Hello Everyone, I saw in the thread for the new ValerieP4 hybrid char, a posette hair used called Reika Hair. This was a free item by Minerva, hosted at Rubio's Room, which I am fairly certain was a Japanese site. http://home.att.ne.jp/yellow/RUBI/topenter.htm is the URL, but site is down now :( Evidently there was also a P4 char here called Satsuki, also gone. A translation of the site reads: Thank you for patronizing this homepage. By convenience personal of the manager The homepage cannot be updated. Outlook for the future doesn't stand. Though it will trouble everybody I will stop for the time being. It is turning holding out to the revival. Thank you for a long time. Thank you sincerely. Important information From the address named rubio@room.ne.jp Though mail seems to have been transmitted to my acquaintance addressing I do not know at all. The mail address of present rubio is not this mail address. Even if mail reaches hand in the above-mentioned address Please annul it without opening it. ive emailed rubio@zag.att.ne.jp but dont know if this is a valid email, or if rubio can get my email translated. Havent tried rubio@room.ne.jp yet, it seems the text above indicates its no longer his? Anyhow, If anyone is fluent in both languages and interested in Posette, wanna try these emails and ask for permission to get this item to several RO members? Thanks for reading, Logan

Yes, Rubios Site ist down since a longer time, and isnt planed to start again.

Sorry. I don't understand these ridiculous copyright laws. It looks logic if we are talking about soldable items. But Reika and the Reika hair was a freebie. What is the reason to no distribution of a freebie that was downloadable thousand times in its original site?

And... if Rubio is dissapeared of the 3D world? If no contact? And some people have still the original Reika installer?

Message edited on: 01/28/2006 18:19

Actually, Reika is/was a character for Vicki 2. Of course that doesn't really matter as far as the hair is concerned. It came included with the character from minerva's website Digital Love Doll (http://mine.site.ne.jp/dld/). I remember getting her (and Satsuki) from there but perhaps Rubio hosted the hair as well.

Sadly, DLD has apparently gone the way of all flesh as well but if you delete the /dld from the URL, Minerva has some other sites which are still active so I'd try contacting him. If he's around, perhaps he'd be willing to arrange something since you only want the hair (Unless of course Rubio created the hair, but he did mostly clothing and figures so I don't know on that).

At any rate, maybe that's another avenue. It's a nice hair, reminds me a bit of Catherine Bell on JAG.

minerva@ccmg.org

Message edited on: 01/28/2006 20:16

Casette, I can think of many reasons for non-redistribution of a freebie,I don't personally think copyright laws are all that ridiculous... ;) I don't know Rubio's reasons for this, but if she still wanted her stuff offered somewhere else surely she could have arranged for that before she disappeared. She didn't and unless she comes back and says otherwise, we have to assume she doesn't want people to redistribute her work, whatever the reason.

Well getting a legitimate disto allowance still aint a dead deal, ima gonna take svdl's advice and run this hunt into the friggin ground :)

Once upon a time, I suggested a Poser 'repository' for people who didn't want their items to disappear but still wanted a measure of control over their distribution. You subimt your items to the repository if you die or are no longer able to maintain a download site, the repository is authorized to distribute the items. You can tell them to stop at any time of course. They would charge a small fee for downloads to defray the cost of operation. If people had some assurance that things would be available in the future it might cut down on the perceived pressure to 'grab it now, even if you don't really need it now' as well.

I sent an email to the ccmg.org address and so far it hasn't been returned. I asked if I could get a copy of the file from her, or from someone else who has the file. I also asked if she would amend her TOU for that item and allow redistribution of it. I also offered to host the file on my website so it's once again available to those who want it. So hopefully the mail will get to her and I'll get a reply.

Rock on Acadia :) and Larry sorry, I dunno why I credited Steven with your advice, im multitaskin and frazzled as usual

Blew right past me. I thought youse was talkin' 'bout some udder advice.

That's the old gamewith freebies, if you're on a site with freebies, download them, you don't know if you will need them and nobody know, how long they are available 'cause most of the freebies are made by hobby artists and when they change their hobby, may be they will close their site. Happy downing

I emailed as well :-) If I get an answer, I'll post here

Lucie, you don't convinced me. I have a freebie, NATTY-V2. If one day I leave the Poser and 3D world, perhaps I'll forget to enter in my readme and update it with: 'you can NOW distribute my freebie all over the world'

Or: tomorrow I die. 999,999 persons have downloaded my freebie. NOBODY can contact me. YOU wants my freebie. No one could help you?

Copyright laws are for protect rights. And they are good and necessary, over all for avoid piracy in SELLERS. But when we are talking about FREEBIES and one artist abandons these rights, it's ridiculous for me to support them. Laws are laws and I follow them, but... IMHO, it's incredible that some of us have a lot of fantastic Rubio's freebies (Reika, the sarong, the sheet dress...) and we tied to free distribute them because laws written for fellows who never have seen a free 3D file or know what is a 3D community

The repository sounds as a nice idea, but I'm afraid impossible EDITED: Different for me if an artist retires a freebie to convert it in a soldable item. Or an item was free for a time and then it pass to the market (CP freebs, for example)

Message edited on: 01/29/2006 04:04

"The repository sounds as a nice idea, but I'm afraid impossible" It would take someone reputable and stable to set it up like Daz or CL or perhaps even 'Rosity. I think the main detail to work out would be the conditions under which an item would be activated--maybe the registered download site is down for 30 days or more and they are unable to contact the owner... In the software business they have something called sourcecode escrow. If the company you bought the program from goes out of business, you can get the sourcecode from the escrow agent. It's not the same thing but the general concept of a 3rd party is similar perhaps. So, if you go to Poser Paradise with 72 virgin Vickies, your freebie would live on. Perhaps there would even be a little left from the download fees to feed the hamster :-)

I'm a bit sceptical. As soon as you propose the idea to a website they will answer: 'law says ...' and end of the matter

The easiest thing is to put in the readme file a note saying that non-commercial redistribution of the item is permissible. I don't know why more people don't do this. If an item can be passed around, the original creator doesn't get hit for so much bandwidth, and the most people get the benefit of the item. I have this clause in my standard readme for all my free items. I don't gain anything by people NOT sharing the stuff.

Some people still make money off of people visiting their sites. They also may have other items that they want the individual to see. They also may, like Rubio, decide not to offer the Freebie anymore. BAT Lab did this with the Limited. Stonemason and others have done this with Monthly Free Items here at RO in the newsletter. Why can't people respect the wishes or decisions of the creators.

Oh I hear you, but I don't think she's dead... She just took the decision to remove all her stuff... She used to offer some freebies on that other Japanese site where many other japanese fellows offer stuff (Fashion Collection?) and even there you can't download her things. She has many japanese friends who am sure would have been happy to host the files for her, she could easily have made them available somewhere else yet she decided to just remove them all so I'm thinking maybe there's a reason for this that we can't imagine or something... Different for me if an artist retires a freebie to convert it in a soldable item Who knows? Maybe that's what happened? She sold the rights to all her stuff to someone else and that someone is just not wanting to offer them anywhere? Ok, I doubt it, but we don't know really and untill she comes back and says it's ok to redistribute her stuff, we have to assume it's not ok however frustrating it might be...

Remeber that offering Free items is a great way to draw people to your website or storefront. But that only works if everyone has to visit your website or storefront. If one hundred people download, then begin distributing themselves, there goes anything that looks like advertising. It may not even be that the person offering the freebie is looking to advertise their Poser or 3D stuff, they may be selling banner space on their website and generating revenue off ofa consistent volume of traffic on site. The internet economy is less and less about exchanging hard currency for a physical object, or even a digital object. Also, if you want your free items to persist and thrive after you die or leave the community, then YOU should be sure to put a clause about open distribution in your readme NOW. Then you won't worry about needing to remember to change it later. Best of luck in your search!

"...put a clause about open distribution in your readme NOW." I think we all can agree on that. For the economic or other reasons stated though, people may be reluctant to do that. The problem is, there is no easy way to change your mind if you die (how many people put their 3D stuff in their will?). Also, people may lose their website for financial or other reasons, get bored and leave the hobby, etc. Sometimes, you see someone post, 'Hey, I'm retiring to Tibet, anyone who wants can distribute my stuff,' but not very often. Does everyone even necessarily even think about it though? To be clear, I'm not thinking about the folks who choose NOT to allow distribution. I'm thinking of the (perhaps many) times when people just don't really think about it one way or another when they leave and who might like to have their creations remain available if there were a structured way of giving them to the community. Hopefully that all made sense. If people really want the stuff to go away, that's fine, I have no problem with that. I just wonder how often that happens more or less by default. Because of Sthalrette's work, some people are getting back into Posette, they were giving away Poser 3 on cover disks a while back and the same may happen eventually with Poser Artist. New people come into the community and there are so many great things they could use and enjoy that simply disappeared. It would be nice to save some of them.

It would be a good idea. All we have a lot of freebies stored (I have over 15 cd-roms). Sometimes (like now) it's impossible to find the artist, but sure his desire would be to offer his freebs to the community. Why not a repository area controlled by Rendo to avoid abuses? Where people could upload lost freebies to offer them again to the community? To change a clause in freestuff: 'your freebie remains in the community unless you express the opposite'? But... sceptic, I said. Laws, laws laws...

I don't see any legal hangup as long as people give their consent and can revoke it at any time. I think it would probably work better as an opt-in rather than opt-out though and you can opt-in at any time.

Progress report: No bouncback of emails to Rubio or Minerva, no responses either unfortunately.

Ditto.

Last I heard, Rubio was not dead, but she was very, very sick. That is why she can no longer maintain her web site.

But she did take the time to take down her stuff, and put up the notice explaining why. Presumably, if she wanted to have someone else host her stuff, she could have. She doesn't. IMO, the least we can do is respect her wishes.

I dont see that anything done up to this point in this situation has disrespected any modeller in the community. The reasons suggested in posts 17, 18, and 19 all seem perfectly reasonable and valid and could very well explain the current situation. Im sorry to hear about the news that illness can also be a factor. To put this in perspective however, at this point at worst, there has been grumbling either perceptible or not about the lack of availability of the item in a few forum posts, Ive sent a very polite and reasonable email to Rubio and minerva, as Im sure is the case with the email sent by Acadia, and I would give the benefit of the doubt that any lurkers here that emailed as well had the common sence to make a respectful request out of it. While Im certain that no one who is sick wants to be "spammed" to excess, this is not much of a flood of emails. If the illness is so extreme that the net/email is no longer preformed as a hobbie, the emails wont even get read or "bother" the modellers to begin with. If they are read by the modellers, how terrible can it be to know that several people want to enjoy the fruits of thier labors that hadnt had a chance to previously? Guys its better than a pointed stick in the eye im sure :) With the site down, no counters active, no advertising income lost as the item is no longer on any site to draw hits to anyway, I cant see the harm in asking the legitimate owner of the item if at this time its permissible to get the item OK'ed for exchange between community members

I wasn't talking about anything you did. I was referring to Casette's comment that's it's "ridiculous" to support copyright on a freebie.

It's not ridiculous. And it's not like Rubio became incapacitated unexpectedly and didn't have time to make her wishes known. She doesn't want her freebies redistributed any more, and that is her right.

Sorry, because I can't edit my post. If you prefer:

"Sorry. I don't understand these copyright laws... SEEMS RIDICULOUS TO ME"

(and as I can see, also to many people)

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 18:30

No offence percieved here randym, I had no idea before I started this riot that we were dealing with an ill modeller. I can see and appreciate the various angles of this. We who recieve anything for free should be grateful we are recieving it at all and accept it in form its delievered. Freebies are a huge part of what keeps people rendering, especially between paychecks. Freestuff providers probably never get all the appreciation they truly deserve. That said its also easy to sympathise with people who cannot model with something when they are part of a community of thousands, and hundreds of those memebers have the item, acquired free, as they were lucky enough to be around early enough or to have been aware of a URL when it originally came out. I cant help but think its a shame that so many modellers cant see just how much longevity thier items have in this community due to thier distribution restrictions. Even worse is that history has proven that modellers who's first lang isnt english and use english readme templates or translators often wind up with much less open distribution rights than they had intended for thier items :(

Quote - Ive sent a very polite and reasonable email to Rubio and minerva, as Im sure is the case with the email sent by Acadia,

I hope mine was polite enough. Here is what I sent: "Hi, a number of us at Renderosity are trying to locate a copy of your brilliant Reika hair, but have been unable to. I was wondering if I could obtain a copy of it from you, or receive permission to have someone who has it, send it to me. Currently your readme from the file apparently states "no redistribution". Also, I would be willing to host the file for you on my site so that others who may want the hair can still get it... with your permission of course. Regards, Linda"

For me it's easy. Rubio's sarong: last state? freebie. Any last instruction from Rubio when she dissapeared? No. So the item remains freebie, but tied by laws WHICH SEEM RIDICULOUS FOR ME talking about freebies. A freebie is a gift. If Rubio don't said anything, why you have to understand this no-decission converts the freebie in something different?

But I follow laws. Hey, can I render a freebie that I downloaded when it was available? May be its status of "usable item" has changed also... may be if the creator dissapears you can't use the freebies that she created as gifts to the community...

Obviously I'm kidding. Ridiculous

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 19:32

Any last instruction from Rubio when she dissapeared?

Yes. She took her freebies down, but left her site up. I think that says it all. It's not that she stopped paying her hosting fees and her site went offline. She took down her freebies, and uploaded a note explaining why.

She has some great freebies, and we've had many threads like this before. People have offered to host her freebies (as I'm sure her Japanese friends did as well). But she doesn't answer her e-mail any more, so I don't expect she will this time, either.

Maybe she'll return to Poser when she feels better and put her freebies up again.

You know, BatLab has offered several freebies in the past for a period of time and then he removed them from his site and they aren't available anywhere else, many other artists do the same too, do you feel like you should have the right to redistribute those freebies he or they used to offer because they were once a gift to the communities?

Rubio did say something, but you don't seem to hear it, she took her files off her site, she didn't make arrangement for anyone else to offer them when she could have done that, what it says to me is kinda clear... ;)

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 19:51

I'm sorry to hear about Minerva. However, I can't retract my email from her email box as I sent it a day or two before this thread was created. If she answers she answers, if she doesn't, nothing I can do about it but it does seem like a great loss to the community her having removed her items completely. But that was her choice and her right.

Just as a clarification, At one of the sites I hit in my initial search for the hair (the link to it found in the readme in a texture freebie still offered here at RO) there were a few instances of references to different items by both modellers, and in all cases, it said "item by Mr Rubio" and "item by Mr Minerva" I came into this thread thinking that both Rubio and Minerva were the online identies of two Japanese gentlemen modelers (although I knew the name Minerva as the name of female chars in several fictions I had read and thougt it an odd choice for a guy). In this thread, both modellers are being alternately identified as he and she by different posters. Am I to understand both these modellers are women, or just one? One modeller made a Reika char and hair for Vicki and the other modeller made a dress for the char, or was the char/hair a dual modeller collaberation? Rubio's Room website is only an out of service message, so Im guessing its Minerva that still has an active site? Is this where the message regarding absence of freebies is or was the explanation only a temporary thing? Please understand, Im not digging for info to hassle a sick person, Im just honestly curious. It really looked to be a sweet freebie.

Weirdly, I think Minerva is male. Rubio is female.

Minerva took his site down. I don't know why. Rubio's site is still up, but she took all the freebies down. She put a message up in Japanese, with a very clumsy translation to English. It's still there, I just checked.

Some of her Japanese friends explained why she had taken down her freebies, or I wouldn't have understood the message.

A freebie is a gift. If Rubio don't said anything, why you have to understand this no-decission converts the freebie in something different? Because the gift wasn't the item itself. The gift was permission for you, specifically, to use a single copy of that gift for your specific non commercial purposes. Not the item, but the permission to use it, is what is important. A fair parallel is letting someone drive your car. You give them permission to drive it to the store real quick one afternoon. That night, they come back, hop in without asking, and start off on a road trip of a couple thousand miles. May be if the creator dissapears you can't use the freebies that she created as gifts to the community... Obviously I'm kidding. Ridiculous Not so. There are a couple of private groups I know of where precisely those terms have been applied and enforced. It's also well within the rights of the creator to do so.

I don't think that letting someone drive your car is a good analogy at all. If someone took your car you would miss it. Look at it this way. Suppose I have a freebie that I downloaded in 2003, which is now vanished. Someone asks me for a copy and I give it to them (which I wouldn't actually do, but let's suppose I did). That person now has the item. But who, besides us two, knows? If the person claims that they also downloaded it in 2003, who can tell the difference? This is why there is an air of ridiculousness about it all. Put it another way: A makes a freebie and gives it away in 2003. In 2006 it's gone. We have two Poser users, B and C. The possible situations are: 1) B & C both download in 2003. Both have it. 2) B downloads in 2003. B has it, C goes without. 3) B downloads in 2003 and gives to C. Both have it. From the perspective of anyone other than B and C, outcomes 1 and 3 are identical. From the perspective of A, all outcomes are identical (since A has no contact with C). Outcome 3 may be illegal, but it is a victimless "crime", and also an invisible and intangible one. Also, if outcome 1 does not occur and we have only 2 or 3, who benefits from the outcome being 2 rather than 3? A doesn't benefit. C disbenefits from outcome 2. In outcome 3, C benefits and A doesn't disbenefit. So which is better overall, from the viewpoint of moral philosophy?

It's not necessarily victimless. What if the creator of the items took them down because he hopes to sell them one day? Perhaps he's sick and can't work. His financial situation has changed.

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, Batlab used to give out "limited" freebies, some of which ended up in his store when he became a merchant.

So which is better overall, from the viewpoint of moral philosophy?

To honor the wishes of the person generous enough to offer the freebies. If you don't like the terms, don't download them. Abusing the terms of use is not only rude, it discourages people from offering freebies.

"To honor the wishes of the person generous enough to offer the freebies. If you don't like the terms, don't download them" Okay. And... If you like the terms but you have bad luck and you come late to download it? And I remember you we are talking about different things. For me isn't the same BATLAB, who put freebies for limited time because finally he sells them, or ContentParadise with the freebies for a week and then on sale (hey, I missed CP-Bee and I'm not asking people who can send it to me, because it is in the market)... and the different case of Rubio, who dissapeared, her site exists so may be she returns one day but nobody can contact with her This discussion is useless indeed. I said: a repository would be a nice idea; but while laws are laws that's impossible to do

Yes, a repository would be nice, but what makes you think Rubio would have wanted to put her freebies in it? And if she hadn't, the situation would be the same as it is now, people would be wondering: "Did she know there is a repository?", "maybe she never thought about putting it there?" "we should send her emails and ask her if it's ok to put her past freebies in the repository", "but she's not answering her emails, shouldn't we be allowed to put it there anyway since she offered those freebies for the longest time?" etc, etc...

If you like the terms but you have bad luck and you come late to download it?

Then you're out of luck. The same thing happens if a merchant passes away. You want to buy his products, but you can't, unless his heirs agree to keep selling them. And usually, they do not understand Poser well enough to do that.

I said: a repository would be a nice idea; but while laws are laws that's impossible to do

It's not impossible. Just get permission. Many freebie makers do give permission. I am hosting a couple of Lourdes' freebies; she lost her Web site, but posted a message here granting permission to redistribute. There was a whole thread once, of people announcing to the community their wishes for their products should they die or disappear.

"It's not impossible. Just get permission" I remember you all this thread started with Rubio's Reika hair, and she is dissapeared, so she can't BTM give permission of any class

Obviously, it wouldn't apply to this particular product. Rubio did not want her products redistributed.

But there are a lot of others out there. And if there were a repository site - one that was well-run, and protected the rights of the artists - people might be more willing to allow redistribution.

I think a lot of Japanese freebie makers have been burned. People collected their freebies on CD and sold them on eBay, or claimed to have made them themselves and gave them away as freebies or sold them. That's why so many of them have restrictive readmes, and are reluctant to allow redistribution.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2564188

We are more than a store or a marketplace or people changing freebies. We are a community. I think there's a lot of clauses which would be changed

...but may be in other life. Sceptic

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 10:06

If Gebe wanted her product to be available, she could have made arrangements for it. It's sadder with artists like Ironhart, who die suddenly and unexpectedly. Perhaps he would have wanted his products to remain available, but no one knows, and his heirs just don't know enough about Poser to keep the products on the market or support them.

If you want your products to remain accessible after you're gone, you have to make arrangements. Heck, it's not just 3d models. Families throw away stuff that they don't realize is very valuable, or would be valuable to a fellow hobbyist. Baseball cards, milk glass, antique clothing, you name it. I've spoken to friends about dealing with my hobby stuff if I kick off unexpectedly, because I know my family won't know what to do with it.

If Gebe wanted her product to be available, she could have made arrangements for it

This is pretty ridiculous, randy. Have YOU in your testament a clause saying: 'And with regard to my art stored in Renderosity, I want that...' ????????

People usually don't think they would be dead at the next day. Are you thinking on a testament in each readme?

And 'If you want your products to remain accessible after you're gone, you have to make arrangements' ... AFAIK each person in a 99% average is the only one who knows the details of their internet presence: login and passwords for sites, link for access, people that you need to contact if anyone passed... My wife knows what must to do with my PHYSICAL things, but she not at least knows how find Renderosity. Really she don't knows how switch-on my computer neither surfing in the net (because she don't uses it)

In my case (and I suppose is very usual), if tomorrow I die I have no testament. And if I write one, probably I could forget instructions about my 3D art. All we have the confidence in a long long life ... like Gebe or Ironhart. Nobody expect their death

Rosity might take all this in mind to create a guidelines or a 'in-case-of-death' form which artists, vendors could sign...

Have YOU in your testament a clause saying: 'And with regard to my art stored in Renderosity, I want that...' ????????

No need. Rosity leaves galleries up when the artist dies.

People usually don't think they would be dead at the next day.

Gebe did not pass away suddenly or unexpectedly. She knew what was coming.

My wife knows what must to do with my PHYSICAL things, but she not at least knows how find Renderosity. Really she don't knows how switch-on my computer neither surfing in the net (because she don't uses it)

Exactly. That is why it's best to make arrangements with a friend who shares your interest, whatever it is. In the case of something like Rosity free stuff, you don't have to put it in your will. Rosity will accept a message posted here to the forums as permission to redistribute if you die. Many have posted such messages.

If I had a store here, I think I would give copies of my products to a trusted friend here at Rosity, along with a letter spelling out what I wanted. I think that would be good enough. I'd probably ask that the products be taken down for a year, then given to a freebie hoster like Planit3D.

Rosity might take all this in mind to create a guidelines or a 'in-case-of-death' form which artists, vendors could sign...

That's an idea, though I don't know what the legal issues would be. It would at least encourage people to think about it.

Casette, if someone isn't doing business on the web they wouldn't think about this, but if a person does I think the thought will cross their mind... Personally, I made a document for hubby with all my login and password to all the stores where I broker so that he can take care of things if something should happen to me. I suspect many merchants who do lots of business online will think about making arrangements.

It's a good idea. I earn from three paysites in internet and I never thought in doing arrangements... mmmh...