who feel as Bobbie25 does (it would be far nicer to have a separate gallery for it, but thats never going to happen). This enables "artists" to hone their skills BEFORE posting images to the gallery, and avoid the non-constructive gratuitous comments like "Wow!", "Neato!", and "I love it!". BUT if thats the case, what then is the point of posting to the gallery at all? When you "share" the image in the gallery, you have to accept the voice of the masses, which as often as not is nothing more than "Wicked kewl!". In the same vein is the Rating System. I never use the rating system, because its a joke. I've seen people given realistic ratings (along with a critical explanation of why) only to be negated by a subsequent person who UPGRADES their rating to overcompensate because they didn't like the realistic rating. Its a travesty of a joke..

I thought there was a WIP gallery for that reason. If you want helpful critique, post there. I always thought the main gallery was for finished work. I must have missed the last memo. I don't post in the gallery very much lately because I'm doing more modeling than rendering, but, when I do, it's the finished version. Critique it if you want, just remember what you think should be fixed/done differently, may have been done on purpose. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to be one of the populars. All those wonderful clone comments, I'll take them if you don't want them.

"I think if an artist wants constructive feedback they should state what they were aiming for in the image and ask for advice in the description section of the upload. If the artist's intention is unclear, most times the people giving feedback are just telling the artist what the critic would have done...projecting their tastes onto the artist's work. If an artist uses renders without shadows but is happy with that, it's a waste of time telling them to turn the shadows on....that's how the critic would render their own art, so it's not really giving helpful advice. I think the problem in the galleries most of the time is bad communication - of what the artist's intent is so that they can get the feedback that will actually help them." That's the best suggestion I've heard in a long time since that seems to be 90% of the problem with comments. It would certainly get ppl on the same wavelength as the artist to know what the object they were trying to achieve was and allow other to give some more helpful advice. Since art is a communication skill and if your image isn't communicating what you wanted to say to the audience then the comments should provide feedback on how to improve it so the audience can get the message you wanted to convey better. It certainly would be better than the "Cool Image" and "Nicely Done" comments that ppl leave out of politeness for the effort because they don't know what else to say.

"Since art is a communication skill and if your image isn't communicating what you wanted to say to the audience then the comments should provide feedback on how to improve it so the audience can get the message you wanted to convey better." That's a good approach for any critic, but I don't think having the artist write an essay first on what they where trying to achieve is very practical. That's why I tend to comment on images that "speak to me" anyway. There's a certain chance in those cases that the communication might be actually working. Of course, technical or beginner's questions are a different story. These are fairly easy to express and most of the time as easy to answer.

Oops! Sorry for my spelling. Not a native writer, here. :-)

"If I really want criticism I post the image in this forum and ask for it." Unzipped has the right idea, if there is one. The gallery comments format is just not conducive to the type of real critique that some people want. The forum allows that plus you can easily post improvements and the threads to an extent can self-police out the trolls. Really, what you need is a separate critique forum for those who want this type of thing. The idea that people are wasting their bandwidth and aggravating their carpal tunnel just to issue insincere praise seems a little (a lot) squirrelly to me. If someone says "great" and they're not a member of your posse, then maybe, just maybe, they're being honest. Even if they're lying, people getting almost as upset about being praised as being dissed is just above my non-artistic understanding I suppose--but whatever.

That's a good approach for any critic, but I don't think having the artist write an essay first on what they where trying to achieve is very practical. That's why I tend to comment on images that "speak to me" anyway. There's a certain chance in those cases that the communication might be actually working. Maybe not practical for the hobbyist that just want to share their images and improve with practice through examples in the galleries which is the normal route here. It seemed to me that Bobbie25 was talking about something different that went beyond the normal methods, since it was mentioned I want to see more peple that have the balls to stand up and put there foot down on the kiss ass comments. If they have the balls to stand up to the empty flattery of the kiss ass comments then they should have the determination to put the effort into putting what they meant to achieve if they want serious feedback on what to improve

Attached Link: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

I would like to thank you guys for some of the very nice and funny post This is food for thought We will have a lot of fun and hear and learn for each other Hugz

At least in the still galleries ya'll have the opportunity that you might get some good feedback or constructive criticism. I've been trying to get the PTB to set up some sort of feedback ability for the animators for years. Literally! I would love to find out if my animations communicated what I intended them to communicate. I'd love to hear suggestions and ideas.

The point about WIP's is important. There's as it was said, a WIP gallery for things not quite finished. When I choose to post something here (not much nowadays because it's more..er.. adult themed) I consider it done. In general I do not intend to "correct" anything on my pictures. I have done it a few times, but in general? no. So do I want criticism? uhm.. not really Yes, if it's done properly. To me, if someone says "The shadows look wrong" then tell me WHY you think the shadows look wrong. I probably though they looked fine (or I would have done something about them before I posted the pic) but that doesn't mean they are correct. There's a pretty good chance I've overlooked something. But if you don't tell me WHAT is wrong, then there's no way I can learn from it and then the remark becomes useless trolling. EVEN if it wasn't intended as such.

Hey, you know what? The comments that really hurt me are those "Wow! Wonderful! This is lovely!" ones. I know my work sucks, and these kind of overly praisworthy comments just rub salt into the wound.

Attached Link: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

Message edited on: 05/20/2005 11:50

In my opinion, I just find there is a difference between critiquing on artistic merit, and critiquing on what someone likes or doesn't. I generally get this type of thing on other galleries, and not so much on renderosity. An example would be a painting i have done of a figure. I find it acceptable to tell me the shading is off, shadowing is bad, I missed details or could paint the hair better. I'm okay with something more like, "the expression seems a little too flat/ or / exaggerated". "Not enough details in the clothes", "You need to work on painting cloth more". These are all great recommendations and comments. Critiques that set me off? "She's too skinny", "I dont like that outfit on her", "I don't like her lips, they are too full", "he looks to effeminate", "Put more clothes on her". I am never looking to please everyone's tastes, and I often get comments like this, because, heaven forbid, I paint people with realistic bodies. Yes, stretch marks, acne, ill-proportioned features. People commenting sometimes miss, we're looking for comments on artistical merritt, not wether or not you'd sleep with the person we've painted.