Given all the current messages concerning copy protection vs the users, why not put a poll up here to get a proper feel for the feelings for or against it? Suggested questions could be something like (for example) : (1)Are you in favour of Poser being copy protected at all? Or dont you care? (2)If yes, what method do you think should be used? CL's suggested method One time registration (no limit on system changes, etc) Dongle CD required to start program Something else Dont care (3) If CL implememnt their system, will you buy/upgrade the next version of ppp or poser? (4) If no to (3), will you recomment to friends/colleages that they not buy it either? Granted, this won't be a comprehensive survey, but it hopefully would give a better idea of the feelings - there might be a lot of people in favour who just dont bother to post one way or the other

Basically, it appears that on this particular subject the feeling of the Poser community is irrelevant (I am taking no stance on the issue).

Why don't the moderators just move this and all other gripes about this issue to the Complaints and Debates forum instead?

(5) How many installs have you made from the same copy of Poser, and why, and over how much time? (6) How often have you changed your computer's configuration (including running a laptop with and without its external zipdrive or mouse or etc)?

(7) If you are planning to buy Poser in any case, will the protection delay your purchase? (Yes, No, Not applicable or don't know) Incidently, I don't think any of these threads should be moved to C & D, this is about the future of Poser, and I think Curious Labs is listening, and if we keep this on a rational level (and avoid Curious Lab's bashing, or making posturing statements, we can influence what they do along this line).

Jim, I have to agree with you, this affects Poser and new users may or may not ever venture into the C&D forum. It needs to stay here if it is going to continue. I personally think it's moot now, as CL has stated they are going to do this and I don't think anything we say or do at this point is going to make a difference. If I am correct, the Right Hemisphere software lock is done by another company, so I would imagine a contract of some sort is already in place. If I am wrong here I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me, (and bye the way...I do appreciate that). Marque

I think the moderators have done an excellent job in this situation. What you guys think is rellevent and I think it would be wrong for moderator to prevent someone from posting their opinion. We're not going to pull copy protection but it's good to hear that people are so passionate about this. From both sides. I have had a lot of people email me directly that are just lurkers and/or afraid to post support. I think davidrows' questions would be good. If they just require a yes or no answer then people may be more apt to respond. Start a new thread and a poll? I'd rather one of you guys do this because it is your forum. Thanks again for the feedback. **************************** Steve Yatson Product Manager Curious Labs Http://www.curiouslabs.com ****************************

What's done is done. My eyes are bleeding from reading all these threads... It's obvious how a lot of people feel here. The company needs to do what it needs to do, and we as consumers need to do what we need to do. I don't buy any software that 'phones home' or requires activation online. I've had my PC pretty messed up by these protection schemes. I had one hell of a time registering Dance Studio of all things as I surf on one machine and keep my much loved software on another... It didn't see Dance Studio on my surf machine and refused to deal with me. For $8.95 I got more headaches that the worth of the program. That was the last time. I tossed the CD out.

Steve, I don't see where Curious Labs is not getting support, you know there are a lot of loyal users out here and I can't believe people would think they would get flamed here for supporting you guys. I have said before I have nothing against copy protection...just not happy with this type. I have supported Poser since version 1.0, and when I bought the Pro Pack from your site at CL I considered that support as well. Please don't make us out as the bad guys just because we don't care for this type of protection. The time to get feedback on this would have been BEFORE you decided to implement it...not AFTER the fact. Marque

Marque, CL never sought feedback on the copy protection scheme. In fact, privately I'll bet that Steve would prefer that the discussion go away...if not just to get back to playing with his beta versions of P5.

"If I am correct, the Right Hemisphere software lock is done by another company, so I would imagine a contract of some sort is already in place." I hope that for CL's sake this hypothetical contract includes a hefty refund to CL if CL can demonstrate that a working crack to the protection scheme is extant within a set period of release of the PPP bug fix. If it doesn't, then the vendor of the protection scheme has done a sweet marketing job on CL, based on Steve's hopeful expectations for the protection for PPP that he has voiced here. Well, time (not a very long a period of time) will tell. On a side note; Discreet used a hardware dongle system for 3DSMax 3 and switched to a software lock system for Max 4. The reason I heard was that they had so much hassle (and cost) in helping out legitimate users having problems with the drivers for the dongle not working. This was one case of inconvenience to users outweighing the extra security of a hardware lock.

And allowing only 3 loads from the CD-ROM and then the CD-ROm is dead without a lot of messy special applying across the Atlantic for permission to have more allowed, is a wickedly short tether to put people on. This is like Big Brother and the book "1984". CL should scrap this agreement regardless of anything that has been signed.

Well...we don't know that they, (CL) even have an aggreement with another company, so if they don't this is all moot as well. I just know that Right Hemisphere "appears" to have one with another company because I had to deal with 2 different companies to get my serial number and upgrade straightened out. And I must say that someone from Right Hemisphere called me on what was a Saturday afternoon Down Under, so I do admire their tech support if not their copy protection...lol Marque

n. Whatever the protection will be, it will be cracked by the warez people, and the only thing the protection will do is that we all "legal" people will have many headaches. Well, Cl will do CL wants.

n. Whatever the protection will be, it will be cracked by the warez people, and the only thing the protection will do is that we all "legal" people will have many headaches. Well, Cl will do CL wants. Yep, Curious Labs will do what they want. And to quote John Wayne: "And a man's gotta do, what a man's gotta do." Meaning, I won't be supporting CL anymore. I will not condone a course of action that will lead to headaches for me and many, many other legitimate users. You see... if the entire community banded together and refused to buy any poser upgrades with this absurd protection, then they would be forced to a) remove the protection or b) go out of business. But unfortunately.... we are divided... and therefore have no power.

"if the entire community banded together and refused to buy any poser upgrades"

That's called biting the hand that feeds you. BTW, I get headaches from too much or not enough caffeine...not from pressing a couple buttons on my computer. If this process does cause you a headache, I highly recommend you stick your computer in a closet somehwere and never touch it again...or you're head is going to explode.

Don't know if it counts for anything but I just spoke to Glenn at Right Hemisphere and he told me that yes, they do in fact go through another company to do the software lock, and that they have not had a problem with warez people cracking their programs now. I have said that if I can get some kind of assurance that I will be able to use the upgrade from CL if they go under, (i.e. a patch to unlock the program so I can continue to use it if they are gone), then I will probably upgrade it. I will stand by that. Marque

Marque, they have said they will provide an update that will disable the lock if for some reason they (God forbid) go out of business. They also said that they will post this on their website on the FAQ when they release the update.

That's called biting the hand that feeds you. BTW, I get headaches from too much or not enough caffeine...not from pressing a couple buttons on my computer. If this process does cause you a headache, I highly recommend you stick your computer in a closet somehwere and never touch it again...or you're head is going to explode. So... do you think it the caffine that makes you so sarcastic? Or just cause your momma dropped you on your head too many times? =P The fact of the matter is, I change my hardware CONSTANTLY. Maybe you don't upgrade your computer much. But I upgrade my constantly... and I go thru hard drives like grain alcohol at a frat party. =D The main reason is because my Poser drive is a removable hard drive. And just from carrying it back and forth to work, the hard drive doesn't last very long. So while it may not be a big deal for you, please try to consider that some people lead more hectic lifestyles than you and consequently this becomes just one more thing to eat up our valuable free time. Oh... and it's not really called biting the hand that feeds you. If the hand feeds you, you leave it alone. If the hands trys to SMACK you upside the head.... THEN YOU BITE IT!!!! CL is smacking us upside the head, so why not bite them. I can live without Poser. Can Poser live without me? Can it live without the support of this community? If anything... you should direct your "bite the hand that feeds you" comment to Curious Labs. WE are the people that put food on the plate of Curious Labs. [[[ BITE ]]]

Guess I'll be upgrading then....now to start saving my pennies. Marque

It's a vicious circle. True, Poser wouldn't be here without the community, but this community would not be here without Poser. It is Poser that brought us together and it is Poser that keeps us here.

They are not smacking YOU upside the head. They are directing their smack at the illegal distributers of their software. All they are asking you to do is duck out of the way.

You carry Poser on your hard drive from home to work. Maybe they already made provisions for this? Maybe you only have to register it twice? Why don't you politely ask them how that will work before you accuse them?

this community lives now, woth poser 4, this comunity doesnt need necesary work with poser 5 to live. If someone need update poser 4, well, do it, but The price of update will be more expensive ( the cost of a protection system, other things..) For my part, i only want poser4.

You lot who want to live with the copy-protect, won't be so happy with it after you've loaded the upgrade, had to reload it twice after that for one reason or another, and then need to reload it a 3rd time and find that it wont load without a lengthy formal proof of evidence to CL to get it extended.

I would like to remind everyone that this is not C&D. Lets keep the main subject to Poser and related subject matter. Express your opinions, but be nice about it. Thanks -JeffH.

Anthony, are you reading the responses from CL or no? They already said that it would be simple to authorize installation past the 3rd machine/configuration. All they have to do is check to make sure your serial number is not one of the ones being distributed on warez boards.

Needing the CD-ROM to run the program every time, doesn't seem safe. The more a CD-ROM is handled, the more risk there is of it getting broken or scratched. I want to load Poser 5 or whatever, no waiting while an email gets from Manchester (UK) across the Atlantic and to the far side of the USA, and is handled there, and the answer coes back. After that I want to put the valuable load CD-ROM back away in its case in a drawer safe and leave it there safe and not touch it again until I must reload again, and NOT have to carry it about with me if I have a laptop and I want to run Poser away from home.

To JKeller: The warez board versions will likely not need an unlocking serial number, for reasons discussed before. The crackers are skilled and numerous and persistent. They cracked Maya. They've cracked Max 4. And they'll crack this.

They are not requiring the CD-Rom like Bryce does. Email, faxes and telephone calls can get from the UK to the far side of the USA fairly quickly, though you are correct that turn-around time due to time-zone differeneces may cause some delays. However, due to the fact that there is a 7-day grace period that you can use Poser 5 or whatever fine without requiring the unlock code, that should be plenty of time for them to receive your message and get the response back to you.

Anthony, whether they crack it or not it shouldn't change how the process works for us legit customers.

Thanks for the reminder, Jeff. If my tone has come across in a harsh manner at all, I apologize for it.

Marque - "I have said that if I can get some kind of assurance that I will be able to use the upgrade from CL if they go under, (i.e. a patch to unlock the program so I can continue to use it if they are gone), then I will probably upgrade it." Hate to say it, but if they make such a formal statement it's still an empty promise. Think about it...what is "going under" and who determines that it happened? Let's say that Curious Labs lays off 24 people and all that's left is the owner, has it gone under? The owner will certainly want to try to sell it and if a "crack" was released the value of the program would have greatly diminished. Okay, you wait 1 month, then 2. Your hard drive dies and you get a new one. You can't contact anyone to get a new registration number (yeah, the owner is going to hang around answering phones). How long do we wait for the owner to decide that the program cannot be sold? Another scenerio. Let's say for the sake of argument that another MetaC program ... Painter3D has "gone under". If there had been a similar arrangement back then who would be responsible for providing the "crack", MetaC, Curious, Adobe? If an employee of any one of those did it they would find themselves in court and possibly jail. So when CL goes out who's going to do it? (by the way, in my view there are two kinds of businesses, those out of business and those that are going that way ... however, slowly (e.g. Pan American Airlines, Montgomery Ward, Commodore...) If the "crack" was put "in escrow" with some lawyer with specific instructions that the Poser community understood about what would have to happen to have the "crack" released, well then maybe you could trust that it would occur. In the end I'm not worried about CL going out of business. When they do the hacker/Warez people having done their thing will have provided us with the "crack". Hmmm where was that Warez address...I had it here somewhere...

Let's just say that I know my version of Poser works now, along with my Pro Pack. I have CD's for both and I have the update for Poser on CD. So that means if they go belly up I will still be able to use Poser. I'm not going to even upgrade to Poser 5 if it costs too much so I'm not going to worry about it at this point in my life. It's a fact of life that they are doing this. You can complain and threaten not to buy Poser, but it's in place and that is that. I'm not going to fry myself worrying about the what if's. It would be nice if something was kept in escrow, and that is what I was thinking when I suggested a patch, to have it put away safely somewhere. But whatever happens I will not worry about it until it gets here. If people don't like the update, then don't buy it. And I would suggest the CL give people the option of getting a refund for the Pro Pack, since it was released buggy and the option is to update with the new copy protection. I myself will be keeping my copy. Now, for a cup of tea, a walk about my garden and either a valium or a quick game of Quake III. 8^) Marque

Oh yeah, Quake III will calm you down. Everyone duck! {;^o)

FYI it'll actually be a 14 day grace period. Sorry about that. I may have acccidently stated 7 some where.

I pay (a lot of money) for software and I think that it's okay that people can't use any software without paying for it when others have to. But I can't accept any software which has to be registered online or which has to have an online-connection in order to work (because I don't have a modem or any other online-connection at the PC I use for working and rendering) and I can't accept (and wouldn't buy) any software I can't transfer to a new PC whenever I want.

Attached Link: http://www.hash.com/products/am.asp

Does anyone know if Hash Animation Master has a restrictive and invasive protection system? A.M. is way more capable than Poser and the Pro Pack put together (and the feature list covers a lot of Max and Lightwave ground, too), yet it costs only 300 dollars. It is much more difficult to use than Poser , but if it is free of said 'protection', then it may well be where I'm headed.

Zed, it doesn't have to be connected on-line to work. Having it connected at the time you authorize it makes it more convenient, but you can also authorize your software through telephone, fax, e-mail or even snail-mail.

You can transfer it to a new machine whenever you want, but you would have to re-register it within the grace period for each new machine.

Attached Link: http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html

I suppose I object most to the idea that CL wants to do something secret on my HD. That just rubs me the wrong way. I want trust. CL reps talk about how this is a direction many other software companies are/will be taking. I object to that. But they are indeed correct. Did you know there are big plans underway to have every IDE drive have a serial no/copy protection/encryption scheme? It's not just CL, it the whole industry. I plan to fight that every way I can--just like we fought (and have won so far) the id no. in your Pentium processor. Check out the link to this John Gilmore article. He states my point much better than I will get out here. I seem to remember Adobe (now a CL partner) being a leader in not having locked software in the 80's when us designers and techs objected vociferously (and also won that battle). Yes, I know they have some similar thing now on on GoLive, I think. Dreamweaver doesn't. I don't want to have a note from my doctor to do what I want with software I buy. Once I buy it, that's the end of the relationship as far as I'm concerned. You don't have my permission to do anything secret on my hard drive, or require any ongoing contact for me to use it. This whole thing is very much repeating the past to me. And the excuse is that there are so many people on the Internet that extra measures are needed. I don't buy that. Seems like an invasive excuse (not just from CL but the whole industry). Please don't move this thread to C&D, I think this is important enough to be here. --Patrick Snazzy Graphics

Anthony, are you reading the responses from CL or no? They already said that it would be simple to authorize installation past the 3rd machine/configuration. All they have to do is check to make sure your serial number is not one of the ones being distributed on warez boards.<<< From Steve Yatson in the thread titled "About the Poser Protection" - "Let me clarify. You can register each serial# 3 times." Where is the statement you are talking about? I can't get anyone from CL to acknowledge my existence, let alone answer my questions, so if you can be of help I would be appreciative. For someone who recently completed his 4th system upgrade in 9 months, with a 5th already being planned, the above policy is absurd.

(Maybe that was the 90's with Adobe--anyway, way back when in computer industry terms)

I'm with Ookami on this one. CL impements this pain in the ass and I'll not buy another version of poser. Thanks for the link PJF I mite be going that route myself. I just wonder if the Poser community is such a bunch of lemmenings that they'll hang there heads and except what the great poser gods have decreed. Yeah I bet they do. Be sure and say thank you to after all your only paying them.

I don't like copy protection and I don't think protection will add one thin dime to the bottom line of Curious Labs and is more likely to lose many dollars. Folks will just get the cracked bug fixes if your protection is too cumbersome and say to hell with your protection - if they don't say to hell with Poser upgrades of any kind first.

casamerica, perhaps if you posed your questions in a less hostile manner, people would find it easier to answer your questions.

Here's the quote from clsteve:
"6. 7. 8. Let me clarify. You can register each serial# 3 times. The copy that is on one machine cannot be moved to another simply by copying it. Two different aspects of protection. You'll spend less time emailing us for additional installs than you've spent on this thread."

The quote is from this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=280357

Other replies by Steve Cooper and Steve Yatson have mentioned that besides emailing, you could also telephone for additional installs. I know you may want a clearer explanation about this, but the questions are so spread out amongst the different threads that the answers are as well. Hopefully this will become much more clear when they post the FAQ.

Cybermonk, I don't think I appreciate being called a "lemmening." If you think CL is implementing a pain in the ass, I recommend you never use software such as 3DS Max or Lightwave.

casamerica, Please post your quetions or let me know where they are posted. I would be glad to answer them and I apologize if I missed them but I've had a lot of them to get to. You can register 3 times and then you will have to contact us. An email would do it. Or phone or fax or even snail mail. We're not trying to prevent you from using the product. In the case of 4 system upgrades in 9 months or the fifth, that is more than reasonable. Again we haden't had a chance to get some of these details ironed out before this all started because it was "leaked" to the press before we were ready. It may be a matter of simply requesting a few extra just in case by emailing us. Or, if you're like most people you know at least a day or two beforehand if you're going to upgrade.

Attached Link: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html

You might not "get" that Gilmore article I linked earlier without some background. Here's a good backgrounder on the IDE scheme, coming to a hard drive near you real soon. Gilmore is pretty philisophical obviously. He goes futher than I in many respects. But this is indeed the issue of the day, and why I think you see it touching a nerve here. For me, CL is becoming, in whatever small way, an early adopter of this sort of "taking over my hard drive" idea. If I had some extra bucks right now, I'd invest in several hard drives and leave them in their wrappers for a while. --Snazzy

casamerica, perhaps if you posed your questions in a less hostile manner, people would find it easier to answer your questions.<<< JKeller, I appreciate your taking the time to respond. However, my questions were not, IMHO, put forward in a hostile manner. I am a honest, paying customer and I want answers to my questions. That is all. And I would like them answered by the people who SHOULD know the answer - Curious Labs. It seems, however, that anyone not accepting this with no questions asked is getting heat from those who have accepted it. >>>Here's the quote from clsteve: "6. 7. 8. Let me clarify. You can register each serial# 3 times. The copy that is on one machine cannot be moved to another simply by copying it. Two different aspects of protection. You'll spend less time emailing us for additional installs than you've spent on this thread."<<< Okay. That is the same quote I was referring to. That still says nothing about after number 3. Nothing. Or am I completely and totally reading it wrong? Could be, it has been one helluva day. The way I read it, understand it is that everytime I upgrade I have to call into their system to get authorization. Is that correct or not? And that after the 3rd upgrade, I have to start proving I am a honest, paying customer or buy another copy. Is that correct or not? I'm just asking because I have read posts from Steve, Karen and Anthony and, quite frankly, they appear to contradict on a number of items. My advice would be for CL to appoint ONE person to answer the questions until this firestorm blows over. I know, it would be a terrible thing to do to a co-worker but maybe they could give them combat pay and an extra week of vacation. >>>Other replies by Steve Cooper and Steve Yatson have mentioned that besides emailing, you could also telephone for additional installs. I know you may want a clearer explanation about this, but the questions are so spread out amongst the different threads that the answers are as well. Hopefully this will become much more clear when they post the FAQ.<<< Well, again, I thought that the email and snail mail options were for those who did not have their machines hooked to the net. Not for additional installs past number 3. Again, am I misreading this? Again, though I disagree with you, I appreciated your time and effort in responding.

casamerica, ... You can register 3 times and then you will have to contact us. An email would do it. Or phone or fax or even snail mail. We're not trying to prevent you from using the product. In the case of 4 system upgrades in 9 months or the fifth, that is more than reasonable.<<< Okay, again, pardon me for sounding dense, but like I said it has been a heckuva day. Are you saying that the 4 upgrades or 5 upgrades is "... more than reasonable..." in the sense that, yes, it is acceptable? Or are you saying that no sane person in their right mind would be upgrading that often and I must be the cyber-warez version of Blackbeard trying to pull a fast one? (Sorry, an attempt at levity.) >>>Again we haden't had a chance to get some of these details ironed out before this all started because it was "leaked" to the press before we were ready. It may be a matter of simply requesting a few extra just in case by emailing us. Or, if you're like most people you know at least a day or two beforehand if you're going to upgrade.<<< Agreed. In fact, I usually would know a few weeks in advance. Steve, I just do not want to have to jump through flaming hoops to use a program I have purchased honestly just because I have a new system I wish to transfer it to. I'm getting too old to jump high enough to not get burned. Additionally, what about removeable media? I do not currently use a removeable HD, but it is being considered.

casamerica, I felt from your past posts concerning this topic that your tone was hostile. Well, it becomes hard to decifer tone from text messages...and it looks like I misinterpreted that so I sincerely apologize.

I also apologize if I am issuing any 'heat' on anyone. I had questions on this new device, and I still have some. My support for Curious Labs is not unconditional, but I felt it has been necessary in these last few days. Some members are worrying about 'worse case scenarios'...which is fine, but other members seem to be leaping to the conclusion that these 'worse case scenarios' are facts. I don't think it is fair to accuse Curious Labs of practices they are not practicing and I am merely trying to point out that some of these exagerations are unfounded. In other cases, I'm just trying to point the people with questions to what the answers are. Maybe I'm not doing a very good job of it.

In my quote from Steve Yatson above, it was the "...emailing us for additional installs..." part that I thought would answer your question. At any rate, it looks like Steve answered it a bit more clearly. As I understand it, e-mail, telephone, fax and snail-mail are the processes by which you would handle both registering if you are not connected to the net AND getting authorizations past the 3rd automatic online authorization.

I believe/hope that everyone understands that I am not an employee of Curious Labs and that I do not represent them. My answers are based on what I've read from CL employees and reps in various posts that I have been following it very closely because I am concerned about this issue. Don't take what I say for face value. Verify it with the source. And by all means, wait for their FAQ or their official answers in writing before making your final decisions.

casamerica, I felt from your past posts concerning this topic that your tone was hostile. Well, it becomes hard to decifer tone from text messages...and it looks like I misinterpreted that so I sincerely apologize.<<< No apology needed, JK. It is hard to figure out a person's intended tone from mere words on a screen. And I do tend to use words and phrases with a bit of a "bite" when I think I see a wrong. And I think I see one now. But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. Anyway, thanks again for the reply. I do appreciate it.

Casamerica, I would consider 4 or 5 installs reasonable and would not want to prevent uou from doing that if needed. Removable media would be treated the same as any other app does. If there's components that are being looked for, you might be asked to insert the disk, or told that the drive is not available. I don't know how this would affect anything except that if I took a Jazz drive to another machine it wouldn't work, unless the OS and Poser app were both on that drive and the machine was booted from it. There's probably a little more to this than I know off the top of my head. The QA guys could probably offer more insight so I'll ask them to clarify. I can think of a few scenarios right now that I personaly don't know the answer to though.

Marque, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CL never sought feedback on the copy protection scheme. In fact, privately I'll bet that Steve would prefer that the discussion go away >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would prefer that publicly. :) I'd rather have everyone happy but it's just not to be. The very nature of what we are doing is obviously quite controversial. We thought about soliciting feedback publicly, and do have a very limited beta in place. We are also getting feedback on the protection from some larger production houses that have a lot of seats. But again the nature of what this is about is really what kept me from wanting to go public. Our plan is to release with adequate documentation, ramped up customer service, and basically to make sure everyone is well informed by presenting the information in a clear and concise manner right on the download page with the download links. We didn't get that opportunity. Unfortunately it came out this way and a lot of what has happened here was based on fear and misinformation.