Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=53930&Start=25&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

(please see provided link) it seems as though senjin feels that a great wrong has been done......what i'd like to know from you, the partners in the project, the viewers of the galleries, and the community as a whole, is whether or not senjin's claim validates pulling the plug......i'd like to restate that i've never seen senjin's store items, for reasons you'll read when you check the link.......therefore i genuinely don't feel as though i've stood on her shoulders........however, at the risk of offending someone and having the situation possibly mushroom into a flame war or worse, i leave it up to all of the aforementioned people here at R'osity to assist in decided the best course of action......with that said, i'd like to go into the Playing Cards Project's origin for a moment.....i was working with Plazio's Latexa V2, when for no apparent reason, i remembered a deck of nekkid cards that my dad used to have (hehe....the one that he didn't know that i knew about)....i closed Poser, opened up PSP, made the 10 of Spades background, and proceeded to make the first card....i came to the galleries, and looked at all the new stuff, as is my custom, before posting my image.......seeing the work of other artists can be inspiring, and thus was the case this time.......i began to envision how different artists would create the other cards, especially the face cards.....that's why i mentioned making it a community thing.......however, in light of senjin's feelings on the matter, i thought that perhaps the opinions of all involved should be gathered and applied......so i leave you to it.........what say you, R'osity?????

I dont think anyone should pull the plug its up to the artist to do what ever he or she feels the need to do at the time oh yer my dad had them cards as well. If someone has an opinion on a given subject thats fine as we are all entitled to have an opinion. Well thats enough from me

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=53970&Start=1&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

almost forgot.....here's a second one.........

I don't think he really has any claims. I didn't even recognize the items in the store as being cards to be honest. They looked like borders except the 2 that had the A but that doesn't stand for ace or anything. Playing cards have been around for much longer than the internet. I had briefly looked at the store items but never gathered playing cards from them. They are simply a border with rounded corners. Not cards in my view.

I just looked again. The cards in question were green with an A ... No suit .. no clue that they were cards to be honest. I never once gathered that even when I was staring at them for the purpose of finding a card design in there ... It looked like series A or some other coding but not cards.

Peope are bound to have similar idea. Frankly your card backgrounds are different. I thought the little "A" was his initial or something, just looked like a frame to me.... I don't see how a mass project amongst artists for fun can be perceived as stepping on anyone's toes. Just wish I'd known about it so I could make one too ;-)

I just checked the "other" cards, didn't even recognize them as being cards, as Ghostofmacbeth said above I had to look realy close and with lots of imagination to find any cardthing in it... And yes all over the world different people have simular ideas not even knowing eachother or seeing eachothers work, so I don't think Senjin has a valid point... Just keep enjoying the images S Caro

Our design is totally different than the marketplace items. And, to the best of my knowledge, I could make my own design, in a czrd format...make a whole deck and proceed to sell them from my site, correct? Please don't pull the plug. This has been so much fun. I am working on a second card. I got a whole new respect for pinup art, too.

Even if senjin's cards were recognizable right off as cards, that is, white background, suit in the corner, etc. There still shouldn't be a problem and no need to pull the plug on the project. Senjin...you can't copyright ideas. You can't expect that because you decided to use a card as an idea, that everyone from now on should credit you if they want to do a card. If that is the case, where is your credit to the origional makers of the first cards? Or to everyone else in the past who has used a card as a marketing idea? I say let the playing cards continue. This has been great fun and a wonderful thing for the community here. I don't see any toes being stepped on, and there is definately no copyright violations involved, so lets everyone go back to having fun. And senjin? Why don't you join in? If your thing is cards, this community project should be right up your alley. Ang

Very nicely said ;)

I agree with RealitysPoison! I have checked out senjins gallery and store and nothing to indicate a deck of cards for one and two you can't copyright ideas! If he or she was using a card with an image on the bottom of their work and someone was doing the same then there is a gripe. Also just to note this senjin has only trolled through my stuff leaving nothing but hey where did you get that...plunk middle of the road rating....middle of the road comment! Nothing to indicate how to better my pics or a praise suggestion. The comment field is for specific reasons not to inflame or leave flames. But senjin feels otherwise. Wolf I would not scrap this idea because senjiin feels the need to troll my stuff and leave non positive comments. I would like to see senjin join us rather than moan I did that first.......!

Ok, enough. i sent you a letter asking you privatly why it seemed to me that I made cards and no one cared. But as I am reading this I see that you failed to tell these fine people that it was just a question, not a thing of saying that I owned the Idea or anything. i could really care less if you make a hole slue of cards, just wanted to know that after all the things I am in and all the stuff I have on this place why only a select few would even take the time to rate a picture or at lease send me a hey bud nice thing. Now, Some of you on this list know that I am always sending a hey, nice job or a the very lease sending a letter asking how you are doing. But as a new friend just told me " Artist should not be rated, it takes away from their art." He is correct. But then he asked me to have a look at the most viewed area, I did and guess what most of the pictures in their have the same handles on who voted them to the top. I even noted that I was on a couple of them. Well bud for the record: Cards come from all around the world, the ones some of you have said have black back grounds like the Ace that i made come from a deck of greek playing cards on my nightstand. So do your thing and I will do mine. But this should not have gone any further then the private letter I sent you. Also Dolly and a few of you know that I am male.

I think this is getting out of hand,instead of all of us arguing the toss over who`s right or wrong we are all intelegent people so we must try to get along with one and other so from here on no more arguing ok. SMILE YOU ARE TALENTED PEOPLE WITH LOADS TO SAY ,SAY IN PICTURES NOT WORDS

I hate to be blunt, but senjin needs a reality check. Just because you have used a format/idea/look/etc in art once doesnt mean that you have a copyright on it. First: his images don't look at all like playing cards nor do they state it in their descriptions... second: artists have used cards as a medium for centuries. Tarot decks, playing cards, collectable cards, card games, comic decks, fantasy decks. Putting a green "A" on the thumbnail of an item that you are selling in the marketplace doesnt give you exclusive rights to using a deck of cards as a medium for art. I've been working on a Tarot deck for the last 6 months, does that mean that from now on noone can ever create a tarot deck again?

Yo, brOken. Can you read?

I agree with wat you are saying but there is no need for all this negative feelings here at renderosity and as artist`s who are among the most reveard people on the planet for we are the ones who can see deep into the human soul

Dolly you are correct: we do look into the soul of ourselves" But we look to other to understand the feelings contained in said art. I have seen all of the works by the people in this group and watched as it has grown. But as I stated before I did not ask this question saying that I owned anything, just asking why no one had noted that I had done the same thing. See if they were to think about it and had took the time to really viem my work then someone in the group would have asked me to join, not to come here and put me on trial. well you all be good and have fun, because I shall.

i neglected to tell these fine people......nothing......i based this thread on your comments in the gallery......i don't have a letter from you at Hotmail, my home e-mail, or in the form of an instant message in one of those little blue boxes.......and, as anyone can ascertain from the manner in which you worded your comments in the gallery, you were insinuating that i'd seen your store items with the card background and decided to take up that theme and run with it.....read it to yourself here, and see if that's how it sounds to you upon second inspection: (copy-paste) 1:I don't mean to be an anus, but I have been using cards not only in my logo,but for my figures in the store. How come you are getting all the credit for making them?? 2:You know something, it is like really funny that I put two figures in the store with card backs two months ago and then all of a sudden someone eles is getting all the credit for doing it. But good job on the figure. #2 is the one that really got my attention.......that statement easily translates into "i think you're ripping off my idea".....i didn't flame you.....and i think i made it perfectly clear in the first post in this thread that i wanted to be fair, and to attempt to vaildate your claim that i'm ripping you off.....i'm not trying to make you look bad or give you a hassle......you made the insinuation that producing images as cards was your idea, and that i was taking the credit for it as my original idea.......hence we have this thread, coming to C&D soon, i'll lay odds........LOL......this thread exists to give you and anyone else participating or just enjoying the results of this project a voice in the matter.....i'm sure someone will step up and defend your side.....that's just how it works.......but, this isn't a hostile attempt to rile or belittle you.....i'd like it better if those who post wouldn't resort to flaming, but who am i to tell people how to post??????? i'm going back to Hotmail to see if this alledged letter has arrived yet......one last thing.......you say that you made cards, and no one cared........that might be because of the nature in which your cards were presented.....as images for your store items and in your logo.....all i did was present an idea with an example and suggest that we share the project as a community........and that's all i have to say about that.........

Just look at all my buildings in the store (not a plug by the way), I make loads of them (coins too), but I never complain when anyone else makes them too.

INTERPERTATION: " Thy words shall be fuddle them and thy meaning shall fall on deft ears" Plato " They can not understand thy words for they can not see their true meaning." Shakespear " My words do not need deeper reading, for I have no reason to lie or fear of thee. " Creations by Paradox " Hey the words are as plain as the nose on your face." Bugsbunny " If I speak to the of gods would thee understand their meaning or would thee cowl in thy inner place and curse my words and their meaning." Sun tzu. Now you have this inner site what do all of these mean?? if you do not know then look at the header.

This is making me very sad. I loved the playing card idea. It was the most positive thing that I have seen to bring the community together since I started coming here, in February. I think it gave alot of us, like myself, a whole new respect for pinup art. Pinup art is soooo much fun, but, it is definitely NOT easy. AND, AND...it brought pinups back to the gallery. :) ;) Why does someone have to flame just about every thread here? Anyone with the sense of a chicken must know that no one "owns" the playing card concept. This should not even have been an issue. As for being "asked" to join this card effort....I was not asked to join. Rather, I followed the instructions on the original message, and picked a card (s) that I would be happy to do. I think most of us did that. Well, Senjin, people have said..."Come on...join us in this fun!" I don't understand where there is a problem. I, for one, have not seen your store items, until today, as I make my own characters, most of the time and so, do not shop for characters...Giggle...now, if you were selling HAIR that'd be another thing. Sorry you got your feelings hurt, but, let's keep this project positive!!! Pop...pop...pop

It appears the issue is solved. The partnership wants to create cards, it now appears that no one is asking why he or she isn't getting credit for the idea, there is no more argument and the cards may go on.

I had my playing card, the Black Joker, completed and was about to post it when I noticed that someone already had created one. I'm more upset about the fact that some people blatantly disregarded cards others had reserved earlier than them and made whatever the hell they wanted to anyways. I took my time creating it because I wanted to create something completely unique and characteristic of my darker style. Thats why I chose the Black Joker. There are plenty of cards that were not done at all, everyone ignored the names on the list and their reserved cards and just made what they wanted to. I know that everyone here has the freedom to do whatever they want and express themselves however they want, but why the hell did we go through signing up for what card we wanted to do if it meant nothing whatsoever? Ah well, fuck it. I'll drop the background and use the render for something else.

Hi Folks! This is a painful thread, but it too shall pass, I hope. Of course we all have a right to be testy about the ownership of our work. I support not only the efforts of Renderosity, DAZ and C.L in that regard, but the efforts of individuals like Anton as well. But the truth is, no one owns the playing card motif. It would be like claiming ownership of the design for the American stop sign. Here's your history lesson for today, folks! Playing cards emerged from the same thousand year-old exercises used to teach military strategy that gave us games like checkers and chess. And those exercises were invented by the same people who invented pasta--the Chinese. Thanx for posting those images, Wolf. Now I know what I want to do with the Jack of Spades. Peter (Dr Zik)

hmmm......this could get entirely out of hand before too long.....my point in this was to see if others thought that i was indeed standing on senjin's shoulders with the idea of images with playing card backgrounds, not necessarily that he laid claim on the design of a laying card, but that the idea of creating an image with Poser that's designed to look like one was originally his......thereby leaving me the rip-off artist (no pun intended)....i think the point has been well made that i had no way of knowing about his logo or store items, therefore i retain the position that i had when this began......i had an idea that i thought was my own, and decided to roll with it......end of story......so perhaps we should let it lay before this thread, like so many similar ones before it, becomes a field day for brutalization of a fellow artist's character......thanks everyone for posting and making your feelings known........ ;)

Keep the cards comming I love what I have seen, this was also something that brought this community together, which is the design of a community there is so much talent here to keep them from coming together would be criminal remember: "You can't please all the people all the time" So that said let's put the grudges behind us and let the cards continue..

If everyone is making some of the same cards (i.e. - suits and A,K,Q,J,10-2) then may I suggest an idea?? (Idea from TheWolfWithin actually) Why don't we create 5 categories, like pin-up, medievil (Wolf's idea), futuristic, space, and maybe character+building or vehicle?? Everyone could submit their work for one or more categories and then all of us could vote on the winning cards for each category. Use the non-voted ones to make a MISC 6th deck? Then those decks could be actually created (by some card making company) and then sold here (maybe $5 deck) to help raise money for this site!!! well, just an idea (stemming from a comment TheWolfWithin made to me in an email about a Medieval Deck of cards) Latah TMG

One last thing to say and then I am done with this thread, for more positive stuff. Senjin...I think you may have misunderstood a little. Nobody "asked" anyone to do these. We volunteered ourselves on that one. If it was on an ask only basis, I doubt that I would have gotten to do any. But I took the opportunity to jump in and join something that looked like fun. As far as not having anyone notice or comment on your work, I can somewhat relate, and somewhat understand. I haven't posted much, I don't get too much time to do just for fun stuff that I can post. But ya, when I posted my two cards I was looking forward to a few comments from at least some of the others on what they thought. My first card elicited nothing. (Thanks to Poppi and Demolition for the comments on the second.) Ya, it kind of stinks when you are hoping for comments on something (as I don't usually do pin-ups or nudes) but you just have to suck it up and move on, and realize that maybe they have a reason. I don't have time to comment on most of the pictures I view. (I have dial-up, so viewing the galleries takes a while.) I browse the thumbs and if I see one that particularly strikes me, I look. Or if I see one that is by a friend I made here, I look and comment. I believe that is what many others do as well. You will notice that the ones that always comment on each others work all the time seem to be friends. If you had only a certain amount of time to view and comment on work, would you honestly seek out a strangers work to comment upon, or a friend who has helped you grow in yours? Now mind, this is just my view of what might be happening, as I see it. Ya, it can be a let down sometimes. But keep on working, make some friends and a support group, join in on positive community things. I am sure you will eventually get there as well. If you really want an opinion on your posts, send me a message when you post and I will view them. demago sends me a message everytime he posts a pic so I don't miss it. I don't think anyone was trying to be negative against you, but your comments you posted in the gallery "seemed" to be against the great project we were all working on. And I don't think TheWolfWithin was trying to start anything as well. His thread was simply letting us decide how we wanted to handle the project. I hope we can all just let this lie and move on to more positive stuff. I was kind of having fun posting, comments or no, when I don't often get a chance. I might have to go play tonight so I can post something else. Take care, senjinn, I hope you have no hurt feelings from this, maybe I interpretted the wrong way. Wouldn't be the first. Now I must go "comment" on someone's work because you made me realize that I have laxed as well. Ang

If everyone is making some of the same cards (i.e. - suits and A,K,Q,J,10-2) then may I suggest an idea?? (Idea from TheWolfWithin actually) Why don't we create 5 categories, like pin-up, medievil (Wolf's idea), futuristic, space, and maybe character+building or vehicle?? Everyone could submit their work for one or more categories and then all of us could vote on the winning cards for each category. Use the non-voted ones to make a MISC 6th deck? Then those decks could be actually created (by some card making company) and then sold here (maybe $5 deck) to help raise money for this site!!! well, just an idea (stemming from a comment TheWolfWithin made to me in an email about a Medieval Deck of cards) Latah TMG

I saw somewhere that someone had customized the solitaire game that comes with windows to use a deck of cards based on SouthPark characters. (Don't remember where - tho.) Does anyone know a way to add decks to the solitaire game? DonnyD

I apologize for all the cards I did not comment on. (That would be the batch from the first day....or the first group.) I went to the Keyes, for a couple weeks, then came back and moved to the beach...so got in on the whole thing a little late. I have still not viewed or read all that I missed in the 3 weeks I was gone. I am game to try some of the new categories..but, would probably suck at futuristic and space. ;)

The idea of nakid lady playing cards has been around for centuries, no one has the right to lay claim to the idea, it's open for anyone to do. senjin you need to lighten up and quit trying to take credit for something you probably saw in a magazine somewhere. Keep up the cards guys, it's a cool thing and with the exception of the little girl with the oversized breasts which looked gross, I think the models are excellent. Marque

Why not name the postings consistently ? One could search for some type of prefix in the gallery and compare all cards ? If all postings started with something like x-cards it would be possible. Just thinking about the best thing ever started here.

ROFLMAO! Someone thinking they own exclusive rights to playing cards. Now THAT'S a good one! HAHAHAHAHA! shrugging and shaking head mutters Some people.

Since TMGraphics brought it to our attention......let's explore the possibilites..... Medieval Sci-Fi Motorcycles/Cars Futuristic Male Pin-Ups Mythical Creatures Female Pin-Ups (right now we have a mixed bag) and here's an idea.....make up four suits..... i.e. Runes Coins Skulls Daggers ...something to that effect...it might be worth consideration ;)

HEY!!!! we could have the Emperor, Emperess and Wizard of each suit instead of the King, Queen and Jack........these, i think, would have to be a bit more standardized to be able to pull it off.....people are familiar enough with regular playing cards to be able to use the ones we've done.......throw them a curve like different suits and courts, and that's another story ;)

i REALLY WISH that i could think of things while i'm still posting.....and i wish that i could refrain from posting my messages until i've given things more thought.....LOLOL.....we could use colors like Black and Purple or Black and Blue so that we don't have to worry about Red being trashed by jpg compression.......k.......i think i'm done now........

I have heard all that you all had to say and believe me I read every last posting before I sat down to right this. To Dolly, RealitysPoison and Poppi, forgive this tread and I hope that you know me better then then the words posted by some of them. Now to you others, you sit and talk about a community, yet all of you vote only for your so called on line friends. Well then this is not a community because you do not help the ones who need it. Oh you put up things but when it comes to contest and stuff you only help your crew not those who need it. Now lets talk about the picture thing. all the most viewed art are from you here, so that would stand to reason that the contest have been won by most of you. Is that a cummunity or just a click of friends taking advantage of those who have the skill to be just as good but are not givin the credit because you don't know them?? Well I go out of my way to talk to every artist that i see with something that catches my eye. most of you who have written to this tread have typed to me at one time or another. You did not know me but as you could tell I greeted you like a fellow artist. So what i am saying is don't think you are the judge and jury of this place because others in this place have noted the same thing. Most of them have spoken with me on this subject. So grow up and be fair for real.

Not a member of any clique here and to be honest I don't talk to anyone here on a regular basis except to help out or whatknot ... Don't even have that much interaction with anyone other than Marque since we both post a lot S And I was simply commenting on the deck design and that I didn't see it as a playing card .. Best of luck S

Unlike Mick Jagger and the Stones.. Time's not on my side... I hit where I can, look at what I can, if something catches my eye.. I'll stop in... if not I don't .. sometimes I'll even hit the ones without thumbs.. I've had the pleasure of a few surprises and a few dissapointments.. but over all.. most interesting. I comment when moved to.. critique if needed.. a lot is based on how new the person is.. how well they've gotten since teh last I saw a render/pic etc.. being more technician than artist .. I tend to view them in the same light as an animation or photograph, looking at lighting, camera angle etc.. sometimes a good word and a pat on the back seem to be needed to encourage them.. sometimes just a good word.. rarely a suggestion.. but always with a good word... if the render offends or is unappreciated or just "don't quite like it".. I just move onto the next.. Quite frankly.. I"m impressed with the art produced here.. reguardless of style, nature, or subject. just remember that art's subjective and not objective.. and it'll sort it self out nicely. Cheers