I recently had an image removed..and was issued a warning for an image i believe was well within the guidelines of the TOS.This action was very insulting to me and my art..and once again it was a group of moderators that made this decision after we were told that Aiko is an anime character and a young lady not a child...and the image was cute and not in anyway breaking your prescious rules.in fact it went as far as to state how old the character was..I think the rules are written badly and have way to much room for moderators oppinions...alot of people think you are bending over for paypal and alot think it is a power thing...i dont understand it at all..this has become one of the prudest site on the interenet..i really feel that i have been wronged by these actions...

Welcome to Renderosity land of the censor and the home of the unjust warning.

Primal...Since I've been here, Rendo has always been like this and that's why I finally decided to removed my gallery, which was all "G-rated" art.

 There are certainly other places that we can post at that don't have such strict rules.

Bill; I hope the staff will reply to this thread. I am confused too and I don't like to post images with Aiko because of this mess. As for your image, it's one I didn't get to view so I have no idea what was supposed to be so bad. But I've never known you to post any image that would be outright sexual in nature even with V3. I hope this gets addressed and straightened out for all of us.

It's common to find folks objecting to aiko as "too young", even at the poser-related porno sites. although the SCOTUS ruled that computer- generated images of underage humans are legal, there is no requirement for anybody to run his/her website according to SCOTUS rulings. if it's not prohibited, it may also not be mandatory.

The image was reviewed by a panel of staff and we all felt that the character depicted appeared under 18.

If you feel that your image was removed in error then you are more than welcome to contact admin@renderosity.com.

Thanks

Sad...realy sad....And you wonder why more and more people are leaving.  What happend to "all about the artist"????   Primal..it didnt violate the Toss...just how...some people who shouldnt be moderators chose to enforce it. 

mej brings up an interesting point - is the membership total here increasing or decreasing? I looked briefly for some count of total members, but couldn't immediately find one. regarding aiko, I dunno any site where there aren't members who object to the model on the grounds that it looks "too young". anywhere one goes, there are gonna be members who object to stuff, then they complain to the admins, who are then forced to do something.

Ive decided that is is my last forum post, except when Im looking for an item, and thatll be in poser or photoshop forums.  Ill do most of my posting of images elsewhere, and my purchasing.  And hopefully one day ostiy will be a fun place to come to again.  And on that note Ill keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself. 

I'm my opinion..... Karen 1573 doesn't look over 18. Does that mean I can have her removed?

Thanks luckyred, that's a real boost to my 33-year-old ego ;-)

If I was to post a naked photo of myself (not something I'm in the habit of doing!) and the majority opinion was that I appeared under 18, then I would be required to provide photo-ID to prove that I was old enough to get my bits out in public.

But as the TOS states, since 3D models can't be asked for their driver's license, the decision is made by the team on a majority basis.

Quote -

But as the TOS states, since 3D models can't be asked for their driver's license, the decision is made by the team on a majority Bias.

Fixed
Thats the way we all know it should be  because we all know you guys hate aiko :P

Opens popcorn and grumbles about the amount of repeats in the forums these days

well that popcorn that will help pass the time until Karen uploads a noody piccy of herself, that we can all review, commencing thumb twiddling, awaiting Karens next post, come on Karen after quitting smoking you need a new habit!!

What? Nudes at Renderosity? Shocking!

giggle :lol: giggle

Actually, Karen, I'm sure they'd be quite tasteful, artistically meaningful, and lovely. There's nothing like self-expression...

Captain Jack

Nice try guys, it's not gonna happen though :laugh:

Quote - Nice try guys, it's not gonna happen though :laugh:

Sorry... just the onus we bear for having "Y" chromosomes. We have to try.

I see no one gives a shit about art..its all some kind of power thing...Moderators shouldnt be making the rule desicions..it should be written so the rules can be used without guess work or asking a moderator can i post this?its ridiculous!and this kind of stupid dribble happens everytime i come to the forums too...It is just some kind of joke...and i dont think making light of it helps...and i can see taking it to the forums was a mistake as you treat it as a joke..and tell me to write a private letter to administration when i want people to know what is happening...i wrote a letter the same time i got notice and a warning...and have had no return mail from anyone...so why dont you forward a message that i think i was wrongly accused and protest the desicion..

Quote - I see no one gives a shit about ...

My goodness, but the Unholy Demon of All That Is Unfair And Wrong has really grabbed you by the woolies and yanked, hasn't he? Honestly, the TOS is written as fairly as it can be, but there is a certain amount of subjective judgement that has to go into enforcing it.

Let's break it down into playground rules; perhaps that will be a little clearer. The kid with the bat and ball gets to decide the rules when you're playing at his house. I post images here at R'Osity, and I post in the forums, and if they tell me that I'm not following a rule, then it is true. Merely because they say so? Yes, indeed. Their ball, their bat, their backyard.

Now, when I post an image at your web site, I'll follow your rules. Remind me again, what is the URL for the web site where your shelling out all the money for servers, comm lines, and staff? Hmm?

Captain Jack

The decision was made by the TEAM as Karen stated, not one moderator. There is no bias against Aiko at all. If the final rendered image is nude and appears under 18 then its against our TOS.

Primal,

Please contact admin@renderosity.com if you have any concerns regarding your image removal.

The Community Center forum is not designed for this type of thread so let's move on and if you have a concern please contact the appropriate email address.

Its useless trying to talk with you..you already know it all..I pay for this place when i use the store...and by all the best artists leaving beacause of the fairness of the rules.. i dont think they are the best they can be...

sweep it under the carpet..O.K.

If you have concerns regarding your image removal please contact admin@renderosity.com

O.K. tell me what forum is appropriate?

Primaltrunk, I did not see your post.

But I seen alot of Aiko, That slip by. I believe its because she is a young toon and it's very hard to get her to look older. Myself I would just put her in the catagory of the other Daz teens and children. that would end alot of hurt feelings and the rule would be clear.

I've seen this happen so many times, and the person posting gets mad and pulls their gallery, and then I never see them again. Which makes me sad, because I had enjoyed their artwork.

May I ask a question?

Why don't you guys (meaning Rendo) just state that nudes of Aiko are not allowed and then no one gets images pulled. Would make decisions about it much easier all around.  Just think...no one complaining in the Community Forum about it (which by the way, the  Rendo description for this area is: Forum news, updates, events, and other items of interest to members. Also may be used to post notices or questions to the forum team.).  No one complaining about favoritism, no one making sport of others who have had images pulled and are upset over it. The list could go on for the pros of doing just that. Make it easier on yourselves and the members here. Just say no to nude Aikos.

Unicorst I agree whith you. If Rendero write in their TOS and guidelines , no Nudit Aiko, everybody knows. But this way looks just like censoring.
Its so sad so many Artist leave this place .
I know Bills art and i am sure there was nothening pervert on this.

I will certainly discuss with the other members of the team about possibly changing our guidelines in the TOS about Aiko but there will be others that I'm assuming could fall in this same category:(

Quote - I will certainly discuss with the other members of the team about possibly changing our guidelines in the TOS about Aiko but there will be others that I'm assuming could fall in this same category:(

@Stacey this is a first step i think. But at last Aiko is for me just a Anime, toon figur. has nothing to do whith a real person like the other characters.
Cute yes, but not the way like the Millenium girls.
And how i understand the thing here, Bill gets a warning from you. Why? Aikos nudity stands not in your TOS and Guidelines. So its unfair.

For what it's worth, I'm putting forth my opinion, though first, I'd like to address jevans69's post. 

I'm afraid I fail to see where the 'schoolyard mentality' is applicable to this site.  This is not a private site, and the reason the 'bills get paid' is due to customers purchasing from the Market Place.  It's the artists and paying customers who do pay the bills.  With that being the case, it would seem to me that if anyone has a right to make suggestions in how the site is run, at least to some degree, it's the ones keeping the site in business.  If you want to use the 'bat, ball and backyard' analogy, then by rights, those items are shared by those the site makes their money from, namely, the merchant's sales.  If the site was forking out all the money from their own pocket to keep this site running, that would be an entirely different story.

Having said that, I do understand the need for rules on any site, however, the one word which, in my opinion is definitive when it comes to passing judgement on artwork, and what is or isn't appropriate, is 'subjective.'  There are going to be images which can be considered blatant by the vast majority of the site and its members.  There are those images however, where it appears a select few make a ruling, regardless if a majority disagrees.  I've seen morphs created for Victoria 3 which, in my opinion, make her appear younger than 18.  Does that make my opinion right or wrong, or is it a general understanding that V3 'has' to be 18 or over?

With Aiko, just how old is this cartoon character?  I put forth that question in a very serious manner.  I don't think she fits in with the MilBaby, the MilChildren, or the MilTeens.  Further, I think The Girl fits in the same basic category as Aiko because she's a cartoon character.

I put forth the suggestion that the TOS include clearly defined statements regarding these two characters.  Either there's absolutely no nudity, or there can be.  Leave no room for error, and take the burden off the artists in trying to 'guess' at what might be okay to post.  This 'yes', 'no', 'maybe' issue is cumberson, at the very least, and as it's been proven, not only puts the burden of guesswork on the artists (only to have them sometimes shot down later), but also breeds animosity to the point of where we've already lost a number of artists with others in the process of making arrangements to leave.

In closing, I'd like to thank you, Stacey, since you plan to take steps to discuss this with other members of the team.  Thank you.  I may pull Aiko and The Girl off the dusty shelf yet.

Oh, no doubt Stacey. It's possible to make Vicki look 10, if you want to.  And there are so many others that already stand on that thin line of "old enough, not old enough". The Girl comes to mind as well as TY2. Let's not forget the  guys...we have Hiro for their side. But it seems to me whenever anyone is upset over an image pulled, it involves Aiko.

One other thing you might also consider. There are nudes of Aiko in the MP and she does look young in many of them. This is totally allowed by those who run it after declaring AIko to not be considered a minor. Seems in all fairness, those should also be censored and not allowed anymore. See? This is what is the most upsetting to members who have images of Aiko pulled. It's allowed in one area and not another. Something else that falls under the "double-standard" catagory. There needs to be a clear cut policy concerning Aiko and should be inforced in all areas of this site.

And what is about sexy lingerie and sexy clothes for Aiko? Some clothes are really looking too sexy for a girl under 18.
But you can buy here at the MP a lot of high heels, sexy lingerie, and other stuff.
This is very strange. For one side she is not old enough to be nacked, the other side she is old enough to wear Table dance look?

Quote - I see no one gives a shit about art..its all some kind of power thing...Moderators shouldnt be making the rule desicions..it should be written so the rules can be used without guess work or asking a moderator can i post this?its ridiculous!and this kind of stupid dribble happens everytime i come to the forums too...It is just some kind of joke...and i dont think making light of it helps...and i can see taking it to the forums was a mistake as you treat it as a joke..and tell me to write a private letter to administration when i want people to know what is happening...i wrote a letter the same time i got notice and a warning...and have had no return mail from anyone...so why dont you forward a message that i think i was wrongly accused and protest the desicion..

It's quite simple actually.. when you're in someone else's house you have to follow their rules. Now I am all for artistic nudity and if I were to show up at someone else's house dressed in something very revealing and the home owner disapproved, I would have two options... put more clothes on or leave! Depending on how much I like the home owner I would base my decision on it.. While this is for many of us our home away from home, we still don't pay the mortgage and therefor the homeowner i.e Renderosity has the last say on what is and isn't acceptable. Shrug

@dolphins Dreams
What kind of rules you mean? There are no rules till now for Aikos nudity.

Quote - And what is about sexy lingerie and sexy clothes for Aiko? Some clothes are really looking too sexy for a girl under 18.
But you can buy here at the MP a lot of high heels, sexy lingerie, and other stuff.
This is very strange. For one side she is not old enough to be nacked, the other side she is old enough to wear Table dance look?

Yes, but is the Merchant responsible on how the artist uses their products?

Quote - @dolphins Dreams
What kind of rules you mean? There are no rules till now for Aikos nudity.

Do specific rules really have to be set for each and every model in Renderosity? We all know rendrosity has nuditiy rules for models that look younger. Has been that way for quiet some time now. Now it doesn't mean we arent allowed to render Aiko nude or render a nude fae, it means we simply have to choose wisely on whether we can post it here. There are plenty of other sites where those images are completely uncensored. Again, I DO 100% support artistic nudity, however in an environment like this we choose more wisely on whether to display it here :)

The thing is Aiko can be rendered to appear over the age of 18 .  That is why not all Aiko gallery images have been pulled, its all in the apperance of the FINAL rendered image, the character really doesn't matter.

Quote - > Quote - And what is about sexy lingerie and sexy clothes for Aiko? Some clothes are really looking too sexy for a girl under 18.

But you can buy here at the MP a lot of high heels, sexy lingerie, and other stuff.
This is very strange. For one side she is not old enough to be nacked, the other side she is old enough to wear Table dance look?

Yes, but is the Merchant responsible on how the artist uses their products?

Tell me how you can use sexy lingerie and pin up clothes. Pin Up poses and so on.
The is i think not so much way to use it.
For pin up images and sexy images.
You cant find nowhere sexy stuff for the Mill. girls. But for Aiko yes.

You cant find nowhere sexy stuff for the Mill. girls. But for Aiko yes.

See, we just found a new market for yet undiscovered products LOL ;)

Quote -

You cant find nowhere sexy stuff for the Mill. girls. But for Aiko yes. See, we just found a new market for yet undiscovered products LOL ;)

LOL   :thumbupboth:  we are really great!!!

Quote - The thing is Aiko can be rendered to appear over the age of 18 .  That is why not all Aiko gallery images have been pulled, its all in the apperance of the FINAL rendered image, the character really doesn't matter.

But Stacey, Aiko allways look young. I have never seen a image whith Aiko where she looked over 18. Aiko has a dollface.

No, I have seen her rendered to look over 18 just as I've seen V3 rendered to appear under 18.

I agree with Unicornst!!!  Make it real clear that Aiko is not to be used in nudes! That way all this rediculous removing and crap can end! And, I can stop buy things I can't use. LOL.

ART comes in many forms and nudity has always been at the forefront...the human form is outstanding in all it's forms, young, old, fat, thin, whatever. Should they pull all the religious art for nudity of children and younger life forms such as cherrubs from the many world galleries?

Just my 2 cents and I'm not going to watch this topic so if you want to reply to what I said, send PM or e-mail.

I agree with Unicornst!!!  Make it real clear that Aiko is not to be used in nudes! That way all this rediculous removing and crap can end! And, I can stop buy things I can't use. LOL.

ART comes in many forms and nudity has always been at the forefront...the human form is outstanding in all it's forms, young, old, fat, thin, whatever. Should they pull all the religious art for nudity of children and younger life forms such as cherrubs from the many world galleries?

Just my 2 cents and I'm not going to watch this topic so if you want to reply to what I said, send PM or e-mail.

Neomea said:

Quote - For what it's worth, I'm putting forth my opinion, though first, I'd like to address jevans69's post.

Hmm.. are you under the impression that I'm objecting to someone making suggestions to improve the site? I certainly never meant to imply anything of the sort. I'm all in favor of the exchange of ideas, and I think suggestions about improving the site are in everyone's interest, especially the people who work so hard to make the site available to us in the first place.

Nor was I applying a "schoolyard mentality" to this site. I did use the phrase "schoolyard terms" in developing an analogy that I thought might be useful in helping primaltruck get a perspective on the larger situation. Yes, of course I was poking fun; my personal opinion is that the comments made were (not entirely, but mostly) childish in nature, designed to be provocative and not helpful. Specifically, the comments that fall into this latter category:

 *"This action was very insulting to me and my art.."
"the image was cute and not in anyway breaking your prescious rules."
"this has become one of the prudest site on the interenet"
"I see no one gives a shit about art"
"its all some kind of power thing"
"Moderators shouldnt be making the rule desicions"
"it should be written so the rules can be used without guess work or asking a moderator can i post this?"
"its ridiculous!"
"and this kind of stupid dribble happens everytime i come to the forums too"

I am, of course, quoting out of context; for the full text, please see page one. I am not denying this person the right to vent an opinion. If I were a moderator, operator, or owner of this site I would have the right to do so, if I chose, but I don't, and I would certainly prefer that primaltruck and everyone else be allowed full opportunity to vent. I kow that I, myself, appreciate the opportunity to vent about the things (related to this thread) that annoy me.

I'm certain that the phrase "I see no one gives a shit about art" was clearly aimed at me and the others who were making unrelated, facetious remarks. To be fair, what we did is an ettiquette no-no; we hijacked the thread. Given the emotional nature of the first post, it would have been better to stay on-topic, and I do regret that somewhat. I can say that I was hoping to interject some humor into a devolving situation, but I am aware that it was not wanted, and it would have been better to make such posts in a different thread.

My real problem is, I just don't get it. My artwork, if you wish to call it that, would get hustled out of I don't know how many galleries around the world, internet or otherwise. Check out my gallery; it's of no real value, any of it. I don't meet the "TOS" of any number of serious artists and purveyors of their work. My stuff is silly, juvenile, full of puns, in many cases badly rendered, or just plain dumb. I can imagine any number of places that offer hosting services where my "art" would get kicked off, and for reasons that I, personally, would feel were egregious and stupid. The deal is, though, it's not my web site. Even if I used them as a merchant, and contribute in some small way to their bottom line, it's not mine. I don't get to make the rules. Whether I buy something from them or not, the business does not belong to me.

The suggestion that a rule be made about a particular 3D figure created by a particular CG company is good in the sense that, if it were useful, it would make the world simple for people that can't cope with a complex world where adult people have to make decisions about a functional business operation. Renderosity doesn't host figures, they host images. It's the images that have to be evaluated, not the data files that are used to create them. That's what the TOS says they do, that's what they actually do, and that's the way it is.

The people behind Renderosity have elected to shoulder the mantle of providing this site. In addition to all us artists, forum users, and clients (yes, I'm a client), they have to get along with advertisers (Have you noticed the ads? Do you really think that the Marketplace runs this show all by its lonesome?), Internet telecomm providers, and financial institutions. All of these places have their own little rules, too, which we may not like, but have to be respected, too. If the whole thing doesn't work together, the whole thing goes down the tubes.

Look, we can all do what R'osity does, if we want. It's a wide-open world out there. We can make our own art sites with our own rules, and make our own forums, and act as merchants if we want. Heck, we're free to run R'osity right out of business by making a site so spectacular that no one will ever come back. The struggles to keep an Internet business open and running are many and varied, and it's an amazingly difficult job that these people do, and I'm constantly surprised and deloighted at how well they do it. In particular, me 'ats off to StaceyG for the diplomatic way she responds to these very sorts of discussions.

Anyway, my bottom line is, I absolutely want people to continue to express their opinions, even the erroneous opinions they may have about me. I hope you and everyone will continue to shout about how you feel, pro or con, with me or ag'in me, and I do hope you and everyone will keep doing it, at least some of the time, here.

I am very likely to continue to throw water on it what I perceive as selfish behavior designed to call attention to someone's bruised ego rather than an honest attempt to help make the world a better place. It's a lifelong habit with me, and I may be too old to change my ways.

Captain Jack

@jevans
If you go through the gallereis and search for Aiko images , you will see a lot of nudity.
So why one image is banned the other one no?
TOS is okay, but the TOS are for everybody and not for just a few people.
Its unfair to remove one image from the galleries and leave the another one.
If the admins say Aikos nudity breack the Rosity rules okay,i accept. But i cant accept why one artist have to remove his image and the another one not.

jevans69 wrote: "The kid with the bat and ball gets to decide the rules when you're playing at his house."

This is essentially correct.  However, when we discover that the kid with the bat and ball doesn't have firm clear rules, we get frustrated with the game and eventually stop playing with him.

To Neomea:  We always have the option to make suggestions.  It's just that when it comes right down to it, the kids with the bats and balls don't need to listen.

To Bill:  Sorry it took me so long to get in here, man.  I have avoided the forums literally for years.  Too much chaotic energy in here.

To Any and All:  The picture was inoffensive.  No warnings ought be given.

Dolphins-Dream wrote: "Yes, but is the Merchant responsible on how the artist uses their products? "

The merchant is certainly responsible for the manner in which he or she displays the product...and the administration is responsible for how they allow it to be displayed.

Quote - If you go through the gallereis and search for Aiko images , you will see a lot of nudity.
So why one image is banned the other one no?
TOS is okay, but the TOS are for everybody and not for just a few people.
Its unfair to remove one image from the galleries and leave the another one.
If the admins say Aikos nudity breack the Rosity rules okay,i accept. But i cant accept why one artist have to remove his image and the another one not.

The rules don't say you can't have nudity in an image. They don't say you can't have Aiko in an image. To quote, if I may:

"No Child Nudity: Images of children or characters resembling children (including teens, pre adolescent, child like fairies and other imaginary figures) under 18 years of age, depicting nudity are no longer permitted. "

There is simply no way to decide if an image appears to contain a human under the age of 18 which is also nude or sexually suggestive, except by examining it, and making a subjective evaluation. Somebody's got to do that; my understanding is that they do it as a team. But it's still somebody's call on each and every image. There is no hard and fast rule that can automatically be applied to any character. It's possible that they miss some; in fact, I'm sure they do. They get many, many images and they're only human, and there's only so many hours in the day. Some days, their perspective may be different than others.

Sometimes the other kid gets a bigger scoop of ice cream, and we cry and move on.

But, that's still not the point. This is not a democracy, it's a privately owned business where we, the public wander in and out at odd hours. If they only applied their rules to every other left handed Gemeni who was bi-lingual and had more than two moles, they could do that if they wanted to. I don't think they do that (You don't do that, do you Stacey? ) but they're allowed. Honest, they really are.

What Ladona said.

I'll say again, its not about the character, its about how the image is rendered to appear. You can make any character look older or younger and if you choose to do it with nudity then its best to clearly make the final render appear over the age of 18.  We have a large team of mods/coords (52 not including admin) and we vote on the questionable images so there is no one or two persons that see it a certain way then take action.