Hello, I have been playing with Carrara SSS feature and I'm quite happy with some of the results I have got but there is a problem I am having with my figure. The figure is a custom V3 imported as OBJ file (but I get the same result if I import her as pz3) and, as you can see from the attached pic, when I apply the SSS all the different body parts are clearly visible. Does anyone have any suggestion about how to avoid/resolve this problem?

Thanks,
As Shanim & Siliphiel

you don't just "throw" the SSS on, you have to adjust the settings of it to fit your material
click on SSS in the tree, and you'll see many settings

carrara texture room is a bit more complicated than poser, wish it had nodes
would make my materials smaller :)

if you want fake SSS, theres a thread around 4 months back, i converted realskin best i could
but ofcourse nothing is as good as true SSS, i'd suggest reading the manual atleast :)

 

I do hope this thread continues. I am really interested in working with SSS for Poser figures but am totally lost as how to even start.

Is there a link to your thread anxcon?

cheerio  lululee

Hello and thanks for the answer but perhaps I didn't explain clear enough what I was concerned about.

I have studied and played with Carrara material settings and are fairly happy with the SSS results I have got so far, the one in the pic was an exaggeration to better show my actual problem which is not how the SSS looks but that the various model parts (shins, legs, hip) are clearly visible when using SSS.

The pic I have attached should better explain what I want to avoid: it's the gray areas that match the zone where a body part ends and another starts, it's those that I want/need to get rid of.

Thanks,
As Shanim & Siliphiel

SSS works best on objects that have no openings.  One solid piece is the way to go.

Shonner,

What about your procedural SSS shader? Does it need to be 1 solid piece. Also your outstanding gallery image with anything goos. 1 peice too? That  is a very nice shader.

cheerio  lululee

Actually, I have found pieces are ok with shader domains. I choked Carrara last night with too many texture maps, but let me see if I can put something up. The sss settings themselves do need to be changed greatly depending on the situation tho.

Ok here is one done quickly, showing the arm area not completed. This means you have many shaders tho, which can be a management pain. Please someone develop a shader management plugin. I have officially asked mark and julien I believe. Eric? Don't want to have to start learning how to do that also.These are done with image maps. It takes time to get all the channels and maps with and understanding of how they work. But it is worth it. That and mucho ram. Seriously spend time in the manual(which only covers so much) and the program. You have to try many options. SSS is tricky tho. This is no gi...basic.

This gorgeous. I do hope someone creates an SSS shader product. I certainly will purchase it. It would be nice if it had skin  texture maps. We could always replace them without own.

For totally procedure ones we could use Dimension3D's  2nd Face to add the makeup options.

It is true. One can only learn so much, especially if we have other jobs.

cheerio  lululeee

Thank you. Just spot lights. Been learning basic lighting..no fancies. You can see the difference. I find just exploring one area is the key...you then get to really understand what you can do. I didn't get C5 til dec and the whole CG thing is new, but it's just fascinating. The texture map is from natasha by michelle, btw. It is free...here at rosity. I did redo the lips in the original map, too much gloss for me then I created highlight, bump, dis maps. It takes alot of tweaking...not something you want to do everytime. You would go mad. I have been playing w/ SSS on another project also. Like Shonner, have spent hours playing with just a hand. :lol:  Procedurals don't convey from program to program so that will always be a challenge. Once you start understanding Carrara...you will probably do the work in there. I really like the texture/light stuff and think I will probably start having to make my own textures maps :D However, I gotta get more ram! 1 GB cannot handle all that too well.

Just to clarify "pieces" might be a problem. Have only experimented so much. That is a cr2, via native. I haven't worked with pz3 and I don't use poser so I can't say there isn't a difference in the way the program perceives the file. However, some settings in SSS are gonna be a problem, depending on what you are doing.

Quote - Shonner, What about your procedural SSS shader? Does it need to be 1 solid piece. Also your outstanding gallery image with anything goos. 1 peice too? That  is a very nice shader.

My model was more than one piece.  So I had SSS turned off for those skin renders.  I tried shader domains on one whole model to apply different shaders, but Carrara treated each domain as a seperate object when rendered and SSS wasn't having any of that.

 

My plan now is to make body whole and just paint it in Hex 2.  Then use SSS on it.

Probably the domain issue is going to be a bit unpredictable, but sss in carrara has a bit of that anyway. I am finding the sss pretty much overrides other settings a bit too much. Mine are divided into sub-domains. I think better shader handling like grouping and an option to treat as one object or one domain would be very handy. Having no way to replace or group shaders and having to apply them all again is just nutty. I am finding C5 choking on lots of textures. I know memory will help, but I hope it resolves it. Seems like the page file climbs then doesn't come back down in these situations. Once it hits about 1700M it can stop responding. I have a gig. Maybe a leak. Maybe related to the way the texture cache is also being used.

As Shanim ,

The problem is simple. The refraction index and translucency are too low.  Where mesh densities change  or one ends and another begains the SSS is calculated at ratios to match. Also Carrara is funny lower numbers in some setting boxes actually make things stronger. A little SSS goes a long way.  Objects do not have to be solid or continuos to get proper SSS but the settings are variable according to light and object size. 

Here are a few  picture examples of my SSS setings.  I am using the same 3 point light in all 3 renders. One indirect in front 70%white a bulb in front on the floor golden 55% and a blue bulb back light at %70.

Soft SSS

Hard SSS

I apply the same SSS settings to the skin layers required.  If you go say 12 on tralucency and 8 on refraction index you will get problems (blow out and drop off) like you've shown because the SSS in each object section tapers in intensity with light direction valume ect. Like this warped Klien bottle example.

Which one do you personally like.  The hard setting or soft?  They both seem good to me.

 

I'm going to try your settings on my female's parts and see if the seams don't show.

Hi Shonner ,

I start with a soft setting and adjust it for my light rig and needs or goal.  I just built a blank shader with the soft SSS setings , added it to my material tray. Than I copy past on each skin node. Takes like 3 minutes to set up. Leave out eye parts nostrals . Unless you want to get fancy on the eyes. Here is a face shot with HDRI global on. Takes maybe 2 minutes to calculate than the render takes about another minute.

Were you using the same or different SSS settings for the head and body above?

The same , hard settings. There is a slight variation in color caused by light placement. If I raised the front bulb light the highlight and shadow will move back brightening the face. as the cutoff shadow is right below her chin.

I'm using the same SSS settings for my head and body and getting different colors that don't match.  It was worth a try though.  SSS really does need to have one solid piece for a female body for things to work right, instead of using different volumes of objects. 

opps  somethings wrong with your attempt. Heres another veiw. look Maaa No seems , or shadows . but there is skin color variation on highlight shadow ect.... Sub surface scatter does exactly that it changes the properties of material by angle of veiw and direction of light  and density of volume.

Heres one more for you Shoner. Nite:)

Attached Link: http://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_page_wrapper.cgi?forumid=215&page=http://www.creativecow.net/articles/monfort_ringo/sub_surface_skin/index.html

Ringo Monfort also put this tutorial up - there's some useful info to be found here.

Jrabbit's and Ringo's heads both suffer from composite skin.  Just like my figures do that have seperate head objects.  One though could just keep adding more and more lights to try and hide the fact, but then your skin ends up glowing orange as a result.

The best way is to use one complete body object (minus the eyes and teeth).  

Shonner ?

 Ringos example sure doesn't show him applying to the whole body so of
course there is an obvious seam deference.  That was an example of setup not final product. He has a final on Eovia's gallery. 

 I'm not sure the look your after ? My example
is harsh , I did not take a moment to edge blend the lips but that wasnt the question. I could normalize the gradient across the surface by raising my values. 
 That would make the skin more monotone from edge to center. Much less dramatic. simple adjustments in your SSS levels can make it fit the look  that fits you. We all have different concepts of what look makes our own personal style.
 

The original question was how come AS Shanim is getting those gray joints. The
answer is raise the refraction index and translucency to higher numbers. Clearly
there is no seam problem in my render.

Anastasis20 your example tests in your
gallery are super !!  

  Eovia says the algorithms for there SSS are based on the
same mathematics as the high end software. I believe this is accurate. Regardless
if you use a $4000 package or Carrara you can achieve the results your after if
you work with the software . Guys and Gals do it all the time with and without
solid models.

 Here are a few SSS examples of how much control we can get.  The bottle is a solid object , the lights
are the same 3 point in all renders. Note the harsh bottom on the top row right. The RI controls that blending.  you can see as you go through the row and I bump it down we get seamlike effects.The transluceny controls the depth and size of the highlight facing the light source and camera position. If we animate the object the SSS moves on the surface following the light and camera.

Try your render with just one light behind her with GI turned on.  Then you'll see seams if in fact you have multiple body parts and have the same SSS values assigned to each.

Opps

As Shanim is telling us about an apple and you're showing us oranges unfortunately.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2463500&ebot_calc_page#message_2463500

Hi jrabbit (thanks), The skin texture tests were done in Carrara 4 before there was SSS. The link goes to a thread where I illustrated some of the tricks I used to get that shader set up - plus the fake SSS (bitmap in the glow channel multiplied by red colour, use the texture map brightness slider to adjust the intensity. I think it was roughly the same time as Shonner was working on his procedural skin shader - a great example of how to mix things together & how complex a shader Carrara can create. Mine is more bitmap based, but all the mixers are procedural. And Gwynhale also developed a good looking procedural skin shader around that time as well. Skin shaders are one of those CG things that turn up every so often for any 3D software. And now its SSS turn - good thing too, the manual isn't much help beyond a brief description of the functions. I'm still experimenting with incorporating SSS with I've put together so far.

As Shanim, could you show us what it looks like at the intensity you would normally use? You did say it was an exaggeration so we could see it. I use Miki & Koji and only have to worry about the texture seam where the neck joins the body - I've designed some dynamic clothing for both & and they all have high collars so I can't see if it does it to those figures. I'll try a nude render and see if it happens to me as well, I'll let you know what happens.

Quote - Gwynhale also developed a good looking procedural skin shader around that time

I remember Gwynhale's skin.  Great stuff.

Hi Shoner, 

Not at all trying to show oranges. My silly chart just simply shows how increasing settings on the SSS change the surface look. The extreams high and low. The top row clearly shows the bandnig increases as SSS is jacked higher.

  this front render is full GI on there is a light in back and i'm using hdri as well. Still no seems. What is important as with any render is how the lights are set. Again SSS responds to light color , intensity, and placement. In fact the 2 tone klien bottle is just an orange SSS on a green phong shader. If I use a red light the SSS highlights  will show nice orange , but a blue light will bring out the green base color for example.

First I choose my lighting. Next import the character with texture maps cr2 or pz3. Add the same SSS settings to each skin node. Leave the texture map settings alone. Make sure to use a darker SSS color , i'm using deep red. Bright colors will over bloom the SSS. Do a test render. If its to strong either lower the lights or raise the #'s  on the SSS settings. For a contunuous mesh The SSS settings must match and the RI cant be set to low.

The settings are not carved into stone. As you can make a SSS shader that will look different on 2 identical objects of different size rendered in the same scene. Thats what the scale setting is for. But I usually ignore it and build my shader to fit the object and lighting. If I ran into the problem you have not overcome I would adjust the diffuse and RI to fit the lights and the scene. If Diffuse is to high than the bright tansmitted areas will be over kill , if RI is to high than the end of an object part opposite light has a more abrupt dark band. These settings have to be balanced with the light. You will get the same bad results if its a solid object or a group if you go to high. just look at the pink klien bottle thats solid but as I jack up the SSS the banding gets really strong.

This is really simple not a bug or problem. simply observation and adjustment. You dont need much SSS to get some color in the skin without going to the extream you make the object so translucent the polygon density begins to reveal itself at its ends.  Than proclaiming it doesnt work :)

Anastasis20 yeh I remember that. I've been using Carrara from when it was raydream. I own lightwave as well for 7 years. Really dont use it anymore as Carrara will get you to the same places just different roads.  Plenty can be learned from brazil , vray max maya forms that can be incorporated into carrara.

anyway where beating a dead horse.  It does  works very easy.

The sss really does have a lot to it. I was doing experiments isolating each setting and they do really make a diff. It's amazing how many ways you can change it. How much refraction are you using jrabbit? You are likely to only deviate your settings only slightly if at all tho. Only certain domains this would really make sense with. I suppose it is like any lighting it can get bad real easy. So far I have not been having any pieces issues. I did find a little goes a long way.

As Shanim, what method did you use to import your figure into Carrara?  TransPoser or Native?  I imported just now using Native and then set SSS the same for each skin shaders (head, neck, scalp, forearms, legs, hands, feet, lips, and the like).  No seams when rendered.  This was a Poser 6 figure that Carrara 5 needed the Runtime folder path for to import it in native mode.

Anyway... the resulting figure imported into Carrara is a figure whose body is made up of "one complete mesh" with different skin shaders pointing at different UV maps on it.  This is why SSS works for jrabbit's figure because his figure is one volumetric object which SSS loves.  I'm rendering a Victoria 3 figure now on my sloowwww P3.  Her eyes take forever to render.  I'll post pics.

No SSS.

Strong SSS shows no faults in this object.  Carrara loves this mesh.

I imported again using TransPoser this time.  SSS worked fine, though dragging the SSS setting of one parametric map to the many other parametric map shaders in TransPoser's layers list was a killer.  Importing the figure as an OBJ and then applying the same skin shader to the body parts resulted in seams and different scaled volumes using the same SSS values showing different SSS output.

LOL All righty than. Yes it works. No shoner my figure render was vicky 3 imported as pz3. It does not need be solid as finally enough people agree.  Thanks Ren_mem. yes a little goes a long way ! My RI can go from .35-.60 on skin. depending on the light and look I want. .35 is strong .60 is light

Well Shoner I copy past in the shader tree my SSS node it takes less than 3 minutes to get through the tree.   Most of my renders use SSS on vicky steph or Aiko ,and  the girl. Without seams !  Look at my renders , Eve4 , patchouli ,light dance , mg2006 , mauriella ,ankaki,spacebiker. Each has a different skin quality depending on the look I was after but all use SSS in the way I have explained.

No seams because Carrara treats PZ3 figures as one mesh.  OBJ figures are another story.

For As Shanim:
Full agreement with Shonner - I rendered Miki (naked) to see what would happen and I got no seams at all. I imported the figure into Carrara using Transposer - that might be what you need, give that a try.

I think AS was deliberately doing that and appears based on some extreme settings as jrabbit said may just show seams. I have only used native and all are shader domains...not layers lists, but no seams unless I really alter the domains. The gradient usage there definitely seems key. Cause if you alter a domain, of course, it would look different and not blend naturally. Haven't really seen this with same reasonable settings tho.One thing is sure...the SSS is pretty complex and amazing tho.