sorry to say it and i have said it before but i detest outing and can't for the life of me understand why one member would out another to prove a point either in a forum or in private.

i would hate to have someone like that as a friend.

billy

Is it time for another round of cat pictures yet?

Kitties! ^^

awwww sooooo cute :wub:
and such a beautiful tricolor (which btw. is quite uncommon and actually a kind of interesting genetic phenomenon)

ok commercial break is over - now back to the arena :D

Not too uncommon here Hyper, we got em all over the place here in Texas..called Calico

And hey gang, lets remember to not tag forum posts with tags if they are not needed. Some members will not read threads that are tagged, and some threads may contain some helpful information that they may miss.

The nudity tag needs to be used only if you are posting an image with your post that contains nudity, or when you post a link to an image that contains nudity, language needs to be tagged if colorful, or offensive language is used in the post, and violence would be used in posts that contain images that are violent in nature, or the text itself is very violent descriptive text.

Thanks!

Quote - sorry to say it and i have said it before but i detest outing and can't for the life of me understand why one member would out another to prove a point either in a forum or in private.

 

I call it foolish, child-like immaturity, although the fellow with horns who is perched upon my left shoulder is calling it, "stirring the shit here just for their own amusement".

Quote - i would hate to have someone like that as a friend.

 

It's highly likely they never had a true friend to begin with.

shit stirring..nice phrase dreamer .

captain jack!..stop feeding my beastiality fetish with pics of younf underage naked cats.  i have to take a cold shower now....i'll take a nother long look at the little pussy later though mmmmmmmm.

billy

Quote - captain jack!..stop feeding my beastiality fetish with pics of younf underage naked cats.  i have to take a cold shower now....i'll take a nother long look at the little pussy later though mmmmmmmm.

billy

 

Well, you know... I aim to please. A little something for everyone, I s'pose. :tt2:

Quote - shit stirring..nice phrase dreamer .

Well, somebody has to do it.  Stirring the shit, that is.  It's a hard job...day in, day out...stirring the shit down at the shit-stirring plant.  I hear the graveyard shift is the worst, especially when the air is damp and still.

Quote - captain jack!..stop feeding my beastiality fetish with pics of younf underage naked cats.  i have to take a cold shower now

 

LMAO!  At least he's conscience of the TOS and made certain her breasts weren't visible, otherwise I'd have to report him.

Quote - LMAO!  At least he's conscience of the TOS and made certain her breasts weren't visible, otherwise I'd have to report him.

 

Whew! Saved by the skin of my fur...

Quote - Not too uncommon here Hyper, we got em all over the place here in Texas..called Calico

And hey gang, lets remember to not tag forum posts with tags if they are not needed. Some members will not read threads that are tagged, and some threads may contain some helpful information that they may miss.

The nudity tag needs to be used only if you are posting an image with your post that contains nudity, or when you post a link to an image that contains nudity, language needs to be tagged if colorful, or offensive language is used in the post, and violence would be used in posts that contain images that are violent in nature, or the text itself is very violent descriptive text.

Thanks!

 

'Kays, sorries 

And Capt. Jack that little kitten is absulutly adorable! It remindes me of one the  kitties we had when I was small who was also a calico and a mighty hunter.  Eventually she bore a litter of kittens, then after they were raised (she was a great mom, and was always trying to bring them into different closets and such to find the best possible nest for them) went feral.  She was the tinyest little thing too, but very tough.  She'd still come out of the brush to be fed every morning, then disappear again after being petteds for awhile.  ^^

I'm having fun, i was purposely trying to get Aikofan riled because i know how they are (it's two people for those of you who don't know).  But  I pissed them both off way beyond a joke.  

Now to speak seriosly on some of the commenters
"Fairies are expected to look young"....well so's anime.
Recent post...very recent but I don't fingerpoint.  And in Aikofan's defense the artist she pointed out hadn't posted in a very long time which is why she used that as an example and not  the other billion links i sent her.  It was all in good fun but the comments here really pissed her off (some of mine too..well maybe lot's of mine) so for that I apologize.  

Common sense in an uncommon trait and the topic is near and dear to my heart  but to end my bit in this, my official statement;

I think Renderosities bans are well intentioned but not even across the board.  I further think that a great deal of people were booted with little provacation, despite how many warnings because since they for the most part seem biased.  I think the Renderosity admins should clearly define what the Girl and Aiko are and keep those rules consistant across the board.  Permanent banning should be done when it made clear that an artist in intentionally trying to post an underage charecter and it is done in an offensive way (fairy posting would be safe since it's in that realm of un intentional and a lot of aniime as well not that the renders wouldn't be removed but banning...too far for any amount of time).  Having said this, I will comply with Rendo's TOS , if a render of mine is taken down, yes I will say that's stupid but....I will not try to atttempt to put the same thing up again (that would be intentional).  

That's my piece no go back to kitty talk, and I'l go back to perverted pigs!

Just for the sake of asking.. how long does it gernerally take after an image is reported to have it reviewed for violating TOS?

Also I have to say that I personally have stopped posting nudes of Aiko simply because I had images removed and was banned for 3 days for Aiko images.. some of which had no nudity but rather inferred nudity.. and one was wearing a lovely vine type thing that covered all her bits but I was told this was not ok.. although I see that it is OK in the marketplace.
  I will side with those that have violated TOS unintentionally and feel insulted and wronged by having thier images removed.  I have 5 children 4 of which are girls and 2 are now preteen so I am well aware of the predators and perverts out there.  NEVER would I think to post an image that I would feel to portray child nudity.. yet apparently I had..multiple times.. and the fact that some of the images had been up for months before they were pulled really irked me.  But what irks me more is that everyday I see images that most definately should be violating TOS if my images did.. yet they remain..over and over again I see it.
  Now I realise that going through the galleries and enforcing TOS is a HUGE job, not one that I would like to have either BTW, but I can see how frustrating it can be to someone who has images pulled to sit and go through the galleries themselves and wonder how some images can violate TOS and simialar images do not.

Reviews can take anywhere between 2 and 48 hours...and not all reviews end with the removal of the image. 

Again, if you feel that any image you're viewing in the gallery is a TOS violation, click on the "Report" button, and report the image to us. 

Or, we can all sit in here, and complain that there are images in the galleries that are TOS violations and nothing is being done about them.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we cannot possibly review 100% of the images uploaded to Renderosity on a daily basis.  We do, however, review the majority...roughly 1.5% slip past us.  And, yes, if you have an image in violation, we check the rest of your gallery, so we can remove all violations from one gallery at once.  I mean, why give someone 3 warnings when you can give them 1? 

Thanks Jen:)  I realise that not all images reported will end with a removal.. it is all in the interpretation (sp?) and I also realise that not every image uploaded can be viewed and reviewed.. the sheer volume of uploads eveyday makes it nearly impossible.  I was just curious as to how long a review takes.. just simple curiousity:)  And for the record.. I do use the report button and urge others to do so as well.. I dont use it often as I am not easily offended and respect artists rights to express themselves however occassionally I view an image that simply screams for me to report.  Have a great week!

I don't think other members should have the ability too "report an image" to begin with.

its the job of the mods and the site admins too police the gallery's, not the members. So I never report an image, even those I know for a fact violate the TOS.

What bothers me most by this is whole thing are the people who have been hurt, not just the artists who were banned and had images pulled but their friends, friends of friends and so on.  It's like a ripple effect in a pond.

 

I'm not debating the right or wrong right now, I just... It just makes me feel sad seening people I know hurting.

 

That's all.

**I wanted to point out that altho this is about A3...I see some photos that darned if they don't look like under age girls(*I'm talking young girls with 14 year old faces in braces)...nude...and yet this passes as ok? That is confusing as well. Because the rule is for Toon,Render,Photo>yet it does not seem to apply equally on many fronts. So the term "subjective" is not really a good one....sometimes it is so blatant, you have to think "What the..." I wish I had seen the image in question. To me the only thing that is offensive is bend-overs, crotch shots and penetration (there's a place for that, but not on a general audience site)! A fairy that looks like a young naked girl is a classic image (well if there is a sicko getting off on that....) I see no reason for it to be an issue, unless the pic is performing obscene acts!
Ariana    

Quote - *I see some photos that darned if they don't look like under age girls(I'm talking young girls with 14 year old faces in braces)...nude...and yet this passes as ok?

**

This absolutely would not pass...if you see images such as this, please use the report feature so the team can review it. Like has been said before, Renderosity has sooo many images being uploaded daily its hard to see them all in one day, and a few slip by us.

**

*Hello JumpStartMe2....I have to say that I agree with darth_poserus on this...it is not my job to be the site police, nor would I want to be, I merely mentioned it as an example of the inequity of the policies. But on this pic(s) (posted by a member who has been here since 2003 and had several pics simuliar to the one mentioned) I had another member look at it and they agreed that it was definetly someone who looked WAY TOO YOUNG, to be photograghed in the nude, there have been others...but both they and I agree...who needs the issue possibly haunting them? Plus there were several comments about how "Hot" they looked...if that isn't sic. But I brought it up to show that a clear rule of no nude A3...is much clearer than the current interpretations being implimented. Perhaps a closer look at the photo galleries would prove quite interesting to the staff, then worrying about nude A3's!
This is just my opinion.
Ariana

As has been stated several times in this thread we can not view every single image uploaded each day as the images uploaded in one day is large compared to the size of our team. 

And please if you see something that  appears to be underage nudity posted, I urge you to report it not to just let that sit. Its not about policing its to help ensure that there are no underage nudes posted here that we might have missed. Especially if we are talking about real photos, I don't know how you could see it and not feel the need to report it so we can remove it if it is indeed deemed to young??

No problems at all, we don't require members to report images, but we do give them the opportunity to do so.
Also, we review the Photography Gallery as well as the others..so we're not only looking at Poser and A3. {and I dont recall a rule stating there are to be no nude A3?}

Members might see images that might cross the TOS line in the galleries, but its not necessarily still there because we let it pass, it could just be that it hasn't been gotten to yet..

The team goes through the galleries on a daily basis as was mentioned earlier, some larger, more active galleries such as the Poser and Photography galleries, are reviewed as much as possible in a single day because of the sheer volume of images coming in...

Its quite alot to cover.. so the ones that slip passed us, will eventually get looked at..{thats why you might see some images that might not pass the TOS that have been there for some time}

Not to mention some images that were posted a long time ago, also were posted before the new child guidelines went into effect, but I do recall members being asked to go through their own galleries and see if any of them would cross the TOS  after the change, so images wouldn't have to be removed, and so members could avoid getting into trouble...

All in all, the images will be looked at...it just takes time. ;)

Please try and keep in mind that the gallery has over 1million images in it and the Child Image Guidelines didn't go in to effect until a little over a year ago.  We, of course, could not go back through a million images so we did ask members to please go through their galleries and remove or edit any images that might be in violation of the new guidelines as Jump stated.  If an image was posted before 3/21/05 it was uploaded prior to the new guidelines going into effect.

Hi...I meant to say that 'No Nude A3's' is better than the current way it seems to be. Not that you had said that, jumpstartme2. I apologize if it appeared that way. No, to Stacy and yourself, it is hard, knowing when or IF to speak up. I have to say I empathize more with this artist's issue....because I know how it is. Doesn't change it, but what can you do. You know even Disney had nude fairies and wood nymphs in "Fantasia"! So I say, look for the intent, not the image per say. And IF the galleries are that closely watched that a nude A3 throws the site into a tizzy....how does the blatant stuff get over looked? That's all I was saying. I am not foolish enough to lay my head on the chopping block...but if you look, there is a hand on crotch thumbnail there now. So if that was passed by for some odd 9 pages...it just isn't worth saying anything I guess. I only posted to air my opinion. Not to take on a cause.
Do what you will, I don't play with A3 much anyway.
Ariana  

i know if i saw a photo of a naked kid aged around 14 i would not only report it to rendo but to the authority thats deals with that kind of stuff. 3d images i couldn't give a crap about but a photo is of a real person, thats affects me morally. to pass it over  without reporting it would make me feel dirty. jmo

billy

Also, something to remember with photos....we can get a physical model's ID.  You can't do that with a mesh.  We've had some photos where we thought the model was underaged, the photographer sent in a model release with ID, they were of age, the images stayed. 

I'm not going to hop back on my "there's no way humanly possible to monitor each and every gallery image" thing again.  The only other thing we could do would be to go to a submission-based gallery, meaning that we approve images before they go into the gallery....and that would very much alienate the 99.9% of the members who have never come close to violating the TOS.  Not fair to us, not fair to you guys. 

So, you can sit there and whine that there are images in the gallery that violate the TOS and NOT tell us what you're talking about (because none of us have ESP), or you can click that little "report" button, tell us why, and send it in.  The only people that read them are mods and coords.  (Admin can, but have no time to be policing galleries)

I like the "intent" thing discussed.  Yes, some may be iffy and in those cases...yeah take the offending pic off...but to ban?  Only the blatent offenders should be punished.  Most of the time you can see the intent, but I thinks (yes I put an "s" on think) that no one really looks at renders with the Girl and Aiko for "intent" if it's not posted in the fairy gallery. 

No offense to the fairy gallery folks...I love what they do with aiko and fairy gallery means hmmm let me guess fairies, now a naked pic of Aiko in Poser and People or realism that looks underage...well hmmm let me think on this one.  

Anime and Manga....hmmm.  I don't know.  I'm very glad the mods are here because some things really shouldn't be allowed but I know of three artist here who are here and the "intent" was definately "just posting" with the Girl and Aiko but in the end...

I hate reading this topic because I think it's silly (not the subject at hand) because in the end it's a discussion that leads to nothing...nothing is gonna change, but still I read and still I type.

Everyone having a very funky day!  :)

Hi sorry was gone all nite...Hey JenX, I am not "whinning" and neither is anyone else...I merely pointed out that there are inequities all over. So the easy way to correct the "A3 looks like a prepubescent girl syndrome" is to say no nude A3's...saves confusion and any misunderstanding. The reason certain other galleries were mentioned, is to illustrate that a nude A3 is the least of our concerns, at least from my perspective, and I am sure most others...
When I see a nude A3, I don't think little girl...I think Anime Character, that isn't real looking to a large extent. So child porn visions have never come to mind on that character. Now if A3 was depicted doing something crass or lewd AS a CHILD, well that would be different.
So all comparisons were on a subjective basis...if Ren can be subjective, then so can I. It was a way to illustrate what seems more important to me, relatively, and it is an opinion, which is not to be confused with "whining".  Lastly, I agree with cruzin, this leads to nothing and served only to divert the original question/issue.
Ariana

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

Bans are only given after the member repeatedly violates the TOS:

Members/Users found practicing these behaviors receive;

Deletion of the post/s.

• First event - warning by email and/or IM.
• Second event - Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days.
• Third event - Membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked. This includes any duplicate accounts for the same person. Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/tos.php

> Quote - **Hi sorry was gone all nite...Hey JenX, I am not "whinning" and neither is anyone else...I merely pointed out that there are inequities all over. So the easy way to correct the "A3 looks like a prepubescent girl syndrome" is to say no nude A3's...saves confusion and any misunderstanding. The reason certain other galleries were mentioned, is to illustrate that a nude A3 is the least of our concerns, at least from my perspective, and I am sure most others... > When I see a nude A3, I don't think little girl...I think Anime Character, that isn't real looking to a large extent. So child porn visions have never come to mind on that character. Now if A3 was depicted doing something crass or lewd AS a CHILD, well that would be different. > So all comparisons were on a subjective basis...if Ren can be subjective, then so can I. It was a way to illustrate what seems more important to me, relatively, and it is an opinion, which is not to be confused with "whining".  Lastly, I agree with cruzin, this leads to nothing and served only to divert the original question/issue. > Ariana**

So....the best way to deal with the issue is to pre-empt the situation by punishing everyone...in advance?  I still don't understand that line of thought.  The only thing we expect of our members is to take responsibility when it's necessary.  If you cross the line, and make you aware of the line, we expect you to not cross it again. 
As for the original question/concern.....we got it taken care of.  Primal was given a warning when he was supposed to be given an "education of the TOS".  We apologized and removed the warning from his record.  So...no, we haven't diverted anything.  We corrected the mistake made by staff, and stick by our TOS. 

Also, you'll note that not one staff member states that any images that have violated the Child Image Guidelines are "Child Porn'.  That's not up to us to decide.  What is up to us is to decide what does and does not violate the TOS in any way, shape, or form.

And, finally, not to sound derogatorry or bitchy, but when someone complains that something breaks a rule but won't tell us where it is...I consider that whining, and nothing more.  It's finger pointing, blaming, and something I have worked hard to teach my 6-year-old not to do. 

Hmmm...I just commented on this thread, I didn't originate it, I also was not the first to bring up the "child porn" comparison. please remember to be nice to your members as input is just that, input.
"And, finally, not to sound derogatorry or bitchy, but when someone complains that something breaks a rule but won't tell us where it is...I consider that whining, and nothing more.  It's finger pointing, blaming, and something I have worked hard to teach my 6-year-old not to do. 

---

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
I'll assume that I am not the only person that you are reffering to in this comment. But I brought up valid points. BTW, no one said to punish anyone, but to have clear guidelines
so that the A3 confusion is resolved. So please refrain from making this issue about me. I merely pointed out the obvious. It is up to Ren to do what it will do. ThanX!
Ariana

No, you're not the only one who I was referring to in that comment.  If you read all 14 pages of this thread, you'll find multiple instances of "but they broke the rule, too!!" style finger-pointing.  You just happened to be the latest to post it. 
As for guidelines (which I've linked to twice on this page) we have them spelled out for you guys.  The problem is..when people have questions about the TOS, they don't just ask "Well, hey, can you explain this guideline?".  They cross the line, then complain that the line wasn't clearly marked from the beginning.  We've marked it as clear as possible without having to go and mark out every single thing that could possibly get you in trouble. 
For instance, we could make a rule that would get rid of the word "bitch" in forum postings, because it can be used as a personal attack.  My post above would be a TOS violation, even though I was pointing the word at myself, simply because it contained the word.
I know that isn't a clear enough picture, but really, if we ruled that all Aiko images were to remain clothed, we'd have to get rid of thousands of images where Aiko is not only in the nude, but appeared to either be a realistic adult woman (of any race, but most often Asian descent, who do tend to look young all of their lives) or toon adult woman. 

We can't ask you for her ID.  She doesn't have one.  And people can joke about that all they want.  If it was a photograph, we'd ask for the Model Release, with signature and ID.  If we didnt' get it, it would be removed.  Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury with 3D models.  If it doesn't look of Legal US age and appears on this website in the nude or in provocative clothing/poses, it's got to go. 
All we ask is that people actually read the TOS that they promised to go by when they signed up.  Nothing more.  We don't want your firstborn child, you can keep both of your kidneys, and I believe everyone's soul already belongs to DAZ (kidding).  Just be responsible, and follow the rules. 
On the same token, we do expect to be called on it when we do something stupid.  As we did earlier in this thread, we rectified the mistake made against Primal.  He called us out on it.  We fixed it. 
But, the repeating that we need to make an "All Aiko's are under 18" rule is not fair to anyone in the community.  Like I've said before, probably in other threads, out of the thousands of images that are uploaded on a weekly basis, roughly 10 images get removed.  It's not like we're out looking to pull any and all images that we feel might possibly be thinking about pretending to violate the TOS.  If it's a violation, we remove it.   If it's the member's first time, we educate them on our TOS.  We don't have to do it that way.  We could just out and out ban people.  But, we actually like you guys.  We're not raging a-holes.  Most of the time.  ;) 
However, if it's the member's 4th time, and they STILL refuse to listen or follow the TOS, then they do get banned.  It's a hard fact of life.  They leave here screaming about "rights" and "freedoms"....with every right or freedom comes responsibility.  If you have these images you've made, and you want to post them, but every site with a gallery says no, it's time to buy your own server or server space to host them.  Our rules are no stricter than many other gallery sites...in fact, much more lenient than some. 

Just to play devil's advocate on the part of the "finger pointers", we live in a society of finger pointers and that's a good thing let me cite examples:

The American colonist were upset because of unfair taxes and said "Hey if those guys in England don't have to go through this stuff, why do we?"

Woman said if men can vote why can't we

Blacks said how come it's wrong for me to use this door when all the whites can?

I guess that makes them all 6 year olds.  The cases cited a little extreme in comparison to the subject at hand...yes but it does illustrate my point.

Primals warning was taken off his record only because it was aired here...but those in the past that feel they have been wronged may have tried to state their problems in private but since it wasn't aired out...they're gone...at another site I've seen renders of a few people who were banned here and when I posted that they should email the mods, I recieved more than a few saying they had (and not in the nicest ways I might add).  I don't know them personally but one I do, I've seen what caused all his 1st, 2nd, 3rd nd 4th time, the first one was very much in violation of the TOS, and he admits it was his mistake (a woman being cloned in a tank...but not at the age of maturity yet), the second time he agreed what it the mods thought it looked like, I think it was a stretch...the last two...heck no.
You probably already got an email from him so I won't beat that horse, but 6 years?  Thank God for em!

Primal's warning wasn't taken off because he "aired" here.. If he would have contacted the admin email address about the warning itself (cause the image should have been removed so that didn't and wouldn't have changed) and I would have researched it when getting his email like I did when seeing it posted here, the same outcome would have occured. The warning itself shouldn't have been issued in the first place so regardless of how it was brought to my attention, it was a mistake that was rectified.

I want to say (and trying to say this as nicely as possible) that since no one but the team can actually see a members history, how do you know that the "banned' member(s) is giving you all the facts exactly as they occured?  I guess what amazes me from time to time is that I have seen someone continually violate our TOS end up getting banned because of the continual disregard for the guidelines and then a member will come in upset about what we have done and  say "Oh they only had one warning and got banned...................." but when I go look at the member record its like a mile long with all the notes there to know exactly what happened, when, why, etc... So sometimes you may only get the story someone who is upset and bitter wants you to hear:(

We really truly do NOT like to hand out warnings, remove images, give bans, we don't like it at all. We truly do try and work with a member that is willing and we ban when its clear that the person is not going to follow the guidelines that they agreed to when joining..

Quote - Just to play devil's advocate on the part of the "finger pointers", we live in a society of finger pointers and that's a good thing let me cite examples:

The American colonist were upset because of unfair taxes and said "Hey if those guys in England don't have to go through this stuff, why do we?"

Woman said if men can vote why can't we

Blacks said how come it's wrong for me to use this door when all the whites can?

I guess that makes them all 6 year olds.  The cases cited a little extreme in comparison to the subject at hand...yes but it does illustrate my point.

Primals warning was taken off his record only because it was aired here...but those in the past that feel they have been wronged may have tried to state their problems in private but since it wasn't aired out...they're gone...at another site I've seen renders of a few people who were banned here and when I posted that they should email the mods, I recieved more than a few saying they had (and not in the nicest ways I might add).  I don't know them personally but one I do, I've seen what caused all his 1st, 2nd, 3rd nd 4th time, the first one was very much in violation of the TOS, and he admits it was his mistake (a woman being cloned in a tank...but not at the age of maturity yet), the second time he agreed what it the mods thought it looked like, I think it was a stretch...the last two...heck no.
You probably already got an email from him so I won't beat that horse, but 6 years?  Thank God for em!

 

fighting for racial equality isn't finger pointing lmao. nor is fighting for equal rights in the country you reside in. outing someone who put an image in the gallery to prove a point is.

lets remember that no ones perfect. people make mistakes. i know first hand that a warning given by mistake or over exuberance or out of sheer frustration on the mods part do get removed without having the need to air the fact a warning was recieved in public. in truth it changed my way of thinking about how i was acting. it may not always be the case that something can be sorted out behind the scenes but to say it can't is a misnomer. at the end of the day if getting a warning or an image taken down isn't the end of the world. and if  the way i was treated is anything to go by then i think undrer the circumstanstances the mods and admin do the best they can. that said even the mods are human (i think) and can be pissed off to the point that being unbiased isn't an option. cut them do they not bleed?

billy

Billy if you took my whole "you're not american if you're not finger pointing" seriously, it was an over exaggerated point...in fact I said it was.  I think you think that because you don't support the troops!  That's messed up, that's really messed up.    Ok you can chuckle now.

Stacey, I know that a lot of the time people give their story and not the whole story and there are times I doubt the validity of people I truly do trust when things seem to be so one sided, especially when it's just seems hateful.  So some of the stories I see on other sites I raise an eyebrow and really wonder what is the true story and not HIS story.  

Since I work with one of the banned and at one time with Aikofan (well the husband half) and know the guy, I can make a pretty fair assesment of the validity of his points but as do all people we joke and when I say something like "banned for making pictures of naked kids"  it strikes a nerve in him.  When he was first given the boot, I look back and watch him type furiously on his computer or he had me proof read his replies to Karen to ensure that he wasn't being to harsh with his words.  

Of course there have been replies made without me proof reading and I never saw the first render of his that was taken down but that's the one he admits that it was wrong, not his intent, but a naked child is a naked child no matter what the context.

He's done with the issue but I can see what his point was.  My stance is, it's your site and you all are free to ban whomever you wish.  Would I like to see BLANK come back and BLANK, and let's not forget BLANK AND BLANK too, but rules are rules, two tears in a bucket.

You guys are doing a C + job policing and punishing TOS violaters (you miss a few...hey your human so I can't give you an A  and sometimes I think you're a little more harsh on others so can't give you a B) but hey C+ is good, it's average.

Oh yeah, I don't think you support the troops either Stacy and that's so very, very messed up! LOL

Where did support of our troops come in exactly?? And personally I can say I think my fellow teammates do alot better job than a C+....its a rough, and sometimes thankless job they do every day.

"Once more into the breech my friends!" Rick Hunter, Robotech (and some other dude who said it first)

Okays.  All this is going to be off the top of my head.

First off, I'd like to say a few things to those who might not think I'm qualified to speak on this seeing as how I haven't (up till now) used any nudity in my renders let alone A3.

I grew up on Anime.  Not only on cartoons popular at the time, but also more classic anime works since the local video stores had a fair amount of anime in their libaries.  I cut my teeth on the net going to different Anime sites, and ended up a Moderator for awhile at one of the biggest.  So I know Anime quite well actually.

Some people have raised the issue of a possible unfair bias towards anime characters and works.  While I doubt highly that anyone is acting out a concious bias, I would like to point out that in my exerience there is are typically speaking two types of people in regard to anime: Those who like, love, or at least understand it, and those who are generally disturbed, repelled, or just plain uncomfortable with the it.  I've spoken to a number of artists, some quite well known proffesionally, who can't get their heads around either the appeal of anime that swept the US awhile back, or in some cases recognizing it as a genuine art form.

Now in relation to the "age" issue.  This has often been a problem when dealing with people unfamiliar with the genre as well as with those in what I sometimes refer to as the "anime mind-set".  Why is this such a point of confusion?  Well it's simple really if you stop to think a bit about it and have alittle familiarity with the subject, beyond "Ya I've seen a few images and or movies so I'm some kinda expert" type of stuff.

Traditional anime characters tend to share a number of commen traits, male or female, young or old, good or bad, blah de blah blah.

1. The heads of anime characters are traditionally alittle larger then the "realistic" genre characters.  The eyes of course are quite a bit larger then normal, often dominating the face.  Noses on a great many of the characters as well as mouths are often small in comparisson although those are not a constant.

2. While it varies, depending on the particular type of character and their role, the standard anime body is going to be alittle smaller then your realistic characters.  When keeping everything in proportion (limbs, hands, feet, etc) and combined with the larger heads this tends to give anime characters some of the characteristics one would commenly associate with young children or babies, IE overlarge eyes and heads, small bodies, etc.  All this is for baseline characters, if you look at the starting models for A3 and Hiro for example you will see many of the traits I just described as they are meant to be traditional anime style characters, so I think right away for people not familiar with anime, and perhaps even with those who think they are there is a unconcious association by many with youth because of these inherant qualities.

3. Now, what are some of the best ways to judge the approximate age of an anime character, given the handicaps I've just mentioned in that regard?  With extreme youth and or old age it's of course fairly obvious I think.  Children will have smaller bodies with of course none or few signs of puberty depending on weather or not they are pre or in the mist of adolence.  They will of course usually be smaller then adults, even in the case of highschool and or college age characters a great many artists and animators make a overall height and size differance between that and a fully adult anime character.  With old age one would look for things like wrinkles, a generally smaller body (alot of anime characters of very old age are typically debicted as being somewhat shrunken although not always) and so on.

Now in terms of overall body apart from the general size.  As a general rule, although it does vary a bit depending on the artist, body development is one of the key factors in debicting age differences from person to person.  In both men and women this will traditionally take the form of muscle and tone, general development of characteristics associated with the person's sex, and at times (although this is not a constant) various skin indicators although and I stress this not pubic hair.  Many anime artists don't traditionally include any form of pubic hair on the body not only in the genital regions (which used to be illegal if I recall right I'm not sure if it still is) but on the body in general the only real exception to this being facial hair or stubble for male characters.  I bring that last one up because this is one of the traditional signes most people tend to associate with physical and or sexual maturity.

1. Now in terms of face.  This is where, I think alot of folks are going to run into trouble, both artists and people judging it for underage content alike.  Why?  Partially for some of the reasons mentioned above in terms of traditional characteristics associated with youth, but also because of the "anime mindset" vs the non-anime one.

Okay lemme try to explain.  There has always been this weird area in anime from about begining high school age all the way up through college into roughly the mid to late twenties where the primary indicators of a person's age, sex, social postion, proffession, etc. are all done through the use of body type and development, hair, and or clothing in terms of establishing individual identities.  The primary use of different facial types has been to futher that sense of identity but typically is not a good indicator of a person's age.  That may not be what most of you want to hear on either side of the issue, but that's what traditionally and fairly universally has been the case.

And if you think I'm full of it, try this little experiment.  Take a character that is traditionally considered a young adult anime character, take out the hair, leave the head entirilly alone excepting to remove something like heavy make-up, but use a young morph or something to get rid of alot of the more mature aspects of their bodys, slap a younger style hairprop on them and maybe put them in younger style clothing and I think you'll see what I mean.  Or do the process in reverse by giving a somewhat younger character a more mature body, make up, more traditionally associated older style of clothing and hair, and again I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

Why is this so important?  Because I think it speaks to the heart of the issue at hand and underscores one of the fundemental differences between the anime and non-anime mindsets.  Most people who have a vast experience in the field are going to be coming from the "anime-mindset" which is they are going to look at the traditional indicators I outlined above in making and rendering characters and see them as being well withen the adult age range.  So they are going to post the renders they make, some dibicting nudity or suggestivness or whatever in the honest belief that these images are well withen the confines of the TOS because to their mindset all the indicators that the character(s) are in the adult age range are in place.

Now by contrast, someone with a non-anime mindset (that does not mean complete unfamiliarity with the subject by the way) might well look at that same image and say to themselves, (for example) "The person(s) in this image could be viewed as eighteen, but they also could just as possibly be sixteen or seventeen which concerns me" which is understandible.  So the image or images are brought to the attention of a panel of some, I think they said fifty odd members or so all of whom have to now decide if the image in question is or could be construde as dibicting underage nudity or sexual suggestiveness or whatever and vote on it.

This by the way is something I think seems to get lost in the translation alot here, it's not always the absulute opinion that the image definatly is dibciting a character that's underage, but the possibility that the character COULD be seen that way.  And I think most of the folks deciding things are probably choosing to air on the side of caution there, the reason being bluntly that yes it's going to upset some people, some are going to leave, or protest or be banned for continuing to post images they believe are perfectly acceptable, but in comparison to loosing the support of the companies, its from a practacle standpoint what has to be done for the sake of survivalbility.

But for some one coming from a traditional anime mindset it can be hard to grasp at first, or sometimes at all.  Until this thread came up, for example, I once again coming from years of being steeped in anime never even thought to raise the question of A3's exact age.  In my opinion the default character with no morphs at all applied would be perfectly believable as anything from a age range of about mid-teens all the way into the mid-twenties range, which is where alot of the traditional main characters of alot of anime seem to fall and where I think the creators intended her to be, IE she was built to be versital.

Now some folks other raised the issue of anime vs. fairy art and the possibility of a bais.  Is that a possibility?  I don't know, one could make the arguement that since fairys are one of the traditional fairytale type creatures introduced at an early age to alot of people that many have come to associate that type of art with their own childhood innocence and so are somewhat drawn back to that mindset when viewing those images, making them less likely to see the characters as children because they remember seening similiar creatures themselves when they were young and thinking of them as older and more mature then themselves.  That's possible I suppose, although not neccessarilly the case.  

I mention this because this thread caused me to think back on many of the old animes I watched growing up and it was funny for example to suddenly come to the fact that for example the characters in Sailor Moon whom I always saw as older are by now actually younger then I am having remained the same age as I grew older. So what I'm saying is that unconciously some associations may play a part in everyone's perceptions.

I hope this will give everyone something to think about.  I've tried to take the time to break things down a bit and come up with some possible explantions for the differences in perception and opinion based on my small knowlege.  I don't pretend to know what is in anyone's mind, or who they are so think of alot of this as speculation and opinion, but I think the parts in there about anime vs non anime mindsets might not be completly without merit.

There are alot of factors and a great deal of discussion and hard thinking that often go into alot of what a moderator can/cannot and will or will not do on big sites like this one, and no it's not at all easy to be the one making those choices.  It's also to be on the otherside of things, and have one's work judged, censored, removed, etc. when you can't personally understand how someone could look at the image and see what they say is being debicted.

One last thing.  I understand the frustration alot of folks most be feeling right now when people say that they will not willingly report something they themselves think might be a potential TOS violation or offensive image.  From a average member viewpoint though I think alot of people are uncomfortable sitting in judgement in that sense, especially those whom have had either their own work censored or those of their friends and seeing some of those people (rightly or wrongly) banned.

From someone who has walked a mile in the shoes of a moderator on a major site, and also who has gone down on a few sites fighting for what I believed to be right, I've seen this kind of thing from alot of different angles.  At the end of the day and however it goes, there aren't going to be any winners in this, and everyone is going to have to just suffer through it, muddle along the best they can, and that's kinda the way it is.  No happy endings, no parades for the conquering heros, no graves to mark the fallen or testiments in stone.  Only silence.

whoa! and Bravo!  You know I never thought of it that way, I don't consider what I do true anime but more of an american anime (which is developing it's own unique flavor) but still the same anime mind set rules apply.

Body type and size is how I determine the age and it does fit in the anime mind set rules you've talked about...hopefully that doesn't make me an artist. (Artist don't support the troops...LOL)

There is nothing wrong with C+, it's my opnion, a B is above average and A is Superior, if I were to grade it on this thread I'd give it a D-, because you're trying but I see nothing but everyone spining their wheels....but I know the pains and how hard it is to be subjective...so C plus is what I think at this point in time.  A lot better that what I thought a few months back let me tell you.  And just for asking the question....you don't support the troops! Shame on you!

LOL...the support the troops is just my funny phrase of the week, if you don't know where it comes from you won't understand but trust me it makes me chuckle, Democrats wouldn't get it because they don't support the troops.

The problem is of course though that Aiko can look as real as any of the other millenium figures particularly in her realistic format.
The other problem is that there are vendors who produce morphs and textures for her that make her look very young in the face.

I don't consider those problems, it's how the artist chooses to use her is where the problem lies.  
If you take the effort you can make Aiko look really, real, right now I'm a fan of thorneworks and if you look in my gallery you'll see, she has a "anime feel" about her vice real using the stated above morphs. 

To CrimsonDesire:

 

As one who comes from the "Take it or leave it" crowd, when it comes to Anime, I must say that your post was not only very informative, but well presented, and obviously comes from one who has had significant experience on the subject.

 

Thanks for bringing that experience to the table.

 

Well done.

 

Tom

 

"2) While it varies, depending on the particular type of character and their role, the standard anime body is going to be alittle smaller then your realistic characters.  When keeping everything in proportion (limbs, hands, feet, etc)"

whilst some anime artists like masakuzu katsura depicts the body with normal proportions most depict them with longer thinner limbs and shorter thinner torso. masakuzu who's a genius of anime dos so himself at times. he also depicts his characters as being of school age, anywhere from juniot to college age. most of his high school characters are high school based and often depicted naked. unlike many anime artist a lot of his charcters faces are proportional many are out and out anime. most anime charactures are clothed in school uniforms. most are blatently sexual though virginal. not so as to lend themselves to the minds of dirty old men but more to the minds of young pople who are brought up to believe that sex doesn't happen till adulthood. it lets them know they can be sexy without being promiscuous.and many relate to it.

mindset or no we act on what we percieve something to be. to be told it means something else rarely makes our perception change. many anime characters would look under 18 if they were depicted nude, even to the young looking asian mindset. i have two asian step daughters who are into anime in a big way and having put the question to them .."what percentage of anime characters would look underage if naked" was told a "about 50%" i asked them what made them think that way and they replied,. "  body size...(torso) thigh size(definition) and the role they would have when clothed..ie schoolgirl etc the girls are 21 and 19" respectively. both are as close to anime experts as you could get. one creates anime comics for her college. suprisingly they both say breast size unless they're humungous has little to do with age depiction as having breasts is the asian girls dream lmao.  they're more metopohorical than real flesh.

often we percieve age by association. we see a figure in a school uniform that isn't a blatent adult and then we see the figure naked...because of this we often percieve the figure to be underage (18) 

as for grading the mods...i don't think we can...they either do a good bad or mediocre job of things. in general i'd say they do a good job. it's a big site with a lot of members someone is always going to be unhappy with them at times. thats just the way we humans are.
billy

Breast size...(the avatar takes over my mind..please forgive if I offend).   I think breast size is a good basis.....along with the overall render in question.  I like making bigger breasted anime charecters (Aikofan's biggest gripe with my stuff) because with a really cute face, it gives a cute/sexy look where it's not blatant sexual it's just fun.  When I do smaller chested charecters, I put extra effort into making them appear older, and try to have them clothed because small chest and cute face appears younger than 18 to the general mindset.  

Of course some say it's just men's particular perversion to render woman with larger than life breast but hey read that sentence over again "woman with larger than life breast"...breast a good indicator....yes, in my humble opnion, yup...good not great, because I'm sure some perv could put giant breast on Maddie and clothed or unclothed...I see that as just plain wrong and in very bad taste....key words "I see".

My biggest gripe with this whole thing is that I'm afraid to show breast in my renders and when you look through my gallery you will see me hit the nudity tag when there reaally is none because ot the material covering the breast.  I don't like being afraid to do something and posting it because of the charecter in question.  

Of cousre I can be tasteless too , but all in good fun. 
I think cause for banning is someone who post a blatent sexual image of a minor but that's hard to judge as well.

As for grading, ok, I give the mods a solid B, but I really think they should support the troops. None of them has said they have, they just say they haven't said they didn't...just messed up, mods, just messed up. LOL

Have a piggy day!

Can someone please explain to me why it is okay to show images in the market place of Aiko morphs that make Aiko look young - large eyes pouty lips no pubic hair etc etc and yet it is unacceptable to show Aiko using these morphs naked in the galleries? I think this is where some of the problems come into play. If these morphs are acceptable to sell here then some people will assume they are acceptable to use in their images.

I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole Bea but once again let me play devils' advocate.  For the most part in the market place they are only show casing what a particular product is capable of.  
I think it is understood in that realm that Aiko in that setting has no definitive age.  In the galleries artist will take that to the extreme.   The intent is looked at closely in the marketplace and in my opinion not at all in the galleries.

My biggest fear is that the mods say "Ok, Aiko is anime" and a slew of naked Aiko renders pop up that are just boobies for boobies sake and not "art".

Renderosity is by far the best place for Poserheads and should never be Renderotica which is another place for Poseheads but with a different angle to it.   

Mods, I think there should be some clear definition on Aiko and Girl. I'm trying not post names but a venor here used to have a wonderful gallery and now...the works with Girl are gone because of what?  

On the "report button" issue, yes it should be there, the mods are only human but if someone says "look at this" here, well they just publically stated something rather than whisper in someone's ear.  (Just got off the phone with Aikofan)  She pointed something out that she saw wrong here, she was blasted because everyone said she was finger pointing well then wtf is the report button....a coward's way to finger point.  Yet there were so many people who called her a six year old (Mods included) for being brave enough to say what she thought and that artist would know who.  What's the difference?   (yeah it was a long talk)

I now have read the entire conversation between a mod and a banned user, including his plea to be let back...and I can say, I'm sorely disappointed in the attitudes of certain mods but I am further disappointed by his giving up on the issue and for at least not voicing his opinion here since he has another ID and I know that he reads this.  

Cruzin

I personally don't think you can say its OK to have naked aiko anime or fairy images even if people don't see them as children if they look young. but I think that goes for any image using any figure. 
I don't do naked women images so it doesn't really affect me personally but I do think that the rules have to be more clearly defined. Just what is acceptable and what is not.
Personally I don't think an image should be acceptable in the Market Place but not in a gallery here. That's a double standard and it strikes me as wrong. Some day someone is going to say "But I used the exact morph and the exact pose that was in the Market Place (with a different background maybe) so why can't I post it here?"

The MarketPlace and Galleries are run by different staff.  However, if you've got concerns about any product being sold, the best thing to do would be to contact admin at admin@renderosity.com or the store staff at store@renderosity.com     The two are run by separate staff, and are each under separate rules (obviously stricter rules for the MarketPlace than the galleries). 

I do have one question, though....is the character in question nude in any MarketPlace renders, or does it appear fully clothed?  I only ask because I've fielded complaints in the past regarding underaged characters appearing in the Marketplace, only to find that the merchant did not render their character nude at all. 

Quote -
On the "report button" issue, yes it should be there, the mods are only human but if someone says "look at this" here, well they just publically stated something rather than whisper in someone's ear.  (Just got off the phone with Aikofan)  She pointed something out that she saw wrong here, she was blasted because everyone said she was finger pointing well then wtf is the report button....a coward's way to finger point.  Yet there were so many people who called her a six year old (Mods included) for being brave enough to say what she thought and that artist would know who.  What's the difference?   (yeah it was a long talk)

I now have read the entire conversation between a mod and a banned user, including his plea to be let back...and I can say, I'm sorely disappointed in the attitudes of certain mods but I am further disappointed by his giving up on the issue and for at least not voicing his opinion here since he has another ID and I know that he reads this.  

Cruzin

 

In regards to the "finger pointing" thing, the proper way to handle something you have concerns about is to use the report button or contact a member of staff by Site Mail or email. Its not appropriate to post it in the forums.

As to reading the entire conversation between a mod and a banned user, this is one of the things I was talking about in my previous post. How can you know that you have read the entire conversation? And you wouldn't know what is on that members record and the exact facts of the situation if you weren't directly involved??  There is no way to know exactly what and how things transpired unless you were directly involved.  It boils down to if a member is banned then they violated our TOS mulitple times and that responsibility is on them because ultimately its their decision and choice to not adhere to the guidelines. If they choose not to repeatedly then the final result will be a ban.