Attached Link: poor poser

I posted some light study work over at deviantart and got some anti-poser comments.

I like Poser for what it is.
I guess some people have to have something to gripe about...

The link contains mild nudity, btw.

The problem is, many "art" forums like that re for people to showcase 3d content tthey've developed themselves. In other words, they've started from scratch, and the image you see is the whole package.

There are many such forums for this type of showcases, and posting poser renders to them is kind of like showcasing a colorforms picture in an art gallery.

They are expecting to see a completly original creations, and people posting with other people's content or creations isn't "pure".

Stonemason posts in forums like that, but gets away with it because he is actually creating the content himself.

But that's still beating the old dead horse about the "make art" button in Poser. As you pointed out, other artists don't have to mix the pigments and carve the brushes themselves to do their images, so why do Poser artists have to be "pure" in their creations to be original?

There is prejudice and narrow minded people in all forms of art, photographers get the same complaints. I wouldn't try to explain or justify it since they aren't going to change their prejudices anyway.

Those kind of comments are artistically immature. They fall into the 'medium over content' category in my mind - that is, they concentrate on how the image was produced over what the image is about or its aesthetic merits. As has more or less been said above, tools are tools - there are very good tools and not so good ones, but in the hands of a great artist a piece of charred wood on a scrap of newspaper can yield fantastic results.
One of Pop Art's seminal images , 'Just What Is It That Makes Today's Homes So Different, So Appealing?' by Richard Hamilton (1956) was produced by collaging elements from magazine cuttings to make an entirely new image. Through this 'appropriation' of pre-existing elements the artist was able to construct a re-presentation of the world in which he lived; the aspirations of a moment in time of a particular culture. Had he gone to all the effort of producing all the elements himself by photographing or drawing/painting them, the artwork would probably have lost some of its vitality and reference to the culture to which he was referring.
The use of pre-made content for Poser or any other software app doesn't in any way diminish the credibility of the final composition IMO. In the example of a GC movie, there are hundreds of creators working on modelling, texturing, lighting and animation sequences. The main producers/directors couldn't possibly make all that stuff themselves - they would never finish the projects. But no-one would dismiss their vision as portrayed in the final movie based on the fact that they hadn't personally 'made' everything. It is important that the skills and individual visions of those who are responsible for all those aspects are properly credited and appreciated as well though.
No, these Poser bashing comments and purist attitudes are childish views IMO.

'Only the Sith deal in absolutes'.

in all fairness..most of the art I wind up seeing at Deviant Art is hand-drawn (sometimes good, sometimes...uh....;) and actually, now that I think of it, I haven't seen any Poser art there. Of course, there's so much stuff there (15 million piccys), that I'm sure I've missed it. It seems to be more for a younger (much) set than here..;)

I post some of my own stuff on my deviant art page and i havent had any jerkoffs talking shit to me yet but then again i know its only a matter of time.

You actually handled yourself quite well without sinking to a lower (his) level.
I do love the fact that you checked his gallery and offered to him what he did not offer to you...**constructive criticism.

**

Well... Things done completely froms scratch will probably always get little more respect then those where assistance of other models and templates etc is being used.

Sure, use of pre-made pieces may make a nice looking final render, but the underlying truth is that there are still pre-made pieces used. Some people will see past that and enjoy the final image, some people will focus on the fact that there are pre-made pieces.

Personally, I tend to do some of both... Depending on how much time I have, I'll model the whole thing myself, or if I have a limited time and want to create a piece to say something, I may resort to pre-made, pre-textured models.

...and unfortunately some people just don't express themselves in a very amiable and polite manner....

poser is anathema with elitist 3d geeks, because it democratised the practice of image creation via 3D software. prior to poser, 3D work was a rarefied arena largely limited to folks who would boast of ph.d.s and other scholastic trivia. hence, the introduction of poser heralded an era when anybody with a few dollars and a cheap computer could easily produce renders on his/her first day. whilst it may be true that the vast majority of said renders are not worth looking at, poser can now produce renders rivalling the most expensive software, in the hands of the right user with the right knowledge and experience.

Let me comment on this... my daughter has a deviant site, and she posts photo's on a regular base, and she makes the most beautiful things IMHO. And so she gets only the best critics. She does some postwork on the pictures in paintshop pro , but a lot of them are just pure. The subjects of her photo's are not made by her, not my dogs or my cats, the old mill around the corner, the dunes and the skies, It's just the kind of composition, the use of light and some luck I guess and hundreds and hundreds of digital pictures unitll she gets the right one. I don't see poser as something different:  I spent hours to make the right picture, try out lights, surf the internet to find that special prop or cloth I need, trying poses, expressions, tweaking material and yes sometimes I even make my own content when I can't find something or just because I like it. I'm not considering my work as art but I like to get some nice comments. I'm a skilled, professonal drafstman but the work I make is more craft than art. Sooo... if someone critisize anyones works just because he uses Poser and in the same the line tells he isn't an artist but only a critic, I will pull his ears off and tell he to get a life... IMO scum like that are the vultures of this community, always eager to pick someone..

i think this is the same dead horse as recording music with either digital or analog means...if you didn't know which one you were hearing you probably couldn't guess; if they were recorded correctly/professionally.

i didn't see you pic because it didn't show up for me. 
so with that in mind, if just pop a poser figure over a background and take a render and then post that pic...then it will probably look like it. there can be as much art inputted into a good poser scene as there would be with creating one from scratch...though with poser you are cheating somewhat. but who cares?
purist's.
that's fine, let the purist's think they are holy. if you create from scartch you are definately talented. 
but me, i think i'll cheat and still create some good art work.

oh and by the way...way to keep your head while the other guy was flaming; you scored lot's of points by that.

There is alot of stuff on deviant I dont care for, but there are some amazing works on there as well.

For poser related art, these people have some wonderful stuff I think.  There are more, but these two come to mind quickly.
(forgive me if they are members here,  I am still learning my way around here)

Fredy3D 
http://fredy3d.deviantart.com/gallery

Arwenone
http://arwenone.deviantart.com/gallery

Quote - You actually handled yourself quite well without sinking to a lower (his) level.
I do love the fact that you checked his gallery and offered to him what he did not offer to you...**constructive criticism.

**

It did take some restraint, but I was not going to feed a troll.

:)

Quote -
i didn't see you pic because it didn't show up for me. 

The pic was one of GND2 by blackhearted using IBL lights and no post work.
Was one of a series I did to get to know how Poser lighting looks.

I was doing side by side comparisons with Carrara and seeing how things played out.
Wasn't really meant to be art, in as much as an example of something other than the default Poser lights, I guess.

as usual, the most interesting question is: WHY? why do so many people have such a bad opinion about poser? i think they judge by what they see in the galleries. they see: - no shadows - glowing nostrils - deformed joints - hair cutting through the shoulders - clothes that don't even touch the body - flat primitives papered with hires textures - bad mapping - bad lighting - and, and, and. and then there's people asking switches to high voice:"is what we do 'art'?" back to normal by seeing this without knowing or having poser of course they think: "poser is crap and poser-users are untalented looners." the bad image poser has in 3d-ing is bound thight to the shit flooding the galleries. quality control could help. look at: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2670450 A. ps: IMO it takes three qualities to get "good" results with poser. one has to be highly skilled, highly talented and highly patient. most people with those qualities go for better 3d-apps as soon as they have the tin.

I's not so much I think about poser.. it's more about people posting poser renders in places that anticipate 100% original creations.

A good anology, is let's say you build a model. You customized the hell out of it, and came up with th best paint job in the world on it.

You take it to a model show, and win all sorts of wards and praise for it.

The you take it to the local museum, and display it as original artwork.. and you catch hell from everyone about that, but don't understand why.

It's very similar criticism that Andy Warhol got when hanging his "cambell soup cans" artwork in museums. Some people thought it was pure garbage and an affront to museums and the art community everywhere.

I'd have to agree with Gareee here, most of the folks complaining aren't "elitists" (though some are), instead, they're purists in the same vein as those who gripe about our Poser gallery being loaded with postworked images, as if that were a bad thing.  Granted, there are better ways of handling your lack of interest or low opinion of such work. Since Poser pays my bills I'm often happy to see well done images pop up mentioning Poser's use...why, even at CGTalk, an artist used Poser alongside other high-end/mid-range apps to do an illustration of some action figures in their boxes...got a CGTalk award and everything. The reason that's remarkable is that CGTalk is well known for its No-Poser stance on images submitted to its contests, so such praise when Poser is used is rare there. 

So now we all know that there are tons of folks out there with a low opinion of Poser. We should be asking ourselves what can we do to change that opinion? I think the first step is taking the time to visit renders from new users or renders where we see obvious flaws and help guide the artist into creating better work with Poser. We all know it's capable of great things, we just need to help others see that and the best way to do so is to help each other get better I think.

I don't think it's so much a "low impression of poser"

It's poser image creators presenting themselves in either the wrong venu. There are TONS of online image galleries that are are not showcases for original cgi creations. Post there instead of the ones that are all showcases for 100% original creations.

*'...though with poser you are cheating somewhat. but who cares?
purist's.'

*Cheating how? Isn't this idea of using pre made content being a cheat a bit purist in itself?

Way back before the first photograph had been developed, sometime in the 1650's or 1660's, a painter called Jan Vermeer was making paintings using a 'camera obscura'. This was a device that focused light from a real world scene onto a semi opaque screen as an upside-down image (apparently the first reference to this technology comes from the 5th Century BC!) It allowed the painter to inject a realism into his pictures that had  previously been rarely seen. Vermeer is acknowledged as being one of the 'Masters' of painting, and yet some have criticised the use of such devices as the camera obscura as being in some way 'cheating'. 
I wonder what such puritanical folk would make of the use of 3d software to make images, let alone the use of pre made content. It must be cheating.
Another example from art history. Many painters throught history would operate in studios or workshops with sometimes dozens of apprentices. These apprentices would perform such preparetory work as mixing pigments and oils into paint and stretching and priming canvases. Often they would even do much of the painting work itself, which was then finished by the hand of the master himself. 
Guess that was kind of cheating then.

The idea that all the elements that go into making a creative work have to be entirely made by one individual in order to somehow be valid is rediculous.  Computer hardware, monitors, software, content - they are all fantastic tools made by someone else for creators to use to make other stuff like images and animations. If you're using any of these tools, then by the type of argument made by the purists, you're 'cheating'.

"The idea that all the elements that go into making a creative work have to be entirely made by one individual in order to somehow be valid is rediculous. "

...and it IS.. unless you are posting in galleries and forums that expect to see original content posts. In many cases, people even post thier wireframe images along with the original image, to showcase the poly flow as well.

It's all context, and in many cases, poser users are are newbies, and just want to show off an image, and are oblivious as to where they post them.

Post a few lightwave renders in a Modo forum, or post some Max images n a lightwave forum, and watch the fur fly! LOL!

Thing is, in most cases, lightwave or max users have been doing cgi work for some time, and know not to cross post platform specific renders where they aren't appreciated, unless they are trying to stir up trouble.

Problem is we get a LOT of new users uneducated n 3D at all in the poserverse, and they just don't have that clue yet.

Yep, there's little point in posting in venues that are hostile to the work that you make (unless that is the point of your work), and education through constructive criticism is a great way to learn. However, maybe trying to boost the image of Poser isn't really worth worrying about too much. Many of the users of apps like Poser or D/S are casual hobbyists, and perhaps don't have so much of a drive to make 'fantastic' renders but do enjoy the making of what they can. Nothing wrong with that. These apps are still developing for this kind of market. If the users of Max (I use Max!) or Maya or Lightwave or whatever want to be snobby about it - let the babies have their candy!
Renderosity is a cool place to post too. 

Yep. And poser render tec has made huge advancements in the last few years.. I'm sure P7 will add to those advancements as well.

Course the "big boy" apps have also made advancements as well.

I think whe people see more of the Vue6I/Poser renders, they'll see more of the power available.

In the main points, I am definitely with Carodan on this.

I am intrigued by the comments about a camera obscura.   I think David Hockney wrote something on this a few years back and, as far as I recall, some of the response was fairly sceptical.   Back in 2001, there was a Vermeer exhibition in London and I was privileged to see what may be Vermeer's greatest picture, known in English as "The Art of Painting".   There is a rather small reproduction of it at

http://www.khm.at/homeE3.html 

(You then need to follow Picture Gallery ==> Holland: 17th century ==> Johannes Vermeer "van Delft".   You'll notice that the Vermeer is Vienna's prized exhibit.)

This picture contributes to the current debate in a somewhat double-edged way.    The text accompanying the picture at the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien website (i.e. link above) states unequeqivocally that Vermeer employed the camera obscura technique.   I think I am right in saying, however, that Vermeer's studio still exists and that there is no way that it ever looked remotely like the studio he painted;  this was a wistful joke, illustrating his dream, but also a demonstration of his skill:  patrons who visited his studio, where "The Art of Painting" was, no doubt, prominently displayed, cannot have failed to have noted that Vermeer had painted the setting from his imagination.

Probably, the only thing in the picture that a prospective client would find, when visiting Vermeer's studio, was the artist himself (and you only see the artist from behind in the painting, so you can't be sure that it is he).  The would-be patron would not have seen the neatly tiled floor, the bright, natural illumination, the splendid curtains, or the chandelier.   I doubt if the artist would have been so finely attired, either, especially if he was expecting to do any actual painting.    He also probably didn't own the splendid map which appears in the background of "The Art of Painting".

On the other hand, everything in the final painting was entirely at home in the Netherlands of Vermeer's time and Vermeer will have seen it, even if he had to go to the property of someone more prosperous than he to do so:  tiles, luxurious curtains, maps and chandeliers, the fine clothes that those in less precarious livelihoods could show off.   "The Art of Painting" is a tour de force of the artistic imagination, but it also shows how even the greatest artists exploit props.   If a "purist" says that he or she created every last item in a picture from imagination, one is entitled to ask, "Why?"

I find that my best art is created using brushes I've made myself, on home made canvasses.
I  pluck hair from the tails of wild horses, by the light of the new moon, and cut them to size using only a flint knife. They are then glued to handles made from the yew tree that grows in my garden, using the excreta of barnacles.  My canvas is woven by 15 blind virgins kept captive in my basement for this sole purpose.

Everyone knows that Poser has the infamous "Make Art" button and real artists would never even look at the box without a priest present, let alone put their name to an image created with it.

Not that I'm snobbish or anything... ~ROFL~

N.B. THIS IS A JOKE POST

That kid that attacked you was 17 and basically had no clue. Why are you letting it get to you? There's a lot of Poser work on deviantArt and it's well accepted as far as I can see. I would suggest though, the appropriate place to post your test work is in your "scraps" gallery.

There has always been a rift between some that use high end 3D software and model everything from scratch and Poser users. Believe it or not, we even have our share of "purists" and "elitists" right here at Renderosity! There are those that rail again postwork, those that condemn nudity, some that balk at violence, them that loathes fairies, and the list goes on...oh yes, it's true!  Best advice - focus on learning to use the tools you have to their best advantage and you can't go wrong.

I have not researched their policies so I gather that Poser art is allowed....

After all said and done...   This type of bad manered feedback goes clearly, in my mind, to a fuzzy conduct policies from the website managers...   If the people at Deviantart don't want Poser art,  let them push to get that written in some policy for all to see...   Otherwise, move aside...

It could be argued that it is anyones right of freedom to say what they want.... 
This is confused with truth, good manners, conduct and good hospitality... 

It is one thing to strongly critic someone's art, and another is to have the criticism personalized and pointed at the artist / creator of...  but then she did acknowledge to be a c--t.... 

Quote - I find that my best art is created using brushes I've made myself, on home made canvasses.
I  pluck hair from the tails of wild horses, by the light of the new moon, and cut them to size using only a flint knife. They are then glued to handles made from the yew tree that grows in my garden, using the excreta of barnacles.  My canvas is woven by 15 blind virgins kept captive in my basement for this sole purpose.

Everyone knows that Poser has the infamous "Make Art" button and real artists would never even look at the box without a priest present, let alone put their name to an image created with it.

Not that I'm snobbish or anything... ~ROFL~

N.B. THIS IS A JOKE POST

LOL, good one!
What cracks me up is that if it weren't for their whining and foul language, some of those 'real artists' wouldn't get noticed at all.  Maybe they should try Poser instead ;)

I should mention in all fairness that I'm a member at DA, but have never posted there, because I was under the (mistaken) impression that it was non-CG art only. Hmm...;)

Quote:"What cracks me up is that if it weren't for their whining and foul language, some of those 'real artists' wouldn't get noticed at all. Maybe they should try Poser instead ;)" What cracks me up is that if it weren't for this whining and foul language of those 'real artists', some of us wouldn't even know that there is more than just poser-'art'. Maybe some of us should try something else instead ;) A. ps: there's whining and foul language everywhere, except here, where the TOS protect us. and when the s..t hits the fan we can still run to the next mod for comfort. home, sweet home! i love it!!!

OMG, sorry to hear of the attack!

I personally thing until the world is ready to put Adam and Eve in check, with kickbacks from what the term "Origional Creation" is to everybody, in regard to the human figures, we should lay off of Poser!

/me thinks "....Red Headed Step Child?"...tsssk(...hehe.)

 Absolutely I would have to go with Slinger here. “Traditional art”.We are talking here obviously of purists and hobbyists. Yes hobbyist’s can take their work to further measures faster only because in Poser they’re “ready-can-packaged” figures.

Whereas the purist would create each and every polygon themselves from its very existence of thought.

It’s a “nulla contesta” …Poser is a not a true art based program on traditional basis. Not in so much as that it gives brushes to help you create. Just simply, here’s the human figure to do with as you will.

 This figure, although created originally by a true 3D artist, now this figure which is universally used derives turmoil from its very grass roots.

 Now hear this: The basic human Poser figure is a true work of art that has been distributed for easy access for all other artists who wish to enhance its popularity. In general, those artists which produce artifacts for already existing artistic figures are accessory artists. As if we were creating a cinema movie, each artist in his/her profession would contribute to the final image. But their contribution is not the final version. There are many other variations.

The person who first creates the human figure mesh and then clothes and poses it can claim victory over all others…wouldn’t you think?

 Go figure!

The mention of Vermeer reminded me of something I read of Caravaggio - it seems that research and experiment has revealed that he may well have employed the technique to project images onto his canvas, long before Painter and it's clone brush. This in turn reminds me how I've read posts at 2D galleries, where the painter claims to be the better artist because he/she doesn't use a reference image.

It's all a bit daft. People need to create images and artists & illustrators have always been putting bread on their table by doing whatever it takes to produce the image. Art is one of those words that just doesn't admit of a definate definition, when people try to pin it down they fail - it's a waste of time trying. Sadly, I must admit that Damien Hirst is an artist. That's not to say that we can't discuss the merrits of art, it just means that we have to discuss it in the right context relevant to it.

Keeping with the example of Hirst. With conceptual art, what matters is not the aesthetics, nor the practical tallents of the artists (most of them don't pickle their own sharks!). What matters is the idea behind it and how it is conveyed. Is it an interesting idea, has it been done before and could it be done better by other means? Does the presentation make us care?

*'Sadly, I must admit that Damien Hirst is an artist. That's not to say that we can't discuss the merrits of art, it just means that we have to discuss it in the right context relevant to it.

Keeping with the example of Hirst. With conceptual art, what matters is not the aesthetics, nor the practical tallents of the artists (most of them don't pickle their own sharks!). What matters is the idea behind it and how it is conveyed.'

*Why 'Sadly' admit Damien is an artist? Most art deals with concepts, as bound in the language of whatever medium is being used. Even if the artist attempts to escape the infusion of meaning in their work through the use of some random technique of production, they cannot escape the meaning inferred by the viewer. Art is a two way thing really. Take a medium like literature where concepts are absolutely key to the conveying of ideas and imagery.
Aesthietics is a similar beast in my mind. If one seeks to study or appreciate the 'beauty' of whatever you are viewing, you will find some avenue of percieving it - even if it is an affermation that something is 'not beautiful'. This is true of a Poser image as much as of a canvass in a gallery or a transient installation in the environment.
Personally I think Damien Hisrt's shark was considered aesthetically by the artist when he chose to make that particular work. I can't help thinking that aesthetics was a fundamental consideration to it's success as a work of art in fact. If you had a chance to see it when it was a new work, it was hard not to appreciate the awesome beauty of what was in front of you.
I think only the openness (or lack of it) of both artists and viewers alike of that which challenges their constructs or internal definitions of what is 'permitted' to be 'worthy' of artistic merit is the issue here.
That's what some of the 'better' (toungue in cheek here) artists seek to challenge at times IMO.

Sadly, because I find Hirst's work, along with many conceptual artists, to be somewhat dull. A purely personal assessement (and not intended as an attack) but I included it because I want to defend the inclusiveness of 'art' regardless of preference. Too often I've heard people who don't like this work say "It's just not art" - when it plainly is.

You are right, art does not divide neatly into aesthetic and conceptual or into any of the other catagories that have been invented for it. But I do think that the divisions exist, however fuzzy, with regards to the emphasis. It is also worth noting the distinction between formal and contextual beauty - ideas can have an aesthetic quality as well. People tend to judge art with regard to what they think the emphasis and media should be and so we hear people dismiss Hirst as non-sense, traditional art as irrelevant, or photography as a knack.

Hardcore metal isn't really music.
Short films aren't really cinema.
Opinion columns aren't real writing.
If you use anything premade, it's not really art.

What saddens me is that there are some well-respected artists making excuses in virtually every thread about this subject as to why Poser isn't well-respected.  It's a padded way of saying that those that look up to you and/or are customers aren't worth the effort.
Yes, Stonemason posts and writes tutorials at places like CGTalk.  I've never once seen him say something akin to "Yeah, well, Poser isn't really an art application, but thanks for trying!" 
As for crit about Poser work.......first of all, to post art of any media anywhere, one has to grow a thick skin, because you're going to be criticized.  That's one of those dirty little facts about life.  Second, look at who it's coming from.  If you're at least reasonably happy with your work, you'll be ok with it coming from anyone.  But, realize that age plays a factor in how crit is given.  A 17-year-old isn't going to be as tactful as a 35-year-old, just based on life experience (although there are adults out there that could take lessons from some of the teens know, lol).

I don't understand why there always has to be an "us vs. them" attitude, on ANY level.  CG on the whole is a very disrespected media at the moment.  Yet, purists, hobbiests, professionals, and students rip each other to shreds, simply because they can.

Also, using the excuse that "well, other people suck at using Poser, so you must, too!" for bashing poser work......doesn't fly.  Don't judge one person's work based on someone else's.  That would be like judging a Monet based on a Van Gogh, because they're both oil paintings.

On the whole I'm not overly keen on Hirst's work either. But in the context of the time I first saw that shark in the flesh so to speak, it was awesome. No picture in a catalogue or art history book can do it justice, as is often the case with art. There are times when I've been much less moved by Rembrandt or Turner paintings. Context and mood play their part too.

There is a pervading 'fuzzy' division of emphasis toward aesthetic considerations concerning the validity of art in many people's minds - but certainly less so than perhaps ten years ago. I see it more as a sign that the debate is alive and well than as a problem per se. Whilst people are able to react and debate what they're presented with, it means that they're thinking about it (in however sophisticated a fashion) and that it is in some way of importance in their lives. This inevitably has context with wider issues in people's everyday lives and helps to drive cultures on into the future, rather than stagnating. I think it only becomes problematic when artists are actually prevented from producing and exhibiting (doing their jobs), which does still happen for one reason or another and to a greater or lesser degree depending on what part of the world you're living in. 
There are always going to be divisions in how different people percieve and judge the same things. Some are new to the debate (young, inexperienced), some have views that are lost in predjudices that lie elsewhere etc. Either way, the debate is alive which is a good thing.

Quote - Yes, Stonemason posts and writes tutorials at places like CGTalk.

True, but Stonemason's posts and tutorial's revolve around applications other than Poser, most of them "high end". Stonemason isn't extolling the virtues of Poser, merely sharing his creative skill and craft.

Quote - But, realize that age plays a factor in how crit is given.  A 17-year-old isn't going to be as tactful as a 35-year-old, just based on life experience (although there are adults out there that could take lessons from some of the teens know, lol).

Trust me, there are some pretty tactless 35 year olds and older, as well.

Quote - I don't understand why there always has to be an "us vs. them" attitude, on ANY level.  CG on the whole is a very disrespected media at the moment.  Yet, purists, hobbiests, professionals, and students rip each other to shreds, simply because they can.

It's called "dfferent strokes for different folks". We even have that "us vs them" attitude here, among each other. Try starting a discusssion on nudity and watch how fast you get chastised for "beating a dead horse" let alone all the pro and con comments and accusations of "puritan" and "pornographer". We have Brycer's that can't stand Poser, anti-postwork Purists, Fae lover's viewed as pedophiles, and the list goes on. I've even had some of my work called gore porn, (which after some consideration, I'm kind of proud of). There will be closed-minded people where ever you go. It permeates everything, politics, religion, food, education, and yes...even art.
I am of the opinion, based on observation and experience, that most of the "so-called artists" that put down other peoples work are really artist wanna-be's that thrive on false bravado and suck up coment's and have rarely been given a true opinion of their own work. Some see themselves as master's of their tools, but rarely see the dull sameness of everything they produce because their ego's get in the way.

The best thing we can do is encourage those that deserve it, be honest to those that can take it, and grow a thicker skin and move on.

Yes - Poser is indeed the redheaded stepchild O' 3D.  

But it's hot and puts out, so I love it.

I am a painter of North West Cost Native art. I have attached an image that I have painted.  I get high praise for my paintings, really high praise.  I have sold paintings that I have done and have had them delivered all around the world.  The only problem is that I cannot sell them locally (I live in BC Canada, on the coast.) because I am not of native decent.  Does this make them any less native art? They can never get gallery placement either for the same reason.  I have seen native art that pales in comparison in local galleries, while they are good they are not as good as what I do.

I am not complaining though even though it sounds like I am, I just deal with it and paint them because it is what I like to do.  I use Poser as an end result because that is what I like to use (anyone ever try to bone a character using trueSpace LOL) 

This I have to respond to, as I get a lot of derogatory poser comments on an elfwood site that I have.

First, though i couldnt see your art due to the filter, the responses were just, uncalled for.  The use of explatives shows this person reeeeeally needs some anger management courses.

What i see happening, and sadly its true, is poser is affordable.  There are some that get their hands on it, and crank out "paintings" in less than an hour using ye ol' figure/conform to utility, poses out of free stuff, Koz hair, and so on and so fourth.

Now I think we ALL started like this, sadly new users however, the field and items are just OLD.  Been there done that....... you know what I mean.  In renderosity galleries, from what I've seen new artists to poser well, we're kind, supportive and totally GET IT, you start where you start, until you learn and do more.

Its the ones that use it, and never improve (I actually know someone who's used poser for three years and........ uses the same Koz hair on EVERY picture, the same skin textures, and has not after three years moved out of using poser's default lighting).  They use others figures, free or no, pop them out, and then sign it and classify it as an "original" peice of art.

Technically it is, however, ...... for those who spend several weeks or months in man hours inking a drawing or oil painting, .... even some who use poser as a base and spend weeks in hand painting details, clothes, hair and backgrounds, it can get rather disturbing.

Now I claim in my elfwood site right off the bat i use Poser and Bryce.......... heaven forbid!  And I get slammed for it most of the time, "well i hate poser, but for a poser render its nice".

Actually the term render, I find myself getting offensive about.  80 percent of some of my images I painted, they didn't  "pop" out that way.

Worse tho?  Do a travel around those sites, even deviant art, elfwood, so on so fourth, take a good look.   A poser user knows a poser figure no matter HOW GOOD the artist behind it is.  No matter how you mask it, no matter how you postwork it, its still a poser base......... yet they claim its not.  Those are the ones that really irk me, as if they'd just say, "yes i use poser", maybe people would STOP assuming poser is this "pop it in and render art in an instant" machine.  There is credibility in poser.

jeez, that's a bummer, odie, about the local painting sales. perhaps one of the indigenous groups has a ceremony by which yer inducted into their society. p.s. the old italian masters used the "camera obscura" on occasion. it doesn't tie in with poser at all, but larry w. originally wrote poser as a tool to actual artists who could actually draw already, who had already done life-drawing studies, but who didn't wanna hafta hire a live human model all the time.

Quote - What cracks me up is that if it weren't for this whining and foul language of those 'real artists', some of us wouldn't even know that there is more than just poser-'art'. Maybe some of us should try something else instead ;)

I'm yet to see someone whose art and skills I really respect and admire storm in here or to Deviantart or similar place and start whining and complaining about Poser or some pre-fabricated piece.  It's usually some hot headed immature little whiner whom took up one of the higher end applications, with a longer learning curve, and is frustrated that he/she is not getting immediate attention equal to to the effort he/she is putting in. Jealous of the response lot of poser images get. Whether someone considers them art or not. Very often it's some youngen that hasn't learned about lot of the birds and the bees of life yet.

This whole thing about attention and counting views and comments etc can be overrated too. I notice if I'm more active in the community, you get noticed more, but you get less time to devote to the actual work....   So, everyone gets to strike their own balance between time, technical skills, expression, social aspect... and other parts of life.

Poser is a helluva good app for what it is. It more than gets the job done. If certain 3d purists don't like it, let them get back to work on that bowl of fruit they're trying to perfect.

Perhaps some Galleries are in the need of a new flag beside Nudity and Violence that means:
Caution Poser images!!!
Anyway, we disgrace ourself as Poser Artists are always talk about "playing with Poser". I never have heard or read "I´m working with Poser". To play is childish and so nobody will take us seriously as long we are playing with Poser and Photoshop. Tell the world that you are working with Poser, Photoshop qo, and the world will change it´s mind  when time goes on ;-)

good answer, Conniekat8! ;) @fls13 aah, perfection...i see! on the one hand there's a guy who's spent sleepless nights to make this simple prop look perfect. the community ignores his work completely. on the other hand we have a guy who assembles some prefab meshes and textures in 3d-space, adds some prefab lights, moves the camera a bit and hits 'render'. the hit-meter is glowing red-hot. purist?

Quote - Tell the world that you are working with Poser, Photoshop qo, and the world will change it´s mind  when time goes on ;-)

I seriously doubt that, since the narrow minded will always find excuses to complain about it. It hasn't stopped the same thing in other media like Painters vs. Photographers, Hand drawn images vs. Digital images or other CGI apps vs. Poser. 

It's not a question of what tools you use, it's whether or not the results are satisfactory no matter how you arrived at them. But don't expect the narrow minded to give up their prejudice and recognize the difference.

This thread reminds me of a joke I just read in a coffee house paper.

A scientist goes to god and says, " We do nto need you any more, we can now create a person from dirt,  in your image, so you are obsolete."

God says, " OK show me."

So the scientist starts to make a pile of dirt and God says, "Hold on there...use your own dirt."

:)

Quote - good answer, Conniekat8! ;) @fls13 aah, perfection...i see! on the one hand there's a guy who's spent sleepless nights to make this simple prop look perfect. the community ignores his work completely. on the other hand we have a guy who assembles some prefab meshes and textures in 3d-space, adds some prefab lights, moves the camera a bit and hits 'render'. the hit-meter is glowing red-hot. purist?

It's just a fact of life... What's appealing to look at and draws attention is not necessarily something that is always the most sophisticated or technically advanced and most worth while in other aspects.  You know, like Paris Hilton or Brit... Sure, they're pretty girls and have glam lifestyle, but there are plenty of other things they don't have...  And there's plenty of gekettes out there that have 10 times the brains and class, but only 1/4 of the looks...  You can find the same dynamic in politics, sports, religion, workplaces, just about anywhere.... 
Any time someone neglects to focus on and develop their own qualities, and gets jealous of someone else being ahead of them, in some aspect or more gifted, or has a better tool or what not, that little flare-ups like this happen.

It's not about Poser vs. the other apps or the purists etc...  It's all about someone not getting the attention they thing they should be getting and then going about getting it the wrong way... or lashing out on some unsuspecting poster whom is learning their app of choice and getting some responses.

And frankly, you put a nekkid girl next to a bowl of perfect fruit in a roomfull of guys, the girl will get more attention. That's like... um... life 101.  If that angry poster on deviant was smart, he/she could have modelled something with more mass appeal I dunno, like a four-boobed girl from-two-doors-down kicking the Poser's girl next door ;)....  and it could have been art with a social commentary, and show off modelling skills at the same time, and even if they were expressing their discontent, at least the viewer could gain a tad of respect of creativity and skill etc....  But, some people's expression hasn't grown past lashing out and four letter words. shrug 

(PS. Nothing against GND, it just struck me as a potentially funny juxtaposition. )

Well, Poser is getting used for more mainstream work these days. I've seen it used to create cover art and article illustrations for magazines like The Scientific American and BBC Focus (and got myself DAZ vouchers for both of them).  No playing there - someone got paid well for those images. The Scientifc American in particular is well known for it's very high standards in it's artwork, if Poser can be used to produce images good enough for them, it's earned it's status as professional tool. Of course, it always has been one - but it's harder to deny it with those new credentials.

Quote - @fls13 aah, perfection...i see! on the one hand there's a guy who's spent sleepless nights to make this simple prop look perfect. the community ignores his work completely. on the other hand we have a guy who assembles some prefab meshes and textures in 3d-space, adds some prefab lights, moves the camera a bit and hits 'render'. the hit-meter is glowing red-hot. purist?

The second guy isn't the one going around and trashing people because they use Poser. Do I think some Poser users should try their hand at modeling, texture making, rendering in different apps? Sure. It's a hobby for me, and I like experimenting, but they can do what they want and if the render achieves its' goal, what difference does it make if they used Poser? Now get busy on that bowl of fruit, the peach isn't fuzzy enough.

@Conniekat8 in order to change our POV i browsed the galleries to find a good example: pls take a look at carib98's gallery. do you think this guy (lady?/AI?) would get that kind of comments for his (her?/its?) poser images in a non-poser gallery? @fls13 yawn