Narcissus work on NeJa, a Judy/NEA hybrid made me spent a little time with Judy, and it is obvious why she failed:

Successful Poser meshes must have a cute face, a shapely body and the ability to enlarge their breasts even beyond resonable size.
(Bending and good mesh layout are usually just nice add-ons.
Unless a mesh is REALLY screwed up (Like Renda was), most folks dont care much about the mesh as long as it LOOKS good) ;-)

So lets see what weve got with Judy:

She bends nicely, and shes the only anatomically correct female mesh that was build that way from the start.
OTOH shes got an ugly face, way to big hips and butt, and the boobs are cut in a way so that they are almost impossible to morph.

But lets handle every problem one by one:

The Face:

I wanted to keep Judys head geometry as I already have a V2/Judy and NeJa.
I ALSO wanted her to be still immediately be reckognized as "Judy", but still be more attractive, of course:

Two hours and a dozend magnets later, this is what Ive got:

Both use the default loRes Judy texture, I just changed the diffuse color on "Jennifer", as I dubbed my new version.

Now for the hips:

I reduced the hips and buttocks width, and increased the abdomen width.
Reshaped the genitals slightly, and now Jennifer has a more slender shape, still more "curvy" than Vickies default shape, though:

Now for the butt:
Reducing the z-scale of the hip and buttocks as well as some magnets make for a nicer shape:

Now for the (most important? ^-^ ) part:

BOOBS. LOL.

Ever tried to reshape Judys breasts ? NO WAY, at least not with magnets.
OTOH reshaping Posettes chest is a breeze, so I had to do something radical:

I reshaped Posettes chest, collars and shoulders to match Judys, and made new abdomen, neck and forearm parts to make them fit to Judys original parts.

After that all I had to do was adding some magnets and doing some fine tuning in Wings3d, to finally get:

JENNIFER:

Now someone hand that girl a sword and point her in the general direction of the next available temple. :-)

Thanks for looking,

stahlratte

What is this fixation people in the Poser community have on grotesquely enormous breasts? I think they look hideous myself, and I'm a guy who likes women. I'll see a thumbnail in a gallery of a woman with a pretty face, click on it, and it is obviuos the person who created the render went to a lot of care to set up the lighting, props, costumes, textures, and scene. But the whole thing is ruined by having breasts on the character the size of Idaho. How about making the character look like something you won't see in a sleezy strip club?

Everything is bigger on stage. Sometimes a person exaggerates what the person wants to emphasize. So, if it's important that the character be seen as sexual, one might emphasize things archetypically associated with being sexual. Ironically, I spend a heck of a lot of time trying to put a few pounds on Victoria and Michael. The 'heavy' morphs from DAZ are completely inadequate, because they stretch the body out of shape. Apparently, to the designers of these figures, heavy must necessarily equate to ugly or deformed. There's no concept of heavy (or even average weight) and attractive.

Nice Job stahlratte!
However I think this face needs very much work!And I know you are good at this so I know from some time from now Judy will have a new face! The way you made Simeon from Nea proves your abilities!
As for the body I would suggest you to start from Yamatos NewJudy AnAn instead of the default Judy he has put additional polygons where needed and the result is very good!
However the Posette chest is a good idea!

Except NeJa I am working a hybrid with Yamatos NewJudy!

pitklad

Wondering why you would use parts from another figure instead of regrouping the original. Is there an advantage to this and what is it. I'm always looking for better ways of doing things.

One advantage is that any posette breast morph will work...
I made some test and found out that a way to improve the 2 breasts on the chest -possete style grouping- can be improved with bodyhandles to control every breast individually (this should be on NEA 2 for sure!)

Also this is possible since Judy is posette with more polygons
If you look the mesh it's obvious

I like seeing variations and experiments! New&old ideas mixed :^) push the figure creation front!

Something about Judy's face that I always hated is her nostrils!totaly unreal and recognisable!

Stahlratte I believe you should go for a completely new face for her!

pitklad

What is this fixation people in the Poser community have on grotesquely enormous breasts?

In my entire life, I have never met a woman in real life who had breasts the size of those that the poor women of Poser have to endure. They only seem to show up on Maury Povitch, Jerry Springer, and other shows that thrive on the unreal and the unusual.

If there ARE women who have breasts that large, they are either involved in a profession that exploits that feature, or they pay to have them reduced in size so that they don't have to live with extreme back pain and bra straps cutting into their backs.

Oh well ...

Message edited on: 07/01/2005 19:41

Quote - watching the knee jerk reactions of the moron majority never looses its entertainment value for me. But if bitching about the position of vertices in a 3d mesh makes your day, I have several of other artificially enhanced characters I could render and post just to piss you off. ;-)

Good job on Jennifer! Those watermelons aren't exactly attractive, but they show what the regrouping has done for the morphability of the breasts. No way to blow up Judys breasts even half that much without breaking the mesh. The changes in body and head shape are subtle, but I think Jennifer is a lot more attractive than Judy - not counting the breasts, of course. Does Judy clothing still fit Jennifer?

I see what you mean about the body handles. So, if Judy is just a Higher rez Possette, couldn't you just regroup judy's chest and collars the same as Possette's? Then body handles would work the same way? I know, you would have to make new morphs. I don't know enough about all of this, that's why the questions.

Body handles in Posettes grouping are great for gravity and even size! Without having any morphs you can change the mesh! If Judy was regrouped the same way then the result would be tha same I believe.... pitklad

Does the jennifer figure work in the face room? If it does then it will be excellent.

@beryld : Cant add much to what Narcissus already explained.
Regrouping Judys chest would have worked, too, but by using Posettes chest I also got her nice default boob shape thrown in for free.
Also most meshes seem to be built around the grouping and I had problems with welding geometry in Wings3d in the past, so I just thought it was "safer" to use Posettes already nicely grouped geometry.

And besides that I also just wanted to see if it could be done. LOL.

@svdl:

Give that man a cigar ! :-)
"No way to blow up Judys breasts even half that much without breaking the mesh."

Exactly that was my point. Judys default chest only allows slight modifictions, whereas Posette is MUCH easier to morph.

From Idaho to Rhode Island in just a half an hour in Wings:

"Does Judy clothing still fit Jennifer?"

I didnt move centers nor did I change any joint parameters, so original Judy clothing will fit fine.

@xantor
"Does the jennifer figure work in the face room?"

Hmm, yes, but...
Jennifer face is just a morph of Judys mesh, so the face room morphs applied to the head still work.
The problem is that the face room also (sometimes) morphs the neck, and Jennifers neck is custom made, so neck modifications wont apply.
That means you will have to manually readjust the neck to the new head you created in the faceroom either with magnets or in a modelling app like Wings.

@nercissus :
Thanks for the kind words, but there is already Eternal-Judy out there for those who want a REALLY different Judy face.
The point was that she should still be recognizeable "Judy" without beeing soooo ugly.
(So that poor Don can finally leave the nights on at night) ^-^

And V2-Judy and NeJa are (ore will be soon I guess) also already out there for those who want really beautifull Judys.

But Judys original head has some really cool morphs, so you never know, I might spent a little with her in the future.

As for AnAn, yep, she has some more vertices where necessary (The BOOOBS, LOL) but I wanted to keep vertice count as low as possible.
AnAn knees bend better, but personally I like original Judys shoulder and buttock joint parameters better.
IMO V2 and Stephanie I(And loResV2 and V3) are already almost perfect medium sized meshes, so I dont want to make Posette (NEAena) or Judy compete with them by raising their polycount.
Especially not as one looses all existing morphs if doing so.

Just for the record here is Posette with her left breast manually subdivided in Wings3D:

Would be no problem doing this for her whole body, but then again ALL morphs would have to be remade.

stahlratte

Message edited on: 07/02/2005 05:08

Just as an afterthought: Of course Jennifers face and reshaped body (Minus the boobs, of course) can be applied to original Judy without problem. And THAT Jennifer would be 100% faceroom compatible without limitations. stahlratte

The neck thing probably wouldn`t be a problem, will jennifer be available soon?

As a member of the "moron majority," which apparently means people who find distortions of female breasts unattractive, I'd like to suggest that you make some morphs that allow you to blow up feet, collarbones, and ears, then we can find those ugly too. The idea that Judy is "ugly" is almost as moronic as the idea that a watermelon-breasted clone is "better." Judy's "ugliness" consists in part, if you read the posts about her carefully, in her vulgar resemblance to a real, human woman rather than a perpetually teen fantasy. The mesh has some problems, which is no surprise, given the miserable history of the release of P5. Why someone didn't do a fix as part of the SR process is a mystery. But those of us who prefer our women untouched by the various dream factories will continue to use her for now. As for Jennifer, perhaps the fixation is on nursing? Ummm, um, um, mah mah. Who knows? M

The problem with the default being so specific is every morph is trying to erase the "old Judy" meaning compounded fix data, meaning morphs aren't mixable.

Also there is an issue with her being derived from Posette and Daz holds the rights to posette.

Anyway, kudos to your cleverness. I have the most respect for anyone who tackles any aspect of figure design/modification.

You design ideas are really sound and the reasons for the things you have done I agree with. Can the face room repair her eyes at all? My biggest gripe with Judy was her eyes being choppy.

Just off the top I think this is how I would probably alter the default Judy face.

Message edited on: 07/02/2005 06:48

For a more attractive face I use this settings on Face room:

age - younger/older : -0.3
gender - male /female : 0.5
standar figures - Judy : 0.3

I'm afraid that if you change everything on the basic obj of P5 people they don't work right on the face room,I've tried to remmap Don in the past and after that I got an error message...
However the morphs can be loaded as obj

My opinion will be not to use posettes chest just group the existing Judy to posette grouping and also add some polygons
then abb bodyhandles.

Then making new morphs will be much easier!

Also if you need any help just send me a message!

pitklad

@byAnton:

"Can the face room repair her eyes at all? My biggest gripe with Judy was her eyes being choppy."

Dunno, judge for yourself: Still choppy ? ;-)

(Made from default Judy in the face room.)

And many thanks ! :-)

@Narcissus: NICE one. Ill have to try that settings out.

:-)

stahlratte

It all looks pretty good to me. You never know the reasoning behind things unless you ask. I use Wings a lot myself, quite often I move my models from one modeling app to Wings for the finishing touches, just easier for me. I learned on Wings first. Thanks for answering my questions.

Oh cool. The eyes look better for sure!

stahlratte, I love the work you do. My final solution was just applying the default face room head to Judy. I nice handsom woman without any work at all. I have driven myself absolutly crazy trying to scale Judy's breasts down to a smaller size. I like the wide hip small chest "A shape" physique for much of what I do... I found it common among "life-models" I used to have access to, along with chubby pettite look, and elderly. Best heavy figure? Victoria PreTeen. Buy a package like Dawn Petite ($6.95?) or use a freebie morph or magnets to develope PT's age and play with the heavy morphs... amazing! Realistic fat distribution!!! I use a VickyPT with V2 morphs moved over as a "composit" figure. Some people like my old P4 heavy/old/young figuires... My V1 heavy figure was pulled from the store when V2 came out but I giot emails from people who wanted me to keep that and make a M2 Heavy also even after M2. I hope not to boast... but honestly I realy do get nice email about those old crappy P4 "grandparent" figures I made when the only FBM was Hero/Barbarian... mine were attempts at realistic as opposed to balloning weight. Staale double skined P4 Nude Woman figure also has great, really great, morphs and you can repoint it to the regular P4 to have normal mapping. The judy eye problem is a weird flatness I think... have not figured out what to do about it. Eternal Jusdy has great head morphs and a neat morph to male but I could never get the lips not to look EJ. I wish I could afford the $40 MorphWorld2.0 disc since it has Azura, Traveler's hi-poly Posette with all its morphs. My one complaint with the Posette varients and the V2RR and V2RR I use is the faceting in the breasts, I am not big for breasts (not part of the culture I grew up with) but I find it dificult to smooth the faceted lower edge of the breast out in post work without making a mess of it. I would sure apreciate a regrouping of the Judy chest/breasts even if it voided the few morphs available if it let me magnet properly. Breasts body-handles seem a must for a new character to me! I wonder if handles could help fix the horrible outer shoulder bulge all poser figures suffer from? Or the distended armpits when the figure is posed with arms up? Another wish item for me in a new figure would be armpit hair parts to be transmapped... esp. on a free figure... all avialable armpit hair is commercial and the transmapps are not exactly great. Armpit hair might also hide some of that underarm bend problem. I am think that the work by stahlratte and narcissus is where it is all at for me now. Anyway... narcissus and stahlratte, you are most excelent!

Thanks for the kind words momodot!

what do you meen when you say:

"horrible outer shoulder bulge all poser figures suffer from? Or the distended armpits when the figure is posed with arms up?"

can you show this in an image?

When you say about armpit hair do you meen for a female model also? Judy is already ugly this should just kill her! :^)

pitklad

I also think sexy armpit hair and I like hairy legs too but only in men :^) I just don't think it is something a female figure should have by default. Thanks for sending the image now I understand what you meen about the shoulders.... pitklad

There actually are people and nations that find a more natural woman to be sexier/more attractive than a shaven one. 8-)

I think it looks gross.