The model sold here... 
http://www.es3d.com/alien_scene.htm 
...is directly ripped off from the freebie here.... 
http://scifi3d.theforce.net/details.asp?intGenreID=19&intCatID=44&key=623 

A Narcissus as sold here... 
http://www.es3d.com/narcissuspage.htm
...can be obtained for free from here... 
http://www.lwg3d.org/v3/meshes.php?cat=35

OK, I downloaded the freebies, just to teach those evil Pirates a thing or two.  So, how do I import them now into Poser?
DPH

Those "Spells and Incantations" motion captures at that site.......
 I'm sure I've seen those elsewhere as well....

The 1st one is for lightwave 7 or 8. You'd need to convert them to .OBJ 1st. 

es3d.com is Eclipse Studios, and they have models and motion capture files.

I doubt very much that they are ripping anyone off. I think it's vice versa where their products are being illegally distributed.

You should edit those freebie links out of your post because it's promoting copyright violation and pirating.

EDIT: I sent Eclipse Studios an email. I'm sure they will look into it and sort whatever the problem is out..

Sorry and no offence Acadia - but you are incorrect here. 

The 1st of those models was made by another (and well respected) lightwave artist and given away freely at Scfi-3d. Which is a very respectable site. The stolen version is being brokered at es3d.  The 2nd has been avaliable for free for a while via the lwg. 

I'd never support priracy or copyright violation. If you bought something at a poser store and discovered it was stolen, would you take the refund and keep quiet ? Or would you speak out to avoid anyone else being ripped off ? 

Acadia, Those freebie alien models were created by the lightwave modelers in the freebie links, the Alien Space jockey's modeling was shown from satrt to finish in posts at Lw3d by Sean Kennedy. Like wise the narcissus, these guys are pros, why would they rip off some poor amateur, when they can model it better themselves? These models that are being brokered on es3d.com are the rip offs. Really nasty as the originals are free. Ron

So, can replicas from movies be sold?  I know Renderosity has a policy against it but it seems strange ES would sell them.   Unless of course they're sufficiently changed but in their description they make it clear that these are exact replicas.

Cross-posted with mrsparky and RonGC before it was clear these are indeed ripoffs.

With you there Ron.

Kalypso - The issue here isn't about if things from movies can be sold, thats been debated 100's of times here and at other forums.  This is another case of stealing another artists work and selling it.  

Freebie creators spend many hours of their time working on stuff. It's simply plain wrong that someone should try to make a profit from their efforts. 

It's the same for artists as well, how many times a month are there threads here showing a site with stolen artwork.  

What does all this theft show to any artists outside the poser community ? It's hard enough to get publishers and artists to get over the 'poser is pervs' debate without being seen as crooked as well. Actions like this don't do anyone any favours.

Ok, sorry. I wasn't aware of that.  Thanks for clearing it up. I thought Eclipse Studios were on the up and up. 

I do see on the site that they deal in "brokered items", so it's possible that they were not aware that it was modelled by someone as a freebie? 

Yes, I know mrsparky.  I didn't make my point clear I'm afraid :)    Since it's a replica from a movie a company that knows what it's doing would probably not sell it in the first place, and that in itself should arouse suspicions as to the credibility of this site.  

It is unfortunate that these modelers' generosity is being rewarded in such a way.  I wouldn't be surprised if fewer and fewer continue to share their work :(

Acadia - Yep it's possible they wheren't aware of the item. But why is still on sale today ? 

Kalypso - your point was cool. 'cuse me rant :) 

Don't worry stuff like this won't put anyone off making any freestuff. I've been skanked as both producer and a customer before and I don't stop making stuff :)   

It doesn't look to me like they do much checking into who actually created or has the rights to any particular model.  They just broker the sales.

So, whoever sent the pilfered models in to them is primarily at fault (and is getting most of the ill gotten gains from the sale).

However, if ES is going to put itself in the position of brokering sales, they should, at a minimum, get proof that the seller has good title to what they are selling ... or they are going to get burned.

There is way to much of this type of thing going on these days. If a person were to actually contact the original model makers you might possibly be able to work out a profit sharing deal with them on poserising models then selling the product. But no, these people think that by slapping a different texture on a pilfered model no one will notice. I guess low class equals stupid. Sorry but it just frosts me that they think i'm that naive and that they can get away with both shafting me and the models originator, all for a couple of bucks. SCUM! Ron

Hello everyone.  Thank you for chiming in on this heated topic.  

I am one of the CG artists who created the "Stolen" meshes.  My name is Sean Kennedy and I'm a regular of this site and the Lightwave Group.  The meshes in question are posted by artists who create these models for public use.  Eclipse Studios has taken the meshes, converted them to a Poser format, and are selling them with no credit to the original artist and putting themselves and the artist at risk for copyright infringement.  

1)  An artist can create a 3D representation of copyrighted concept, as long as they do not make a profit. (That's why we post them for free use)

1. To convert a 3D model from one fromat to another does not change the fact that the original artist created the mesh.  It's inconsiderate (not to mention fraudulent) to sell artwork created by another individual, especially if said concept is owned by another corporation (such as 20th Century Fox).

To resolve this issue I have:

1) Asked Eclipse Studios to remove the product from sale.  If they do not, they will be hearing from my attorney. 

1. They may post the mesh only if it is for free download. And if they wish to give the mesh away for free, then I expect them to post a notification stating that the original mesh was created by me.
2. I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

Thanks for all your support on this.

Yikes.

You know, I could understand it if Eclipse didn't realize that one of their brokered artists was a thief.  But they have to know that selling meshes based on blockbuster movies is a no-no. 

I had been considering buying some of their mocap packs, but this kind of thing really makes you think twice.

Well, I bought about $60 worth of mo-cap from ES3D, and then found the site where some of the original mo-cap files were available for free. Nice.

Toe-curling!! 

I guess just putting the word "Studios" on the end of your business name doesn't make you any more artistic than if you'd used the word "Hut"...

Beautiful work by the original modellers - The Giger and Cobb designs are not for the faint hearted!

Cheers

Well they did finally respond....Not exactly what I expected, but at least they are pulling the mesh.

Quote -
Sir,We were made aware of the situation a couple of days ago from
a customer who purchased the item. That is a brokered item, and was submitted
by a visitor to our site.
 
That was the only sale that item made since it was submitted.
We will remove the item as soon as we are back in the office, which will be Thursday night
US pacific time. We are on the road on business and will not be able to
remove the item till then.

Regarding " I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting your actions."
We aslo have an attorney. A good one. If you engage in any activity or actions which damage our reputation or our ability to sell our products, you will be held financially responsible and liablefor said damages.

"If you do not I will be force to report this to your ISP, your web host and Paypal" Once again, I reiterate, any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving , and you will be sued for lible and damages. We make every reasonable attempt tp ensure that items submitted to us are original items  of the person submitting.

As stated, we will remove your mesh tomorrow night, as we are on the road on business. We dont want it, ot need it. We made no money on it.
We will send you the email address and contact information for the person who submitted it. You can threaten that person. Dont threaten us.
If we see so much as a single word in any venue, liabiling us or our website and we we sue you personally for damages.

As was pointed out, they got the mesh from a third party.  Thanks for the support and suggestions

Wow. Nice people.

This was my response.  I treid to be as polite as possible without saying something really rude.

Quote - Sir,

 

Thank you for responding so promptly to my message. 

 

I apologize for sounding so harsh and threatening a lawsuit, but this is not the first time this has happened to me and some people seem to have the attitude the rules don't apply to them.  After a while, having people rip you off gets old.  I appreciate you pulling the mesh from your site. 

 

May I enquire as to how you follow up on submissions? Do you have a written protection policy in place for submissions; one that I can refer to when speaking to the individual who posted my mesh to your site? The sites I originally posted my mesh two have binding legal agreements on the usage of downloaded meshes. With these, and any documents you have for submissions, I should be able to bring legal action against the person who posted it. I also appreciate that you are willing to send the contact information of the person who submitted it.  I would like to talk to him and find out exactly what he thought he was doing.

 

It is good that you made no money on the mesh, as that would have put us both in jeopardy of selling copyrighted material. 

 

Regards,

 

Sean Kennedy

Good to see some resolution coming out of this Sean. Ron

You handled that well - much better than getting into a "my attorney is bigger than your attorney" p*ssing contest when the design copyright holder's attorney is bigger than both anyway.

Hang on to a copy of their product page - the product description at least suggests they weren't keeping as keen an eye on what was going into their store as maybe they should have:

A richly textured and highly detailed prop of
the dead alien pilot scene from the movie Alien.
This prop comes in two parts and is supplied in
Poser prop format. An excellent and unique scene
for your Poser animations.

Hopefully the 3rd Party's downloading of your mesh has been logged somewhere is some form so they can't pull the old "I found it on a college computer" ruse.

Cheers

Gawsh... that letter from es3d is so non-business like. They're doing a disservice to themselves by protesting too much. Looks like some kid pretending to be a business... wow!

Let alone the poor use of English. They may not be Americans. To quote them: "any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving" Sounds to me like you've made em' so nervous they won't be able to perform in bed! :b_tonguewink:

Is that response taken directly from their email ? Threatening the wronged party knowing they have made a mistake just makes them look even worse. If that was not enough, their response is full of spelling mistakes, very professional (not). Agree with Connieket8, their response and attitude will be the most negative effect on their reputation, the fall out of any suggestion of action against a wronged party puts them on the radar of every artist.

Nice to see you got it resolved there Sean. 

Hopefully the free site which is the source for some of the mocaps can also put a stop to this thievery. We shouldn't have to be think 'is this ok' when we buy something. 

We should be able to use Poser for what it's designed for, making great art and above having fun!

So on that note, and with Seans explict permission, a poseried version of his model will be made available for free later this week. So then everyone can enjoy it.   

Cool!

Has anyone ever tackled the Alien from the original film? I don't think I've ever seen him anywhere.

Cheers

This is a damn shame.  I've dealt with these guys and I was looking forward to buying a load of their mocaps.  Now, I'm just confused.  The unprofessional reponse in their letter is what really gets me.  It's one thing to have a bad item for sale froma  thrid party, but it is an entirely different matter to treat people so poorly.

What happened to ethics and good will in business? 

Don't they know word spreads really fast ont he net?

I'm absolutely disgusted.

Yes the alien has been poserized they have the Alien Drone for FREE (click on the alien motion link)  at the above mention site there is another place that have the Alien Queen and a mech alien but I don't remember the site i will look it up unless someone find it first

Anyone know who Miles Jackson is? His is the name under the prop as being teh brokered artist.

**Thanks again for all your support.

To answer questions:  Yes this was taken directly from their e-mail response.
This was their second response to my inquiry about their follow-up and protection policy.  Again taken from their e-mail.** 

[QUOTE] This has happend to us before, and I am sure it will happen again.Other than asking someone to tell the truth when they ,

theres not much more we can do.We dont have the time to

research products that are submitted to the site.

I will send you the info friday morning..[/QUOTE]

I don't know if they are intentionally being unprofessional or they just dont care.  If they did sell any copies of the mesh, it would make both them and me liable for copyright infringement.  I don't know about them, but a $100,000 fine scares the crap out of me.
Hopefully they will give me the contact info on the person who submitted it.  I don't actually want to sue them, but they need to understand how serious this is.  I work for Sony and we deal with copyright issues all the time.  If you're in the wrong it can cost you big. (up to $100,000 for each incident - plus any rulings in favor of the plaintiff if they decide to sue)

I'm coming in late on this, but I note that the other model mentioned by mrsparky (the narcissus) is marked as an exclusive item, not as a brokered one. Oh, and the text which accompanies it says  "This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." which is clearly no longer the case, given that one is available at the LW site for free.

BTW, on their website, Eclipse Studios cliam the shuttle craft is: "Created from drawings and photos of the original prop from the movie Alien, this highly detailed and fully textured 3D Model is an exact replica of the Narcissus escape shuttle from the first movie in the Alien quardology. This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." This one is also NOT a broker item, but an original model from them. The Alien pilot is the brokered item. If this kind of incident (where the "brokered artist" have misrepresented their wares) have happened to them before, and this is (let's assume) their second time, one would think they would take a stronger stance against such things and to make every attempt to prevent this kind of thing from happening again after the first incident. i.e. legal contracts, a Google search, and/or compare the meshes. If one spends all that time starting up a business, "we don't have time" is kind of a strange response. I hate to tell you this, but it's likely you'll get a free email address that'll lead to a dead end. Strictly my opinion, of course. Listed at the end of the post is their domain registration information. I will leave it up to the reader to draw their conclusions. Here's a summary of the information that we have about ES: - accepts Paypal as only payment method - hosted by Yahoo - emails come directly from what appears to be a residential broadband account - "no time" to properly verify product origins - less than stellar communication skills - domain registration info seems to be phony (I can't find the address in Chino, CA) Domain Name.......... es3d.com Creation Date........ 2004-12-20 Registration Date.... 2004-12-20 Expiry Date.......... 2007-12-20 Organisation Name.... john smith Organisation Address. 1234 smith drive Organisation Address. Organisation Address. chino Organisation Address. 92880 Organisation Address. CA Organisation Address. UNITED STATES Admin Name........... john smith Admin Address........ 1234 smith drive Admin Address........ Admin Address........ chino Admin Address........ 92880 Admin Address........ CA Admin Address........ UNITED STATES Admin Email.......... deliveryservices@hotmail.com Admin Phone.......... +1.9515729881 Admin Fax............ Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact Tech Address......... 701 First Ave. Tech Address......... Tech Address......... Sunnyvale Tech Address......... 94089 Tech Address......... CA Tech Address......... UNITED STATES Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096 Tech Fax............. Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com

Quote - I'm coming in late on this, but I note that the other model mentioned by mrsparky (the narcissus) is marked as an exclusive item, not as a brokered one. Oh, and the text which accompanies it says  "This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." which is clearly no longer the case, given that one is available at the LW site for free.

You beat me to the punch! ;)

I'm late on this bandwagon too lol!  Just reading this string today after a break for the holidays.  I find this whole thing utterly ........... irritating to say the least.  The response to you was abysmal.

What I have the hardest time with is their immediate threat to sue for libel against them or whathaveyou if  you say anything bad about their site.  Thats proposterous!   I'm supposing they don't realize this is the united states, and one can (and should) voice an opinion.  You can and have every right to write a review on whatever you see fit.

Especially, considering the information is true!!

Its pretty pathetic if they host the site and maintain it, and its their rep on the line, they dont check out whats there to sell to protect their own interests!

Sean,

That first letter from es3d really sounds like from a rude punk kid,
but he did get nervous by your notice, so nervous as to write:

"any attempt to liable our us (ass?) or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving"

He doesn't know the word liable isn't a verb, either -- 
makes me think maybe it's his lack of English proficiency that hampers his efficiency in checking the products submitted to their site.

( I don't mean to imply that he is a foreigner, btw; I suspect he's just a rude punk kid.)

Well, at least now we know for sure what attitude the es3d guy has, and I will avoid buying anything from their site for sure.

.

Has anyone posted anything about this in the Daz forums?  I ask because I swear it is through Daz that I first found es3d and I remember seeing him post in the forums over there on rare occasion.

I just think the word should get around.

Quote - BTW, on their website, Eclipse Studios cliam the shuttle craft is: "Created from drawings and photos of the original prop from the movie Alien, this highly detailed and fully textured 3D Model is an exact replica of the Narcissus escape shuttle from the first movie in the Alien quardology. This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." This one is also NOT a broker item, but an original model from them. The Alien pilot is the brokered item.

You wonder what checks they make on anything. If you look at this box artwork for a Japanese model kit of the Narcissus, you'll see the prominent 20th Century Fox notice at the bottom. We can safely assume that this notice didn't get there without making time to do some "checking". http://www.fantamodellismo.altervista.org/alien/foto_spiegazioni_narcissus/narcissus_01grande.jpg If these guys are playing fast and loose with their "own" products, is it any wonder this kind of thing happens.

Hi
I have just seen this thread and I too am shocked at their response. As stated by others here it really does seem like some punk kid has written it. I for one will not be buying anything from ES3D. If that's the reponse they give when they are clearly in the wrong, I dread to think what their customer support would be like if someone was looking a refund for any of their goods that were not up to par.
I for one feel like writing to them and stating that on the strength of how they treated Eromanric, I will be boycotting their site -  maybe if enough of us did that it would make them re-think their customer service a bit. Maybe its time large companies (if that's what it is rather than some kid operating out of their bedroom!) felt the power of forums.
Would that be OK Eromanric? (dont want to get you into trouble though!)

Sean, even though I agree with all the remarks made by people here concerning copyrighted material and it's illegal use, I have to say I'm slightly surprised and disappointed in your posts here. Telling us the models are being brokered illegally from  Eclipse Studios is fair and justified and as potential consumers it is justified to warn us, but pasting the contents of the emails for the public to see, I find is bad manners. Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

I can understand your frustration and anger, but that is no reason for a lapse in good manners.

Cheers

ThrommArcadia : the TOS at Daz doesn't allow you to post issues like this there.

I actually thought about this for a day or 2 before posting here. Normally if I get burned I think, nuts and other expleteives and never buy from that person again. But I I'd replied to a couple of folks who'd seen an image I'd created asking where to get it. Didn't want them to get burned so I posted.   

Cheers - no offence but I think Sean did the right thing. He was the victim here and that mail only confirms the kinda attuide that some folks give when they get caught out. 

Quote - Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

There's no such thing as a confidential email in this context. If person A sends an email to person B, A has to accept that the email might be made public by B - as a letter might be. An email or letter would only be regarded as confidential if the disclosure of its contents would be illegal (e.g. a matter of national security or a criminal investigation) or contained information which one or both parties were under a professional obligation to keep secret (e.g. medical or legal information).

It might be bad manners under some circumstances to disclose a personal email (not here incidentally - I think it was quite right to publish) but there is no other obligation not to disclose. Indeed, disclosure or the possibility of it may be essential in some cases to put pressure on someone behaving badly. Basically, apart from exceptions such as the above, if you put something in writing, you'd better accept it might be in the public domain the next day.

You might be interested to know the model has NOT been removed -- I just clicked the "Add To Cart" button on their page and in it went no problem. Direct PayPal link, too. Of course I am not going to buy this item, what these people have done is blatant misappropriation of somebody else's work. Shame on them for ripping Sean and their customers off that way.

Quote - Telling us the models are being brokered illegally from  Eclipse Studios is fair and justified and as potential consumers it is justified to warn us, but pasting the contents of the emails for the public to see, I find is bad manners. Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

I don's see all email 'equal'
Posting emails sent in confidence by a friend, or someone we pretended to be friendly with, in order to ridicule or hurt them, would be bad manners and betraying a friend's confidence.

Posting copies of business correspondence in order to share with friends or participating community of some company's shady or unethical business practices is a whole different type of email. I'm not aware of any kind of inherent expectation of confidentiality in business correspondence. Being a small business owner myself, since early 1990's, I'm painfully aware that any business correspondence I make in the name of business is public knowledge and record, unless I specify in writing that it is confidential communication. Even then, it's confidentiality is limited. Moreover, when a person is a sole proprietor, much of personal communication can come under scrutiny and reflect on the business.

Speaking of public record, I wonder if the guy has a business license... If it's a real business, then all this info should be public record, filed with the county of (Chino I believe is Riverside County... about 5 miles from where my office is), and a business license issued in the city of Chino.

Much like anyone in the world can find my business name, ownership info, business license etc, which is how it is when it's a legitimate business.

For example, if I received such complaint, I would be apologizing profusely for the oversight, because I know that the responsibility of what my business does lays on me, and hoping that the artist whom was infringed upon is appeased enough and sees it as an honest mistake or an oversight, and is forgiving enough to not seek damages (including punitive).

As a business (owner) I have to watch very closely the legalities and appropriateness and copyright and intellectual property laws and contract laws of everything that runs through my business.  As a business, I have an obligation to do that. Saying I have no time... I'd open myself to damages arising from negligent business practices, for one.

Courts usually don't have a lot of patience or sympathy or lenience for ignorant business practices. They tend to hold business and their owners to a higher degree of responsibility then consumers or lay persons.

Anyway... just my 2c worth of soapbox  tirade on business practices...

Hmm.. Interesting. In the bad way.

I've bought quite a few of their mocaps. I'm surely not going to deal with them anymore. It just doesn't seem like they're really legit. nd it does make me wonder where they've got the mocaps. I've until now assumed that they WERE a "studio" and made them, now I'm not so sure. Especially not since Helgard mentioned finding some of the mocaps for free...

Bvhfiles.com is the best place for free mocaps. One of the very few places as well.

re the 'email is private' debate -  I was once told by a network admin always assume email is as secure as a postcard. Particulary if you mail from work as email can be read by techies or your boss. 

I've read stories how people have been sacked because of the content of their mails. Usually because they've described in lurid detail how theye 'enjoyed the company'  of a colleague :) 

I was going to buy those Spellcaster ones when I first saw them mentioned in the Daz forums. But the price was more than my poor abused wallet could handle so I put it on my "wait" list. But after seeing this, I'm glad I was broke at the time.  TG, my sympathies, that just sucks. Too late I daresay to even ask for a refund?

this is really a shame.
the internet can be sooo good and sooo bad at the same time...a damn shame.

i'm glad that you have resolution, but i fear there is more in store.

At this point I want them to provide me two things:

1. remove the mesh from their site
2. give me the contact information of the submitter so I can have an offline discussion with him.

They have promised to do both by Friday.... we'll see if it actually happens.

Cheers,

I agree that it could be bad manners to post their responses.    I'm not trying to be petty, but I do want them to take a more serious look at their business practices. I also want to warn people that this type of thing is occuring.  

Last year I had to do the same thing with a  completely different site.  They were very apologetic and took the mesh down immediately.  As it turns out the submitter was a 14-year old kid who didn't know any better.  After a discussion with him about copyrights and mesh distribution, he agreed not to do it again.  With adults it's a bit more difficult.  Adults don't like to admit they're in the wrong (myself included).   Most adults will admit their mistake and move on.  

Am I wrong to want things to change?  Am I going about it in the wrong way?  If so, please tell me and next time I'll handle it differently.