I just about lost it this morning, got into a discussion about art and I was told than my images did not have merit as art because I use prefabricated packages and models, that I do not create, just pose. I fired back that I am no different from a director or photographer, that I take the elements to create the image, that it is an outlet for me to express myself. I found it rubbed me wrong and just wanted to rant some. I lover Poser, I love all the people that create material for Poser. Thank you.

The best thing you can do is just walk away from people like that. Or better yet, suggest they try using Poser and see how the do. Some seem to think that Poser equals "click and poof..art". Best to not let those types get under your skin. Art is about being creative, be it using dryer lint or newspapers mixed with glue, paints and palette, or Poser and a computer. Unfortunately there are many ignorant and closed minded people out there that think the only type of "art" is that created by paints on a canvass. Too bad for them because they miss out on a lot in life.

Congratulations! You are the first one this year that stirs in that murky marsh of opinions. BUT: now you must take care of chips, beer, wine, sweets, etc for all of us. I'll have a Chablis and some dolmas please. Art? what's that? is it funny?

From the web: "Art, in its broadest meaning, is the expression of creativity or imagination, or both."

We have just had a similar argument over at another website.I am admin at an art group over there for 3d art. Now this can be anything to do with 3d. Not just poser. But another 3d art group that just specialised in modelling called poser users...."poser whores who just point and click."(that was the mild insult) We all know that poser isnt just point and click. It is a lot more than that. For a start without an imagination you aint got a hope in hell whether you can point or click or not. You all dont need me to go into the hows & whys.....we know it's art and we know a lot of traditional artists recognise it as art too. As far as I am concerned thats good enough for me. If they wanna be petty then so be it. If you dont like my work just dont look at it! We actually landed up getting an apology off the group involved and the retracted what they said. Which was kinda astonishing lol.....

Old joke: How many 3DS MAX guys does it take to change a lightbulb? - Only one, but he'll be a long time making the bulb.

I'd give a really good reply on their opinion of Poser artwork but I'd probably be banned from here for swearing.

3D renders are as much art as is Photography. A render is a captured image yes, but it still requires the same care and setup a photograpger would. Photographers don't make people, sew the clothes, build the props, or make up the models either, but they are still considered artists.

myeh, heard it a million times before, and will, no doubt, hear it another million. was this an "artist" you were argueing with, or a "critic"? must wash my fingers now after typing the C word...i feel so dirty ;-)

I've had people at Science Fiction and Fantasy Convention artshows go on and on how 3D rendered work is not art and how awful and low quality it is and then spend an equal amount of time telling me how much they like my art (which is all done in Poser 4 and Photoshop.) And when I tell them tghhat they tend to do a lot of really fast back-pedalling. ;-) Most of them simply have no concept of either what the programs can do/can not do or how much work it is to learn to use properly - they think there is a "make art" button in the program.

Yes Poser "art" is just like photography! As you, no doubt, know all photographers use the same couple of models, which they buy, the lights, which they buy, the clothes the models wear, which they buy, the pose which the model takes, which they buy, the background, which they buy, the hair style, which they buy. I've seen very few Poser images in the galleries which show any evidence of "expression of creativity or imagination" Poser is a hobby akin to train spotting ie watching and cataloguing someone elses efforts. Poser is of course a money maker because most users are incapable of origional work which of course keeps Renderosity very happy. There are a very small number of artists who use Poser along with other mediums but they are very few. Because a small number of artists use Poser does not mean that using Poser makes you an Artist as is self evident if you visit the Poser gallery.

byAnton... that is as good an answer as I have ever heard. Not that I feel totally easy about the "appropriation" inherent to photography. Something I battled desperately with Photography as my "minor" discipline in grad school.

" 3D renders are as much art as is Photography. Photographers don't make people, sew the clothes, build the props, or make up the models either, but they are still considered artists."

Yes, but the things you just mentioned are exactly why photography itself had struggled for centuries for validity as an artform. To many people, especially in the late 19th/early 20th century, photography was regarded as little more than a reproductive medium, and the photographers were considered more along the lines of technicians.

Poser seems to be viewed in the same light that Photography had been for many years, which isn't really unusual. So maybe 100 years from now, Poser will get the same type of respect in it's medium? ;-) Message edited on: 01/12/2006 08:01

Wow, this struck a nerve, but I am calm now. Some of you already know me and know that Poser came into my life in 9/05. "Point and Click???" Yes, that is what a lot of people think. Oh, no, no, no.....it is a LOT of hard work. I have dreamt of being an artist since I can remember. There used to be an ad in the back of my teen mags where you could send in your drawing of a pic they were showing and you could get to go to art school. I drew that profile until I was blue in the face. I thought I had perfected it....but I guess not. My mom is an acrylic artist and my son used to draw in different mediums. I wanted so much to do that. I couldn't even get the One-Stroke art right. Poser is the answer to a lot of prayers. I have the imagination and no talent. But, I did get a gift...understanding computers, programs, etc. Well, on a scale of 1 to 1 million of Poser knowledge, I am still in the negatives, but I cannot tell you how happy I am, and thankful, for what I do know. That's how easy it is!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!! Digital artists have many of the same things to learn as manual artists...shadowing, lighting, proper placement...the list is long... My scrapbooking group thinks I am taking pictures of things and tubing them. I might take days to do one thing...I have NOTHING against tubers...it is very hard...but it is usually of copyrighted art and that is something I am totally against!!!!!!!!!! Just one more thing....I am very thankful to all of the free products, the very generous artists, the reasonably priced products, and, oh my goodness....THE TUTORIALS!!!!

......... and just a corollary to what's been said - I've used Poser for just over a year now, and am learning to make my first body textures - I just wish it was as easy as painting/pastel/acrylic work! We'd all be knocking out textures every 2 minutes. Poser is just another aspect of our artistic expression.

"So maybe 100 years from now, Poser will get the same type of respect in it's medium? ;-)"< Why wait? hehe. Real artists don't slam other mediums. It comes from jealously, insecurity or a need to assert reaffirmations of ones own art. People like that must be summarily dismissed. On a side note, I asked a friend of mine once, who manages a museum, what makes art valuable. this is basically what she said: "Any form of expression, regardless of medium, can be justified as art. Aside from talent, the worth of art is often weighed, though not admittedly, by it's excusivity, meaning those art pieces that are unique or crafted from rare or valuable materials are more apt for consideration into antiquity. That which is mass-produced, or can be mass produced in equal quality to the original, is seem as common and not neccesarily precious."

(where is my 'Make Art' button?)

""Any form of expression, regardless of medium, can be justified as art. Aside from talent, the worth of art is often weighed, though not admittedly, by it's excusivity, meaning those art pieces that are unique or crafted from rare or valuable materials are more apt for consideration into antiquity. That which is mass-produced, or can be mass produced in equal quality to the original, is seem as common and not neccesarily precious."" It seems that is often the very argument made against using Poser... that it's mass-produced, or can easily be mass-produced, making it less valuable. For example, many people who purchase certain items can produce similar renders containing many of the same elements: the same textures, clothing, lighting, etc. Let's face it, art is USUALLY judged within it's own medium... meaning, you don't often see people saying Bach was more of an artist than Van Gogh, because it's like comparing apples to oranges. The point being, unlike Photography, which really had no way to contradict it's own legitimacy from within, Poser will always have an up-hill battle for respect within it's own medium, so long as there are those out there who choose to produce their 3D works from scratch (modelling, rigging, texturing, etc.). Of course, you CAN transcend the medium, but that depends entirely on the individual.

Casette "(where is my 'Make Art' button?)" My "make art" button is right beside the "make big boobs" button!! LOL!!! G

Real artists don't slam other mediums. It comes from jealously, insecurity or a need to assert reaffirmations of ones own art. Exactly! Very well put! :)

Oh Oh ... i know this topic from a while ago somewhere else... I say ... the name ART is made by sale's people. Galleries, auctioneers, and all those other people who make money from other people's work. ALL that people make is ART !! . but to make a difference to why you pay 100.000 $ or not is what makes it ART "in the money makers mind". If you make something and you ask 100.000 for it they say Get Real.... But then The gallerie called it ART and like magic people pay those amounts of money for it. When Rembrand was alife he was not "a Artist" he was what we now call a Photographer. After he was long gone some other dude found out he can make big bucks of that old painting. AND yes then in one second it was ART. So art is called art when people make lots of money of it. Just MHO or my 2 euro cents

FWIW, I had some pictures in an art gallery a couple of years back and one artist wanted to get Vicky's number to book her!

And my pieces were labelled as 'digital artwork' - he just thought it photoshopped (I'd only made it B&W and had them printed at a professional print shop)

Martin

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 09:08

if art was guaranteed from what tools you used or what profession you practiced, hollywood would be out of a job in selling us films in a world where everything is squeaky clean, everybody is nice and slim and good looking, etc etc etc... Talent makes art. Everything else is just a tool to make it easier and/or faster.

Wonderful image, Latexluv! Now THAT is art!!!

How many Poser artists does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one, but they have to
Load the light bulb
Select one of 25 transmap materials to determine the color of the glass
Load the uvmap for the filament
load the material for the contacts and screw..NOTE, this only works on Millenium Bulbs, unless you have CR2-Edison Bulb Editor, or Widget Wizard
Load the Interior light set for the Internal light dome
Load the morphable socket, that matches the Millenium bulb, that goes in the house that Jack built..;)
Hey, I have Poser, so I can have fun with it..

The problem is that people on both sides of the fence constantly mix up "art" with "craftmanship".

While you can make real "art" with (any version of) Poser, it is undeniable that modelling, mapping, texturing and rigging meshes from scratch takes more TECHNICAL SKILLS than buying Vicky3 and a character pack.

The "but we do composition work instead" argument is invalid, because the MAX/MAYA folks have to do this, too, ON TOP of the modeling work they already did.

The "originality" argument may or may be not valid, as on the one hand you can heavily morph any given mesh in Poser, and on the other hand even if you have the technical skills to create a mesh from scratch in MAX, it doesnt mean that you arent just copying somone elses work or idea.

But we Poser users must admit that many renders show V3s or M3s that are not morphed beyond recognition and that many works only differ in details, so there is an impression of arbitrariness to the outside observer.

But again, there is a lot of "kitsch" or "soft porn" among professional CGI, too. ^-^

Poser gave CGI "to the masses", so why taint this gift in order to adapt an elitist attitude ?

The only thing that counts is whether youre happy with your render or not, not what anyone else thinks about that.

stahlratte

Bullshit...Pose art IS ART!!! Sure we use props from other people, but the concept and final product is ours. And is art.

Bullshit...Poser art IS ART!!! Sure we use props from other people, but the concept and final product is ours. And that is art. It is our imagination, and work that make the final image.

Well if you worked in the film industry and advertisment you would be required to create all your own 3d elements because of copyright laws.

GEE...Thank you all, I guess we all have a 'nerve' on the subject.

And what artist lets the tools define them as artists? It's not the tools they use it's the way they use them.

ofcourse poser is art ! :) i got in to a discussion w someone i know who also said its not art, only painted and drawn pics are ...grr. oh well:) so poser is cool :)

"Well if you worked in the film industry and advertisment you would be required to create all your own 3d elements because of copyright laws." That doesn't seem very realistic to me. It's neither cost nor time(cost/time=$$) efficient. Have you ever watched any of those "The making of..." documentaries? If I recall correctly, they have entire teams of professionals who collaberate; each member having their own areas of expertise and skills to contribute.

I never understood this debate. Some - in fact many - people think that the only legitimate way to be interested in 3d in a creative way is if you want to model. Thsi is very odd to me. Take any movie. Someone chose the costumes but they did not necessarily sew them. If you want to say the costume director is not an artist becasue he or she did not actually stitch the clothes together then fine. But whether its art or not it still takes creativity and may be fun to do. Then there is writing and directing the script. They are not responsible for creating all the props on the stage. They don't help construct the stage. Are they therefore not artists? In 3d it seems the "stage hands" (those who literally construct the stage) often become the Self proclaimed one and only artists while the writers and "directors" are considered lower than scum. IMO I really don't care whether I am called an artist or not. I am interested in writing and "directing" animations. I am not the least bit interested in creating a pair of pants for the characters in my animations to wear. Why doesn't the 3d programing world realize there are probably allot more people like me than not. It seems Poser (and now daz studio, and perhaps carrera) are the only programs that tries to make my goals attainable. But even they are awkward to use. Why is there this absolutely stupid tension between people who want to model thier own stuff and people who don't?

Amen!

Attached Link: http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty

At the riusk of raising an unpopular opinion... I've said for a long time that 95% of what we generate isnt art. It's craft. It's sometimes very good craft, but it doesnt have that "ah-hah!" spark that Art with a capital A can cause. A lot of our stuff (and I'm just as guilty as the next guy, folks) is put together without a lot of thought about composition, form, colour, visual weight -- let alone the deeper issues of meaning. It's just a pretty girl in front of a tree, or a naked Amazonian warrioress in a temple with a sword. Now there are those who can take those creaky old Poser warhorses and do something truly spectacular with them, in such a way that they go beyond just a render -- but let's be honest here, that doesnt happen too often. The store promo images that DM does for their buildings and props have more intent put into them than what we do in turn., I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that we should maintain a certain sense of perspective about the issue. CGI may have levelled the playing field by making Art relatively easy... but it doesnt necessary make Art. (... unless, of course, one has Wardrobe Wizard, which does indeed have a Make Art button built in, but that's another issue. :) ) And before someone throws out the hoary question, "Well, fine, Mister Smarty Pants, what is Art?", I'll say it right now: I dont know. I react to it on a visceral level, not a rational one. There's more truth to that adage about knowing it when we see it than we probably care to admit.

Art is not about technique, or tools or medium used. That is technical skill.

Art is emotion, and the passing of that emotion to the viewer. If a render has an emotional effect on the viewer then it has succeeded in becoming Art, if not then that render is a technical illustration.

Many of the renders in the gallery do not have this emotional content, and even though very well done technique wise fail to evoke any emotional response.

A good case in point are the many portraits in the galleries, too many are just a shout of look at me aren't i good looking. Don't get me wrong, a lot of these portraits are fabulous works of technical skill and sweat. They just fail emotionally.

Some have stood out from the crowd, i remember one from years ago of a girl with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, The expression on the girls face plainly let you into her mind to feel which direction she was leaning. This piece made me laugh out loud, and has stuck with me all this time. Now i can't remember the Artist or the title of the render, but i can see it still in my mind, and feel that humour, as if i were looking at it now.

You need to put apiece of your soul into your renders, whether humour or compassion, fear or anger. Not all great art is technically outstanding, some is down right primitive LOL. But it all does one thing well it stirs our souls.

My 2 cents Canadian. 1.8 cents U.S.

Ron

How many Poser artists does it take to change a light bulb?(/quote)

Packed, WHOAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA :D

Latexluv, nice screenshot. It comes with P6 SR3 ??? Or with Poser8 ?? (read a past thread: Poser7, Legend Of The Missed Version)

muahahaaaa

(obviously I can't enter seriously in this thread. Those 3D MAX people are morons. Poser isn't a software, it's a religion. Hell for them)

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 12:51

Oh, I think this discussion will never stop. But in my opinion first you'll have to define what "art" really is. My arts teacher made a painting (if you can call it that) gluing scraps of newspaper onto a canvas and putting a few red brush strokes over it. This was considered art and was shown in a gallery. Well, this is not my thing... The problem may be that in 3D art everyone can show their work in online galleries, even if they are only beginners. I think this is good because this way you can get feedback, but some critics may have a problem with people who are only at the beginning of their craft. So they just say: all 3d art is thrash. But who would say oil paintings aren't art because there are many dilettantes who try to paint? Somebody said: the most merciless critics are those who would like to be an artist but lack the talent. And I think that's true. esha

I really dont see what all the fuss is about (and why this topic is so popular every month..) What does 'art' have to do with the medium it has been created with ? People produce horribly bad output with the most high end of 3d apps, its not like poser has a monoply on this. And even using the most high end of apps wont make anyone an artist or anything either. Now i am primarily a modeller, and i can understand some of the pride that modellers feel cause IMO modelling is the most satisfying and direct of all the 3d disciplines. It lets you see instant results and is closest to the feeling of 'creating something with your own hand' as you can get in 3d. However this doesnt mean that its the only game in 3d, cause other disciplines are just as (if not more) important, even if they are more subtle in the results they produce. As long as the result shows the creator's hard work and care in producing it, im happy to give it a thumbs up, even if its lighting, texturing or even arranging/posing. I do confess some distaste in looking at 'poserart', where its just a bunch of randomly thrown together props/figures and the user is too lazy to make of use of the wonderful things he has in there. But then perhaps not everyone uses poser with the same aims, and some might be getting enough satisfaction from just playing with it. Bottomline, some of the more pretentious 'artists' out there (on both sides of this fence) just need to get off their high horse is all... And the really talented/skilled artists dont have this kind of elitist attitude in the first place.

"Art [is] a selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgements"....Ayn Rand in 'The Romantic Manifesto' The craft is in the technique of recreation. The Art is in the conveying of meaning, as emanating from the artist's values. I concurr. ::::: Opera :::::

Yay, an art rant! I love these! Are Poser renders art? I say YES. Unfortunately, far and away the majority of them are BAD art.

This is not a slam. It is the nature of the process. How many photographers have there been since the invention of the camera? Millions surely. How many Ansel Adams-level artists have we seen? A much, much lower number.

Most art, of ANY genre, is pure dreck. We get a very distorted view because we study art HISTORY, which of course takes only the most outstanding work of a given medium and era, and holds it up as representative. Did the Renaissance produce great art? SURE! But was most of the art produced then great? Consider that in any city of moderate size, all across Europe, you had one or more full-time artists shops producing work for the local nobility and mercantile class, for the entire duration of the Renaissance. That's a lot of art! Where is most of it now? Not hanging in museums or decorating art textbooks. Lost and forgotten because it was not worth keeping and rememebering. This is true of all art forms.

As for what art really is, it will never be agreed upon. One definition I read said "the artist has an idea." And that's it! No work even has to be produced. The concept is the art. Sour bread dough dumped on a mountaintop? Molten lead drizzled in the corners of an otherwise empty room? A near-life-size sculpture of Michael Jackson and his chimp, done in gilded porcelain (sculpted, poured, painted and fired by someone other than the "artist")? All these are considered art - by some. Some people just don't consider modern, non-representational art as art at all.

Jan_scrapper, your post really touched a nerve as well. I'm glad you are finding Poser to be the kind of outlet you so desperately sought. However, I would like to pass along the words of artist and art instructor Betty Edwards: "Anyone of sound mind can draw." I'd urge you (and everyone) to pick up a copy (if you haven't already) of her landmark Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain. My wife (who was studying figure drawing at the Art Student's League in NYC at the time) did a small workshop years ago for me and a couple of friends, based on this book. A few years later, I was filliping through my sketchbook from the class and said, "Oh, here's a sketch you did in my sketchbook." She looked at it and said. "No it's not. It's the one you did in the workshop." I could hardly believe it, but she was right! Unfortunately, because I haven't practiced since then, my drawing skills have dropped back to stick-figure level. :-P But getting them back and taking them farther is one of my resoultions for this year!

Adding traditional artistic skills to your toolbox can never be a bad thing, it can only improve your work. If you look at the work done for many awesome 3-D works, they almost always start with concept sketches - just pencil on paper. (Check out the "Giving Chest" site over at DAZ3D for a good example.) Plus, think of it as the ultimate way to shut up those "you're not a real artist" nimrods! "Oh yeah? (whipping out sketchbook) Check out my nekkid Vicky in a temple concept sketches!" :-)

-Jimdoria ~@>@

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 13:28

They probably hate "Finding Nemo" because it didn't use real fish.

How they call us?? Poser whores?? Heh. Funny "But too much expensive for you, boy. Grow and return" The definition of Art, twenty-seventh meaning: "Nude Vicky in a temple with a sword" SO POSER IS ART !!!! :D

(some software probably comes with any kind of plugin which reset to zero the user's brain... I had this conversation a lot of times with 3D MAX users) (some photo cameras also have that plug-in) (and some pencils) (and some...)

You're absolutely right.... Poser art is NOT real art at all. Anyone can do it, anyone can learn it, no talent needed at all. Even kids can do it. Now try to create a Rembrandt or so without talent.....

If I'm a Poser Whore, who's my pimp, and more importantly, where's his money?

" If I'm a Poser Whore, who's my pimp, and more importantly, where's his money?" ROTFLMAO!!! Can I steal that? >^_~