What is too much to pay for a 3d model? One character model is 33 bucks? Others I've seen are up to 60 something bucks! And does a model not having an auto-installer influence your purchases?

Pricing to me depends on several factors. The complexity of the model, obviously and artist should get paid for the time and effort he/she puts into his/her product. It's usefulness, is it a one render thing, or will it be useful in the long term. From what I can see Poser figures and models are somewhat cheaper than those sold in the rest of the 3D industry (not that this is a bad thing) but this is more because it's a hoby market as opposed to a professional market. mike

For me, how much it's worth paying for a model depends on the models itself and a lot of factors: How much do I need it, could I make one myself, quality of modeling and/or texturing, and in the case of Poser models, is it posable, what kinds of morphs does it have, etc... There are some models for $50 or $60 that IMO are worth it, but there are also models for under $10 that are IMO, overpriced.

Are you buying or selling? The answer may depend on your perspective. If you are buying then only you can make the call. If you are selling then a good guide is other similar items in the market place. Generally folks will be prepared to pay for quality and originality. Customer service and reputation is also very important.

In response to PhilC - I'm a consumer.

I pay for quality and for something I want and can use.

I have noticed at least one merchant who has raised all their prices - for an item I paid back in 2003, this item is now over twice as much - and all their items have been raised - some several times.

As a customer, you need to compare because some merchants give you a bargain, some offer fair pricing and some, because they can, keep upping their prices.

I will stop buying from this particular merchant because I feel something they created in 2003, has not increased in value to the degree of more than twice what it was.

:)

outrageously LOW. Poser is the 3d market that sells top quality human figures for insainly low prices compaired to other 3d softwares and fields. Look at Zygote, $14,000 USD for their male and female each, un-rigged. Take a trip over to www.turbosquid.com and check out the prices there, just be thankful that you fell into such a cheap aspect of 3d.

I hate auto-installers, but if I like the model, I'll buy it anyway.

The last thing I want to do after spending ... lets say ... 30 bucks on something is have to place it in the poser files myself. (plus no matter how many read-me's or how - to's I have on doing it ... they never seem to work like they should) Ugh.

If it has an installer, I install to a temporary folder anyway. I like to organize everything myself before placing it one of my runtimes. Prices for Poser models are very, very low. The effect of which is that I and many others can actually afford them. When I shop, I consider if I can use, if I can afford to buy it, and if it's worth the money to me personally.

Just unzip it to your Poser folder with "use folder names" checked, and everything should fall into the right place.

I hate installers, because you can't tell what's in them until you install the darn things. And you can't extract just the files you want; you have to install everything, including stuff you may not need (like BUM files if you're not a P4 user). Plus there's a risk of viruses, etc.

I know, a lot of people install it to a dummy runtime so they can rename and rearrange, then move it all over to the real runtime. But I hate doing that, because XP doesn't let you delete all those folders the installer creates until you re-boot. What a pain.

It really does "depend" on a case-by-case basis. I always try to take into consideration the amount of time that the modeller (or creator of whatever content/app/plugin) seems to have put into the product. I'm willing to pay higher prices for, say, something wonderful that an individual comes up with than one of the content companies that have more resources and bigger customer bases. Installers or archive files are never an issue as regards purchase decision. Like many Poser users I "take control" and initially unzip or install to a temporary folder, then organize content within Poser as I want it to be organized for efficiency. Thus it doesn't really matter how the merchant packaged the content.

I think most content for Poser is an incredible bargain. I'm often amazed at the quality and useability of stuff you can buy for pocket change here and at other sites. I've tried actual modeling just a bit, just enough to know that it can be very difficult to create something. I'm amazed how inexpensive some of the most detailed models are, whether humans, creatures, props, ships, furniture, et al. I can only imagine how long it to took to make this stuff.

It depends on the model of course but $30+- for a decent model is not unreasonable in my mind. Modeling is not an easily aquired skill, modelers can work 100s of hours building and designing figures. I've spent many dollars on useful models. If you check the web 3d models are run into 4 figures for detailed and explicit figures. I find poser model prices to be quite reasonable. My 2 cents. Daniel

IMO it's always wise to at least look at a zip file before dumping it into your runtime. Not all zips are set up in proper poser stucture and may not install where you think they should show up. The same goes for installer, install to a dummy and look at the stucture. I do it that way primarily because I use Pboost and need to know what to set up to accept the files. Plus it's a whole lot easier finding them when I have to correct errors. Bottom line, do what's comfortable for you.

An important factor in pricing: Pricing depends on how much the consumer is willing to pay. If no one pays the price comes down.

I don't mind paying higher prices for excellent models. But a higher price will always cause me to think twice before I'll hit the "purchase" button. It'll need to be something that I really want........

Higher-priced items often end up spending long periods of time sittin' on my wishlist. In fact, oftentimes such models never make the jump over into my cart.

For example: why should I dump $30 on a lone character package -- when there are literally 100's of superb character packages available for under $10? I can get three great characters for the price of one other.......

For this reason, the $30 character package has to be something really special before I'll consider it. If EVERY character package cost $30, then it would be a different story. But under current market conditions, I don't have to pay more -- so I'm not going to.

Look at Zygote, $14,000 USD for their male and female each, un-rigged.
Take a trip over to www.turbosquid.com and check out the prices there, just be thankful that you fell into such a cheap aspect of 3d.

If Poser items started selling at Max prices, then I'd bail out of this hobby. Even if you can afford it -- this pastime isn't worth that kind of money to a Poser idler like me.

In fact, Turbosquid-type pricing would probably kill about 90% of the Poser market.

It's always more to a merchant's advantage to sell 300 units at $15.00 apiece than it is to sell 5 units at $75.00 each. No matter how valuable the merchant thinks that their products are.

As for installers -- I don't like auto-installers. They annoy me. I'd rather customize my own library locations for purchased items, thank you. Not have them all pre-assigned into confusing "merchant vanity" directories -- with directory names that don't provide a clue as to what types of items are actually contained in the directory.

Does a directory labelled !!!!!!!WonderWhoop contain a V3 character, an automobile, or a non-posable model of a giraffe?

I'd rather assign the directory names for myself.....in a way that makes sense to ME. Not in a way that flatters the merchant(s).

Message edited on: 12/14/2005 13:06

"It's always more to a merchant's advantage to sell 300 units at $15.00 apiece than it is to sell 5 units at $75.00 each." That logic makes sense for items that the merchant is sure the masses will want (ie., a sexy female model), but for something more niche (like, say, an accurate detailed model of the human brain, for instance), then upping the price and banking on those who really want something like that may be a good idea. You may never sell 300 units of the product, even at $15 a pop, whereby someone who really needs such a model is willing to pay top dollar.

shrug

Wal Mart sells a lot more stuff than Tiffany's does -- and makes a WHOLE lot more money in the process.

Low price, high volume. That's the key to large sales. And the Poser market illustrates this point.

But you are essentially correct. The more specialized that an item is, then the $$$$$$$-ier that it's likely to be. But even then: the hypothetical brain model would be likely to sell more units at cheaper prices. Figuring out what the optimum price vs. value break point is......is the key.

One thing for sure: once items get too expensive, then most people tend to stop buying them.

Well, I think it comes down to value vs. workload if you're a merchant who wants to make a living over the long haul. For example: If someone meticulously models a medically-accurate, perfect replica of the human brain (not something the masses would be interested in), and it takes them 400 man hours of modeling time, then they sell 100 units @ $30 per unit to the hobbyist market, that comes to $3000, or around $7.50/hour (if my math is correct). Meanwhile, if that same person takes the model to the high-end medical community, and sells 1 unit @ $10,000, then they made around $25/hr. A smart merchant would cater to the high-end niche market first in such a case, then if they make the sale, turn around and market the same item to the hobbyist market for much less. Can't really do it the other way around, or you'd stand to lose the high-end sale ($10,000) if it's advertised around for $30. Sometimes the high-end market would want exclusive rights, which means even more money.

Rolls Royce will never be as large of a company as Toyota is. Sure, Rolls has a more exclusive cliente. But Toyota is the richer of the two -- by far.

Yes, you're correct, XENOPHONZ. However, as an alternate example, eFrontier (or at least the former CuriousLabs) certainly didn't make the same profit margine that Autodesk made last year. 3D products/content is definitely a much more focused niche market than the products Wal-Mart or Toyota is dealing with. When Autodesk acquired Alias this year, they exposed their annual earnings, and it was in the Billions. You wouldn't think a company that sells such pricey applications would make that much profit, but they do. They also boasted around 6 million users with some of their applications, which far exceeds most lesser-priced software. Seems contradictory to the theory of 'less is more' when it comes to 3D. ;-)

For a figure with features that work, like opening doors and 2-3 maps, I don't mind paying $15-20. Poses - based on quality $7. If thats a static prop that falls apart the moment you move one part $5. If it's a strikingly original static prop thats really original - $7.50 - $10 tops. Software? depends on what it does, but most is fairly priced here. But I wouldn't pay more than $5 for a repaint of a resource kit. No matter how many extra poses it has.

"But I wouldn't pay more than $5 for a repaint of a resource kit. No matter how many extra poses it has." That's one of many reasons why I would never use a resource kit for my textures. Bought photos, yes. Premade textures, no.

@ maxxxmodelz --

Yes, that's true. 3D is -- in and of itself -- a niche market. But that doesn't change the fact that low prices can sell more than steep ones can. Even within the confines of the niche.

The reason why Autodesk is as big as it is has to do with the fact that their flagship product - AutoCAD - has pretty much become the world standard for engineering & architectural applications. The process control systems that I work on, and the commercial/government building construction projects that I work on: all of them make extensive use of AutoCAD.

Autodesk is the Microsoft of the CAD industry.

However -- if you strip out AutoCAD's use in non-technical applications such as with 3D hobbyists -- I'd strongly suspect that e-frontier actually dominates that niche market over AutoCAD -- simply because the average 3D hobbyist isn't going to shell out $3500+ for any of the various 3D-capable AutoCAD packages. Not to mention the fact that they'd have to take the rather steep learning curve which goes along with 3D AutoCAD.

A few years ago, I heard about a survey which claimed that Poser was the most widely pirated software in the world. If that's true -- then who knows? Perhaps e-frontier's "real" market share is even greater.

;)

I think one of the things I look for is flexibility. Which is partly why I bought Wardrobe Wizard -- it lets me get more use out of expensive items. Flexibility and a touch of imagination. A sci-fi Vicky-in-Space doesn't need to wear something styled like a swimsuit. And I'm not keen on outfits which have several distinct meshes, all UV-mapped onto a single texture. It's wasteful if you want to mix-and-match. Anyway, as an enthusiastic amateur, I'd not want to pay a lot for something I might only have one use for. But I can see how somebody selling their art would be willing to pay money to save their time.

I'm not sure it makes sense to compare prices for something aimed at the average hobbyist with products aimed at professional outfits with big client budgets to blow. Somewhere like here, pricing is certainly an issue - if something is less than $10 and I like the look of it, I'll buy it quickly. If it's $30, it will stay on my wishlist for a long time, possibly forever. I'm sure many others act the same. Some prices I see are completely absurd for this site; a while ago there was one person trying to sell his renders for $75 a go; another had swords at $150 each (yeah right, try the freestuff page); and another guy is still trying to get people to fork out $40 for what is essentially the "blend" mode in the P5/6 material editor.

I'd guess if you were to commission something like the Zygote figures from Zygote they would cost you something like $50 hour for modeling x 12 weeks of work x 40 hours/week, or $24,000. For that money you would own the figures, Zygote would retain no rights, they would be yours to seell or modify or do whatever you want. I'm under the impression that the Zygote figures aren't as nicely modeled as Vickie 3, but pretty complete. So, on that basis charging $14,000 for the use of the existing figures seems a little over the top, maybe it is just a starting place for bidding on them, or something. However, I'd say the $24,000 figure is about ballpark, an less experenced modeler might sell his time cheaper (a lot cheaper, mayber), but they would also take longer. I'd also say you would have to at least double that for number if you included a minimal morph package and textures, Poser rigged. So, if you sold 1000 copies of this about $50 (total, you could do a $25 figure with $15 morphs and $10 textures or whatever) would be about the right price. Only I don't know if anybody other than DAZ can sell 1000 copies of a figure for $50...

"Only I don't know if anybody other than DAZ can sell 1000 copies of a figure for $50... " Sanctum Art might. His latest figure sells for $70. Beatuifull work, but way outside my personal price range. Does anyone here think thats a fair price, too high or a indictator of things to come ?

How about Apollo? Any chance he sold 1000 copies?

SanctumArt's latest product is not a figure. It's two sets of sci-fi armor for M3 and V3. Considering that it's two outfits, modelled inside as well as out, with zillions of parts, the price is par for the course. If he sold them separately for $35 each, no one would bat an eyelash. It's the fact that they're bundled that makes the price so high. Frankly, I think he'd make a lot more money if he sold them separately and made them more affordable.

I don't think it's an indicator of things to come. If anything, the price of Poser products is dropping.

How about Apollo? Any chance he sold 1000 copies? I doubt it, but I'd hope he will sell that many copies eventually, though. Several of my figures are well past 1000 sales, but they are all females (which I think sell better, everything else being equal), and they are also cheaper, not being original mesh like Apollo is.

I personally think that 'character models' that are based off an existing figure - V3, M3, S3, Aiko, David, etc. are overpriced if they are over $0. The textures that come with them have value, but anyone can 'turn the dials' on something like V3, and in fact I make all my own 'characters', though as I said, the texture maps have value. Of course, an original model, such as v3 herself, has legitimate value. And actual new morphs for a model have value as well. Poses are similar - anyone can pose a figure like so, but I'm not fully convinced either way on them. Posing does seem to be slightly more difficult that shaping with existing dials. The fact that 98% of the work in the galleries is using a pose somebody else made, with a 'character' somebody else made - shows that obviously not everyone -can- pose figures, nor can everyone apparently 'turn the dials'. So maybe there is value in them... Original meshes, morphs, and so on I would say have value, but I am not sure they have the value they sell for here. Of course, the only way to test that would be to lower the price for a while and see if sales go up as a result, and then raise it back and see if that reduces sales. You would have to do this on a large scale with both new and old models to correct for error in individual model quality and the issue of 'new sells better'. The point at which P*S is highest is where the best value lies, wherein P = price and S = number of items sold. If you raise P, S goes down, and vice versa... but anyone who's taken a middle school economics or budgeting class knows this. I suspect that for many models, P is too high. For some though, P might be lower than the artist could get away with...

In response to Mrspary ... $70 is outrageous, unless it auto-installs, is easily found and is flawless each and every time you use it.

In my amaturist opinion, I've become more particular about what I will purchase. To me a model with morphs and at least one base(Not Hi Res)texture would be worth 40-50 dollars. I mean if you look at most images of projects people have done you always see them textured. This to me means that they have a completed project with morphs and textures, and are pleased with the outcome. However when it comes to sell, they are unwilling to include the textures(which I understand if they were made by someone else)and sometimes even morphs (like at other sites which will remain nameless)which in my opinion is like calling a sphere primitive a new improved childs play ball and showing it with a cool looking texture, then selling it for 30 dollars and stating that the textures aren't included. These type of models are no longer on my ajenda for purchasing. I would rather have it come with everything needed or not at all. Again just my amaturish oppinion.

Message edited on: 12/14/2005 23:05

"Sanctum Art might. His latest figure sells for $70.
Beatuifull work, but way outside my personal price range.

"Does anyone here think thats a fair price, too high or a indictator of things to come ?""

I'd say for the quality your getting it's still underpriced,
Poser content has always been massively underpriced..we make up for it in numbers of sales

Message edited on: 12/15/2005 02:04

I think you might have confused "underpriced" with "undervalued", but the concepts overlap. For me, there's not enough value in that Sanctum Art product, so it's overpriced. The value, I think, is what I can set; it's a judgement I make. Price is set by the seller, and if a lower price means more sales, and more total income, you can't call it underpriced. But we can still be undervaluing what you're selling.

"But we can still be undervaluing what you're selling."
Totally agree, I think stonemason sums it up nicely.
"Poser content has always been massively underpriced".

As a home user, like most folks here. I simply can't afford to pay the prices asked at turbosquid. Plus to be honest, stuff here is usually much better quality.

As a merchant, sometimes I'd like to charge more, sure most merchants would! Thats the whole point of being one. But if I whack my prices up I rule myself out of the poser market and don't give my customers a good affordable choice

So overall I think the present 'micropayment' system works well enough. The balance seems right.

Plus a lot of the time what money you do make is 'virtual' and spent on other merchants goodies!

Message edited on: 12/15/2005 04:10

Quote - Price is set by the seller, and if a lower price means more sales, and more total income, you can't call it underpriced.

That's what I believe too. While I am not a merchant, I do have experience in business, having run a business from my home for several years. My business involved a great deal of my time "manufacturing", as it was homemade bath and skincare products plus fragrances. I spent time shopping for supplies, trying out different formulas, packaging and marketing etc. It was very time intensive. I decided when I started that I could sell for more and not sell much, or I could sell for less and sell more and ultimately make more money. I did price checks at stores that had similar items to what I was making and selling, and then I would sell for less than what the cheapest place was selling for. It worked out very well. People liked my products and they liked my pricing.

" or I could sell for less and sell more and ultimately make more money. " I've actually found the oposite to be true..my most expensive items get the most sales. :-)

It can be inappropriate to price things according to time taken. If you set yourself a charge at dollars per hour you may be disappointed. You could say, "my time is $50 an hour, I spent 100 hours on this project so it's worth $5000. I expect 50 sales so the price is $100". But the buyer doesn't look at it that way. The buyer doesn't care how long you spent, but only how suitable the product is for (a) use, and (b) impact on purse. I might look at that product and conclude I have better things to spend $100 on. The fact is, that it's a buyer's market, and the expectation of the buyer sets the price. It's no use fighting against that.

Right .. But now the buyer is settting the price at "Anything more than $5, on sale, is too much" and that isn't really realistic .. It is just somethign that has gotten progressively worse over the years. It just isn't worth anyones time so you are driving merchants away with this attitude.

I look at it this way. Number 1 Zygote caters to corporations, Daz caters to lower end businesses and hobbyists. Wrote a program a while back and was going to sell it fairly cheap. My husband and everyone who saw it thought I should up the price. Now. Do I want to sell one or two at the higher price, or sell 10, 20 or maybe a 100 at the lower price? These aren't cookies...you don't have to make a new one every time you sell one. Once it's made it can bring in revenue for years. So. Although you may have a sterling reputation, you will probably only sell to folks who have enough sterling in your pocket to buy it and you may get the reputation of being greedy. I rarely buy models that are higher priced, and I'm actually on a downward spending trend for that reason. Finding other things to spend my money on these days. Marque

Oh last word, price it the way you want and if folks want it bad enough or need it they will buy it. Simple as that. Same in the stores in brick and morter, if I think it's too high I move one. Don't go to the manager and complain about the price because it wouldn't do me any good. So I don't let it bother me. 8^) Same here, you want to sell it to a lot of folks you will figure out the magic price that makes them flock in. Marque

"... now the buyer is settting the price at "Anything more than $5, on sale, is too much" and that isn't really realistic ... " I think you are exaggerating. I'm not a big spender, but I will pay $30+ if I want something enough. It just won't be an impulse purchase. And will have to be something that is worth $30 to me.

I am partly exaggerating but I have also seen a number of discount shoppers that do complain about that. I think one instance was in reference for waiting for a voucher and not wanting to spend more than that after the sale and voucher but another was just about things being too pricey and that they should have to spend more than 5 dollars for anything. It was in limited scope but it seems to be slowly growing.

I'll only throw in my 2 cents, not due to pricing, but due to the question I'm sure most of us say "I just cannot make the purchased characters render like they did in the marketplace images that made me buy this character" They say they don't post-work, but you think they might give us a clue on how to render their own characters the way they did it to sell them to us!

Merchants are always going to be inclined to value their hard work highly. Most customers are always going to be looking for deals. I know that I do.

In a word: start charging more, and you're headed for my wishlist.

As for "driving merchants away" -- I haven't seen any evidence of that happening. In addition to which: for every merchant that drops out of the game, 15 more are waiting in the wings to take their places. So I'm not going to lose any sleep on that score.

To repeat myself: I am willing to pay higher prices on occasion. But only for items that I particularly want. And a high price will cause me to ponder over whether or not I actually need that item after all.........

Speaking in Poser terms, I'd call $30 a high price. $25 is pushing it.

E.G. -- "Hmmmmmm, let's see now.......I can buy this dress plus two other outfits for V3 at $7 to $10 each -- or I can get that cool-looking jacket for M3 at $24..........OK......the jacket goes onto the wishlist for now. Maybe I'll take a second look at it in another month or two. Maybe."

And so it goes..........

People who are waiting for vouchers and don't want to pay more than X dollars are not necessarily being stingy. They may not be able to afford more. And I think it is only going to get worse this winter. Energy costs are killing people on tight budgets. Gasoline has eased a bit, but heating oil is pretty high, and natural gas just hit a new record this week. (Again.) The high natural gas costs have also increased electricity prices for many. (My utility raised prices 30%-40% this fall.)

It's not just Poser stuff. Even brick and mortar stores are wondering where all the shoppers are. As one analyst put it, "when you can find a parking space in the first two rows of the mall parking lot at this time of year, retailers are in trouble."

I know of a couple of merchants that have gone away and it is a shame, because they did good work. I understand about wanting deasl and wanting things low priced. I am a shopper too, but there is a point where it gets frustrating when you see all of these people bitching about something costing money. And I understand about people not being able to buy stuff because they have a gas bill to pay. But, then again, if they can't afford it then they shouldn't buy it. I agree that some merchants price too high. I just get really tired of the blame being put on merchants shoulders. I always try to price things fairly low and give the most for the dollar. I just get tired of seeing people screaming for more more more and wanting to spend less less less. If you were buying a barbie doll you wouldn't go to the manager and haggle and complain until they lowered the price. It is the same kind of thing.

If you were buying a barbie doll you wouldn't go to the manager and haggle and complain until they lowered the price. It is the same kind of thing.

I assume you've never worked retail. There are people do that. Heck, CNN just did a story about prescription drug prices, and recommended that you try to bargain with the pharmicist to get a lower price!

Of course merchants have a right to price their stuff any way they want. Indeed, some may prefer to be elite merchants - the haute couture of Poser. But customers have a right to express opinions about the prices as well. And what you see as griping, others might see as valuable market research.

Quote - I'm sure most of us say "I just cannot make the purchased characters render like they did in the marketplace images that made me buy this character" They say they don't post-work, but you think they might give us a clue on how to render their own characters the way they did it to sell them to us!

I know that Anton has provided excellent support in that area.