Quote - If someone wants to buy props in the Marketplace -- or for that matter just take freestuff -- and then cobble together a scene, render it out & post it in the gallery for others to enjoy -- they've done absolutely nothing wrong.  Some might look down on such activity: they probably also look down on the fools who play touch football (I'm talking about American-style 'football') at a picnic because those people don't play for the NFL.

Sort of off topic, but what is touch football? Me being of the people that associate a football with round white balls with some black spots, I suppose it must be somehow related to american rugby (sorry, couldn't resist, hehehehehe).

Now seriously, is it a version without all the crash bang breaking bones intensity? At least that is what it sounds like

Quote - Sort of off topic, but what is touch football? Me being of the people that associate a football with round white balls with some black spots, I suppose it must be somehow related to american rugby (sorry, couldn't resist, hehehehehe).

Now seriously, is it a version without all the crash bang breaking bones intensity? At least that is what it sounds like

Touch football is a much-less-physically-intensive (and less physically risky) version of American-style football.  You 'tackle' your opponent merely by chasing them down and touching them.  Touch football is often used as a friendly divresion at events like small town 4th of July picnics.

Here's a far more detailed description than I can give you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_football_%28American%29

Like Poser hobbyists, touch football players have fun at what they do.  Cetain purists of the game of American football might condemn the touch football players for besmirching the sanctity of the REAL THING.  But that's the purist's problem -- not the problem of the people who are enjoying the picnic.

I believe that there are even touch football leagues.

Quote - What is a 'mesh monger'?

Someone who builds and sells meshes. Just like a "Pixel Jockey" would be shorthand for someone who deals in textures, or suchlike ;)

/P

Quote - "this thread, it seems anything priced according to the work someone puts into a model is too much.  There seems to be a strong reverse bias towards modellers here, in that modelling isn't viewed as an artform, but rather just something like being in the business of making 'supplies' for an artist."

I'm one of the few around here that views things the way they should be, imo. For me the modeler or content creator is the real artist, the user using the models or content is only a mere user, using someone elses art to create an image with it. Imo the end user doesn't create art at all, he's just using someone else's art to create an image.

And this is a case in point of one of the attitudes that provokes the backlash; the arrogance behind the illusion that a mesh model is somehow the be-all and end-all of CG. Once upon a time maybe, but now it is only one step in a process. Important, yes. A work of art on their own? Sometimes (but mesh modeling is also a technical excercise, and art critics are the =first= to point out that technical proficiency is not remotely analgous to artistic merit or ability; said critics are more likely to give kudos to color balancing and light construction. Harsh, but true.). But poor lighting will make even the most uber mesh look like shit. Bad shader design will render it pathetic. Screwy rigging in articulated mesh will render it useless. And if an animator doesn't breathe life and motion into it, it is nothing more than a virtual statue. Very, very few and very far between have been the instances where someone actully tried to claim a piece of purchased content as their own; and those caught at it were clobbered for it. Yet the sneer of ' you don't make it all, it ain't worth considering' is an almost constant background noise at many of those 'high end' sites. Which ignores the simple fact that out in the real professional world CG work is pretty much divided up into specializations for speed and efficiency and the simple fact that the number of people who truly can 'do it all' well is almost negligible compared to the amount of work available. Giving credit where credit is due is only polite. And honest. When I get the shorts I've been working on done, I won't have any problem whatsoever with giving Anton Kisiel credit as Apollo's creator, or Dan Cortopassi as Natalia's, or DAZ Studio's,(Or any of the other content creators, for that matter). They deserve it for -their- hard work. But without my work in keyframing, editing, lighting, camera planning etc., their work would be no more than 2 nude meshes in a static position and boringly lit, which would make for a pretty lame short movie, no? Just because others made the meshes I use does in no way entitle them to one hair of credit or glory for the work that =I= do. Bitter as some find the pill, the Poserverse actually mimics the pipeline methodology studios use. The important part is the end result: you have those who can manipulate mesh do what they do best, those who can make textures or shaders sing do their thing, let the light riggers and camera people deal with their area of expertise. The keyframers deal with their thing if it's an animation. Pull it all together, and you can get a finished product far greater than any one name in the process could have hoped to accomplish in quintuple the time. And it allows those who are good in only one or two things make their own statements, not force them to stand to one side because they can't do it all.Poser figures tend to be the 'B' actors, as they are easily recognized. Not being unique, it forces work to be done elsewhere to compensate. Ego-points are not a finite thing; get someone to go 'Ooooooh....' and bingo! Brand spanking new ego-points to play with.

Quote - someone who builds and sells meshes. Just like a "Pixel Jockey" would be shorthand for someone who deals in textures, or suchlike ;)
 

So......the folks at e-frontier or at DAZ (or Newtek or Maxon or Autodesk) should now be referred to as "software shills".  And the folks at HP who made my current PC should be known as "hardware jerks".  Likewise, all original 3D human figure creators need to be called "wireframe-humanoid biped pimps".

These names should help to put the term "mesh monger" into perspective.

I think the next model I make will be a dead horse flogger. 
I could make some good money selling it in this thread!

[Kitty: ducking and running]

Bring on the dead horse flogger model!  I like the idea a lot........the main reason being that I know just how much it would irritate people who need to be irritated.

Who knows?  Perhaps we'll discover a sense of humor buried somewhere along the way.

Quote - > Quote - someone who builds and sells meshes. Just like a "Pixel Jockey" would be shorthand for someone who deals in textures, or suchlike ;)

 

 
So......the folks at e-frontier or at DAZ (or Newtek or Maxon or Autodesk) should now be referred to as "software shills".  And the folks at HP who made my current PC should be known as "hardware jerks".  Likewise, all original 3D human figure creators need to be called "wireframe-humanoid biped pimps".

These names should help to put the term "mesh monger" into perspective.

Monger isn't a negative term at least I’ve never heard it used as such. jockeys is jocular unless your talking about those who are riding race horses. Shills are not sellers, they are people who pretend not to be associated with the seller and make positive comments about the goods in order to encourage buyers. Jerk is a personal opinion which may be accurate if your PC was a piece of crap.

Pimps, almost seems accurate given what some people like to do with their human figures :)

"Jerk" used to be used for "soda jerk" -- a term pretty much unknown today.  Perhaps the preferred term would be "hardware hacks".

"Monger" most definitely is a term with negative connotations.  As in the word "whoremonger".  Although it's sometimes used in a humorous sense.......but even in cases of intended humor: "monger" still carries a negative implication with it.  You wouldn't refer to your best friend or to your mother as a "monger" - except perhaps as a joke.

You are no doubt correct about the 'pimp' term.  So the next time that you send a request for tech support to a human figure creator, start out your message by saying: "Dear pimp........".  They'll catch your drift.

"I'm one of the few around here that views things the way they should be, imo. For me the modeler or content creator is the real artist, the user using the models or content is only a mere user, using someone elses art to create an image with it. Imo the end user doesn't create art at all, he's just using someone else's art to create an image".

Keep telling yourself that if you want. I've seen art done by purchasers that totally blew away what the creator of the content could have ever rendered. It really comes down to the fact that in computer graphics there are specialty's. Some are excellent UV mappers. Some are great texture makers. Some are excellent mesh builders. Some can put it all together in a scene and make it do more than the origanal artist who made it. The fact is computer graphics have gotten to technical for most to be a master of all. Areas of it have become a specialty. Same in Poser. Some are masters of python or the cloth room or face room or material room, but nobody that I'm aware of is the very best at all the above. I build and have one item for sale, but I'm not in it for the money otherwise I'd quit. I do it because I like it.

dogor,

ok, the only time i recall seen monger used (prior to this thread) was fishmonger, which i did not interprit as a negative.

i see what you mean with whoremonger, and i also ran accros hate-monger, however, the negative connitation (in my opinion) is dependant on the beginning of the word.

Actually, "fishmonger" is an archaic term which had negative connotations back in its day -- related to the term "fishwife".  The word essentially implied a base-born, lower-class, hard-cussing, hot-tempered boor who eked out a few shillings from selling fish so that he could then go down to the corner pub & throw the money away on gin while his children starved.

No.....not a term with good associations.

jeez! I hope y'all aren't bashing mesh mongers and pixel jockeys, as without them the poser universe would be hugely diminished.

Quote - jeez! I hope y'all aren't bashing mesh mongers and pixel jockeys, as without them the poser universe would be hugely diminished.

It'd be nonexistent.

Hurray for the Mesh Mongers and the Pixel Jockeys!  :thumbupboth:

I'm going to get really worried if people start calling each other 'degenerate facets', 'isolated vertices', 'flipped normals', 'raytracing artifacts' and 'floating point errors'.... 

Officer, honest, I only rebooted his face because he made my floating point error out. 
It was self defense!

We could make 'positive' connotations for those terms as well.

For instance, when I tell you that "I'm gonna flip your normals", that means "I'll point you in the right direction." ;}

unnnhh... um... I dunno....  you just keep off my normals, I don't have very many left, and most of those are all flipped out ;)
But perhaps you can help me out with the degenerate facets ;)

Don't even go near collinear facets!

No way! Those give me an instant divide by zero!

Quote -
As for vendors in the Marketplace -- some of them approach the job of being a vendor as a part-time endeavor which they do purely for fun.  Others view it as a way to finance their Poser addiction.  Still others make good, solid supplemental incomes off of their efforts -- and some even make a full living from it.  It's nowhere near as bad as a few would have us to believe.

Dude. You must be joking.

Nearly every other thread's first posts can be summarized as "Hi! I'd like to sell {item}" or "Hi! I will soon have {item} for sale!", or "Hi! I made {item} and I want to know if it's good enough to sell..." or worst of all: "Hi! I'm new here and I'd like to start selling stuff... how do I do that?" These easily outnumber topics covering improvements on artwork, or how to push the app further than it has ever gone before.

Free stuff is packed to the rafters with "Texture/poses/accessory/MAT for {item for sale}", and rarely items which don't require content purchases in the RMP or DAZ.

You don't even have to take my word for it - a cursory glance about the Poser forum and the Free Stuff section tells the whole tale.

Quote - But one thing that all of those multitudes of good, solid vendors do for the rest of us -- their hard work supplies the very life's blood which makes this website's existence possible.  So even if you never buy anything from a single vendor in the Marketplace.........you have benefited hugely from their labors: and you owe them a debt of gratitude.

I don't owe merchants an single thing beyond the stated amount on the price tag.

Neither do you.

Freestuff makers who aren't merchants simply out promoting their for-sale stuff? Mega-props and gratitude to them. Tute writers who take the time to show others what they've discovered? Awesome works and even more awesome gratitude (as someone who has actually written a user's manual, I can tell you that it is often just as hard to write and proof a tute as it is to build and sell some bit or bob). Folks who take the time to lend a hand to a lost newbie? Sweetness.

...but merchants? Nope. Glad they did it and all, but they got their reward when they cashed the check.

Nothing personal - just business. (emphasis added only to belabor the obvious).

Quote - BTW - volume DOES make up for high price.  It's a business model which has succeeded again and again.  Toyota is a much bigger company than Rolls Royce is.

Never said otherwise. OTOH, when you've got 400 different lingerie sets to choose from for a given mesh, you simply don't get the volume that you would otherwise have if there were only four, y'dig?

/P

Quote - jeez! I hope y'all aren't bashing mesh mongers and pixel jockeys, as without them the poser universe would be hugely diminished.

Nope - I got no beef with any of 'em.

Prevailing attitude? Yep - it needs help... badly.

Maybe it's my skewed expectations - I'm looking for a place to talk art technique, not an eBay PowerSellers' chatroom. Am I wrong in wanting that?

/P

Quote -
So......the folks at e-frontier or at DAZ (or Newtek or Maxon or Autodesk) should now be referred to as "software shills". 

"Code-Monkeys"

Already beat you to it ages ago ;)

/P

Quote - And this is a case in point of one of the attitudes that provokes the backlash; the arrogance behind the illusion that a mesh model is somehow the be-all and end-all of CG.

So why aren't you just using Photoshop alone, and be done with it?

/P

Nearly every other thread's first posts can be summarized as "Hi! I'd like to sell {item}" or "Hi! I will soon have {item} for sale!", or "Hi! I made {item} and I want to know if it's good enough to sell..." or worst of all: "Hi! I'm new here and I'd like to start selling stuff... how do I do that?" These easily outnumber topics covering improvements on artwork, or how to push the app further than it has ever gone before.

We must not be looking at the same forum.  I'm here a lot, and I see an ocassional clueless newbie make a sword or a shield, and want to sell it...  I think I remember two or three in last 6 months. 
Also, there are several threads going right now about pushing the app, and I haven't seen any of the 'hi I wanna sell'
You're are really exagerrating. Sort of like seeing someone light a match, and calling for a firetruck, yelling I caught an arson.

Quote - Maybe it's my skewed expectations - I'm looking for a place to talk art technique, not an eBay PowerSellers' chatroom. Am I wrong in wanting that?

Well, if you don't like this place there are plenty others that may suite your needs and interests better. However, speaking of wanting to talk art technique, how come I never see you participating in Art theory forum, and the new critique forum?
Otherwise you come across as trhowing out some whiny woe is me, wrapped up in platitudes.

So, I take it from now on, I'll see you in technique and art related threads and forums, and away from gripey-complaney-flamey threads. Right?  I mean if you want people to listen to what you have to saym then you need to substantiate it with your own behavior. You did hear about leading by example, no? I know, it's much easier to sit back and complain. I find myself fighting the urge to do it all the time.

Well, let's take a peek here, shall we?

From just the first page:

• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708575  (where can I buy this?)
• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708388  (I need help to buy something)
• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708252 (I'm thinking of selling this)
• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708335 (Q: "Where can I find..." A: "You can buy it here...")
• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708284 (ditto)
• http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708119 (about RMP promo images)

...just a quick glance.

Some days are worse than others, naturally.

Care to count the banner ads-as-signatures while we're at it? ;)

/P

Attached Link: http://www.auroratrek.com

Or to further the analogy to  animation: no movie director makes all the props, costumes & sets themselves, but there can still be artistry in their work. Like any medium, it's not the medium, it's how you use it.

--Tim

Quote -
Well, if you don't like this place there are plenty others that may suite your needs and interests better. However, speaking of wanting to talk art technique, how come I never see you participating in Art theory forum, and the new critique forum?

I used to see it all the time here. In the Poser forum.

Took a peek at the Art Theory Forum... it needs to grow. A lot.

Sorry if I don't respond to the attempts at insult - that's not what I'm looking to accomplish here.

Finance my addiction to Poser? What addiction(I'm in denial)? Further, the thing that amazes me is people who are actually making a living off of Poser selling props and textures(they ain't doing it with just Poser either) with all the freebies and give aways now who really needs to buy anything if they'll wait a few weeks or a few months somebody(Daz , CP or another free area) will have it available free along with a program to run it. Nobody thinks the free stuff hurts vendors sales? This is life in a half hobby world. I'm over it!

Some people do book covers, actual art people buy and most of them incorporate Vue or Carrara along with a 2d paint program besides Poser.

Quote - > Quote -

Well, if you don't like this place there are plenty others that may suite your needs and interests better. However, speaking of wanting to talk art technique, how come I never see you participating in Art theory forum, and the new critique forum?

I used to see it all the time here. In the Poser forum.

Took a peek at the Art Theory Forum... it needs to grow. A lot.

Sorry if I don't respond to the attempts at insult - that's not what I'm looking to accomplish here.

Too bad you saw it as insults. I was actually giving you advice. See, there's something in your behavior that plays into my mothering instinct, and I get the urge to give you advice about the birds and the bees and few other common things. However, youl're under no obligation to take it.  It is unfortunate to see you have a need to learn things the hard way, but oh well, can't save them all.
So, Penguinisto, I take it you're not planing on reining in your temper and making a positive constuctive contribution to the forums that could use some growth, ay? You know, putting your actions where your words are?

Quote - > Quote -

As for vendors in the Marketplace -- some of them approach the job of being a vendor as a part-time endeavor which they do purely for fun.  Others view it as a way to finance their Poser addiction.  Still others make good, solid supplemental incomes off of their efforts -- and some even make a full living from it.  It's nowhere near as bad as a few would have us to believe.

Dude. You must be joking.

Nope.  Not in the least.  I know people who are doing those very things.

Quote - Nearly every other thread's first posts can be summarized as "Hi! I'd like to sell {item}" or "Hi! I will soon have {item} for sale!", or "Hi! I made {item} and I want to know if it's good enough to sell..." or worst of all: "Hi! I'm new here and I'd like to start selling stuff... how do I do that?" These easily outnumber topics covering improvements on artwork, or how to push the app further than it has ever gone before.

I agree with Connie that this is just a wee bit of an exaggeration here.  But even if it weren't an exaggeration -- so what?  Would that (grossly overstated) state of affairs translate into the specious idea that "nobody can make any money doing this"?  I happen to know people who are -- personal knowledge revealing the weakness in your argument.

And they aren't all top sellers, either.

Quote - Free stuff is packed to the rafters with "Texture/poses/accessory/MAT for {item for sale}", and rarely items which don't require content purchases in the RMP or DAZ.

You don't even have to take my word for it - a cursory glance about the Poser forum and the Free Stuff section tells the whole tale.

Free stuff is great.  I love freestuff.  Many vendors provide it to us on a regular basis.

Tell me -- if free stuff is so bad for business, then why is Rendo hosting it?

Quote - > Quote - But one thing that all of those multitudes of good, solid vendors do for the rest of us -- their hard work supplies the very life's blood which makes this website's existence possible.  So even if you never buy anything from a single vendor in the Marketplace.........you have benefited hugely from their labors: and you owe them a debt of gratitude.

I don't owe merchants an single thing beyond the stated amount on the price tag.

Neither do you.

Freestuff makers who aren't merchants simply out promoting their for-sale stuff? Mega-props and gratitude to them. Tute writers who take the time to show others what they've discovered? Awesome works and even more awesome gratitude (as someone who has actually written a user's manual, I can tell you that it is often just as hard to write and proof a tute as it is to build and sell some bit or bob). Folks who take the time to lend a hand to a lost newbie? Sweetness.

...but merchants? Nope. Glad they did it and all, but they got their reward when they cashed the check.

Nothing personal - just business. (emphasis added only to belabor the obvious).

And a website which wouldn't exist without the vendors providing the financial wherewithal to run it.  The free stuff providers / tute writers / artists et al would have to find another place to host their gifts without the absolutely essential financial underpinning which is needed to run the business where they can freely post their freestuff.

Yep -- a debt of gratitude is owed.  But such matters are, of course, only to be found in the purview of the grateful.  Buying stuff from the vendors doesn't hurt -- but it's not required.  You can download all the free stuff that you like: and you can do so for the subscription price which Rendo charges for membership on the site.

Hey -- you can even post in the forums: which are likewise provided for us by the work of the merchants.

Free stuff is wonderful -- no doubt about that.  But it doesn't pay for bandwidth.

Quote - > Quote - BTW - volume DOES make up for high price.  It's a business model which has succeeded again and again.  Toyota is a much bigger company than Rolls Royce is.

Never said otherwise. OTOH, when you've got 400 different lingerie sets to choose from for a given mesh, you simply don't get the volume that you would otherwise have if there were only four, y'dig?

/P

Hmmm....I seem to recall you saying something else.......but leave it.

Toyota manufactures a much wider variety of models than Roll Royce does.  Dig?  :biggrin:

Quote - that's not what I'm looking to accomplish here.

Which is.......what, exactly...........?

Quote - > Quote - And this is a case in point of one of the attitudes that provokes the backlash; the arrogance behind the illusion that a mesh model is somehow the be-all and end-all of CG.

So why aren't you just using Photoshop alone, and be done with it?

/P

Maybe because I can render 3D frames, with keyframing and other setup times included, far faster than I could ever hope to hand draw a like number of frames in Photoshop or any other paint program?

Quote -
I agree with Connie that this is just a wee bit of an exaggeration here.  But even if it weren't an exaggeration -- so what?  Would that (grossly overstated) state of affairs translate into the specious idea that "nobody can make any money doing this"?  I happen to know people who are -- personal knowledge revealing the weakness in your argument.

And they aren't all top sellers, either.

Please point out where I said that no one makes money at this. The difference is in how much is made, and the motivations behind it.

Quote -
Free stuff is great.  I love freestuff.  Many vendors provide it to us on a regular basis.

Tell me -- if free stuff is so bad for business, then why is Rendo hosting it?

I have instead a question for you: Tell me what percentage of Poser freestuff posted here doesn't require purchasing anything beyond Poser (or downloading D|S).

It's a shrinking number, especially when compared to long ago.

Quote - And a website which wouldn't exist without the vendors providing the financial wherewithal to run it.

Really? Why do you insist that such a thing must be true? After all, how many consignment or direct merchants sell things from sites such as Tom's Hardware? Slashdot? Drudge Report? Craigslist? MySpace? Facebook? These sites make quite a bit of bank on advertisement alone... and Craigslist doesn't even do that, IIRC.

Each of the aforementioned sites dwarf Renderosity in bandwidth and traffic diversity by sheer orders of magnitude. Yet for some odd reason they scrape by quite nicely without having a store to rely on for support.

So, tell me - why are you so certain that a "Marketplace" is so necessary again? :)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - BTW - volume DOES make up for high price.  It's a business model which has succeeded again and again.  Toyota is a much bigger company than Rolls Royce is.

Never said otherwise. OTOH, when you've got 400 different lingerie sets to choose from for a given mesh, you simply don't get the volume that you would otherwise have if there were only four, y'dig?

/P

 

Hmmm....I seem to recall you saying something else.......but leave it.

No, that is exactly what I said - sits right in the post.

/P

*As for vendors in the Marketplace -- some of them approach the job of being a vendor as a part-time endeavor which they do purely for fun.  Others view it as a way to finance their Poser addiction.  Still others make good, solid supplemental incomes off of their efforts -- and some even make a full living from it.  It's nowhere near as bad as a few would have us to believe."

*In other words merchants are lying to us? We all know Faverall..... he's one of the top merchants at DAZ.... he claimed a while ago when a discussion on this topic arose, that he couldn't live of it and that it didn't even generate a solid income for him, at times content offer would cost more to create then it made in revenue. Other merchants chimed in making the same claims. I had a hard time believing them then and I still don't now...... I only sell games at CP, not even content and it generates enough to feed my poser addiction. I can't live of the games I'm selling at CP, but I'm sure with poser content it's completely different. After all CP and so on isn't for games, but for content.

*I have instead a question for you: Tell me what percentage of Poser freestuff posted here doesn't require purchasing anything beyond Poser (or downloading D|S). 

*Don't know the percentage, but it's still quite a lot. Thinking about the weekly DAZ and CP freebies , you can have at least over 100 quality items each year and on top of that quite some free stuff offered here, a lot of it still stand-alone.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - And this is a case in point of one of the attitudes that provokes the backlash; the arrogance behind the illusion that a mesh model is somehow the be-all and end-all of CG.

So why aren't you just using Photoshop alone, and be done with it?

Maybe because I can render 3D frames, with keyframing and other setup times included, far faster than I could ever hope to hand draw a like number of frames in Photoshop or any other paint program?

...then mesh is a necessity to you, no?

Of course, there's always Manga Studio, I suppose...

/P

Quote - See, there's something in your behavior that plays into my mothering instinct, and I get the urge to give you advice about the birds and the bees and few other common things. However, youl're under no obligation to take it.  It is unfortunate to see you have a need to learn things the hard way, but oh well, can't save them all.
So, Penguinisto, I take it you're not planing on reining in your temper and making a positive constuctive contribution to the forums that could use some growth, ay? You know, putting your actions where your words are?

Awwww, you're so darn cute when you're condescending!

But this you should know: I have no use for temper here... I'm just debating. Sorry if it got you riled enough to sink deep into ad hominem territory.

So... if you're still curious, the reason why I don't bother posting art theory &tc here? Because I like to read them instead. I figure that between all the esoteric stuff I've done in and about Poserdom for all this time, I feel kind of entitled to passively soak in what good stuff I do find.

Does that offend you?

/P

Quote - *

*Don't know the percentage, but it's still quite a lot. Thinking about the weekly DAZ and CP freebies , you can have at least over 100 quality items each year and on top of that quite some free stuff offered here, a lot of it still stand-alone.

DAZ I can agree on. CP I can agree on, but only because I haven't looked there recently. Rendo? Umm, well...

/P

"In other words merchants are lying to us? We all know Faverall..... he's one of the top merchants at DAZ.... he claimed a while ago when a discussion on this topic arose, that he couldn't live of it and that it didn't even generate a solid income for him, at times content offer would cost more to create then it made in revenue. Other merchants chimed in making the same claims. I had a hard time believing them then and I still don't now...... I only sell games at CP, not even content and it generates enough to feed my poser addiction. I can't live of the games I'm selling at CP, but I'm sure with poser content it's completely different. After all CP and so on isn't for games, but for content".

Don't forget some post site links in the free area and beg for donations that make the site zero and have sale items in the store here too. Nobody knows how much in donations they make. The idea is is to provide some free stuff and make you feel like making a donation. You know, Mr. Bojangles.

I have instead a question for you: Tell me what percentage of Poser freestuff posted here doesn't require purchasing anything beyond Poser (or downloading D|S). 

Lelle see, V3 is/was free, and that chick has all the clothes. I hear people complaining all the time how most of the stuff is for V3. So, I'd say majority of the free content doesn't require purchasing anything past the Poser. 
Most pf the props that lot of top vendors tend to give away as freebies don't requre purchases. I was looking at stonemason's freenies for example, none of them require purchase of his other things.
Looking at some top sellers... Aery soul, evben though lot of theiur freenies are for their character(s) they also work on plain V3 (I used them)
41 pages of freebies for V3 - that's 1443 items. + 43 for apollo + 492 for poser 4 people + 57 mats for P5 + 58 for p5 people + 3165 poser props + 300 utilities + 457 for Aiko (was available  for free) + 255 for M3 + about 300 in P6 and p7 freebies + 420 in themed props

So, out of current 10,584 current Poser freebies, looks like at least some 7000 don't require a purchase of another product.

May I suggest a foot out of mouth extractor at this point? (one of my 3d mesh freebies)

I've been looking for one those 'foot out of mouth extractors'!  Is this the standard model or the deluxe version with mouth rinse (listerine or soap depending upon bent)? ;)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - And this is a case in point of one of the attitudes that provokes the backlash; the arrogance behind the illusion that a mesh model is somehow the be-all and end-all of CG.

So why aren't you just using Photoshop alone, and be done with it?

Maybe because I can render 3D frames, with keyframing and other setup times included, far faster than I could ever hope to hand draw a like number of frames in Photoshop or any other paint program?

...then mesh is a necessity to you, no?

Of course, there's always Manga Studio, I suppose...

/P

???? I don't recall ever saying mesh wasn't important; just that it was not the be all and end all of CG. Particularly in animation (you know, the moving stuff), it is only one part in a pipeline. worthy of credit for what it is, and not entitled to the credit of the other stages that have little or no bearing on its existance. Good lighting is good lighting, regardless. Same with camera work. Next?

Quote - I've been looking for one those 'foot out of mouth extractors'!  Is this the standard model or the deluxe version with mouth rinse (listerine or soap depending upon bent)? ;)

Some folks obviously find the posture of foot in mouth to be quite comfortable.  It would be a bit awkward for others to try to do it all of the time.  But some manage the trick convincingly: and they graciously demostrate it for us right here in the forums.

Quote - Please point out where I said that no one makes money at this. The difference is in how much is made, and the motivations behind it.

As for the "motivations behind it", I can suggest a few.  Eating is one that comes to mind.

Since you insist on being reminded of your own words from an earlier post, here we go:

Quote - There was once a time when volume made up for price; back when the RMP here had less than 300 "merchants". There was a time when a solid modeller with an eye on the community could rake in a solid living from just selling stuff here.

Now - it's a flood. Just like a Gold Rush, most of the money has been made; there is still some to be made, but very few will reach the heights once held by the 'big hitters' of 5 years ago. Of course, that doesn't stop the masses from giving it a go.

The obvious implication here being that potential newbie marketeers shouldn't bother; the mines are now exhausted -- every bit of ore that there could conceivably be is already gone. :rolleyes:  About like the old saw about the man who supposedly proposed closing down the patent office -- because everything that could be invented had already been invented...........

Just keep thinking that way -- (the converse philosophy is one reason why Rendo is successful & growing).  There are entrepreneurs: and then there is the 'sittin' around the bus station crowd'.  It's all hopeless and bleak anyway -- and the clouds in the sky are all gray sigh.  So don't anyone trouble themselves to "give it a go".  You've already lost before you even begin to play the game.  The deck's all stacked against you.........sob sob..........:crying:......it's just so incredibly unfair.

In the meantime: please hand me the pan -- I think that I detect a sparkle in the stream.

Quote - > Quote -

Free stuff is great.  I love freestuff.  Many vendors provide it to us on a regular basis.

Tell me -- if free stuff is so bad for business, then why is Rendo hosting it?

I have instead a question for you: Tell me what percentage of Poser freestuff posted here doesn't require purchasing anything beyond Poser (or downloading D|S).

Tons.  I've downloaded a lot of it myself.

So now you answer my question.

Quote - > Quote - And a website which wouldn't exist without the vendors providing the financial wherewithal to run it.

Really? Why do you insist that such a thing must be true? After all, how many consignment or direct merchants sell things from sites such as Tom's Hardware? Slashdot? Drudge Report? Craigslist? MySpace? Facebook? These sites make quite a bit of bank on advertisement alone... and Craigslist doesn't even do that, IIRC.

I insist on such a thing because it's true -- or I suppose that Rendo could become a subscription site like some other 3D sites are.

A store is one business model.  And the great success of Rendo's store demostrates just how effective that business model can be.  Then there are websites with other types of business models -- which collect their operational budgets in other ways.  So what?  The money still has to come from somewhere.  But I suppose that in your worldview: it's all run by magic.

Does a website need to be the size of Drudge or Youtube, etc. before it qualifies as a successful one?  Drudge and Youtube -- as well as those few extras on your list -- all cater to different tastes & to different public desires/needs.  For Rendo to become more like Drudge, Rendo would need to drop the 3D entirely and become a political newslink service with commentary sprinkled in.  I.....doubt that's in the current business plan.  Or for Rendo to become more like MySpace (yechhhh), Rendo would need to re-invent itself into a personalized pure-blog site.  I don't think that's in the business plan, either.

Quote - No, that is exactly what I said - sits right in the post.

Sittin' on the post isn't a comfortable place to be........sittin' IN the post must be downright painful.

Now I really need to go do something productive for awhile.  I'll check back in later to get my dose of forum follies -- complete with loud circus-type calliope music being played while painted performers put on a spectacular show of balancing themselves precariously on top of posts.

Quote - Bring on the Kitty Cats!

Bring 'em on!

I think there's a contest going of who can post the most freebies. I've never posted any. Why? I've seen too many posts of people griping about the quality and/or the hassle they went through to get them(meaning they didn't appreciate it and expect something excellent for nothing). I think the quality of freebies has gotten better in the last few years (steadily) and some claim they'd rather post their work as a freebie because it's too much hassle to be a merchant. 

I think the best way to do it is as a bonus with a purchased product and I love getting added gifts in a product ; so this draws people to spend and eliminates dead beats who complain and burn up bandwidth over something they didn't spend a dime on. 

Quote - I've been looking for one those 'foot out of mouth extractors'!  Is this the standard model or the deluxe version with mouth rinse (listerine or soap depending upon bent)? ;)

hehehe, you can see a pic here:  http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1286310&member
I forgot, It's not in my freestuff, but I did make the mesh available for a dl... I think in another forum.
It's an old model I whipped out for bryce, it's not UV mapped, and might be hi polygom, but what the heck, it may be fun playing with it!
www.cb-design.net/footmouth2.zip

I'm serious, I'm making the dead horse flogger next!!!