I've got both good and bad news.

First the bad news:
After a problem with my drive/disc (still not sure which), I've lost almost all the work I'd done on Pro-Render. This includes scenes, presets, renders, animations, and code for the interactive manual. I'd say in total, there's a good 75% of the work lost. I'm really not in the mood to go through all that again, so I've tried to salvage what I can from various other discs I'd fragmented over time.

Now the good news:
I still have the original 'scrap-manual' I used to add-to now and then when I'd started writing the manual the first time 'round. I've included it here, but I'm afraid it's 'far' from complete, and it's certainly no match for the interactive version I've lost (beleive me). Also surviving, is the scene file for the most recent render I posted on R'endo. Plus, I know I've got a backup of the "Moonlit Room" scene knocking around somewhere (I'll post it when I find it).

Anyway, like I said - I'm not going to start work on it again. So, I've decided to give-out what's left of the thing because I know there are people wanting to learn the product.

I've included the "scrap-manual" in this post in the hope you'll 'all' at least take the time to read it. I've done this to give you a rough idea of how Pro-Render works. If you think it's something you are able to learn then I strongly suggest you do so (anyone who learns this WILL have advantages over those that don't - period). However, if you don't think you can learn it, then PLEASE don't use up our bandwidth downloading the files I'll be putting-up over the weekend.

This is the URL I'll be uploading to over the weekend as I find and prepare the files
(Files WILL start to appear tommorow) :
http://downloads.pumeco.com/brand/pumeco/pro-render/

Here's the "scrap-text" which survived (Incomplete and basic without diagrams). Although this text only scratches the surface, if you combine it with the scene files I'll be uploading, a lot more will become clear. BTW, it's the rules section that's most important.

Please read and judge 'before' you decide to download.

Len.
(Beyond Angry)

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CONTENTS

Contents

Introduction

Copyright And Usage Restrictions
Product Name
Presets
Models

Installation
Macintosh
PC

Limitations, Bugs, And Workarounds
Nano Preview
Material Preview
Smoothing
Bump Mapping
Black Rendering
Booleans
Cube
Soft Shadows

Explanation Of Components
PR.br5
PR.mat

Synthesis Rules
Material Rules
Rule 1 : Diffusion/Ambience (DA) Synchronisation
Rule 2 : DA/Reflection Balance
Rule 3 : DA/Transparency Balance
Rule 4 : Reflection/Transparency Balance
Rule 5 : TOTAL/DA Balance
Rule 6 : BREAK-POINT
Environment Rules
Rule 1 : AMBIENT COLOUR
Rule 2 : SKY DOME COLOUR
Rule 3 : SHADOWS
Light Rules
Rule 1 : SHADOW AMBIENCE
Rule 2 : SHADOW COLOUR

Tutorials
Tutorial 1 : A Humble Beginning
Tutorial 2 : High Velocity
Tutorial 3 : Moonlit Room
Tutorial 4 : Beautiful Curves

The Productive Process

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Introduction To Pro-Render-Xtreme (PRX)
FDRI (Full Dynamic Range Image)
Volume Ambience (Glowing Objects)
Advanced Material Simulation (Plastic, Porcelain, Rubber, Skin-Over-Blood etc...)
Simulated Capabilities
Sub-Pixel Effects (Camera/Light Dependant Surface Finishing)
Secondry-Halo (Clear-Coat Metallics, Gloss-Over-Matte etc...)
Soft Scattering (Extra-Smooth Scattering)

COPYRIGHT AND USAGE RESTRICTIONS

Due to the nature of this product, Pumeco must impose various levels of copyright and usage restriction:

PRODUCT NAME
PRO-RENDER is a trademark of Pumeco, and may not be used under any circumstances other than to reference the Pumeco product.

PRESETS
You may distribute any presets you generate using PRO-RENDER.
You may not distribute any presets included with the product, unless those presets are distributed as part of a scene where no attempt is being made to market or sell the scene, in whole or in part as PRO-RENDER or an equivalent product.

MODELS
You may distribute any models included with PRO-RENDER, providing those models are distributed as part of a scene where no attempt is being made to market or sell the scene, in whole or in part as PRO-RENDER or an equivalent product.

INTRODUCTION

Thankyou for choosing PR (PRO-RENDER), a refined TA (True Ambience) implementation of Global Illumination for the Bryce 5 series renderer.

PR is a form of reality synthesizer where parameters are defined by rules. To produce a PR render, you conform your renders to the PR synthesis rules provided in this manual. The manual is short and basic, with an aim to provide only essential knowledge in order to minimise any chance of confusion for beginners. If you require further assistance in understanding the basics of Bryce before digging into PR, then consider the range of freely downloadable PDF guides available from pumeco.com. Please read this manual thoroughly, no matter what your level of skill - and you'll master PR efficiently. It's important to realise that any form of synthesis, be it audible or visual, is something that needs to be adhered to 'strictly' if you're to master it correctly. PR is no different - and in order to "synthesize" reality in your renders with this product, you 'must' adhere to it's rules of synthesis. If you do this, your renders will take on photographic qualities that are unmistakably different to standard raytracing. PR synthesis is made up of synchronisation and balance, some of which are well known, whilst others are PR exclusive.

Pumeco wish you all the best in using this product, and hope it will open-up your mind and encourage further experimentation with the Bryce 5 series renderer.

It's time to see Bryce in a more powerful, more realistic light.
Enjoy PRO-RENDER.

INSTALLATION

MACINTOSH
...

PC
...

LIMITATIONS, BUGS, AND WORKAROUNDS.

While Bryce 5 is a well designed program, there are limitations and bugs which could damage your enjoyment of PR. This chapter will describe those limitations and bugs, as well as offer workarounds.

LIMITATION : Nano Preview
The Nano Preview will not allow you to see a true representation of your PR scenes. This is because PR makes use of Premium Effects, and the Nano Preview does not display Premium Effects. Please remember that the Nano Preview will not display a true representation of your PR scene.

LIMITATION : Material Preview
The Material Preview will not allow you to see a true representation of your PR materials. This is because PR makes use of Premium Effects, and the Material Preview does not display Premium Effects. Please remember that the Material Preview will not display a true representation of your PR material.

BUG : Smoothing
Imported geometry will not render smooth under purely ambient light.
WORKAROUND : Smooth the geometry in a modeller, using a subdivide method to make the facets smaller.

BUG : Bump Mapping
Bump mapping will not render under purely ambient light.
WORKAROUND : Add a weak, shadowless radial light source to any problem area.

BUG : Black Rendering
Imported geometry sometimes renders black under purely ambient light.
WORKAROUND : Save your geometry in various formats and/or reverse normals, before you import.

BUG : Booleans
Booleans will not render correctly under purely ambient light.
WORKAROUND : Don't use Booleans, use imported geometry.

BUG : Cube
The cube primitive will not render correctly under purely ambient light.
WORKAROUND : Don't use the cube primitive, use the supplied replacement cube.

BUG : Soft Shadows
Soft shadows sometimes deactivate.
WORKAROUND : Click the Day/Night icon twice.

Please know that the limitations and bugs described above are not a fault of PR - they exist in Bryce 5.

EXPLANATION OF COMPONENTS

PR.br5 :
This is the default PR scene file, which sets up the renderer and environment needed to develop PR compliant scenes.

PR.mat :
This is the default PR material file, which contains the PR compliant default material.

PRX.br5 (PRX only) :
This is the default PRX scene file, which sets up the renderer and environment needed to develop PRX compliant scenes.

PRX.mat (PRX only) :
This is the default PRX material file, which contains the PRX compliant default material.

SYNTHESIS RULES

Synthesis rules fall under three distinct catagories: Material - Environment - Light

MATERIAL RULES

RULE 1

Diffusion/Ambience (DA) Synchronisation.
DIFFUSION and AMBIENCE (DA) must be in synchronisation.

To demonstrate RULE 1, here are some sample PR materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 1 (DIFFUSION and AMBIENCE are in synchronisation).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why A and B are wrong, then you understand RULE 1. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 1 before you proceed further.

RULE 2

DA/Reflection Balance.
DA must be in balance with REFLECTION. As REFLECTION level increases, DA level must decrease.

To demonstrate RULE 2, here are some sample PR materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 2 (DA and REFLECTION are in balance).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why A and C are wrong, then you understand RULE 2. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 2 before you proceed further.

RULE 3

DA/Transparency Balance.
DA must be in balance with TRANSPARENCY. As TRANSPARENCY level increases, DA level must decrease.

To demonstrate RULE 3, here are some sample materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 3 (DA and TRANSPARENCY are in balance).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why B and C are wrong, then you understand RULE 3. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 3 before you proceed further.

RULE 4

Reflection/Transparency Balance.
REFLECTION must be in balance with TRANSPARENCY. As REFLECTION level increases, TRANSPARENCY level must decrease.

To demonstrate ,RULE 4 here are some sample materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 4 (DA and TRANSPARENCY are in balance).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why A and C are wrong, then you understand RULE 4. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 4 before you proceed further.

RULE 5

TOTAL/DA Balance.
The TOTAL of RULE 2 + RULE 3 must be in balance with DA. As TOTAL level increases, DA level must decrease.

To demonstrate RULE 5, here are some PR materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 5 (TOTAL and DA are in balance).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why B and D are wrong, then you understand RULE 5. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 5 before you proceed further.

RULE 6

BREAK-POINT
The balances of rules 2, 3, 4, and 5 can be further adjusted ONLY in a 'subtractive' manner, providing the BREAK-POINT of 100% is not broken.

To demonstrate RULE 6, here are some PR materials. Study the settings of these materials for a moment and you should notice RULE 6 (BREAK-POINT is not broken).

TWO OF THEM ARE WRONG
If you understand why A and D are wrong, then you understand RULE 6. If you do not understand, please re-read RULE 6 before you proceed further.

ENVIRONMENT RULES (Sky Settings)

RULE 1

AMBIENT COLOUR.
The AMBIENT COLOUR of the environment must remain pure black (RGB 0 0 0) at ALL times.

RULE 2

SKY DOME COLOUR
The SKY DOME COLOUR of the environment must remain pure black (RGB 0 0 0) at ALL times.

RULE 3

SHADOWS
The SHADOWS of the environment must remain at 50% (50) at ALL times.

LIGHT RULES

RULE 1

SHADOW AMBIENCE
The SHADOW AMBIENCE of all diffuse lights must remain at 50% (50) at ALL times.

RULE 2

SHADOW COLOUR
The SHADOW COLOUR of all diffuse lights must remain pure black (RGB 0 0 0) a ALL times.

TUTORIALS

TUTORIAL 1 : A HUMBLE BEGINNING

Load up the PR.br5 scene file, and delete the ground plane object.
Now, before you go any further, be sure to save the scene under a NEW file-name (IE: Tutorial-1) to avoid accidental overwriting of the original PR file.

Done that? Then let's get started.

Create a sphere.

Enter materials Lab.

Select the PR materials group.

Select the PR-DEFAULT preset.

Apply the edit.

Render the scene

Hmmm... not exactly awe inspiring is it? The problem here is that light rays are hitting our sphere equally from all angles, and because there are no other objects in the scene, no shadowing is being created. To demonstrate, let's add another object to our scene, we'll add a ground plane.

Create a ground plane.

Enter materials lab.

Select the PR-DEFAULT preset.

Apply the edit.

Render the scene.

Aha - much better! Light is no longer hitting the sphere equally from all angles, because the ground plane is 'effecting' the light rays that reach the lower area of the sphere. It's important to note here, that I said "effecting" the light rays, as opposed to actually obstructing them - which is what would have happened if we had used standard Bryce raytracing.

Try to understand the above examples, which demonstrate how light-rays have behaved in this tutorial.

Right, let's adjust the brightness of the light. There's no point in looking for a light to select and adjust - because there isn't one. The light in our scene is known as AMBIENT light, and you didn't have to add it because it's an essential component in PR's synthesis, and therefore enabled by default (TRUE AMBIENCE is enabled by default in PR, and must remain active at ALL times).

There are two parameters for adjusting the brightness of AMBIENT light, and the parameter you use, will depend upon the sky-mode you're using.

You've probably guessed what's coming next - yes, you would also use these same parameters to adjust the colour of your light, not just it's brightness, as demonstrated in the example above.

Ok, so now we're gonna make a little more use of our scene, so we'll start by resetting most of what we've altered so far. First of all, delete the sphere, but do not delete the ground.

First we'll reset the environment. You can reset to the default PR environment at any time by selecting the first sky memory, which is there to make life easier when learning and using PR.

Now we'll reset the camera. You can reset to the default PR camera position at any time by selecting the first camera memory, which is also there to make you're life easier when learning and using PR.

Let's add a tree to the scene.

Now, go into the materials lab and give both the foliage and the trunk the DEFAULT-PR material.

Render your scene.

Not bad, not bad at all. But we could use a little sun-light to give the scene a little more impact.

As we're currently just visualising, let's stick to greyscale, and give our sun a pure white colour (RGB 255 255 255).

Render your scene, and you should have plenty of reality in your lighting. In effect, you're using two kinds of lighting in one scene. The first is TA which is fueling your scene with AMBIENT light. The second is the sun, which like every other light-type in Bryce, is know as DIFFUSE light.

Now you may well be wondering, what would the scene look like without the AMBIENT light. Well, you can find out VERY quickly by swiching off TA altogether.

Now render your scene, and you'll soon discover you've ended up back to basic raytracing, and its equally basic qualities.

Anyway, let's say a fond farewel to basic raytracing for now, and put PR back in business by switching TA on again.

Now, because we're still visualising under white light (which is always a good idea), we can start adding a little colour to our scene. Let's start by making the foliage green.

Now because you're very well behaved, and you've learnt PR's synthesis rules, you will have no problem in creating a PR-compliant green material for your foliage will you? If you're one of those who simply couldn't be bothered to learn them, then tough! I'm gonna be cruel to be kind; you cannot use PR without learning it's synthesis. To get you started, let's break this down for a moment - and look at what's required in a logical manner. We want our foliage to be green, so we'll start with RULE 1 (Diffusion/Ambience (DA) Synchronisation), meaning if we were to make the DIFFUSE colour green, we must also make the AMBIENT colour green. Then if you wanted say, a very slight reflection to the foliage, then you would need to follow RULE 2 (DA/Reflection Balance) as well as RULE 1. Those rules are there to be learnt - and learnt they must be! If you haven't learn them, go back to SYNTHESIS RULES and learn them.

Complete this tutorial by adjusting the trunk, ground plane, Master-Illuminator and Sun colours. Here's mine;

TUTORIAL 2 : HIGH VELOCITY
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TUTORIAL 3 : MOONLIT ROOM
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TUTORIAL 4 : BEAUTIFUL CURVES
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THE PRODUCTIVE PROCESS

We all have our own ideas of productive workflow within Bryce. However, there are situations where lack of speed can destroy workflow through being a bar to creativity. Well, PR is one of those situations - and in order to get along with PR, it needs to be realistically accessible. To this end, here's a few tips that'll hopefully make the learning curve a less tedious, and not so time-consuming experience.

1 : You can return to the default PR Environment or Camera view at any time, by selecting the respective memory. Every scene supplied with PR uses the first memory preset of both Sky and Camera for your convenience (the memory directly below the Bryce default).

2 : Keep a copy of the DEFAULT-PR material in memory whenever possible by copying it into memory from an object you already have it applied to. Simply apply the DEFAULT-PR material to an object (the ground plane already has it applied by default), then use the COPY MATERIAL option from the EDIT menu in order to store it to memory. This is handy when designing and visualising a scene with PR. Having this material to hand allows you to paste it at will, onto individual or groups of objects using PASTE MATERIAL. This can be a real time-saver, and should be used whenever possible.

3 : You can adapt a scene quickly, by selecting ALL objects and applying the DEFAULT-PR material preset to them (as described above). After you've composed your scene using the DEFAULT-PR material on 'every' object, you can then select the individual objects, and edit their materials (using the PR rules you've learnt, of course) in order to complete your scene.

4 : You can test-render time consuming areas of your image quickly, by following these steps:
1 : Switch the RPP to a low setting.
2 : Render only the first pass, then interrupt the render.
3 : Switch the RPP setting back to the required render quality setting.
4 : With the first pass still visible, plop-render only the required area.

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But if it's soo wonderful like you said, Isn't it worth trying to start over again?

and you didn't have a more complete backup than a 75% loss? That must really suck.

Hey cut the guy some slack. He's been working on this for several years. Anybody who has been working on a big project for several years will want some time off, especially if they have lost their backups of over 75 % of their work. I know this from experience. I was working on a computer game for 2.5 years when both my hardrive died and 3 of the 4 dvd backups became unreadable. Worse yet my firewire 120 gig hard drive (backup five) became corrupted and had to be reformatted. I'm sure that once Bryce 6 is out and Len has a chance to play with it he may reconsider his position on reviving Pro-render. Personally, while I have not had a chance to read the manual Len has posted, I do intend to read it and look forward the stuff he will be posting later. Sorry for your loss man. Best wishes. David

@kimpe It 'was' wonderful when it was able to be presented the way I intended it to be (interactively with animated demonstrations). It's not the same doing it this way, and will be a lot harder for some to get their head around it - but there's no other option (at least it's out there in some form). @drawbridgep Yeah - it does. @Pedrith Cheers, but unless Bryce 6 offers compiled scripting, I won't be adapting PR for it. @EveryoneReadingThis First files are up already (standard files), and at least one demo scene to come (hopefully more). Just incase this turns into another flame-war; it's free, I'm not working on it now, and therefore couldn't give a toss of opinion! Len.

Very cool, thanks Pumeco!! I'll have time later this evening to start playing with all this. ;oD "...but unless Bryce 6 offers compiled scripting..." -I REALLY hope we something like that for B6! That alone would give us SO much in flexibility/abilties. MY fingers are crossed. AS

I for one have always been on your side about Pro Render as you well know I have always told everybody to cut you some slack... I appreciate what you have done for the Bryce community as a whole I I really think you shoud develope PR further... Thnaks Len.

"The SHADOWS of the environment must remain at 50% (50) at ALL times." Len, how do you attain pure black shadows in this case?

Everyone has their preferences, but why would you want to have a pure black shadow? They don't exsist in the real world. But, neither does rust exsisting absolutely everywhere in the world, yet in my scenes....lol. AS

"...why would you want to have a pure black shadow?
They don't exsist in the real world."

Think about that for a while and get back to me. ;-)

Personally I like my shadows at 35 with 15 % soft.

@AgentSmith My fingers are crossed as well; scripting is great no matter what, but "compiled" scripting is even better from a developer point of view ;-) @foleypro I know dude, cheers! BTW, you don't have a choice, you must stick to the synthesis rules for shadows ;-) @PJF Peter, you have never seen a "pure black" shadow, they don't exist :-) To understand this, you need to consider what the visual aspect of a shadow consists of: Colour, Brightness etc. OK, let's say the ground was 50% gray and a shadow is cast upon it. Now, visualise what it would look like, and then ask yourself; How would I go about darkening that shadow? You might be tempted to adjust the shadow setting to 100% but that would be way off in the reality stakes, because in the real world, a shadow does not have it's own substance - it's a product of other phenomena. In other words, the shadow must not be controlled directly because it is controlled naturally, by both the amount of light and of the colour it's being cast upon! PR uses the same real-world principle; very dark shadows can only be obtained upon dark colours under low lighting conditions. I hope that makes some kinda sense! Len.

"Peter, you have never seen a "pure black" shadow, they don't exist" They do exist and I have seen them very often. So have you. Think about it.

Still thinking....nope, never seen one, lol. You would need to live on a planet with absolutely no radiosity. I've seen photos to where the contrast was made so high to have blackish shadows, but none in real life. Even if the real world shadow was exremely dark, radiosity would not allow it to be 0,0,0 rbg black. AS

just a thought..I really hate to see anyone lose that much time and effort. If you were going to make a commercial product out of this, I'd seriously consider sending the drive to a data-recovery service. Sure it's an arm and a leg, but what is the time value of what you've done so far?
Unless the mechanics are completely shot (i.e., the cylinders wouldn't turn at all), they can be recoverd. I've been in the Computer repair business for 19 years, and I've seen everyone have this problem sooner or later (it's how I found out that laying a floppy physically on a Hard drive would render it a coaster in no time..;) Heck, I've even see tape drives corrupt server backups. So don't feel bad about that part.
Give it a rest, take some time for other things, then go back to it. I think you'll find that the 2nd go-round will go a lot faster, since you've solved most of the logic programs, etc.
I've seen you have a lot of passion and enthusiasm about this program over the years, and I've been one of those waitign to see what the fuss was all about. Hope this isn't the last we hear of Pro-render. 'Sides, I want to see the look on..'nuff said..;)

Hi Len... I, as Foleypro is, am and have been behind you with Pro-Render too. I am sorry to hear about the loss of your data. Thanks for sharing what you have left with us. I will certainly be delving into it for sure. I hope that this doesn't turn into another flame war. I think we should all be appreciative of the work you put into this and your willingness to share it with us. I am hoping that you will with time get back to developing PR further. Cheers and Many Thanks Len. Wade

" Still thinking....nope, never seen one, lol." look at the NASA moon landing pictures again ;)

Perhaps, AgentSmith, a bit like the drunk at night - you're looking for the key under the light because it's the only area you can see. ;-)

If you've been in a room with no windows and switched the light off, then you've 'seen' a totally dark shadow (you're in it). If you've ever looked into a deep cave then you've seen a totally dark shadow.

Not all circumstances provide "radiosity". Dark shadows are more common than you suggest.

Ahhhh yes

The above scene is lit by one radial light. The sky is black, and there are no walls to provide any bounced light. No light falls behind the block because the block is opaque and the only light in the scene can't get there. There's a beach ball behind the block, but you can't see it because it's in a totally dark shadow.

Bryce renders this correctly because the shadow level is set to maximum - 100.

Now the ground behind the block is partially lit. And so is the ball. There'd be no reason you should be able to see these in a real world equivalent to this setup (you can try it at home ;-)).

Note how the unlit portions of the block (the sides and top) are so much darker than the ground immediately behind. This is unrealistic.

It's not my intention to sidetrack Len's Pro-Render thread onto apparently minor technical issues, btw. Unless Len can persuade me with further information, I think the "SHADOWS of the environment must remain at 50% (50) at ALL times" rule is a big limitation to Pro-Render.

*"look at the NASA moon landing pictures again" I said/meant the real world, as in on our planet. If I do a landscape of the moon with no atmosphere, than sure, I'll use very darker, harder edged shadows. *"why a shadow setting of anything other than 100 is wrong" Lol..I never use 100. Never will, its just not real-world realistic, never will be, and I have tried to always stay away from anything that is going to make a scene look more like kiddie "3D" than real-world. Check out what ANY professional/working artist has to say about pure black shadows in 3D. *"If you've been in a room with no windows and switched the light off, then you've 'seen' a totally dark shadow" Nah, not even then. Yet, if that room was painted with a flat black paint, I mean every wall, the floor and the ceiling, AND you were dressed from the top of your head to your feet in black, then yes, lol...you would have a pure black shadow, because ONLY then would you have the possibility of NO radiosity, and then you could have pure black. PJF - your first pic; "and there are no walls to provide any bounced light" - the ground around the block would bounce light back and forth from the back of the block. The center of your shadow would be dark enough for the untrained human eye to call black. PJF - Your second pic - that's just a horrible Bryce problem, and its always haunted me and pissed me off to NO end. But in almost all other scenes, you'll never really notice it. Yet, this absolutely needs fixed in B6.0, period. Again, all I'm talking about is the REAL world, NOT Bryce's limited world, and I'm talking about ON planet Earth, lol. Unless your on the moon, pure black shadows look like crap. AgentSmith

" *"look at the NASA moon landing pictures again"

I said/meant the real world, as in on our planet. If I do a landscape of the moon with no atmosphere, than sure, I'll use very darker, harder edged shadows."

disagree. it IS real world. ok it's not here 'on earth' but it is real. I won't go into the limitations of the system of pumeco's as he has presented tho, only to note it is very limited in application.

Message edited on: 02/11/2006 21:33

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who knows?..the Shadow knows..;)

Oh, I agree, its absolutely real, just not what you normally will always see walking around outside during daylight. But, the atmosphere can be a crazy place for colors. I've seen blue shadows. Lol, no...not pure blue shadows. ;o) AS

AS is right, the moon is not real.

And I've seen yellow shadows. Really yellow, like some one drew it in highlighter. Here on earth. In my house.

A fun trick is to paint the inside of a box with a lid a bright colour (we had orange), cut a small hole in the side, and ask people what colour the inside is. When you look through the hole, it is black (completely black, rgb 0,0,0). Lift the lid so there is light in there... colourful! (I know, completely OT now, but still a fun trick).

I wonder if within a program that can calculate radiosity, if people make their shadows 100% black? Makes sense to do so, since radiosity could calculate the bounced light that diffuses the shadows...(I'm assuming) I've GOT to sit down and learn how to use any 3rd party rendering app... AS

"Yet, if that room was painted with a flat black paint, I mean every wall, the floor and the ceiling, AND you were dressed from the top of your head to your feet in black, then yes, lol...you would have a pure black shadow, because ONLY then would you have the possibility of NO radiosity, and then you could have pure black."

I thought radiosity was about how light is diffused from a surface. Thus, if you went into a room that had no light source illuminating its interior, then there'd be no radiosity and no colour and hence it'd be all black? I thought this would be the case no matter what colour the room was painted in (as the paint doesn't give off any light on its own... unless its phosphorescent).

OT but vaguely related - In Port Arthur (an old penal colony in Tasmania thats now just a pile of ruins and a tourist attraction) they used to have this room underground that had a double door (sort of like an airlock setup) and they'd put people down there as punishment - when I toured there, once they closed those two wooden doors, there was no light in that room... things looked damn black.
edit - thanks pumeco for all this info - hopefully will have some time to play with it :)

Message edited on: 02/12/2006 02:12

Yeah, I kinda TOTALLY missed PJF's point that there was no light in the room, somehow I read it as there being a small light source included, I believe I was looking at PJF's pics, and reading the sentence in the OTHER post, lol. Yup, the absence of light, is the absence of color. AS

"I see a red door and I want it painted black No colors anymore I want them to turn black"

rolling stones, paint it black, from the aftermath album, 1966.

Tour of Duty was an aweseom show (Paint it Black was its theme song)

AgentSmith:

"PJF - your first pic; "and there are no walls to provide any bounced light" - the ground around the block would bounce light back and forth from the back of the block. The center of your shadow would be dark enough for the untrained human eye to call black."

Fair point (though you overstate the case for bounced light from the ground in this instance), and it's frustrating that my little set failed to illustrate my point. I'll adapt it to make it unambiguous.

Lol nah, point taken, belive me. AS

Either Peter's been at that cheap Tesco beer again, or I've downed too much Stolichnaya ;-) Well I've thought long and hard about this, and I still stand by what I said; that you can't see "pure black" shadows, and they don't exist! So here goes my attempt to convince you using two different tactics (SEE and EXIST) TACTIC 1 : You can't SEE a pure black shadow. We all know that in order for a shadow to be visible, there needs to be a source of light. Now, let's say the surface colour the shadow was cast upon, started at 50% grey. Picture this, and then change the colour to say 25% gray and the shadow will be darker. Now, take the sufrace colour down to just 1% grey, and you will have the darkest shadow possible under 'that' situation. Now, go all the way and reduce to 0% grey (black), and you'll SEE no pure black shadow. TACTIC 2 : Pure black shadows do not EXIST For a shadow to be pure black, it would need to be cast upon a pure black surface by a source of ligh emmitting NO light whatsoever! In reality, there's no such thing as a source of light that emmits NO light (it would be void as a light-source). To this end, the darkest shadow obtainable in the real world (and in PR) is from a light-source of minimum intensity cast upon a pure black surface ;-) The balances of PR are 'tuned to reality' (as close as can be). So rest assured, providing the material surfaces are created following the rules, PR will generate a shadow with accurate colour/intensity (I hope). Thanks to those who support this, and for the suggestions. I'm sorry I've had to lay it out to you like this, but there's far too lost. I'm being able to recover the odd file here and there, but the manual is a total no-go area of the disc. I'm going to try and build some scenes that will each demonstrate a particular rule and different scene abilities - that's the best way to go about it. If I do, I'll stick it on the Rendo MarketPlace and hopefully get something out of it that way. Don't give up on this, once you grasp it FULLY, you'll have a very big smile on your face! Len.

AgentSmith:
"PJF - Your second pic - that's just a horrible Bryce problem, and its always haunted me and pissed me off to NO end. But in almost all other scenes, you'll never really notice it. Yet, this absolutely needs fixed in B6.0, period."

No, this is how low intensity shadows in Bryce work. To get shadows of less than 100, Bryce lets light shine through opaque objects!

Hey! How dare you post so soon after my explanation :-P Len (Read post 38)

pumeco:
"For a shadow to be pure black, it would need to be cast upon a pure black surface by a source of ligh emmitting NO light whatsoever!"

Len, absolute rubbish. Cheap vodka has rotted your brain. You should drink cask strength, single malt whisky if you wish to think clearly. ;-)

(This is much more fun than finishing setting up on a new hard disk which is my other task for the day)

Oh yeah, explain yourself sir! BTW, if you wanted to create the space scenario, you need to remember that ambient light is going to be just about non-existant, and there would need to be a diffuse light-source in the PR scene: If you do that, you will get the result you're describing ;-) Len. (T'is major fun though - I agree)

...oh yeah, and Stolichnaya is proper Vodka made in Russia! Len. (Not cheap)

Ahhh, but that's not caused by PR, that's a Bryce thing only the coders can fix. And anyway, in answer to the original question of how such shadows are obtained. My pitch on that would have to be; PR will give you VERY dark shadows where they should be, and likewise, not where they shouldn't :-)

Attached Link: http://downloads.pumeco.com/brand/pumeco/pro-render/

pumeco
"Oh yeah, explain yourself sir!"

A pure black shadow is simply an area of a surface that has no light falling on it. It doesn't make any difference what the diffuse reflectance value of that surface is, if no light falls on it then it won't be illuminated - period. There can one light or a hundred in a situation, but if the illumination from those doesn't reach a particular surface - it'll be pure black.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I really don't think there's such a thing as a pure black shadow. I think it's totally impossible for the reasons I pointed out in post 38. You have me thinking though - I know it's wise to keep an open mind ;-) Len.