What is up with the Poser People at Curious Labs, Why can't they Use or ask the people at Daze3d to use Victoria for the their future Models, Victoria, Michael and all the Millennium Family are a far Superior Models then anything they have ever had or released, I can't understand that one??? - Can you imagine Victoria 4 in Poser 7 Man oh man...it would be the bomb then...they should really consider this in the future releases...

Nice idea, but I'm not sure why it might happen. DAZ, with their Studio program, are no longer just content suppliers, they're competitors.

The models in Poser are given away free with the program so that new users have some content to work with as they are learning. CuriousLabs commissions and buys the rights to the models they include. There is actually quite a large amount of new free content with each version release. After they are comfortable with Poser, new users can go and purchase the right models for whatever art they are doing. If they want pin-ups with glamorous figures they can go get Vicky; if they want realistic figures, or toon figures, or even no figures at all, they can shop for other models. It is quite possible to use Poser without a naked woman on tippy-toes in the scene! DAZ makes most of its money from their stock figures and the brokerage fees from all the add-ons to support those figures: morphs, textures, clothes, hair. It's hundreds of dollars for each figure once you start adding up all the costs. If Poser came with the DAZ figures, it would have to sell for several hundred dollars more in order to cover the costs of the models... that would be forcing people who don't want those models to buy them anyway, and would push Poser into a higher-piced market, where sales of the core application would be affected. That would be really bad for CuriousLabs. If the Millennium 4 family, and some clothes and hair and morphs and poses were included free with Poser... why would anybody buy at DAZ? Their cash stream would trickle down so that they would only have income from some brokered items. They would have to charge more for their software if they weren't selling original content. Studio wouldn't be free and Bryce and the other programs would be pushed into a higher bracket and their sales would be affected. That would be really bad for DAZ. And, most of all, the higher prices and lack of choice would be really bad for all of us. Why play a game where everybody loses? Carolly

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=866996

'If Poser came with the DAZ figures, it would have to sell for several hundred dollars more in order to cover the costs of the models..' I have to disagree with that, carolly. Now that DAZ give away vicki/mike free, that argument doesn't hold water. I'm not saying DAZ wouldn't want some sort of return, but in view of the amount of sales they'd get from add-ons, they'd probably keep it to a very nominal sum. I do agree that Curious Labs don't really need to add that sort of content. As you say, people can get their toes wet with the default figures, then decide what they want to buy. Nor do I agree with Antonia that DAZ are competitors to CL. The two companies are providing software, but they both know that more software choice only increases user interest. Steve yatson's comments during the P6 release on the 'imaginary' rivalry between CL and DAZ were quite iilluminating. (Basically he said the 'rivalry' is all in our collective imagination, and the two companies get on fine now). I will make one wild prophesy. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Zygote arming their way into the market through CL. They seem to be trying in every way imaginable to become a recognised content provider. mac

Does anybody know if DAZ3D is still part of Zygote? I know that Zygote was originally the parent company of DAZ. If so, it seems odd that they are marketing their stuff through Content Paradise but DAZ isn't.

DAZ was spin-off of Zygote about 6 years ago. Zygote Media Group is, I think, another spin-off of Zygote themselves, although I may be wrong on that. They may just be Zygote. Bryan Brandenburg worked for DAZ until recently, then went to Zygote MG. I believe he may be the prime mover behind ZMG's move towards content again. He's certainly very aware of the potential in selling poser content. That last part is pure speculation on my part, BTW. mac

To answer the question directly - DAZ is not part of Zygote. According to DAZ's company history, they never were. DAZ immediately became a separate entity as soon as it was founded. I guess there was much legal wrangling for them to get the pre-DAZ content they now own.

Most of the responses fail to realize that if the models that came with poser weren't so lame then Millennium Models wouldn't be needed at all. It's hard to make just a few varieties of people with poser's stock models. The varieties being tall, short, skinny, fat, young, and old. Thus, the Millennium figures are needed. Instead poser is more of a hook to have people by more from content paradise. Consumerism at its best. I use to love poser but watching poser grow has been a serious let down. I was excited about the content of Poser 6 until I saw renders of it. The knees and toes of Jesse pose terribly in a program named poser. Ironic. Most people are defensive when people critique poser for what reasons I do not know. They act as if poser is perfect and the consumer wants too much and is impatient and is to blame. These are probably the reasons why poser isn't getting any better. Ironic.

Message edited on: 06/05/2005 19:34

Poser models lame? As of Poser 6, I'm no longer convinced of that. James looks phantastic. Jessi's defaults may be a little weird, but no Vickie has been looking great out of the box, either. With the DAZ morphs, it's really hard to obtain any interesting characters, except aliens, monkeys and such. Jessi with RDNA morphs is already pretty versatile, although there are few special effects morphs. It's true, the rigging doesn't work very well, and CL is thus to blame for having released a seriously defficient product. Hopefully, it's just that and no underlying mesh problems. Anyway, for me Jessi clearly beats both V2 and V3. I haven't used Michael, so I can't say how he compares to James. In the end, it's probably a matter of taste. If Vickie 4 comes with a low poly-count, some really good rigging and decent morphs for such things as finetuning the eye and nose shapes, then we're talking again.

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/information/index.php?page=history

DAZ didn't make Dork and Posette "for" Poser 4. Sorry, but I happen to have the computer graphics magazine article from 1998. The figures were already being sold by Zygote as stand alone figures, for hundreds of dollars, and MetaCreations managed to license the rights to include them in Poser. Maclean, DAZ only recently let V3 and M3 go for free, and that is a barebones deal: no textures, hair, poses, or morphs beyond what is needed to open their mouths. So you save 70 bucks on the figure but spend several hundred more to make it look human... and then you have to clothe it. It is a competitive marketing ploy to ensure that any other figure developer enters the market at a severe disadvantage and only because of the recent development of what might possibly be competitive figures on several fronts. The figures included in Poser already have wardrobes, hair, and at least 1 included texture. Morphs are minimal because of the face room and morph putty. Someone just starting doesn't need a flagship queen, just a human-looking body to dress and pose and light and render. After they've learned the basics, then they can make intelligent purchases based upon whatever type of art they are going to be doing... anime, courtroom forensics, aliens & war machines, architectural renderings, fairies & unicorns, and ads for exercise equipment don't really need V3, do they? But pin-ups or celebrity portraits or gallery images where everybody is using the same character in the same clothing and pose do require joining the group and buying all the add-ons. Carolly

so the Daz claim to the figures is an outright lie?

"so the Daz claim to the figures is an outright lie?" No. Before DAZ, Zygote had a Poser division, they made the models. Later, Zygotes Poser division broke off and became DAZ. Coldrake

Khai, Let's go back to a couple of the characters I made for Ultima Underworld 2... the bats which burst into flame and the pain-in-the-neck spotted cats. The company which built the game was known as Blue Sky at the time, but had to change it because of conflicts with another Blue Sky (like 2 game companies which both thought that "tsunami" was a great name). So Blue Sky became Looking Glass Technologies, and the game was published under that name. They were acquired by Origins, which was acquired by Electronic Arts. So... do I say that I built and animated those critters for EA? Nope. My resume lists company names at the time of the project (name on the check) because I frankly don't want to keep track of who is acquiring what, or spinning off who, and which names are going where... much less the fluidity of personnel. I have done work for EA... but they get credit for those games where I directly contracted with them. Suppose that I accept a leash and get hired as an employee... let's be really wild and say, by DAZ. Could DAZ then claim to have built those bats and cats? Considering that DAZ didn't even exist at the time? If you are an employee, can your company then claim credit for everything you have ever done? Carolly

ermm... wtf? could you boil that epic down to "yes" or "no"? that would really suffice.. your life history.. well.. nice but not relevant, thanks all the same..

My question again: Jessie was promoted as a realistic figure yet anyone I show it to suggest it is eaither a realistic Toon figure or a realist space alien. I find the whole matter puzzling to say the least. Meanwhile Saraphina, an actual individual, is creating a realistic figure that puts V3 to shame.

Khai...ermm....how rude! And how rude of me to remark: how rude... Like a wheel within a circle...

"so the Daz claim to the figures is an outright lie?" No. However, the conclusions leapt to by many people regarding statements made by them confuse and sidestep the claims they have made -- aided and abetted by statements of claim that are rather, um, poorly worded. "What is up with the Poser People at Curious Labs, Why can't they Use or ask the people at Daze3d to use Victoria for the their future Models, Victoria, Michael and all the Millennium Family are a far Superior Models then anything they have ever had or released, I can't understand that one??? " hrmm. Going for my best guess here on what you are actually asking.... Could be because the DAZ makes more money from selling the figure independently, and CL/EF didn't want to spend the money themselves when they can hire other folks tro make new figures for a lot less. As for "Victoria, Michael and all the Millennium Family are a far Superior Models then anything they have ever had or released" -- I'll beg to differ in several aspects, as I find them less than than superior to some of the figures -- just shows that personal preference (in this case, the preferences of the people who decide on the shiped content) plays a huge role in this. "Or does this refer only to birds, worms, and fish...?" nah. It applies only to things that actually exist. You can make a graven image, or a likeness, of anything that is not in the heaven above, the earth beneath, or the waters below.

LOL @ ynsaen! That explains Diana of the Ephesians. She was their mother goddess, and the statue shows her with 50 breasts. The guy who carved it was perhaps rather certain that such a creature was unlikely to be found in this reality. The Assyrian winged bulls are pretty unlikely, too, and I've yet to encounter a gryphon or manticore. Hmm... all those chapels dedicated to Mary with paintings, incense, candles, chants are more problemmatical than some guy's pentacle with devil-headed snake-tailed goat! ;^) Carolly

DAZ only recently let V3 and M3 go for free... It is a competitive marketing ploy to ensure that any other figure developer enters the market at a severe disadvantage It is a marketing ploy, but it's more to entice new users into buying all the extras than any serious attempt to stifle competition. Anybody bringing a new figure into the marketplace was at a severe disadvantage long before V3 and M3 were put out for free. Add up all the content for all the non-DAZ female figures on the market and it's a tiny fraction compared to what's available for just V3, let alone V2/V1, S3, The Girl, and Aiko. It's hard for DAZ to get somebody to buy textures, clothes, and other products for their figures if that person doesn't own the figure. Giving away M3 and V3 is a way to let new users get used to those figures with the expectation that a lot of those users will be buying the morph packs, textures, clothing, and so on. Like any company, DAZ won't be shedding any tears if this makes it more difficult for competition. It's not as if there has been any significant competition from any other figures prior to DAZ's main figures being offered for free. That's not to say that there haven't been very good figures from sources other than DAZ--those other figures simply haven't been embraced by the Poser community to the same degree as DAZ's figures. No bias is intended for DAZ products--there is simply far more community and market support for Victoria than any other figure by a wide margin. If DAZ is concerned about anything related to their figures, it's more how to increase the size of the marketplace than competition for their human figures. The primary Poser competition DAZ faces is not in their human figures, but in the complementary products sold for those figures. There are more outfits and textures sold in non-DAZ markets for V3 and M3 than there is at DAZ. Poser users, as a whole, are spending more money in non-DAZ markets supporting DAZ products than they are for non-DAZ figures. Probably the main reason why DAZ won't likely license their figures to be included in new versions of Poser is that doing so gives new users less reason to visit DAZ. Right now, any new Poser user will eventually find their way to DAZ to get V3 and M3. Include it with Poser and the average new user may not even realize who created the figures. It's a psychological thing that unconsciously makes a difference in how a new customer views DAZ. In the current situation, DAZ is perceived as being the makers of the most successfully marketed Poser figures. That means something more than just being one more Poser marketplace supporting figures included with Poser. Perceptions like that matter.

Hold on, I actually like the P6 models. They're a very welcome change. I would be really dissapointed if V3/M3 came with Poser (or any other DAZ figure). Besides that imho James is far better then Mike 1/2/3 has ever been. I think James is awesome. Jessi, she's ok, not great, but still pretty good. I'm not sure if I do like her better then V3, but then again, I don't like V3 either. Both of them aren't that great at all.... unless you're into supermodel stuff and I'm not.