With the collaboration of CL and E-on Software I guess alot of us if you aren't already, at least considering using Vue d'Esprit. Its a great program but you need to be aware of something about the company. Check out the thread in the Copyright and Ethics forum about Vue d'Esprit Imagine Submission Agreement. If you think you might submit an image to them you got to know that they reserve the right to ask for the scene files. Seems innocent enough right? Well take the time to checkout the thread first. Oh and from what I know they have asked for the scene files in some cases. This all came up because I bought some models of Lynes Creations (shes got some great stuff) at vistaintenetproducts and was going to try to start using them in Vue. Then I read her use agreement about this and went to see for myself. I can see why she has it in her use agreement now. What they are doing isn't right and we as modelers and customers need to know this stuff.

I got fed up with them because I bought 3d world magazine for the free Vue CD....Could not install without going to their site, first...Went there...said that the file was to big or something to open in Compuserve. I felt like I threw away 14 dollars. I certainly will check out the thread.

I think they will be asking for them out of interest but for whatever reason they ask you just have to say you can't as its illegal, they can't argue with that.........Steve

Zstrike, Who the hell are you anyway? And why can't you get it into your head that this would be best taken up with E-on Software? And you say "be aware about something about the company.." as if it were something dark and evil. You have posted little more than generalities. Post some specifics already, and I don't mean toss around agreement clauses. Let's hear your freakin' story before you begin your slander campaign!

I believe their intention is to determine, when necessary, that a VUE scene was actually done in VUE without post-production, before they make it an offical "Picture of the Day". Otherwise, someone else will come along whinning that it was done in MAX, Lightwave or other Photoshop effects. Asking for the scene files, IF DEEMED NECESSARY AS PROOF, just makes sure they are displaying "pure Vue" renders... MANY people still cannot accept that VUE is as GREAT as it is and are looking for ways to attack the company, especially now that VUE 4 is coming out with more great new features that will make more expensive software look like a rip-off... Vue d'Esprit is a very small company, but they produce an unbelieveably excellent program for the price you pay, and VUE artwork regularly wins top awards in contests- coming from a fairly small VUE user base. The constant problem is non-VUE users "can't believe" its REALLY VUE...

Yes. E-on Soiftware has no intention of trying to steal anyone's copyrighted material. Besides, Vue in and of itself is good enough where it doesn't even NEED to have external models imported to make great pictures. And if your scene depends SO much on imported models, well then you're simply SOL if they say that you need submit the scene file. You are simply WRONG, Zstrike.

Hey Mike, take a chill pill. Relax. Zstrike is apparently just uninformed. Fox did a very good job of explaining why E-On requests scene files when necessary. "Who the hell are you?" and "Let's hear your freakin' story..." aren't really necessary. Zstrike took the info he received one way and hopefully now he is better informed and realizes why E-On has this policy. We know you're the Vue forum moderator so you don't have to try and pound the other guy down to prove Vue is great. We know it is. I was actually "shocked" at your response because you have always appeared VERY level-headed and fair. Take a look at Fox's reponse and learn how to reply in a more civilized manner - he did a great job without attacking! I will just chalk it up to you having a really bad day.

Thanks megalodon, and you are right. Sorry to say though, this is not an isolated incident. But, you recommended a "chill pill". Great advice--- I need that because I do tend to take things personally when they mean so much to me. So, thanks for the advice, and call me "Chilly"! :)

I see an apology from Mike, maybe one from zstrike wouldn't go amiss :) Poppi; Maybe you should blame Compuserve instead of e-on for the fact you don't have total freedom to download what you want from the internet. As for chucking away 14 dollars, well I always bought magazines for a good read...you could always spend $99 on the boxed version and have it delivered to your door! Cheers

I think Fox said it all. I just bought the 3D World Mag also. I had no problems installing it whatsoever. I don't understand what you mean about the file being to "big" Poppi. All I did was install it and then go to the site address the provided to register it. I then received an email with my registration number to activate the program :o. I have to say, I have had it for 3 days now, and I absolutely love it. This program is wonderful. The render engine ROCKS! My renders in Bryce took up to an hour for a simple scene, Vue does it in 5 minutes (if that long) and I am on a computer that is fast running out of memory. As far as them wanting the scene files, the explanation makes perfect sense. Sheesh...are people suddenly getting too paranoid lately or what?

The "original" version of this has been moved to C&D, for anyone interested. Mike

Okay, I've read both threads and: 1) There is nothing necessarily nefarious In Eon's use of the term data. Technically speaking, when you submit an image you are not sending an image- you are sending image data. Eon is merely being precise. 2) I was unable to find anything in the submission agreement or their site that stipulated you must sent a scene file or even that they will ask for one. But if they do request one there is nothing to prevent your refusal. In any case, this agreement quite clearly applies only to the original image data submission. Although obviously related, scene data and image data are substantially different things- a bitmap file is not a scene file. As no agreements apply to the scene file any concerns about the models, etc they may incorporate are irrelevant. 3) The other thread states "E-on Software claims this transfer of creator rights for FOREVER!!! It is theirs PERMANENTLY. They can even block the creator from ever using or reselling their own model for forever!!" There is nothing in the agreement that grants Eon exclusive rights so they cannot block the creator from continuing to use the image as s/he sees fit or granting future limited rights to others. Granting rights to another party is not the same things as transferring these rights. 4) Contrary to other opinions I think it is quite appropriate for Zstrike to raise this issue here. Not everyone reads agreements even though they should so this serves as a warning for those who may be concerned about such things. It is akin to warning a young child to pay attention to traffic lights when crossing a traffic intersection. Doing so does not disparage the manufacturers of such lights. 5) Vue's quality or lack of quality as a program has nothing to do with this issue. While some people may indeed feel that Vue is not that great it requires an incredible leap of logic to conclude that they also feel a need to attack the product or its company. In fact, Zstrike began his post by calling Vue a "great program". Introducing such idle conjecture does little to clarify the subject at hand. As it happens, I prefer Bryce to Vue. I think in some ways Vue offers superior rendering for certain types of imagery, primarily naturalistic scenery. But for my work I prefer the edgier look of Bryce renders. People often ask my opinion of various programs and their suitability. Even though I use Bryce, I have recommended Vue when it seemed more appropriate to their style. Bryce and Vue are tools and nothing else. We already have more than enough religions. 6) Basically, this agreement only achieves two things. Firstly, it provides Eon with some small degree of legal protection necessary if they are to publicly display imagery they have not created themselves. I doubt that anyone would find fault with that. Secondly, it allows Eon to use submitted imagery (and imagery only) in any way they wish without further required permissions or payments. If you later decide you hate your image and want it to disappear from the face of the earth, too bad. Eon may continue to use it. For advertising purposes they could create a collage of submitted images. They could use your image on their product packaging or in their manuals without paying you. They could decide to sell an image compilation via cd or book without paying you and you could do little about it. Personally, I think this is a little bit cheesy. But understand that just because Eon has the right to use your image without further compensation it does not mean that they will. Unless you are an Eon employee responsible for such matters it is absurd to say what Eon will or will not do, what they will or will not think. 7) So what does this mean to me? I am not being coerced to submit an image so there is no cause for personal concern. Having read recent announcements I am very interested in a closer look at Vue 4 when it is released. However, based upon this thread I will want a thorough reading of its license agreement first. ps I am not a lawyer either. But I spent quite a few years as a commercial property insurance underwriter. Insurance policies tend to be huge, convoluted legal contracts so I became quite familiar with legalese and the ramifications of agreements. Of course, that does not make me right .

Thank you, "jval" for your wisdom within your input. It is very easy to be soooo close to something that the line betwen a potential problem and an all-out attack can become blurred, if you know what I mean, and I imagine you do. In short, E-on wants to be able to verify the claims of the submitter, and the only way to do that is with the .VUE file, which is the Vue scene file format. I have lost my temper, and at the same time, I have lost my ability to rationalize and judge. I am ashamed for allowing personal feelings to overcome my (ever so tediously-balanced) rationality.

JVAL- Nice logical approach and really good research. I know Mike is getting a little defensive because there has been, and likely will be, when Bryce 5 comes out, a certain amount of "I'm BETTER than YOU ARE!" So- we need some of the old Rodney King "Can't we all just get along" stuff... Actually I use Bryce too and may upgrade to Bryce 5, depending upon what it really brings that is worth upgrading for. But I am anxious to get my new VUE 4 as I really love the program. Bryce's "hard edge" look is good for architecture and mechanical type scenes, I think, while Vue's warmer, softer tones and plants are good for more poetic render styles. I think that's why VUE especially attracts people with fine art talents...

Hi again Mike. Ah... I wouldn't sweat it. But passion has led some artists to go so far as cutting off their ear so don't get too carried away with it .

Hi Fox-Mulder. I've used Vue also and think it quite good. But at this point it doesn't do anything that I want to do that I can't already do with Bryce so there is little incentive to change. If Vue 4 does indeed bring new features I want I wouldn't hesitate to move to it. I am loyal to my personal needs, not a mere piece of software. I did find your comment that Vue may especially appeal to those with fine art talents ironic. I say this because I prefer Bryce and lately have been selling work in precisely those "fine art" circles. In truth I am not selling a lot yet but it is increasing and I'm gaining a small local reputation. Fine art is a diversified thing. In my imagination I can see artists like James Tissot or Jacob van Ruisdael choosing to use Vue if they lived today. But others such as Dali or Warhol or Chirico seem to be Bryce candidates to me. Artists like Edward Hopper or Pail Delvaux could go either way. But there is no reason that we must choose one or the other. I am lazy so always prefer the tool that gets the job done in the most expedient and easiest manner possible. My preference for surreal and abstract work leads me to Bryce as the more suitable tool. I can do the former with Vue but have difficulty with pure abstracts. On the other hand, I've done a few scenic and animal nature images and thought they would have been much easier to achieve in Vue. I've been able to find very few, if any, surreal or abstract Vue works on the web. If anyone knows of any I would appreciate a url.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=281812

Hi JVAL- You might want to check this Vue thread. Everyone has their own idea of what "art" is. I originally made a lot of surreal stuff in Bryce as it seemed to be ideal for that sort of thing. But I prefer the look of VUE mostly because it does a better job with Poser people and creatures, plus its nice looking plants. It takes real work to keep a Bryce scene from looking "cold" in my opinion, plants generally look dead, while Vue naturally has a soft, warm "alive" look... I am still using Bryce mainly because I had created so many water and ocean scenes with it. I do a lot of post work in Photoshop so I can tweak things to what I want. I'm also a big Terragen user, mainly because of the beautiful 3D clouds, and I often post-in the Terragen clouds into the lifeless Bryce type skies. Vue 4 promises to have 3D Terragen type clouds and volumetric atmospheres (which take God-Aweful FOREVER to render in Bryce) so if Vue 4 runs 40% faster as promised, it would make Vue my all-around favorite 3D renderer...

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=47632

*I've been able to find very few, if any, surreal or abstract Vue works on the web. If anyone knows of any I would appreciate a url.* -- I have one in the Vue gallery here (link above). More on my website. :)

Now don't you just love forums? Look how much more informed we are. I've just gotta say that it really looks like we're civilized! Hopefully both Vue and Bryce will continue to improve - this will spur continued creativity between both companies and will ultimately give us a significantly better product. I have to admit that I (personally) am not that concerned with E-On's policy but I am glad I was made aware of it. I am anxiously looking forward to Vue 4. And Mike, err, "Chilly" - we all have bad days, even me! :) (Though I have been told that recently I've had more bad days than good. Gotta work on that...)

heyas; i read through the eon image of the day submission info and stuff and details and fine print. this is why i don't submit images for iotd. if e-on likes your image very much, they will want to use it to promote their software -- obviously! iotd is only one way they promote vue. another way is box art. the third way, which i believe is causing the confusion here; is that e-on would like to include sample vue scenes in the package. vue 3 (dont know about 2) has several sample images: that interior waiting room thing, the big orange clouds and shadows, the creek with the log in it, the african sunset, a space scene, etc etc etc. these were made by vue artists (not necessarily working for e-on) and included in the vue distribution. now as i understand it, e-on MAY ask you, as an iotd participant, for your scene file to distribute as part of vue. if you used poser or other copyrighted figures in your scene, you have to tell them no. i DO believe it is optional if you allow your scene to be distributed thus; but as i say, i don't participate in iotd, so they never asked me for a file. you can ask laurie, i believe they approached her about it.

oh; anyway, the bottom line is, if you don't like the iotd submission requirements.... then don't submit your images. :)

hey bloodsong, good answer-- I had no idea about Laurie.

I've submitted a bunch of images to e-on's Picture of the Day, and I've had several selected for the day's display, which is cool. Folks want to see what can be done using Vue d'Esprit, they can browse the PotD archives at e-on's website. One of the requirements is that submissions to PotD be made with Vue alone, no additional work after the rendering, aside from a signature if desired. If they like the image but don't believe it was made only using Vue, then is when they would ask for the scene file, only to verify it really renders that way. I've never had them ask me for one, and frankly, I would be very surprised to be asked. Now, as Bloodsong said, there is an option not to particpate. No one twists my arm to submit images to PotD. No one has ever requested a scene file from me, either. If I was asked, and if the scene contained models I don't have the right to redistribute, I'd have to refuse, it's that simple. That would mean my questionable image would probably be excluded from PotD, but that wouldn't be the end of the world or anything. I can make make new images and try again, right? Plus I can always display any of my images in my own gallery. :)

Varian and Fox-Mulder: Thanks for the abstract links. Will check them out. - Jack Valero

That is why you won't see any of my scene files on the cd :(, much as I'd be honored to have them there. I am just not a good enought modeler to make all the objects that I use in a scene. Period. Laurie