I agree with Scarab. I am an CL employee, and I can tell you all, please...just wait and see what happens. Do some research and get the facts straight. I have been reading these posts all day long, and even though Steve Cooper & Larry Weinberg are out of the country, they are reading your posts as well. If you have a question to ask, Steve Cooper is listening and will answer. Just read his thread that he posted earlier, and be patient...it's almost 2 am in Germany so he won't be replying until tomorrow. And please don't dump us in the same category as MetaCreations. We are a small, humble company who really do care about their users. Please be patient with us. Karen Carpenter Editor, Curious Lab Report

Definitely agree on the 'warez use doesn't automatically equal lost sales' argument. Are they blasting off a twelve bore to swat a fly? I think what they should do is make life so good for registered users of Poser that anyone using a warezed copy is missing out on too much. Like a user community behind locked doors - can't get in without a legit registration number. MetaCreations had something like this with their 'BryceTalk' feature of Bryce4. BryceTalk wasn't interesting enough in and of itself, but the concept was there. If that place was like the best of all the online sites, just about everyone actively using Poser would want to be there.

I hope it isn't vbox they are planning on incorporating. I d/l'd a trial version of something from Symantec. I was worried about a virus, I think. They use vbox to somehow meter your trial. This program took over. Made my entire windows install unstable. Everytime I did a "file open" from any application, not just within the Symantec one, vbox would be called. Often it gave me the cryptic error "vbox injection error." No idea of when else this app was called or how this effected overall performance, but it must (I don't even run screensavers on my graphics machine). Took me months (finally with help on Experts Exchange--only question I ever needed to ask there) to trace this to the uninstalled Symantec app. Having gone through the registry and my hard disks for every ref to vbox, I finally stopped getting regular crashes. I still don't trust my windows install, and have been putting off the usual 2-3 days of reformat-reinstall on my work critical machine. I also no longer use the live update feature in Winfax, which I own, for fear that it reinstalls vbox. Never again will install something I suspect uses vbox. Never again will I buy Symantec, after buying their products for (10?) years for myself and corporations. I don't trust companies that treat the disease by killing the patient. I don't trust spyware. I don't trust people who don't trust me. CL will ensure my further graduation to Max/Character Studio, or a similar solution, if they are going to include something vbox like. Already they have ensured I will not be an early adopter. I'll be waiting to see what happens.

Honest users ability to use Poser will never be "cut off" unless A) Curious Labs goes out of business AND B) The hard drive you install it all becomes completely un-usable.<<< Neither event is impossible. Therefore, the minute such "security" procedures are instituted, my Poser days are done.

Folks here's the link to Steve Cooper's article on this in the CL Newsletter. This is not a big secret, and yes it is going to happen. But like Robert Belton said, it's nothing to get paranoid about.<<< Oh, I'm not paranoid. I'm p***ed. >>>Darth, considering how many warez copies were distributed in the first week of Pro Pack's release, it seems that some procedure is neccessary.<<< Agreed. But not one that will be such an inconvenience and potential disaster for legal users. And, having worked with a program that uses a similar system, it IS a potential disaster. No, I think CL just used up all the good PR it had built since taking Poser. And if I were the users of PPP, I'd be really peeved that to get a version that will actually work properly you have to sign your cyber-soul over via this slave system.

adh3d, locks keep honest people honest. This probably won't stop or slow down your hard core hackers and folks who get all their software from warez sites,...<<< Exactly. But what it will do is cause aggravation and inconvenience for the overwhelming majority of CL's customers who are honest. It is stupid PR policy. It is stupid security policy. >>>...but what it will do is stop people who don't realize they are doing anything wrong<<< No, what it will do is cost CL customers. I already use a program that utilizes a similar program. I use it because I am forced to by some of my clients. That is not the case with Poser. I have a choice. My choice will be no.

As will mine. Sorry CL, I'm already getting screwed over by 3 companies, I am NOT going to add you to the list. And I am not a new user, I STILL have my poser version 1.0. Marque

It has pretty much served it's usefullness here and there is a useful thread above that isn't speculation, hearsay and complaining. Thanks.

Karen, On the CL website it says that this is the way it's going to be. Why do you come in and say let's wait and see what happens? That's crap. It has been decided and it's a safe bet the company that will be taking care of it has a contract in their hands. I don't think anything that is said here is going to change a thing. And they are banking on the fact that they have ads in most of the graphics magazines that I read and that they will get a new customer base. Time to break out my Lightwave manuals and start learning in earnest. Wake up and smell the coffee people, THEY DON'T CARE. I brought this question up when they had him on the Spotlight thing on the front page of this site...and I don't believe I got an answer then either. I specifically asked about this type of copy protection. I wouldn't be so concerned if I wasn't watching companies go belly-up right and left. Marque

One enterprising young hacker actually made a legitimate living cracking the hardware dongle on 3ds Max, selling a software "patch" (read crack) to registered Max users who lost or had broken dongles, and to Mac users, since some macintosh parallel ports were incompatible with the dongle and the Sentinel drivers used. While the max programmers and the Sentinel people were sitting their with their ....errrrr ...."thought" in their hand, he sold his cracks to users who could prove to his satisfaction they had legitimate copies and complaints. I forget who he was, but I found him doing a simple search looking for some information on max. All i could think of at the time was how upset I would personally be if I or my business (if I owned one S) shelled out 3,500 US dollars and the security screwed me over and i had to pay another 500 bucks to make it work.

"The only downside I can see, and this has been pointed out by some observant Poser users, is that should we go out of business, there will be a need to maintain the server authorization so users who need to move the app onto a new system or a new hard drive can do so. Our solution? Well do what ever we can to ensure that Curious Labs is around for a very long time, preventing this scenario from ever occurring. As long as were smart about choosing features, partners, and projects, and make fewer mistakes than wise moves, well survive." Bottom line is simple - If CL goes down, then all your investment in Poser beyond 4.03 goes with them. That is NOT acceptable. Do you really want to see thousands of dollars of YOUR investment lost if CL goes down? And if this decision is an indication of decisions to follow, IMHO, CL will go down. I do not believe they are being "smart" in this decision, so Steve's assurance that as long as they are smart about "... choosing features, partners, and projects, and make fewer mistakes than wise moves, we'll survive." reads as a giant warning sign of the future. Now, there are those within this thread that will call me paranoid or will allege that I am acting before "...getting all the facts...," but with this decision CL has lost me as a customer. Poser 5 will not join Poser 1, Poser 3 and Poser 4. They've made their decision. I've made mine.

If you read the post above there will be an update that will make sure that you don't need them in that eventuality. That is why I said get all the facts.

It has pretty much served it's usefullness here and there is a useful thread above that isn't speculation, hearsay and complaining. Thanks.<<< In your opinion. This thread is DIRECTLY related to Poser and the thousands of dollars some of us have invested in it. Just because the apparent majority view and the concerns of the majority may not be in agreement with you does not mean it should simply be shunted aside for the PR convenience of CL and its unquestioning worshippers... IMHO.

If you read the post above there will be an update that will make sure that you don't need them in that eventuality. That is why I said get all the facts.<<< And such a "post" exists nowhere in the CL official release. In fact, Steve's statement seems pretty clear that they realize the possible disaster that would occur with a CL failure. So, until I see it on CL's website, it is NOT a fact.

CL will ensure my further graduation to Max/Character Studio, or a similar solution, if they are going to include something vbox like. Already they have ensured I will not be an early adopter. I'll be waiting to see what happens. FWIW, Max 4.0 and Character Studio 3 also incorporate a "software lock" in lieu of the hardware lock that was used in Max 3 and earlier. Looks as though software locks are the wave of the future. Denise

True .. it is my opinion but it is also riling people up about things that are explained in sucsinct terms elsewhere and that you fail to mention. Such as the update nuking the need for the contact upon the collapse of Curious Labs. I am not an unquestioning worshiper but I also like to give someone the option to explain themselves as Curious Labs is trying to do above without statements like "it will be useless." I am also tired or trying to read past this thread. What is so problematic about the approach? You e-mail, get a number, done. It doesn't really seem like some earth shattering event. If someone would like to start a thread numbered and ordered in C&D about what they find so awful about registering the software I would be happy to respond there.

That is because companies don't assume the worst and don't give pessimistic press releases. I mean you will never a standard press releasse from Coke staying 'In case we go under." You won't find that on Max or any other program website either.

True .. it is my opinion but it is also riling people up about things that are explained in sucsinct terms elsewhere and that you fail to mention. Such as the update nuking the need for the contact upon the collapse of Curious Labs.<<< Please show me the OFFICIAL, FACTUAL statement from CL that an update would be made available in the event of their demise that would "nuke" the security system? I saw no such statement from Steve at the CL site. If CL is going under, do you really think they will have the time or resources to impliment such a scheme? If you do, let us talk real estate. And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space? Ghost, I'm sorry if I am coming across as the frothing cyber-dog (German Shephard variety), but I think you belittle what many feel are very legitimate concerns and what many of us see as a complete and total betrayal.

That is because companies don't assume the worst and don't give pessimistic press releases. I mean you will never a standard press releasse from Coke staying 'In case we go under."<<< Then any statement made "off the record" or "unofficially" here regarding a "patch" to "nuke" the security system isn't worth the paper it is printed on. ;-)

I understand .. but to attack a program that has always shown good faith for a simple security procedure that most other companies have something similar to seems a bit tedious. If you look at the first question above there is a statement from Steve saying that. I just know that the entire curious labs tema worked really hard to keep patches coming when they were going under at Meta and I would liek to give them a little benefit of the doubt. A lot of the statements are simply hearsay. People aren't reading the facts or even the notices. And like I said. No software would put an official notice of "in case we go under" or "in case we are nuked." You say "And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space?" but that doesn't stop other companies from implimenting security proceedures, dongles, etc.

Hello Metacreations is still in business but their softwares are spreaded in many businesses. I bought all softwares from Metacreations but who really support them right now? WHo will support them in one year? it is the same thing with MIMIC, if my CD get scratched and LypSync does not exist anymore....I have to sau good bye to my software.

I understand .. but to attack a program that has always shown good faith for a simple security procedure that most other companies have something similar to seems a bit tedious.<<< Ghost, one final comment and then I'll let it rest before we get tired of each other. ;-) I don't think this is a "... simple security procedure..." At least not for those who, like me, are constantly upgrading their system(s). Since August of last year, I have went through four system upgrades. I am preparing for a fifth. That makes the type of security system CL is going to implement far from simple for me. In fact, it makes it an outright nuisance. And what of those times when the CL server is down? (Yes, believe it or not, the CL server has been down.) They have stated that it is "never" down for several days at a time. Well, @home basically said the same thing to me about their reliability, but for the past 5 days use of the system from where I live has been patchy at best. So, such promises are just air in the atmosphere to me. As is the promise of a "patch" or "update" to render the security system useless if CL goes down. >>>You say "And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space?" but that doesn't stop other companies from implimenting security proceedures, dongles, etc.<<< True. But I never said that CL was the only one wasting their time and customer good-faith on such useless procedures.

dmtyler wrote: FWIW, Max 4.0 and Character Studio 3 also incorporate a "software lock" in lieu of the hardware lock that was used in Max 3 and earlier. Looks as though software locks are the wave of the future. That could be why I haven't heard of FWIW etc. Whatever the initials "FWIW" stand for. It seems that this sort of software lock is merely a fashion which is going round, and CL should resist the temptation to follow the herd. Software locks might be semi-OK for very expensive work-type packages of which not many are bought and all their users are office businesses and are on the internet. But not for Poser. It is easy for people who are on the internet to forget that not everybody is, same as people in England suffer nuisance and inconvenience from the common planners' delusion that everybody has a car. What is someone without a WWW link to do, when he buys a package, say Qwerty? He phones Zxcvbnm Ltd/Inc/Gmbh who wrote it. That from some countries is slow and expensive and the phone line is bad. He gets "call later" and answering machines and checkups and busy tone etc. He writes a letter in the snail mail and after a fortnight he hasn't got an answer, due to distance and overseas-ness or Zxcvbnm's office being busy. Zxcvbnm wants this and that as checkup on his bona-fides. In the end he feels himself forced to get a warez copy via a friend of his who is on the internet. And that warez copy is the hacked version without the software lock. In comes the "law of diminishing returns", same as with book libraries: The library puts in a photocopy machine so that people won't have to steal books or razor pages out of books. OK for a while. Then someone in charge cets authority-minded and puts more and more checkups and hassle round the photocopier to stop illegal copying, until it gets to be so much hassle that people go back to stealing books and razoring pages out of books. I am sorry to take up so much space here. I admore CL for all their work writing such a useful package as Poser, but PLEASE forget this fancy new idea about a software lock and keep the present registration system. And note Snazzy's experience with Vbox (see message 104).

And it could be that sometimes, someone finds package Qwerty as warez, gets it because it is cheap and he didn't feel interested enough at hhe time to fork out for a legitimate copy, finds it useful, but not as useful as it could be because he hasn't got its manual, so he buys the next edition of Qwerty legitimately despite the extra cost.

Anthony- FWIW= for what it is worth; as in BTW= by the way; or in LOL= laughing out loud (wish I were). Sadly, I have a very full day today, and I need to let this one go. Thank you to those who have expressed giving us a chance to prove what we are doing, and to our critics, it's been a very informative excercise; I have faith that we will be able to put your fears to rest. The updater will fix Pro Pack bugs, offer MAX 4 plug-in support, and be available before this thread has cooled down. And it will have interlock protection. Sincerely, Steve Cooper

Hmmmm ,all to big brother for me,and the point that servers arent down for days at a time ! Crap! Mine has gone out for a week!I dont register ANYTHING cause I figue I paid for itand that is the end of the story.I didnt even register Windows cause I dont trust multinationals to keep there eyes out of my business!

Like I said before...no matter how we feel about it it was probably in place long before anything was said. Now matter what any of the loyal users of Poser say..suggest..or gripe about we will never have a say in what they feel makes the money. Ghost talks about giving them a chance to come in a explain things. Well as you can see it's been explained in the note above. Basically saying we don't really care about what the users think we will do as we please. If you don't want to update fine, there are others who will. Where's all this loyalty to the users Ghost? Marque

A related matter: when I switch my laptop on, sometimes it asks me if I want to auto-register its Poser 4. Why? Like many people, it is on a dialup line and it doesn't automatically login to the net at boot up, but I log in after that for as long as I need to read my mail and messages, and then log out, to save my phone bill and in case anyone was wanting to phone me.

Marque .. I don't get that from the post above. As I said, I just don't see the huge hardship on sending a 30 second e-mail. Even if you get a new computer every 2 months it isn't that much of a problem. Don't see a completely new computer coming that often for most people but that is all it takes. I don't have internet on my Poser computer. Even if I did I would probably use the e-mail option anyway. To be honest I haven't registered some of my software but I see the e-mail to be a minor thing. I am tired of this ... Done with the forum for a few days until this junk blows over.

I have already dealt with this with two other companies, Right Hemisphere...who were very nice but it still took multiple emails and phone calls to get it straightened out, and Creature Creator..and anyone who has worked with them can tell you what a nightmare it is. I have no problem with CL implementing their protection, and I will do the free update, but unless version 5 is so inexpensive that I can't resist I won't be buying it. I am just not willing to take that chance. At least with version 4.0 I know that if they go belly up I will still be able to use the program, and even with the Pro Pack. I just won't be locking myself in to a version that I may not be able to use. Got nothing against CL. Just tired of being the one inconvenienced by thieves. Marque

If CL gets two or more emailed or automatic or phone or snail-mail requests from Mr.X to register the same copy of Poser 5 or whatever, on two different computers (#1 and #2), how will CL or its software distinguish between these cases?:- (0) Mr.X has two computers, perhaps a desktop and a laptop, and he will only use one at a time, and won't let anyone else use either, so the "only one user" rule is satisfied. (1) Ditto, but he plans to let different people use the multiple installations at the same time. (2) Mr.X has scrapped #1 and bought #2. (3) #2 is #1 with a new hard-drive. (4) The duplicate installations are actually off different CD-ROM's, and one or both of them is a warez or other breach or copyright.

Yeah, Anthony, you are asking the right questions and you have done so a couple of times - but did you get a reply? Nope! Onr thing is clear - I have paid a lot of money for all my software but no one - and I mean no one - puts a stamp on my hard drive! Period & dot! - Zoot

Hey has any one ever thought that some users dont even have access to the net? its easy for you in the USA ,net connection here is not cheap!I battle to afford a dial up with limited hours. Phone thru for a code? oh yea on international rates! "We will put you on hold for a moment" HA!

Ditto. Installing or re-installing Poser gets more and more complicated, and more complications mean more that can go wrong, as I know from years of scuba diving and writing computer programs. Busy tone, lines down, sorry he's ill / on holiday / not in yet / in conference / etc, faint or noisy lines so I can't hear the code number as it is read out to me, the person reading the number out to me has a heavy foreign accent or a mouth full of chewing gum, having to ferret through a maze of recorded voices reciting lists of numbers telling me what to press for this and that option, the caller wanting the code does not know English well, etc etc etc. And if the caller is in about the same time zone as CL, perhaps he can't get to a phone during CL office hours due to his work. Please God spare us from that hassle. We seem to have here yet another case of a man thinking that everybody is as conveniently placed as he is, "delusion of standardness", e.g.:- Everybody is on the internet. Everybody has a car. Everybody lives in the USA. In England, everybody lives in the south. Everybody has easy access to a software shop that has everything on the shelf or can be got in 2 days. Everybody has a credit card. (I have never had one.) Everybody has a telephone. At work I was put on a duty of going round my department's computers checking them for ergonomics, and whoever made the form out thought that all PC's were on an office desk with an angle lamp and a rotating chair! :-) I found that more than half were on lab benches with lab stools, one in a fume cupboard, one in a steel cupboard that he had to open to use it, one on a trolley, two or more in a clusters linked to lab equipment, variations ad infinitum and never mind some office man's tidy efficient official ideas of standardness. I wonder how many people get software as warez because they can't find anywhere they can buy the software legitimately? At a nearby big software shop I have been told "Sorry, we haven't got it in, and we don't order things for people.". My experiences with buying Bryce and Poser are:- Bryce 3: a shop had it in. Poser 3: I ordered it from a shop in Westhoughton (Lancs,UK) and I had to wait while they got it in. Bryce 4 & Poser 4: I asked on Renderosity who was selling them legitimately, and I ordered them via the snail mail. In my case, I don't have to resort to warez, because often when I want something I write it for myself with my good old faithful Borland C++ 4.52 compiler.