Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/~pzr/backroom/index.htm

I've refrained from making a comment on these staff picks, but I guess now I will do so for once. Why, time after time when a discussion is arising on the Hot20 were told that they do not reflect the variety in the community and the talent in it at all. Instead we should take a look at the Staff picks posted. Well, Ive done so for a while now and I've got very mixed feelings about this. I do agree about the variaty at least the pics aren't all of one sort, so that's very good! But, there are a number of pics there that worry me though. There are some pics there that aren't talented at all and hardly deserve a look at. Some of them are just beginners pictures that didn't involve any skill or hard work at all. They made me laugh (really) and shake my head. Secondly, there a few there that hardly even deserve the label Poser. Excellent pics, but Poser was hardly used and when it was used it was very briefly and very basic. Imo a number of them indeed do deserve a look, but some of them.....

Well, thanks for that. It's always good to hear how you feel, Ben. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

Well I liked the pictures especially the emoticon one and the snail.

I really liked almost all of them too :)

Thanks for the negativity. You can always be counted on. I like them too. Good choice of images.

Don't know where I've been but I didn't even know there was a staff picks! lol Cool! I think they're a good choice too, I like Dorkati's a lot and Invisible_Sun's.

Personally, I enjoyed most of these images. I like seeing images by newcomers - I've only been doing this for about a year, myself. BUT, I have to agree with aeilkema on one point: Could the coordinators at least TRY to focus on images where the work was done in Poser? Otherwise, you should go post them in the "Any Damn Graphic Package(s) You Feel Like Using" Backroom. Seriously, when I go to the Poser Backroom, I'm not looking for Photoshop paintings...

LawnDartLawnDart wrote: "Thanks for the negativity. You can always be counted on." That was a personal attack, LawnDartLawnDart and as such, completely unnecessary. Let's keep this forum thread civil, please.

Ya know, it says at the top of the page that: "This page links to the Poser Team's favourite picks." Not your favorite picks, theirs, they post images THEY feel are worth a look according to their own tastes. You may not be happy with their choices, but hey, lots of different tastes and the staff isn't bragging they're the best art critics out there, they're just posting their own favorites for the fun of it.

well, the smoldering coming out of this thread led me over to look at those images. most are pretty decent.

Lucie wrote: "Ya know, it says at the top of the page that: "This page links to the Poser Team's favourite picks." Not your favorite picks, theirs, they post images THEY feel are worth a look according to their own tastes. You may not be happy with their choices, but hey, lots of different tastes and the staff isn't bragging they're the best art critics out there, they're just posting their own favorites for the fun of it." And that's... OK. It'd just be cool if they'd post their favorite POSER renders, IMO. This place REALLY needs a "Postworked" forum...

Art is subjective...always has been, always will be. Personally speaking I haven't agreed with the choice of the Turner Prize committee once...but they get to choose who wins, not me. My personal opinion is worth squat to them, but it means something to me. Animals sliced in half and preserved in formaldehyde don't hold a candle to Bresson, or Hogarth, or even Geiger and Sorayama as far as I'm concerned, but that isn't the point. I've been included in the Staff Pics once, and images that I've made that I personally rate much higher haven't got a look in. Just because I like them doesn't mean they're better, they just appeal differently to someone at a given time. If we develop a set of rules for "what is art" then we've destroyed the essence of what art actually is. Just a 3:45 in the morning ramble by yours truly. ;)

Hmmm, I just took a look at all of the images and I think they are all very well done. Each has its own merits, and although not all are the same type of image (some realism, some just cute,) they are all very nicely done. As far as the whole postwork thing, only one of them that I saw gave credit to postwork, and that was for compositing. Why is it always so hard to believe that people can make high quality images in Poser, yet so many clamor for the purist view that Poser should be an end all to the process? If so many people feel Poser is that advanced, then why not believe some individuals have mastered the render process? Why not take a chance and actually believe that an artist did put enough effort into an image in Poser that it came out so great, especially if they don't say they did any postwork. (Not that I think postwork is such a bad thing anyway. It is an accepted part of the process for many people. I haven't done much in the way of postwork myself, but if I felt it would improve my final piece, I would be more than willing to do it! ;-)

DaQuestioner: I was just calling it as I saw it. I didn't mean for it to come out the way it did. But after reading your post and re-reading mine, I can see how it did come out in the wrong tone. I do apologize to the group and it won't happen again. I guess it goes to show that we can ALL work on our attitudes a little. :) Cheers, Joe

Most of them are excellent as said before. But my point is that in all of these Hot20 threads some of the moderators are quick to say that their choices are the real cream of the crop and that those backroom picks should be looked at as such.

Well, there not. They're just moderators favourites, but the do not neccassery are the most talented or best there are.

That is what I commented on, imo whenever there's a Hot20 thread again, moderators should refrain from making comments like 'look at the backroom pics'. These are favourites and not more then that.

That's my point, I'm just refering to comments made by a number of moderators and how they feel about the backroom pics, but it is clearly that that's not what the backroom is all about. This isn't about the pics themselves, but about the comments some of the moderators make about the backroom.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 00:56

"This isn't about the pics themselves, but about the comments some of the moderators make about the backroom." I think you must be reading something differently to all the rest of us. Nobody has ever, to my knowledge, suggested that the staff picks are the cre de la cre or the "hottest new talent" or "the best in the site". They're just our faves. We might present it as an alternative list to the Hot 20 - but never as some kind of "Elite" thing. Personally, I like to try and pick images which have not many views or comments as they perhaps deserve. Sometimes that means I'll pick an image which may not be technically excellent, but speaks to me on an emotional level. I can do that because... it's a personal pick. One of the perks of being on staff :-) Don't forget, folks, there's also the "Cool Images" section on the Community Page which are submitted by members. Just send one of us an IM to suggest an image. That section's got a little quiet lately, so maybe everyone forgot about it ;-) Cheers, Karen :-)

Its hard to be a mod... ;)

"Nobody has ever, to my knowledge, suggested that the staff picks are the cre de la cre or the "hottest new talent" or "the best in the site"" Well Karen, even as a mod you can't know or remember everything can you? So allow me to quote one of the moderators on this matter..... "Like I said in the previous thread, every week, we post a link to the backroom where we post links to the images that we, as staff, have chosen as the best that we could see while monitoring the galleries." That's not the only time a statement like this has been made, if I would search a bit more I could come up with more, but this one does just well. This one came from one of the Hot20 threads.

you should take a look at my gallery then, because its not looked at much.

Its not really a poser backroom if the button labeled "TOP IMAGES" leads you to images with large (or even small) amounts of postwork.

theres plenty of postwork which is fine, things like blurring, layering of renders, layer effect (screen/overlay etc) removing render glitches etc.

but I truly think that at least in the POSER backroom, any images that have things drawn on them through an external program after the render from poser is complete should not be there, they dont show what poser can do, they do show the artists talent at postwork.

I mean, if you want to stick a photo of whatever in your image, how about instead of pasting it on after you've rendered, you load it up as a texture on a square in poser. the effect is the same, but at least its done in poser.

but anyway, my point is, the mods should keep any picks to images that are done in poser (with the most minimulistic postwork)

I've only ever drawn something on my poser images 3 times, alot of my renders use layered effects. some of them I would not like to see in the staff picks because I feel they have too much postwork to be put on display as POSER images.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 07:28

You know, not to sound all crabby, but, well you don't have to click on the links to see the images that we, as staff, thought were nice in one way or another. Poser was originally an application for posing characters to paint elsewhere, and not a high-quality rendering app. Everywhere you see any sort of CGI, there's pre-work, there's post work..it's a lot of work! aeilkma - my statement which you've quoted from another thread means exactly what was stated. We pick the images that we think are the best of what we see in the gallery. Are all of them pure Poser? Not a one. Textures are created in a different application. Models are created in a different application, and, sometimes, morphs are created in a different application. There is no such thing as a pure Poser render. My 2c and shutting up now. MorriganShadow Poser Moderator

MorriganShadow, don't say they're best, according to karen1573 you mods don't few those as best, but as favourite and that's a big difference. Because of you say best, then my caseis valid. If you say favourite then my case isn't valid at all. But according to the way it is presented by buttons and others thing it suggest the best. Anyway it's not a big deal, I was just wondering.

I mean, if you want to stick a photo of whatever in your image, how about instead of pasting it on after you've rendered, you load it up as a texture on a square in poser. the effect is the same, but at least its done in poser. If the effect is the same, can you tell the difference if it's been done in poser or not? ;) If we remove all the images that have postwork on them, the staff won't have a lot to choose from, they'll have to spend hours digging in the gallery to find the few that they feel certain don't have postwork on them and are good enough to pick. ;) As it is, I find they've chosen a nice assortment, some with no postwork, some with a little and one that seems to have lots. It will never cease to amaze me how these things are taken so seriously, I wonder why that is? It's not like there's something to win at the end of it... Well except maybe for a little stroke on the ego of the artists whose pics have been chosen and that doesn't hurt anyone does it? Karen, maybe you should change that button "top imgs" and have one that says "Staff picks" instead, it seems to be important... ;)

aeilkma - What I think is the best of something and what you think is the best of something is COMPLETELY different. That is why there is a variety of everything! For example....I hate Earl Grey Tea. My husband loves the stuff, I won't touch it, preferring an Orange Pekoe. I think OP is the best. He thinks EG is the best. They BOTH are from a certain viewpoint, but, each of us has our own viewpoint. The hot 20 is the culmination of what members have voted on in the gallery. The Staff Picks is what we as staff have chosen to be the best of what we saw in the galleries during the past week/two weeks. The "Top Imgs" button is there because, frankly, Staff Picks doesn't fit on that button. Like I said, you don't have to like what we've chosen at all. We're not forcing you to like any of the images that we found to be nice. We are just showing those images that we liked, and, sometimes, wouldn't even be noticed in the galleries. This is something we do because we want to, not because it's demanded, lol. Anyway, that's all I have to say about it. This isn't some wide conspiracy to make your day bad, aeilkema. These are simply the images that we found to be the best in our opinions.

I'm not against postwork at all, but some images are more postwork then poser. Besides imo opinion postwork clearly shows, I don't agree with templargfx on this. If an images show one figure that was rendered in Poser, but all the rest like light effects, background, textures, hair and other effects were added in ps or psp for example. That's imo not a poser image, but a ps or psp image. Those we do see a lot and that's what I mean with postworked. Not just a little touch-up of one or two effects added. There's also quite a number of images in the poser galleries and even hot20 that aren't even rendered in poser, but do have poser people or props in them. I don't call them poser images either. They're whatever they've been made in images.

Lets not argue semantics. The dictionary definition of "render", in this case, would be "Computer Generated Image".

Now, let's not argue about this, PLEASE! So, some of you disagree with our picks. I don't expect anyone to like any or all of the images we pick. edited for clarification

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 09:05

Templargfx wrote:
"Think a little before making such a statement"

I don't want to play the thread police, but was that blatant personal insult really necessary? It's statements like these that make threads turn into flame wars.

If you disagree with someone, state your point and leave it at that. Insults only inspire counter-insults.

Keep the thread civil, please.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 09:06

"but I truly think that at least in the POSER backroom, any images that have things drawn on them through an external program after the render from poser is complete should not be there, they dont show what poser can do, they do show the artists talent at postwork"

Uhm... even if there's absolutely NO postwork done in an image, it's still not a true example of what Poser is capable of, unless the artist incorporates all of Poser's features in one render (not likely). Even then, it's still a show of the artist's TALENT at using Poser, because the software doesn't do the ART for you.

The arguments against any kind of postwork in the Poser gallery or backroom are completely sophomoric... Galleries are not a good litmus test to see what Poser can do, because instead you're always going to see what the artist can do with Poser. Poser, like ANY application, is only as capable as the artist, never the other way around.

There's plenty of tutorials and other such training material about Poser around the web... why not just use the plethora of technical essays written by Geep and others to judge what "Poser can do?" Message edited on: 09/19/2005 09:19

what is the poser backroom for exactly? I was under the impression that it is a place for getting and seeing all things poser.

now, I never said I dont like the images chosen for staff picks, I said that I dont think images with postwork drawn on them should be there.

I think that painting on clothes, or hair (not touch ups, I mean the entire thing) or tubing flowers, or scenery onto an image and similar type postwork turns the image into a mixed medium (or more correctly a mixed application render) and therefore shouldnt be showcased in the poser backroom.

what I really want to know is why doesnt rendorisity finally do what so many poeple want, and create a seperate postwork area, or genre or tickbox when uploading (like nudity for example, this I think is the best idea). Then all those honest artists will tick or choose or whatever the postwork thing, so that all us crazy idiots who think postworking hair or clothes or whatever makes an image not poser can choose to not see these images if we so desire oh, and to maxxmodels above, your very correct, but atleast you know that what you are seeing is what the program poser did, and not what an artist can do with a tablet and Photoshop. look, Im not saying ban all postwork or anything stupid like that, im saying that there should be a distinction between images without postwork and images with.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 09:32

"I think that painting on clothes, or hair (not touch ups, I mean the entire thing) or tubing flowers, or scenery onto an image and similar type postwork turns the image into a mixed medium"

So far, I agree with you.

But...

"Its not really a poser backroom if the button labeled "TOP IMAGES" leads you to images with large (or even small) amounts of postwork."

It's your wording here that troubles me. In Poser 6, there is a new feature render option called "shadows only". This option is a POSER FEATURE. It allows artists to render only the shadows of an image for compositing in post. THIS is something I want to see done more often, it's something I believe is CRUCIAL to knowing the "ins and outs" of Poser for production purposes, and I believe anyone who doesn't know how to use it is missing out on a very very important part of Poser's capabilities.

Now... in this world of "no postwork" some are eager to bring about, you might as well do away with that "shadows only" feature entirely, because according to some of the "purists" around here (not you specifically), the process of compositing a shadow pass in post, is not a so-called "pure Poser render", and shouldn't be there in the Poser portion of the gallery, or perhaps the backroom? This is what could be interpreted from such wording. So as you can see, it's not so easy to say "no postwork allowed", or "poser images only" or whatever, when there's varying degrees of such a thing, and some of it is actually incorporated directly into the Poser application. Yes, you must use a second application to composite afterwards, but this is all part of the 3D process.

Again... if finding out what Poser is capable of is important to someone, then I would suggest reading or posting to the Poser Technical Forum, or perhaps browsing through a few technical manuals, etc. It's a far more efficient way to learn than studying the images others are producing with the application. No one is going to paint like Da Vinci after viewing the portrait of the Mona Lisa. ;-) Message edited on: 09/19/2005 10:04

Here's what ya'll have been waiting for...my 2 cents worth. A Poser render is just that, a render done in Poser. Not in Bryce, not in Vue, but in Poser. If that Poser render is then taken into a paint program and postworked it is STILL a Poser render. So drop the knit pickin. Btw, the mod choices are very nice this week! :-)

Poser also allows you to render AO seperately (although the coding used is rather, umm, stupid. edit the script to see what I mean) and also each light, and ambience. it is a hard thing to clasify with one word what i mean. postwork doesnt really define it well enough. I guess its more doing things that poser CANNOT do is fine, but doing things that poser CAN do isnt fine. if that makes sense. Poser can do hair, poser can do clothes, etc etc etc. poser cant to screen or multiply full image effects. poser cant do smudge and noise effects (actually, a plane infront of the camera with the noise node, and transparency would do that) really, I just want a way to view the gallery without all those "hair done in PS" images. thats all I want deep down LOL

How do the mods know which renders are done using only poser?

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 10:42

I usually like the staff picks better than the Hot20 - more variety. But that's just a matter of my personal taste, not something to argue about. aeilkema and templargfx make a very interesting point though. When I view the galleries, I do so for several reasons. One reason is enjoying beautiful artwork - and whatever application(s) the artist used is irrelevant in that regard. But another reason is learning how to do things. If I see wonderfully realistic hair, I want to know HOW the artist did it, so that I can learn how to do better hair. And since I totally suck at 2D, I want to know if that hair was done in Poser, using rendering tricks that I could learn, or in Photoshop - that I couldn't learn. THIS is why I would love a way to view the gallery without "hair/cloth done in PS".

shrug How does anyone tell? Most often, you can tell when someone's done postwork. But, you can't always tell what image was done without postwork or only in Poser. ;) *edited this time because I don't know how to spell :P

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 10:53

When there are lots of awesome hair models in a large number of styles to choose from that look as good as when they're painted on, maybe you'll have what you want deep down... ;)

"But another reason is learning how to do things. If I see wonderfully realistic hair, I want to know HOW the artist did it, so that I can learn how to do better hair. And since I totally suck at 2D, I want to know if that hair was done in Poser, using rendering tricks that I could learn, or in Photoshop - that I couldn't learn." Painted hair, 3D strand-based hair, and model/transmapped hair all seem fairly identifiable to anyone familiar with 3D. Sometimes model hair is smeared to take out the transmap artifacts or hard edges in post, but that's a very simple process, and anyone can "learn" how to do this if they really wanted to. I think having the option to view postworked images or not is a decent one in theory, but in practice it's not so simple. If I composited shadows, as in my previous example, using the P6 shadows-only render option, would I be obligated to post my resulting image with a "postwork" tag, putting it in the same lot as all the "paint over" works? Chances are, you'd miss out on a great many outstanding images that you could 'learn' from by filtering out postwork in this way.

Chances are, you'd miss out on a great many outstanding images that you could 'learn' from by filtering out postwork in this way. ...and IMO, it would be very boring especially if you're using Poser4 or PP. I don't know about Poser 5 or 6. I have seen some exceptionally beautiful images rendered in Poser6 with supposedly no postwork.

Good point, maxxxmodelz. Compositing and painting can both be classified as "postwork". My gut tells me that compositing several renders still falls under using P6 features, while painting over a render does not. Fixing up glitches of the render engine, adjusting color balance, cropping and resizing, this is all "postwork", but without completely altering the image. Sometimes, when needed, I "postwork" my renders this way. Adding clothes, hair and/or backgound by painting them over the render fundamentally changes the image, and those are techniques I am not proficient at (and have no interest in). So there is a fundamental difference IMO.

@rockets: even P4/PP can do great renders. Check the galleries by odditorium and Giana, for instance. And "supposedly" no postwork on P5 and P6 renders? I know from experience that Firefly can do some exceptional things. Check the work by Mec4D, maxxxmodelz and dricci.

I know P4 and PP do great renders. I still use P4, but the point is that without postwork those renders look yucky. Giana is a friend of mine and does gorgeous work, but she also does postwork in one form or another.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1029602

You are right, that is definately NOT yucky. I've already stated that Giana is a friend and does wonderfully beautiful images. I'm just saying that most P4 images would be rather dull with no postwork. The keyword is MOST.

So in the end it just comes down to skill and effort. A skilled Poser user who knows how to use lighting and textures can get a wonderful image straight out of the render engine. Good paintwork also requires skill. I've seen many, many images in the galleries with painted hair and clothes that do not match the lighting in the render, or are far more blurry than the rendered parts. Does it mean that Photoshop/Paint Shop Pro/whatever doesn't have the capabilities to create great images? Not at all. It just depends on skill and the amount of effort the artist pours into his/her work. And exactly the same goes for Poser. That said, the capabilities of the P5 and especially P6 render engine far exceed those of P4/PP. So it should not be surprising that a skilled P5/P6 user can get a quality out of Poser that was previously only possible for a very skilled Photoshop/PSP artist.

Okay svdl, thanks for all your insight. Now I have a perfect understanding of your opinion and appreciate it very much. :-)

Ben, I'm very sorry that you misinterpreted MorriganShadow's comment. Anyway I've decided to take Lucie's advice and change the buttons in the backroom (and while I was at it I removed the links to content which isn't being actively updated.) I hope this avoids you being unfortunately disappointed with other peoples' subjective and personal choices in the future. Cheers! Karen :-)

Karen, you made my day! Sorry for my mishappenings and misinterpretation. There seems to be one problem with the new buttons though, they're all on top of each other!

Hi there and welcome to Renderosity! As you have only been with us for 6 weeks, you may not be aware that we don't ask members to "play police" in threads. That's what we have staff for! Accusing other members of violating TOS and telling them to "act nice" usually just riles people up, you see. No, if you spot what you think is a violation, please IM a member of staff, and we will handle it. We have special protective clothing issued for these situations ;-) Enjoy your stay at Renderosity! Kind regards, Karen :-) on behalf of the Poser team

Ooh dear, I'm not seeing that in my browser. Let me investigate and I'll see what I can sort! Edit: Does it look okay now? Some form of cross-browser weirdness, what can I say!

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 16:31