Quote - those who would ruin the Marketplace and ruin the artists who create original work by letting crimes pass unnoticed.

I'm not asking for "silence", at least in the manner that you think, or for things to be swept under the rug. If that's what people think I'm doing, then there has been some miscommunication and a failure on my part to get my message across. What I'm saying is threads such as the ones I've pointed out shouldn't be allowed to happen in the first place. Does that mean that fellow merchants or buyers don't have a right to know that the items they have may be in violation of copyright? No. But there are better ways to handle situations such as this. In my opinion Renderosity drops the ball big time in this area. It shouldn't be a merchant or a buyer posting their story on the forums resulting in such threads as I pointed out. Renderosity should be making an official announcement either via the front page or in the newsletter saying something along the lines of: "Effective immediately, so and so will no longer have a store at Renderosity. If you have purchased items from this merchant, please contact us via email at

Stacey - acadia is deliberately pushing to have these thread locked, its what she has wanted all along. noone else is being uncivil. when a single person is being uncivil in two separate threads, while dozens of others are having a productive and polite discussion, locking the entire thread doesnt seem like a very fair course of action. used to be that in these cases rosity would 24hr ban the offending party who didnt heed the more than half a dozen warnings both you and karen have given in both of these threads. cheers, -gabriel

We dont make public announcements around issues like this. However, We do notify previous buyers of products that have potential copyright/intellectual property issues. Please note the word potential. Renderosity is not a court and only a court of law can hand down a verdict on whether a product is truly in violation of anothers intellectual property. Clint

Quote - acadia is deliberately pushing to have these thread locked,

Sorry, not true. Trying to get this thread locked would be counter productive to the reason behind my initial post in this thread. As for being uncivil? Hope you aren't referring to me because I haven't made any uncivil comments or attacked anyone's character in anyway, in either thread. That's not my style. I discuss and I debate words, I don't attack people on a personal level, never have, and never will. Also at the end of the day each thread is a new start IMHO. I don't carry "baggage" from one thread to another and hold grudges based on previous threads or differences of opinion. As for my commment about locking it and saying that while she's at it she should lock the one in the poser forum, I stated that because for some reason Stacey felt a need to step in and threaten to lock this thread. Seeing that the thread in the poser forum is the offending thread, and this one was just trying to present my opinion that threads like that and the other types I listed shouldn't be allowed, I felt that if she was going to lock this one, then she should also be locking the other.

Quote - We dont make public announcements around issues like this.

See, that I don't understand. Renderosity is the host of the merchants' stores, they take apparently 50% of the sales that the merchants make. I would think that Renderosity then has an obligation to notify the people who bought items from the merchant in question. After all it's your site's reputation on the line. Bad reputation equals no merchants or buyers... equals bad for the bottom line.

It shouldn't be up to any merchant or customer to announce the closing of a store due to copyright violation. By them making the announcement on the public forum the thread steam rolls into a runaway train and brings negative publicity to this site and it's merchants.

Renderosity as the owner of this site and the host of the merchants' stores has a moral obligation...no, make that a professional obligation, to deal with issues such as this in a productive and professional manner that results in the least amount of damage for all parties involved, while still maintaining confidentiality. As I stated, a simple "so and so is not a merchant here any longer, if you bought items from him, please email us" is enough of an announcement and it shows professionalism on the store host's part.

Other than the merchants who have done business with the offender, or those customers that bought items from that person, what happened is really no one else's business and for anyone to suggest otherwise is equivalent to driving by an accident and insisting they be told if someone died because it's their right as tax payers of that community.

Quote - However, We do notify previous buyers of products that have potential copyright/intellectual property issues.

Please note the word potential.
Renderosity is not a court and only a court of law can hand down a verdict on whether a product is truly in violation of anothers intellectual property.

Clint

Obviously if a merchant was banned for it, it was deemed by Renderosity to be more than "potential", otherwise why ban?
I haven't agreed with Blackhearted until now, but that is really a slap in his face as well as any other merchant in this community.

I'm tired and having a hard time articulating my thoughts so I hope what I've typed is clear

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 18:10

I just stated that it seemed all the arguements have been made and it was time to move on and let this thread die a natural death. I still feel that way. Continuing to post here when theres really nothing left to say is really going to turn this thread down the wrong road. There are opposing opinions on this and thats fine. People stated their views so lets move on. As for the Poser forum thread, the mods and coords in that forum will do what is appropriate for their area. Sandy and I are over this forum so that is why I am talking about this thread only. Stacey

Thanks for clarifying Stacey :)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=328

Thank you Clint:) Stacey

Obviously if a merchant was banned for it, it was deemed by Renderosity to be more than "potential", otherwise why ban? Because Renderosity has the legal right to refuse to do business with anyone they please, and if they feel that there are good enough reasons to exclude someone from the ranks of people they do business with, they stop doing business with them. I don't know about you, but I certainly stop doing business with people whose products or services are of questionable legality (or quality). bonni

clint - thanks for choosing to hammer home just how little you and renderosity care about us. any remaining loyalty that i had for renderosity just evaporated, permanently. frankly, i was an absolute fucking idiot for staying loyal so long in the face of how it has treated its merchants over the last 5 years.

Acadia, So what are you saying? Prevent people from talking about something? You know, we aren't children. We're adults and we enjoy discussing things, whether negative or positive. If it offends you, don't listen or comment on the thread. To say we CAN'T talk about it because it offends you means you are no better than religious conservatives who refuse to allow others to speak about a subject because it makes them uncomfortable. If you don't want to participate, go elsewhere. There are plenty of positive threads for you to join in. As it stands, we want to have our say. If you don't want to listen, then don't. But limiting the speech of others is the maneuver of fascists and dictators. I prefer to say as I wish. I think a lot of people here would as well.

"Thanks for choosing to hammer home just how little you and renderosity care about us." I think it's not a matter of how much Clint cares, but more likely, it is an issue of not wanting to be sued for libel.

with the amount of proof submitted, and the sheer amount of infringement notices under this merchant's belt, i dont see this as a potential infringement at all. while i by no means expected renderosity to announce that 'we have convicted umutov of copyright infringement', somehow i expected more after 5 years of loyally selling here than rosity publicly washing its hands of the entire issue, and thereby exonerating umutov. renderosity's public lack of support is a slap in the face.

I agree with Jeff. I've got the very strong impression that Clint would LIKE to say a lot of stuff, and possibly in extremely strong terms, but he feels rightfully constrained by his position and certain legal realities. What he believes and thinks privately are, I would bet, very much more strongly flavored than what he presents for public reading. I know if I were in his position (thank Deity, I'm NOT), I'd be much, MUCH more circumspect about what I say and how I say it. In other words, don't assume by a brief or bland response that Clint doesn't care or isn't privately furious or swearing under his breath or whatever. (I know I'd be swearing constantly in his position!) bonni

...and i apologise to clint and all of the people who read my previous angry post. i deeply felt that more public support by renderosity on the issue was warranted, and let my anger get in the way of my better judgement. cheers, -gabriel

I went back and read this thread in it's entirety. I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community. However it seems that I'm in the gross minority when it comes to feeling that way, so I bow to the majority. When I started this thread I had no idea that it would generate the types of replies that it did or result in hurt feelings. I knew that it wouldn't be a popular position with some, but I've never been one to fall into line and go along with popular opinion when I feel and believe something else. And I'm not afraid to butt heads with people who are at odds with my views. Again, I created this thread with good intentions in mind and am very sorry for the way the thread turned out and the hurt feelings that have resulted as a result of it. It was not my intent to cause discord and division and I wish to extend my sincerest apologies if I played a part in that result.

"I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community. However it seems that I'm in the gross minority when it comes to feeling that way, so I bow to the majority."

It shouldn't be a surprise, because most arteests are halfway between volatile and murderously volatile. ;)

Although you may be feeling "wrong" for starting a thread which helps to focus everyone's ill will towards one another, you really shouldn't feel bad about that, because it's gonna happen anyway, regardless of who's the catalyst.

Now, run along and sin no more. :)

Message edited on: 02/01/2006 00:29

I've got the very strong impression that Clint would LIKE to say a lot of stuff, and possibly in extremely strong terms, but he feels rightfully constrained by his position and certain legal realities. What he believes and thinks privately are, I would bet, very much more strongly flavored than what he presents for public reading. No impression here. I know Clint would like to say more. giggles at poor Clint Some of us remember dear clint before he gained his current position. And thank our stars we can now snipe at him publically when the occasion presents itself :) Of course, we also know that if he ever does succumb to the occasional temptation to step down and be a regular jow again, we're going to need a really fast means of transportation out of town or a REALLY big bouquet of roses... And for those who don't remember, Clint's a hell of a good merchant himself. Who, if memory serves me right, has been hit by this sort of thing himself. So he knows. THere's a lot of things that can be said about renderosity, and even Clint, that might not be flattering. But to say they aren't doing enough when it is essential they maintain their position above it all to do business effectively, well, that's a disservice to them. Personally, and yeah, this is going to sound weird coming from me, I think that Clint does the best possible job he can given the constraints within which he has to work. And he does it damn well, even when confronted with snarky merchants, sometimes nasty customers, heckling crazy gals, snarling bears, and all manner of strange folk basically giving him the heave ho. And all without enough due credit beyond a paycheck. Sounds like he earns his living.

And for those who don't remember, Clint's a hell of a good merchant himself. The first product I ever bought at Renderosity (back in 2000) was one of Clint's (and that product is a major part of the design of one of my current websites, actually). I think that Clint does the best possible job he can given the constraints within which he has to work. I agree. snarky merchants, sometimes nasty customers, heckling crazy gals, snarling bears, and all manner of strange folk basically giving him the heave ho You forgot "sarcatic premenstrual women who haven't had enough caffeine". Not that I'll admit to knowing anyone like that (let alone to being someone like tht ;-). bonni

I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community</> but, in this case, there was ALOT of very good information about hybrid clothing in the first thread. I would have loved more discussions along those lines. (Since my hybrids will work with a dynamic skirt/conforming top, but, try and add dynamic sleeves and my dresses explode.) you never know where you may find little bits of wisdom. why, in fact, even rubbernecking at a train-wreck, a bystander COULD learn abit about rescue techniques, or life saving methods, crash dynamic physics....gosh, all sorts of stuff!!!

Wow - Thanks for the kind words. Gabe - Thanks for the post buddy. :) Bonnie.. "The first product I ever bought at Renderosity (back in 2000) was one of Clint's (and that product is a major part of the design of one of my current websites, actually). " Wow! Which product is that? (smile) Just curious. I may not have the easiest job in the world but let me state that I truely love what I do and wouldnt trade it for anything. This community and the merchant base mean so much to me. Now - Back to your reqularly scheduled programming. :) Clint

I've had the pleasure of speaking with ClintH over the phone in the past.

He's a nice guy. Friendly, helpful, and he does his job -- and he does it well.

IMHO, the good folks here at Rendo run a website which enjoys a level of success that most webmasters & webmistresses can only dream about. The people who run this place are not stupid. Nor are they a bunch of unfeeling, mean, nasty greed-heads that care about nothing but money.

But they ARE a team of people (read: people just like you & me -- with lives & families of their own) who run a business. And they run it well.

Those individuals who hold "expert" opinions to the contrary might want to take yet another look at the numbers. And then give Clint a call. Maybe he'll share with you his secrets about how to succeed at this business. If you ask him nicely.

No: Clint can't usually say what he's actually thinking. But most of us can probably do a pretty good job of imagining it.

"People are innocent until proven guilty " That's lycnhin' talk 'round these parts.. What? Oh chill a bit..

I don't always agree with everything that Rendo does. And I've stated so publicly on a number of occasions.

I haven't been "lynched" for doing it yet.

Innocent? Innocent of what?

Online, most of the names have been changed to protect the innocent.......and to protect the guilty, too.

BTW - does anyone happen to know umutov's real name......? Wait a minute: don't answer that.........

Realize that we, as an audience and community can say MANY things that the staff of Rendorosity CANNOT say for fear of legal reprisals. smile Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.

Yup. Some retired sheriffs have their 6-guns parked on a peg by the door. Emeritus profs look lovingly at the walls of books. Former mods look at the well-chewed muzzle and rejoice in freedom of speech once again. ;^) Carolly Evil OverLady of the UnderDark

6-guns parked on a peg by the door And 'round these parts we have our 6-guns parked on jpegs by the door. (ducks and runs)

ouch! (I wish I'd thought of that!)

Wow! Which product is that? It's a horn pack, in .obj format! LOL! Back then there were no good unicorn horns anywhere, and yours were/are very nice (still use it, actually). The site is: http://bonni.net/unicorns/ (the big gold horn, that's yours!) bonni

LOL Deecey, ya keep em on jpegs just in case there's a tiff ? .. Sorry ...

LMAO!!!!!!!

And that .pnging sound you hear is the ricochet! :duck back behind the rock:

psd...gif it up...it's getting a lil too graphic now :)

But, but... we're just targa-shooting!

Bonni - Thats right. :) Sweet - That was one of the first product I ever did. Thanks for the support. ;) Clint

Oh okay...I get the pict..carry on :)

OMG ... What did I start in this thread? LOL I hope we come to some sort of resolution soon. (hides again)

me too...I'm almost rendered speechless :)

Looks like you .bum's made a good effort to .bmp off the original topic.

LMAO!!! Stop it! It's too tempting ... really! LOLOL

BTW ... no disrespect intended to any of those who posted their concerns in this thread. I think we were trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

Quite frankly I think it is becoming all too transparent but it should please some that the ambience of this thread is just a reflection of how silly we can be LOL. Kym

Well..we could have chosen another Path, or gone through different Channels, but this way keeps us in Line.It helps to Diffuse the situation,so I see no Point in changing now. 8 )~

You see,it really DOS bring us together.Next thing you know,we'll be planning a Renderosity picnic.I'll bring corn on the .COB and Sprite if nobody else wants to bring .DEM.

(Okay..that was reaching...lmao)

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 12:40

ROTFL! You peeps are crazy..

Tom, what is your point? I'm trying to render a conclusion, but your perspective is beyond my depth of view.

"but your perspective is beyond my depth of view"

That's "Normal"

Most folks, be they "global"or "local" "Seam" to "transform" into "variable groups" when it .com to these topics.

The "Scale" and magnitude of such subjects,can leave one feeling that they don't quite know where they fall in the "hierarchy".
In "Light"of everything "Compiled" here,I for one,can "C" the "output" of this discussion as a "positive" one

BTW,to those taking "Planes"to the picnic,I have "Maps" in case you find yourselves "Displaced" They are also written in different languages for those who need "Translation".

Don't forget to bring stuff to combat "worms"and "bugs".

In fact..the last picnic (I think it was the "Third Party") someone saw a "Python" So be careful. 8 )

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 21:01

... when it .com to these topics. Allright man, I'm giving you formal notice that this comment is unacceptable. And it's not just because it's better than anything I can come up with on such short...ummm... vertex.... I mean, notice. I'm filing a COMPLAINT! Harumph.

Arrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! This is as much fun as a roomful of cats and a single catnip mouse leaving leafy crumbs all over everybody and everything. :)= And when the mods come back, we'll all be sitting here grooming our paws with quiet attention and the best possible manners. Carolly