What catches your eye more when you are viewing anothers work, technical skill or imagination? For me it completely imagination, I can appreciate technical skill, but technical skill is only technical skill, it something learned. I have a much greater appreciation for creativity, the ability to push the imagination beyond its limit is far more exciting than technical skill, at least in my opinion.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/photos/GAL_200510/GalleryImage1072376.jpg

Both technical and creativity equally. I love 3D art because of its technical challenge, but also because of the beautiful things it can create.

Yeah, but imagination without technical skills is pretty much useless. You know the one, "10% talent and 90% work." When you use just your imagination, you can put a stick into an image and call it a cathedral. BTW, marc, for that Oliver Twist, I'd give 120 for imagination and about 60-70 for technical skill. Composition is not good enough, and the lighting, although very good, could be a bit better.

I look, I like, I comment..;) I value detail, and sharpness of line, yada yada..;)

@Erlik You give me more than i thought it worth!!.Thanks ;) I was trying to show zappazorn on how certain images are thought about when viewing. I didnt think my image was worth all the remarks it got when other images, which had a lot of work done in them, didnt do so well in the comments/views. I think the comment, 'Art is in the eye of the beholder', is very true and it wont make a lot of difference when 50 or 10 people view it........you may just get people looking at your work at the right moment and at the right time when feelings seem to merge.......on an other day, you may not get anything at all! Marc (Not after more comments....but if you really want to! ;) LOL)

@zappazorn
I think it was Vangelis once said "If it sounds good, it IS good". Just apply that principle to what catches your eye - IE: "If it looks good, it IS good".

@marcfx
That's one sick image (bloody good though) - just wait 'til the RSPCA hear's 'bout it ;-)

Len.

ROFLMAO!! ;)

I will have to disagree with you Erik that imagination without technical skill is pretty much useless. What is technical skill anyway? I've learned something from observing a really good friend of mine. he has one of the most wildest imaginations ever, ideas that would blow your mind, but his technical ability sucks, by the standard definition of technical ability. He is almost thirty years old, but has the drawing skill of maybe a typical thirteen year old. But his imagination is so powerful that he uses the gifts he does have to produce work and what I realized is that this is his gift, he is techincally perfect in his way. His scribbly, crude style is his natural way of expressing his mind. How can there be any standard to judge anything by, everything is valid. We all have our natural way, like my friends way of expression is crude and messy, I've even noticed this crudeness in everything he does, he also makes music and it is the same way, his guitar playing skill is very crude, he can play it just enough to express whats in his mind. I noticed it even his mannerism, his way of walking, he's really heavy footed and forcful in his movements, it is just his way. It caused me to look at myself and I can see it in myself also. I have always had a nack for drawing, rythm and music, while my friend is crude and messy, may way is smooth and more flowing, that is just my nature. When I express my imagination it comes in a more smooth and flowing way. My way isnt any better than his, it is just different. We all have our way, and to me creativity is about opening your mind and going to the depths of your imagination and expressing it through your own natural way. When I can see at least some of the artist within his work that is when I can really appreciate the work.

Message edited on: 01/07/2006 12:56

leonardo da vinci, when asked "what is genius?", answered: -1% imagination and 99% hard work.- but this was more than 5 centuries ago to be genial or to be trendy? that's the question, today. my opinion is that trendy images, today, catch much more the eye than imaginative ones. one trend here is for sure science fiction (to not mention nacked vicki in front of a temple): draw a crappy starship and you'll get a lot of positive comments. draw a wonderful horse and compare the comments. trendy images don't need any imagination, and neither somuch work: just behave lemminglike

I think both are what catches my eye. But when you are talking about a site like this, where I can see the same artist post many works over time. No matter how creative and wild the idea/imagination is, if the person never works on their technical skills, I lose interest. To me, neglect of getting better technically is laziness. And tells me that the artsist doesn't really care about the viewer at all, but only for their own outlet. I also think that with time, technical skill will improve in 90% of artists just because of time spent in a given program. With those that I have witnessed here that do not improve at all, it makes me wonder exactly what the point of thier time doing this is about. If it is for self gratifacation, with no intent to improve, then I eventually just pass everything by that artist. Lastly, This is an art site. Art is for the mind, of course, but to get to the mind it comes through the eyes. And for me, I would rather gaze at a wonderfully done work of a simple idea, than an interesting creative idea that looks terrible. Just my $0.02

to piggy back on a bit of what zakalwe said. Thats the thing. Imagination- you either have it, or you dont. Its a gift more than a learned skill. But Technical skills, ability in a given art form is about hard work and practice. And can be obtained to some degree by all. Ideas come out of the air. You grab em and go with it. Thats the 1%. But to pull that idea off, so the viewer of it can appreciate it is the hard work. Again, I hate to go back to what I just wrote, but to neglect the technical side is just lazy imo.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" You hate it, sombody else loves it. Go figure.... :p ~kimpe~

90% quality of the image. 10% artistic message. By image quality, I mean its technical skill as well as the seemingly unimportant stuff. I rarely ever vote for or give an excellent rating to images with jpeg compression artificats or obvious preset textures or simple problems. By artistic message, basically as long as it's not a SOW, then it will ace this category.

i find there's nothing uglier than a masterpiece of technical skill without imagination. my personal POV (or $0.02) my field is bioarchitecture, i see this everyday: listen to your heart and tell me if you'd like to live in a modern ipertechnical building or in a small town on a greek island - don't let me be misunderstood, when i saw ridley scott's blade runner many years ago i was amazed: there is a certain charme and imaginative deep in a high-tech metropolis, but i like the soul landscapes more. to be healthy you need to feed your soul. there is also a charme in "technical" pictures, but look at the childern paintings: there are no practice and particular skills, but only feeling, emotion - and that's why i like them. this was the way that (one for all) picasso followed bad architecture and bad art make humans sick and deviant. quote: art is in the eye of the beholder but the beholder belongs to a group/culture/society/religion art is also a powerful control medium leonardo worked for the pope and the "big" lords and princes. his art counts a lot of christian sacred images, because the beholders were christians of the 15th century - he'd never "published" a picture called "omosexual love" ok, i broke the slot machine this was my $0.02 pile

I dont belive imagination is something you either have or you dont, everyone has it. Just not evryone has the ability to access it. The only way to access it is through letting go. If you learn the ability to remove yourself from all concepts, to let go of everything you know, everythin you been taught, you then remove the barriers placed in the mind that box the imagination in, and with no barriers no limits. All of our preconieved notions of how things should be, everything dumped into the mind creates a box, in that box is limited room. Let go of all preconcieved notions, all concepts and the box disappears, all that is left is infinite freedom to explore. Striving:"Lastly, This is an art site. Art is for the mind, of course, but to get to the mind it comes through the eyes. And for me, I would rather gaze at a wonderfully done work of a simple idea, than an interesting creative idea that looks terrible." But what is terrible? What is beauty? If you can transcend all concepts of what something is, all things in the world become wonderous. From that state of mind you could see the wonder in a dog turd. Imsgine that! This world is truly a wonderous thing, it goes beyond any Bryce image I have seen. I'm not talking exclusively about 3d art, im talking about all forms of art, painting, music etc. In my opinion the best art, the truest art is the art the is created from a mind of no concepts, no preconcieved notions of what anything is suppose to be or how anything is suppose to look. Just the expression of the pure mind.

We're talking about Bryce here, so technical skill does have a lot to do with it. I know what Bryce can do, so I like images that push the Bryce envelope to it's extreme. If you can render a sphere over water in a way that's never been done before, then it'll catch my eye. But also, even without pushing it that hard, it's possible to create something original and that will catch my eye too. On a more basic level, lighting lighting lighting.

Zapp: I dont belive imagination is something you either have or you dont, everyone has it. Just not evryone has the ability to access it. The only way to access it is through letting go. If you learn the ability to remove yourself from all concepts, to let go of everything you know, everythin you been taught, you then remove the barriers placed in the mind that box the imagination in, and with no barriers no limits. All of our preconieved notions of how things should be, everything dumped into the mind creates a box, in that box is limited room. Let go of all preconcieved notions, all concepts and the box disappears, all that is left is infinite freedom to explore"

OK, you can do it that way if you want.. then I would say being able to "remove yourself" then is the gift. Not all have it. Either way IMO, there are those that are gifted with great ideas, and others that are not. As far as "what is terrible". I could show examples, but then I would be pegged as hateful and cruel.

Message edited on: 01/07/2006 15:50

Yeah drawbridgrep I know what you are saying, I was actually thinking of that while I was typing my last post.
Yes 3d apps are little different because they are very technical programs. It would be very difficult to let your imagination fly when you cant create anything beyond a primitive. So at least with 3d apps you have to learn the rules before you can break them.
The reason I had started this thread was to get down to the essence of creativity. What I am trying express is that anything that we create through the conditioned part of our mind, and what I mean by that is the part of ourselves that has been conditioned by the world, when we create from that part of ourselves it is not coming from an original place. It is not really your creation, it is only an expression of every concept that has been dumped into your mind since birth.
Now if we learn how to uncondition the mind, empty out all the concepts and come from the unconditioned part of your the mind, the true essence of the mind, then our creation become an expression of our true nature, and to me there no beauty beyound that.

Message edited on: 01/07/2006 15:51

quote: Now if we learn how to uncondition the mind, empty out all the concepts and come from the unconditioned part of your the mind, the true essence of the mind, then our creation become an expression of our true nature, and to me there no beauty beyound that. yep, the fool! (of the tarots)

yep, the fool! (of the tarots) I dont get it, I dont know much anything about tarot cards.

At #0, the Fool is the card of infinite possibilities. The bag on the staff indicates that he has all he need to do or be anything he wants, he has only to stop and unpack. He is on his way to a brand new beginning. But the card carries a little bark of warning as well. Stop daydreaming and fantasising and watch your step, lest you fall and end up looking the fool. I can see the similarities there. But dont worry, I watch my step. I dont fantasize or live in daydream world. The fantasy world is the world seen through the lens of the conditioned mind. The only reality is the unconditioned. By the way, dont worry, I'm not on magic mashrooms. Back to art discussion!

Yes 3d apps are little different because they are very technical programs. It would be very difficult to let your imagination fly when you cant create anything beyond a primitive. So at least with 3d apps you have to learn the rules before you can break them.

Exactly.

Only, it's not just the matter of 3D apps. It's for all kinds of arts. If marc painted his elephant, my judgement would be about the same. There are rules about composition and so on, and you have to know what they are and why you want to break them. Just like with language - you have to know the rules and why and where to break them to achieve something.

If you can't draw a straight line, you simply cannot draw everything you want. You can call your squiggly lines your style, but...

If you cannot express yourself except in simple subject-verb-object sentences, you're not a writer. You can call those sentences literature, but...

Even in abstract art, good artists know the rules, however random the image may seem. So, 90% work. Ideas or imagination, it's cheap. Work is very dear. If I could execute everything that's buzzing around in my head, I'd be one of the greatest artists in the world. But when I try, it often doesn't look even remotely like the idea. Not enough work.

Erlik I have to say I totally agree with you. Its like if you want to cross a river you need to sail it first. I think the most important thing though is to realize that the rules dont exist to begin with. But in my experience it had taken alot of playing by the rules before realizing I had to through them out. It came to a certain point in my creativity where it was like banging my head against a wall. That was because the rules no longer provided enough room to express my self, at that point the rules went out the window. But the cool thing about understanding the rules is that once you go beyond, the rules become your playground, it becomes a kind of game. You control the rules, they dont control you.

Aesthetics, (a personal tast thing) Visual appeal, (a personal tast thing) Artistic value, (a personal tast thing) Technical exellence, Attention for detail, Amount of sloppy things in a scene.

@zappazorn- I know excactly how your friend feels..;) my mind comes up with pictures as good as Orbitals' or Rochrs', but my talent (what talent..;) just can't translate it to the screen..;)
I think it was Edison who said genius was "1% inspiration, and 99% perspiration"..;) But that was a century ago..;) (not to worry, people steel quotes off each other all the time.."If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" (Newton, and a medeival scholar, can't remember the name..;) you get the idea..;)

To me there is a thing called the artists eye the ability to break down a thing into line and shape. How much that is refined is the real techinical side. I really enjoy technical pictures a lot. I like imagination a lot in work too. But an example is two of my favorite artists are Buegel and Durer. Both had some very bizzare imaginative pictures but the ones I am drawn most to are the more normal renders. For Bruegel it is the Hunters in the Snow and for durer it is his Rinoceros and rabbit. I presonally am not a big fan of poser art because I look at it and the people have no souls to me. I can look at a simpler person model that someone built up and the soul is still there. It is a weird thing. I think it has to do with what is the person thinking when they are making the picture and the model particularly. If you don't make your own models then you have someone else deciding your reality for you. I enjoy imagination and flights of fancy like most people.

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Yes the thumb is the key to gettign viewers. I do mod on another site and the site automatically does the thumbnail for you. What you end up with is only the simplest images get viewed because noone can see all the detail of a complex image in the thumb so for a larger more complex image you need to show a detail for the thumb. I lik eot get sidtracked from tiem to time too.

I think Rayraz summed it up well for me. BTW Erlik. I can't draw a stright line, it may be generally straight but has a small level of wiggle at almost all times, but I can sketch and draw quite well. Maybe I should say, staight enough!

ok zappazorn time someone knocked you off that soap box you are on.

I am not a great artist, i don't even come close to being classed as a good artist yet some here would say different to that.
I use bryce and bryce only for the work i had posted in my gallery.
I have a great imagination and have shown it in my work yet with out the technical skills it takes to make the images show the true potential of my imagination they look like nothing more than something that i did when i first started using bryce over 12 months ago.

In other words it takes 30-45% imagination and the rest is put into the image by technical skills. If you think its all imagination and no technical skill then i'm sorry but you are far from being an artist in my eyes.

CD
(My opinion is my own)

Message edited on: 01/08/2006 00:05

Message edited on: 01/08/2006 00:22

"without technical skills is pretty much useless." Consider South Park: Technically poor - Imagination through the roof - Who killed Kenny?

South Park technically poor? No. Simplicity /= poor. the drawing and animation style of South Park matches exactly what he (they) wanted to achieve - world through the eyes of children. Incarnadine, that was an exaggeration. Licentia poetica. :-) in 3D, we also have to know about Breugel, Durer, Turner, Modigliani, Bosch, Boticelli and so on and so forth.

I rarely do original work. I steal from others. I take their ideas, their imagination, and re-create it in Bryce.

Why? Because although I have imagination I find it hard to get it on the screen.

My 'art' is my technical skill, my ability to get Bryce to re-create the works of others in a way that has not been done before in Bryce.

Since I got sick my brain is no-longer wired the way it used to be. I get ideas but they are gone in a flash before I can even begin to work on the computer.
So now when you guys say 'I can build that in Wings', I'm saying, 'How can I build that in Bryce?'

I admire the imagination of people like Frogdot, Rochr and Gevidal - to mention just a few - don't be offened cos I left you out - but I also admire the skill of those who use other apps like 3dmax, vue, poser and so on, because I can't get my brain to concentrate on learning those apps.

At the end of the day, you can have technical skill and imagination, but you can also use technical skill imaginatively...

So how do I judge the work of others? Simple! By comparison. I expect every artist to improve on their last work.

Message edited on: 01/08/2006 07:17

Hi Erlik, no problem! I figured that was what you were doing.

@CrazyDawg I was never on a soap box to begin with. You just assumed I was. Now instead of kicking the soap box out from under me, you just kickd me in the leg, ouch! I have slightely changed my poisition when I said I was in total agreement with ERLIK. It takes learning the rules before you can break them, just as you need to sail across a rive before you can be at the other side. You can go back in read the post, it is my last post before this one. So yes skills and rules ar important, but I belive it is far more important to have the ablity to throw out all rules and create from there. I think the bottom line is, and of course it is only my opinion, That when creating whether it is 3d, paint, pencil and paper, sculpting, music etc. that one should not limited themselves by concepts as beauty, ugly, good taste, bad taste, good art, bad art or any other concept. I think getting to that point is the most in important part. I guess its more like the actual conception of the idea. You have to concieve of an idea before you can create it. The less you are bound by concepts the more pure the idea concieved will be. The concepts seem to serve as a filter that the mind runs through before the idea is concieved, the more filters the more diluted the idea becomes. So I see the importance of thechnical skill especially in the 3d. Techincal skill becomes the means by which you bring the idea into the world, so without sufficiant technical skill the idea never leaves the mind.But without a doubt I belive it is much more benifical to have a mind free of concepts with no technical ability to express ideas rather than a mind boxed into a corner by concepts but with great technical ability.

Very reluctant to enter this conversation. I don't consider my abilities as very artistic and don't have the time and resources to be the technical genius. I am a hobbyist when it comes to gallery submissions of my own. My 1/2 cent worth on the original question: I put it at 50/50 tech skill and imagination. Somethings blow me away because I am in awe of what I realize is skill I'll never approach. Somethings blow me away because the image invokes memories/thoughts/etc. by it's pure imagination or composition. Scene composition/color/lights can influence my reaction reguardless of subject matter or tech skill. BUT scene composition/color/lights can in fact be learned also (so is all a skill thing? I don't know)

Basically, composition, colour and lighting are skills to be learned. What blows you away is their good use. But you first to have learn the basics of the three, although it's far from impossible for people to do something by intuition or chance, even if they don't know the rules.

If it gives me a hardon or makes me cry , then I say wow this must be good ART, ill leave the analizing to the art historians who get paid for that. :p esher was very skillfull but i find most of his work very boring, it does translate good to rendering though.

I just look at what grabs my attention, technical problems may detract from an image - a major one in the poser gallery is lack of AA or bad joints, but it's the image presentation and therefore the 'art' that grabs me. My issue is that I understand the technical stuff and applying it, but I'm pants at expressing the image as it is my imagination, hence frustration. I'm also impatient so much of my stuff I know I could improve with more time, but I always want to jump to the next project.

a split 50/50 between technical skill and artistic abitity

I am mostly a technical realist so I tend to like the best in that genre but then I also like stuff that sets a mood. I define art that I like as Art that I like lol.

I judge art the same as Ayn Rand did.

Technology of the Soul if I remember it rightly.

For me it's just how good the final outcome looks to me, something that makes me wonder how I might do an image like that. An undifineable mix of color, contrast, composition, subject matter.