I thought I'd created some "nice" images with Poser (as we all do), but when I see renders like this (links below), it makes me realise how amaturish all my efforts have been.
Would I be wong to say Poser is for hobbiests and the serous stuff is being done by other people with other software? Albeit people with lots of time and money.

http://www.3dkingdom.org/index.php?module=My%20eGallery&do=showpic&pid=3483&orderby=dateD
http://www.3dkingdom.org/index.php?module=My%20eGallery&do=showpic&pid=3382&orderby=dateD
http://www.3dkingdom.org/index.php?module=My%20eGallery&do=showpic&pid=3375&orderby=dateD
[

](http://www.3dkingdom.org/index.php?module=My%20eGallery&do=showpic&pid=3483&orderby=dateD)

Realise also that Poser is mainly....for pose.So postproduction using painting soft is often necessary.But i think the best post 3d soft for face caracterisation is ZBrush,used for that by many professional
But with Poser or other soft we need to take time to do an good image

Might be better for us to spend more time re-modelling existing models and making our own morphs than just re-posing other people's stuff.
I can't do much in ZBrush but it's easy to make new morphs for any figure.
I suppose it comes down to originality. I can pose V3 infinately, but it's still V3, just lit, rendered and postworked differently.
I guess I'm becoming jaded looking through the galleries.
I'd rather a badly rendered original character, than a beautifully and postworked clone.

Reality check
give me an artest that thinks 
"it makes me realise how amaturish all my efforts have been."
because they will try harder, even if they dont need to(as in this case)
sorry to say this but you are wrong, your work is your own.  from your comments "I'd rather a badly rendered original character, than a beautifully and postworked clone" i feel you are moving up to the next level. and look forward to what comes.

And of course nothing is wrong with using post artwork to touch up your render. To me it doesn't make any difference how the image was acheived, it's the final impact in my opinion.

So if your renders are not as good as you'd like them, there are many things you can do with a 'bad' render using post artwork additions.

Any image that is just a render always looks kinda 'plastic' to me, so i don't just do renders. 

I like to think that rendering a scene is only part of the art......unless you are animating, then it'll take so much longer with additions through post work.  :smile

I trying to learn the poser and put up what I do for better or worse.I have programs like Illustrator and Photoshop but until I learn the poser techniques I will stick to PSp and render what I can. If my wife finfs out I am buyinfg shoes for a poser model its curtains..LOL

Good points.
But I'd get more satisfaction from seeing my own modelled shoe on a table, than my 50th render of Vicki3 in a temple, regardless of how well I rendered it.
Remindes me of a movie I watched last night, **Alfred Hitchcock's Rope.**When Brandon tells Phillip he'll have a hangover if he keeps drinking, and Phillip says, "At least it will be all mine".

Great renders you linked ashley!

Hmm. Now when someone says "Alan Alda" in a thread, we can reply, "No, THAT'S Alan Alda" and link that last render :laugh:

Well personally I don't care that Poser is for hobbyists, because that is exactly what I use it for, a hobby. You can achieve realism with Poser, with some effort & skill. Not saying that my image is fantastic or anything, but I don't think the end result looks anything like V4, & looks fairly realistic, except for the hair - Self Portrait, and there are plenty of people who achieve better realism with Poser than I.

I am a big fan of postwork, I like to use all the tools at my disposal, because that is what they are - tools to achieve a desired result. Who cares what you use to get the image you want, if the end result achieved satisfaction. Poser was originally a starting point for artwork, but has obviously become much more, how you use it is up too you. However, just because someone models something from scratch, then uses it to make art does not necessarily mean they are a better artist than someone who uses Poser models for a base.

Some very talented people who use Poser, & some of my favourites...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=258861 - (nudity) a very good example of what Poser was designed for.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=668162

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1300457

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1230838

*However, just because someone models something from scratch, then uses it to make art does not necessarily mean they are a better artist than someone who uses Poser models for a base.

*Excellent point, and if I might add, Setting up the initial pose says a lot in any given scene, i've seen many failed attempts, but i've also seen many genuine results like the one in the first link.
 
If one takes a long time working from scratch, then setting a realistic pose can also take time. Just one little finger awkwardly placed can be the difference between perfection and "thats just another poser render".

well how do i say this nicely.
Poser IMO was not designed to make the same quality of work (without post work) that aplpicaitons like MAX and Maya are. BUT thats the chouice you make when spending $250.00 vs $3500.00 or $7000.00. But the MAJORITY of us who use Poser are not in an industry that require us to use these other tools. Also consider that once you purchase the main applicaiton , in order to achieve the high end quality you still need to invest another few thousand into the applications plug ins to produce the same outstanding work that others are doing.

On that note, can realiztic renders be achieved in poser? the answer is absolutely YES. But its not something any one who has never touched the applicaiton can sit down and do in 1 hour. I myself have been using Poser since Poser4, and still have many things to master. Just like I ahve been using 3D studio max for about the same length of time and also have 10 times more to master in that applicaiton than I do in Poser.

BUT those that have taken the time, and have put forth the enrgy can produce the same imagery in Poser with soem post work as those that do in other applications. Poser as a tool does an excellant job at all the variety of funtions it does. But you cannot just sit down for an hour or 2 and whip out a stunning master piece. You cannot do this in other applications as well. And for my money I would rather spend the $250 i spent in poser over the $7000 required to own MAYA and have 1000x more things to learn to produce the same image.

ashley,

Maybe it is time for you to become a sculptor/modeler/painter. If you want to stay in Poser for a while, why not work with the Morph Tool Brush   -- it is just that, a tool to "paint" a face's underlying mesh into a new structure, liberating you from the constraints of the dials.

If you like it, you can move up to one of the modeling programs. While, yes, max costs $3500 and Maya $7000, you can get other modelers for a lot less.

There's more to it than warping the mesh, however. There's the 'painting' aspect.

My favorite Poser guy for going deep into character is carodan

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=carodan

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Would I be wong to say Poser is for hobbiests and the serous stuff is being done by other people with other software?

Even though tools can give people small or medium advantages, there's still a lot more that depends on the artist then the tool. 
It's one of those things where the artist+tools in a symbiotic relationship is of a much greater value then just the mere sum of it's parts.

The time to set the tool aside and consider a new one is when it becomes a hiderance in your own expressive proces, when the artist exceeds the tool's capabilities. Where that point lays can be a source of a heated debate :)

Ashley, I don;t say this with any malice but I think you're in the wrong forum. If you really feel as you say in your posts it's time to put Poser away and go play with the "big boys", Lightwave, 3DMax etc. I think you'll be happy with them.

One thing about Poser... It's a generalizing program, models and clothing premade and using a rigging system about a decade old, means it's not really capable of the type of work seen in those renders, altho I know several artist that can come very close to it,and they really should be priased for thier work.

In the case of most of those renders tho, each was made individually, meaning it is in a set pose and sculptured to be EXACTLY what you seen in the picture. Poser uses a group of General use models made to be (pretty much) an average. In addition they must move and conform to an INFINATE number of poses, shapes and sizes. And have I mentioned Poser's rigginf sytem is a DECADE out of date!

Heck, given the handicaps, I personally think anyone that can get a resonable looking render out of poser deserves MORE credit than someone using a $1000+ ablet, to sculpt a blob into a single specific shape in a program running from $20000 to $10000! Of course none of those "ARTISTS" will ever admit that.

mike

Nah. I like Poxer and I don't have the bucks, time or patience to play with the big boys.
I am interested in modelling though, and it would be nice to make an "object" I could call my own.
Even a piece of furniture would do.
(But, of cause, Poser objects aren't real, just in 3D land.)
OK, my next post to the gallery will include an object I've made and textured myself
Don't even know what it will be yet, but it'll be something simple to be sure.
Then I can stand back with my hands on my hips and say, "I made that!, I didn't just render it", (What? that crappy little think in the background?) "Yeh, that crappy little thing is mine, nice eh?"

If you're interested in learning modelling, try Wings3d. It's free. Go to the wings3d forum and click on the forum banner and that will take you to the download site.

Thanks **wheatpenny.**I have ZBrush but it's too hard for me to learm much.
Maybe Wings3d will be at my level. I think I had it once long ago.

ashley9803

http://www.blender.org/ is a very popular free 3d app.

zBrush does not work like the main 3D app's like Blender,Lightwave,C4D etc etc.

Photoshop is a 2D App.

LW,C4D is a 3D App.

zBrush is a hybrid 2D/3D App.

Poser is for Characters,Poser dynamic hair and cloth is not utilized very often.

Vue for landscapes

Each has there own purpose.

Anniebel

quote "just because someone models something from scratch, then uses it to make art does not necessarily mean they are a better artist than someone who uses Poser models for a base."

Humm

Trav

quote "Heck, given the handicaps, I personally think anyone that can get a resonable looking render out of poser deserves MORE credit than someone using a $1000+ ablet, to sculpt a blob into a single specific shape in a program running from $20000 to $10000! Of course none of those "ARTISTS" will ever admit that."

So your saying after they read the 3000 page manuals and spent time learning how to model,map,texture,rig,morph etc etc.

That one should get more credit for posing there characters.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

ashley9803
There are other free modelling apps around too.
Hit the 3d modelling forum. there are links to three or four at the top.
It's a matter of personal taste which one suits you best. I personally feel that being comfortable with an app.'s toolset is more important than it's feature list.
There are all free, so it doesn't cost you anything but some time to check them out.

Quote -
Heck, given the handicaps, I personally think anyone that can get a resonable looking render out of poser deserves MORE credit than someone using a $1000+ ablet, to sculpt a blob into a single specific shape in a program running from $20000 to $10000! Of course none of those "ARTISTS" will ever admit that.

mike

Mike, are you suggesting someone using Poser to render a reasonably good looking image deserves more credit than someone like Bay Raitt, who modeled Gollum's head from a box primative, along with all 800+ facial expression morphs?  He used the modeling software Mirai, which he also helped engineer.  So there's a guy who not only spearheaded the creation of one of the most memorable CG characters in movie history, but he also helped create the tools he used to make that happen.  Now THAT is impressive.

I'm sure you realize that a good portion of the characters you see created in high end apps (with the possible exception of zbrush) are usually done so with the idea of animation in mind.  And although the models may not be created with the notion of morphing them into 100's of other types of characters, many are designed with topology techniques suitable for the creation of possibly 100's of  facial expression morphs to fit that specific character.  It takes a lot of skill to model a convincing character that won't look strangely unlike itself  when you apply a "smile" morph, or give it morphs for various emotions or expressions.

After a while just rendering Vickie's and the same figures over and over and over again can make you bored I know it makes me bored. It never hurts to branchout and make a few obj files, its not really that hard to learn. I  like making small objs, at least I know its mine and I made it.

Quote -

Heck, given the handicaps, I personally think anyone that can get a resonable looking render out of poser deserves MORE credit than someone using a $1000+ ablet, to sculpt a blob into a single specific shape in a program running from $20000 to $10000! Of course none of those "ARTISTS" will ever admit that.

mike

And the flames start..NO what he is saying , IMO, is that if someone can utilize Poser and create a high quality image with the limited tools that this app has to offer , in comparison to the big bucks and high end apps and plug ins that the big boys have to offer. That they should be giveen more credit. Though BOTH are hard to master, mastering poser and getting a HIGH quality image / animation out of it is much more difficult to attain than doing it with say Pixarman.

Additionally you stated another point that the Big Guns have, Propretary plugins and aplications. You have to take into consideration that these guys are also dumping probally millions of dollars worht of time and resources into creating software/plugins to do EXACTLY what they require. they are using tools to do specific things very well, not a generalist tool designed to many things ok. 

In that light if somoene can take the generalist tool and make a High quality image/animation that the only reason you can tell it was done in poser is beacuse you recognize the that that is Vick3, then YES thatr person deserves much more credit for THAT skill than another person.

On the same hane the developer of a MOdel deserves credit for THAT skill as much as the developer of an applicaiton deserves credit for THAT skill

apples and oranges

As like any visual art, CG artwork starts with seeing things. Put these images next to yours and then try to answer the following questions as if you had absolutely no clue about digital art whatsoever: What does this image have that the other doesn't? You will eventually come up with answers like "here's a little highlight on the eye", "there's this backlight that highlights the silhouette", "the glossiness of the facial skin is varying not uniform", "there are tiny wrinkles around his neck". Once you've got this answer, you can turn on your technical mind again: how did those highlights get on that eye? Because some program put them there? No. Because the artist made the program put it there? Yes. Use the same arguments that come up over and over again whenever there's a "is Poser a toy" discussion: programs are just tools. Just like Poser doesn't have the "make art" button, Maya or 3ds max don't have a "make amazing art" button.

I'm really not going to get into a flame war over this since I think that was the intent of this thread but..

What I am saying is that some one that can use a GENERIC low end product like poser, and it's Generic low end content and with postwork create a static render or short animation of their artistic vision that is individually as good as some one using high high end modeller/renderer/postwork to create a static render  or short animation of their artisitc vision, works every bit as hard, or harder and deserve that much create.

Yes there are phenominal artists out there that are so far above they are like unto gods, and they have literally millions of dollars of support, and deserve it. But for a hobbiest to snob poser and it's because it's just " for posing there characters." is redicluous. The effort to create art, wheither the tools are brush and paint, or pixels is fantastic, and noone that engages in it need to be "put down" because of the tools they choose (or are forced) to use. 

An Artist using chalk or charcoal on a sidewalk is still as much of an artist as one using hundreds of dollars of canvas and oil. An artist using Poser and Photoshop is as much an artist as one using a Cray and custom tools. One maybe 33rd circle and the other 1st circle, but both belong to the same club. The price of those tools (high end vs low end) is far less important than the vision and ability and the effort to realize that vision.

Sorry for any feathers I may ruffle but I maintain my right to have my opinion. In the immortal words of Stan Lee " 'nuff said" on this subject.

mike

3D ,Blender is free

2D ,Gimp is free

Landscapes ,Bryce is free

Characters ,DAZ Studio is free

So you can have a killer studio for free.

The only thing you might not have is dynamic hair cloth & micro displacement maps.

RogueElement

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=46655

witch is a 2D God and who has made there mark at sites like CGTalk where all the pro's are.

You could match his art with D/S & Gimp.

Now if ya want a killer 3D studio that you can do anything in

C4D $ 4000.00

Vue $ 1000.00

PhotoShop $ 650.00

zBrush $500.00

Poser $ 250.00

If you where making videos you would want apps like premier,after effects, sound forge all around $1500.00

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

I prefer Audition and SonicFirePro, myself.... ;P I'm glad to see the '$$$$$ of software does not equal equivalent talent' crowd out and about. And to add to it, all the expensive software in the world can't save a still from broken rules of lighting and compostion, or an animated short from a gawdawful script.

Hi Ashley

My name is Patorak,  nice to meet you.  Would you like to learn how to model poser figures?
BTW this is Jane's default face.

Cheers
Patorak

Hi **patorak.
**I think need to start learning how to use a basic modelling program first.
I've looked at Wings3d, Blander and ZBrush and I'm pretty mush lost.
Give me some time to come to terms with basic modelling techniques and I'll take up your offer.
Thanks.

Hi Ashley

Maya has a personal learning edition that is fully functional and free to download.
3d studio max has a 30 day demo version.  Lightwave also has a 30 day demo.

When you feel you are ready,  e mail me at    chieftanoclan7@sbcglobal.net  and we'll go through the process with the next figure in the plain folk line.  Plain Elaine.

Also,  when Jane is completed I'll be posting kind of a bibliography in the developers forum of all the books,  videos, and people that have helped me over the years.

In the meantime checkout the 3d modelling forum here at Renderosity and the 3d modelling forum at www.cgtalk.com 

Cheers
Patorak

Quote - Give me some time to come to terms with basic modelling techniques and I'll take up your offer...

If you are just starting out, my suggestion would be to get a handle on zBrush first. That is quickly becoming the standard for modelling organics and many people (and companies) now start with zBrush for their work. Version 3 is very nice in this as it lets you forget about the technical side of modelling and just sculpt what you want. Later when you are done, you can just hang a simple mesh onto your sculpt and export it for use in other apps.

Try the zBrush help forum for any questions you may have:

Zbrush Central

Good luck :)

Patorak nice mesh

Ashley9803

curently i model with C4D but I would model with Silo $100.00 before LW,Maya,zBrsuh.

http://www.nevercenter.com/

has learning edition and demo.

and a modeling human tutorail.

http://www.nevercenter.com/tutorials/html_tutorials/user_tutorials/character_modeling/

this was made for Max but i followed it in TrueSpace years a go.

http://67.15.36.49/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

ghonma

Does zBrush 3 have the polygon modeling tools that XSI,C4D,Silo has ?

zBrush 1,2 where great for micro displacement maps on meshes I modeled in C4D but I would not modeled a Poser mesh with zBrush.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Do you think I should start with modelling inorganic objects first, as a way to learning Zbrush, ie. import an .obj and fiddle with re-modelling it.
Or should I throw caution to the wind and attempt to model a head from scratch?
I just don't get what 90% of the ZBrush functions do. Some are for texturing and some for modelling.
I can make morphs with some success in ZBrush - the rest is Greek to me.
I'm on holidays from the end of next week, and this could be a good time to follow some of the ZBrush tutorials at Pixologic I've seen.
Thanks everyone.

Hi Ashley

The best way to learn your modelling app is to "  get under the hood"  so to speak.  So I would say do both.   

Start your preliminary work for your head.  you'll need reference pictures or make your own sketches of a side view and front view.  Study the anatomy of the head.  You may even want to sculpt your head in clay first.

One book I highly recommend is "  Creative Essence the face  "  by Ballistic Publishing.  You can find it at www.cgtalk.com .  Now it is not a step by step,   it deals more with theory. 

Hi  RorrKonn

Thanks, Jane is just about finished with stage 1  the form. 

Rorrkonn

Thats the great part, you dont really need any modelling functions, or even UV ones in zB 3. You just plonk a sphere on the canvas (or create a basic shape with zSpheres) and start sculpting away. Whenever you run out of polygons, you divide the mesh (zB 3 can handle millions of polygons easily) and keep sculpting. Once you are finished you can render in zB itself or if you want to animate or use the mesh in other apps, you create a simple low poly mesh on the model and zB transfers your sculpt onto the mesh for export. You can also export as displacement or normal maps if you like.

Look at this for an example:

Cyborg

Quote - Do you think I should start with modelling inorganic objects first, as a way to learning Zbrush, ie. import an .obj and fiddle with re-modelling it.

I would just dive right in with a sphere and start pushing and pulling at it. That's a good way to get comfortable with zBrush. Inorganic objects are not a good idea because zB actually sucks at creating that kind of models. Also there are a bunch of tutorials to get you started at zbrushcentral.

Try this tutorial for a quick look at how you go about an entire project in zBrush, from scratch to final render:

[ Making of 'Birth'

](http://www.zbrush.info/docs/index.php/The_Making_of_%22Birth%22_by_Francois_Rimasson_Featuring:_Transpose%2C_ZSpheres%2C_SubTools%2C_and_Mesh_Extraction) And some more :

Basics
More tutes
Tutes forum

Wait, Wait, Wait

Don't get me wrong zBrush is killer for what it does.I like zBrsuh.

BUT !!! it is not for character modeling in any app other then zBrush.

If you model a character in zBrush with million^100 polycount then lower the polycount for Poser the topology would be **WRONG !!!.**and just would not do.

As far as I know.

V3 was modeled in Lightwave.

V4 was modeled in Modo.Part of Lightwave broke off and made Modo.

These apps work like XSI,C4D,Max,Silo

LW,,XSI,C4D,Max all these app's work just a like

Modo,Silo models like LW,,XSI,C4D,Max.

Lightwave is 2 separated app's

Layout that ya render,animate in and modeler that you model in

Modo,Silo is like LW's Modeler.

They are all polygon modelers

I hate XSI's LW's modeler UI beyond words but love TrueSpace,C4D's UI's but they all work a like.

Think XSI is the best polygon modeler thou.

zBrush does not work like C4D,XSI etc etc.

zBrush is nothing more then a plug for app like C4D,Max etc etc

Should all modelers know zBrush ? absolutely

But they should know main app's polygon modeling first.

forget zBrush for now the only reson for zBrush in Poser is making morphs that Silo would do also.

I seldom use zBrush haven't even gotten 3 yet just don't need it.

Get a Silo something and do the tutorial.

http://www.nevercenter.com/tutorials/html_tutorials/user_tutorials/character_modeling/

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

"Runs away and hides in a corner because he can't understand what they're talking about."
New plan - load an existing .obj into ZBrush, play a bit with fingers crossed, export the .obj, use UVMapper and texture it., say "I can model", and hope everyone is fooled.

My bad, I'll make this understandable.

1 Forget about zBrush for now.

2 Get the Silo demo from here http://www.nevercenter.com/downloads/

3 Follow this step buy step tutorial http://www.nevercenter.com/tutorials/html_tutorials/user_tutorials/character_modeling/

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Quote - say "I can model", and hope everyone is fooled.

That's pretty much what we all do... The trick is in getting someone to actually pay you for it heh.

But seriously, try everything people are suggesting in this thread... you will eventually find something that works for you. The rest is just a butt load of practice and hard work.

Quote - If you model a character in zBrush with million^100 polycount then lower the polycount for Poser the topology would be WRONG !!!.and just would not do.

Topology in zB 3 is not an issue anymore. It lets you retop any mesh on the fly. You dont like the default topo of a sculpt, go in and draw it to what you want in zB. Your sculpt will be preserved exactly the way it was.

In any case, i'm not really gonna argue zB's merits with ya on a poser forum. I have been modelling in XSI and Lightwave for about 4 years now and zB only a few months. But i would never go back to working in those apps for organics. Its clumsy and slow compared to how you can work in zB. If zB were better for doing things like cars or architecture i would never even open XSI/LW.

oh no, no arguing just learning and getting educated.

As far as I know LW,XSI are the only 2 app's that will subD a Tri.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_T_Mix_Sub-D_Tri-Quad.htm

All other apps turn a Tri to a quad

see around the out side of the eyes

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm

So there rule is model 100% quads, witch is ridicules ,lol.

You can tell V4's Tri's where Quaded also.

I hate LW's UI and edgeless modeler and XSI UI so I refuse to model in either one.

Don't have XSI but will use LW's subD's.

I like modeling in C4D killer UI you can customize it anyway ya want,we even have a LW UI.

Wish we could just buy tools from deferent app's.

About draw the topology.

I don't model this way but in C4D ya can draw or lay edges over top another mesh and make a new mesh that way.

I know some use to do zBrush meshes this way.

I am guessing that is what ya mean buy drawing in zBrush.

If that is what works for you then I am all for it.

and it's still more or less modeling a character out of a plain / cube ya just using the zBrush mesh as a guide.

Always wanted to try Rhino for cars,mechs

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Yes that is what i mean by retop. It is very similar to what you can do in other apps, i know XSI has a similar tool as does Silo.

But the nice thing about doing it in zB is that you can do it for very very heavy meshes that crash most other apps. The max i can handle in XSI for example is like 2 million polys after which it becomes very hard to model. Lightwave starts becoming unstable at 1 million. In zB 2 million can be the amount of polys in a single shoe if i feel like it.

Also note that i'm not saying that one shouldn't learn other modellers, that you have to do anyway if you want to model anything inorganic. I'm just saying that the earlier you learn sculpting the better it is. It comes in handy for everything from modelling to bump/normal maps to texturing to morphs to JCMs and so on.

And i agree C4D is a great app, I use Bodypaint for a lot of texturing and it has a very clean and nice workflow.

Quote -  

I hate LW's UI and edgeless modeler and XSI UI so I refuse to model in either one.

 

IMO, Lightwave has the best UI of any of them, with Max and Rhino running a close second.  I guess different UI's "fit" different people, I can't get used to Shade, D4D, Hexagon, etc but some people love them. The thing then is to find whichever one "works" for you and stick with that one.

I think there are several apps that do basically the same things, with a few unique twists, and different GUIs. Most of them can use the same renderers, there are shader overlaps, tool overlaps, etc.
I've seen many many debates over which is best. It always seems to come down to user preference.
For hobby usage, pick what you like; but, some professions tend to use one app over another, and that is what determines which is going to be used. XSI could be a thousand times better than MAX; but if you are working for a arch-viz company that uses MAX w/ VRAY; you are going to use MAX w/ VRay, 40+ hours a week. If you are a FX guy in a studio using Maya, you will use Maya. And so on.

Competition is good! Gets the software corps. off their asses and into R&D. If there was only one app. in the world; it would never get upgraded.

ghonma

No never hurts to learn it all, wish I could upgrade my brain's CPU and RAM.

I originally got BP for LW so BP was my first Maxon Mod.

C4D 8 and below did not have nGons witch was insane but was mostly used for architects.

But over the past few years thay have gotten nGons version 9 and above ,Dynamic hair,cloth Cactus Dans character plugs so there advancing rather well for characters.

Ya can use Vue for landscapes,water.

wheatpenny

Ya LWer's love hot keys when I was learning LW and asked how do ya do this my answer would be hit p,w,t,u, & a lol

My first 3D App was icon driven TrueSpace 3,4 so I got use to icons.

I can make C4D UI look like TrueSpace or LW.

C4D has a LW UI.

dvlenk6

For all of use to be still using Softimage or Max 1 is not a pleasant thought.

Ilike upgrades and playing with all the app's i get bored easy.

And if can run any one of the main app's it's easy to run any of the others just find the tool.

LW it's called subpatch in C4D it's called hypernurb but it still a subdivid tool.

Would Be nice if we mix the app's.

And ya right what ever format thay want the boss gets but i swear thay always want some format ya going huh what apps that ?

and thay all want LOTR's,Matrix for $5.00 yeasterday ;) LOL.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com