In poser what node is used for the normal map and into what root is it connected?

Stonemason do your buildings come with displacement, bump or normal maps or none of the above?

::::: Opera :::::

I see.....XYZ are encoded in the RGB and albedo in the alpha chanel if it exists. How ingenious.

I also just noticed (I am reading Wikipedia) that the Nvidia cards have normal rendering implemented in hardware. They are speaking about gamer cards right there, but hopefully it is also implemented in Nvidia's DCC cards: I just bought a Quadro FX 570. It is sitting on a box on my table awaiting installation tomorrow.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - In poser what node is used for the normal map and into what root is it connected?

Stonemason do your buildings come with displacement, bump or normal maps or none of the above?

::::: Opera :::::

in Poser,plug the normal map into the gradient bump channel

with normal mapping being a real time effect that Poser or D|S can't do there's never been a need to supply bumps in normal map format,and at rendertime grayscale bump v's RGB bump looks more or less the same.
also keeping bumps as grayscale gives the end user the option to plug into the displacement node,which the average user couldn't do if all bumps were in RGB
a few of my scenes have displacement applied by default.
 A lot of my buildings are made as game content & do have normal maps,some of them have parallax mapping(real time displacement) where a height map is placed in the alpha channel of a normal map..if you've got a decent card then it's viewed as a real time displacement..but again as Poser doesn't offer support for those things I tend too offer only grayscale bumps or displacement in the commercial versions

http://www.crazybump.com/
btw,crazybump is a great tool for converting grayscale images to normal  & displacement map format

that's damn handy, I've been looking for a high quality tool of just that type.  thanks!

Why not just buy a plugin for the high end app and kick Poser to the curb? I thought high end apps were for building Poser content..depends on where you want to go I guess.

Or is Poser Pro basically a plugin for multiple high end apps?    

Quote -  A lot of my buildings are made as game content & do have normal maps,some of them have parallax mapping(real time displacement) where a height map is placed in the alpha channel of a normal map..if you've got a decent card then it's viewed as a real time displacement..but again as Poser doesn't offer support for those things I tend too offer only grayscale bumps or displacement in the commercial versions

Stonemason, could you possibly provide a screen shot of that setup? The height map placed in the alpha channel of a normal map...I take it this is done in Phototshop??? Just guessing here, or are you doing a crazy material render node plugin thingy?
Thanks

I have read all of these threads and I'm in the same little boat with **SoCalRoberta, I can't aford the BIG BOYS TOYS like C4D, Lightwave 3D $$$tudio Max and others, From a purely Amateur standpoint I will upgrade from 7 to PRO, I like my renders in Poser Supposedly Quidom (full release) will be included also, plus 64 bit, how can a hobbyist go wrong? I got the Poser 7 bundle with Vue 6 Esprit and tried to render a poser figure in it, I admit I am a RANK amateur, it looked like crap. I can get Frazetta like renders and reallity renders in Poser although setting up the f--ing lighting is a killer for me. As I said from a hobbyists point of view, POSERPRO will be worth the bucks and I will side upgrade to it.
**

Quote - > Quote -  A lot of my buildings are made as game content & do have normal maps,some of them have parallax mapping(real time displacement) where a height map is placed in the alpha channel of a normal map..if you've got a decent card then it's viewed as a real time displacement..but again as Poser doesn't offer support for those things I tend too offer only grayscale bumps or displacement in the commercial versions

 

Stonemason, could you possibly provide a screen shot of that setup? The height map placed in the alpha channel of a normal map...I take it this is done in Phototshop??? Just guessing here, or are you doing a crazy material render node plugin thingy?
Thanks

sorry, as mentioned at the end of my post,you cant do it in Poser so I only supply the grayscale version for Poser users
here's what the texture set-up would look like,
http://www.stefan-morrell.com/SM_textureTut_final01.jpg
..you add a suffix to the image name & the game engine will treat it as a parallax map & render accordingly,different engines may have different setups..this is how I do it in Cryengine2

with xnormal you can view parallax mapping in action,includes a couple sample files
http://www.xnormal.net/

Okay, bummer.
Thanks for explaining it a bit more for me and the screen grabs/links, I really appreciate it. 
Can use all the help I can get over here.

Regards

I'll wait until Poser Pro has been out for a year and I've been able to read all the forum threads. Then evaluation isn't going to be a problem then, besides I use Lightwave. As much as it has been dogged in this thread I still think it's one of the best out there and I like using it. I personally have to look at what I already have/use and then look at what's new. Can I improve my capabilities with the software I already have and save a buck or two at the same time? It pays to look around at what's coming or already available these days. It doesn't appear to support Lightwave much. So what's the point  from where I stand? I'm not interested in it now. A lot of other people won't be either. I suppose it supports Modo either and I've heard nothing about Z brush either. See Ya  

dogor.

Well if it supports Collada, then it'll work with Modo, right, since it can load Collada files?

I'm guessing the Lightwave omission is either an oversight, or that it might not make the initial release for some reason.

And if I'm knocking lightwave, it's because I've used it for over 20 years now, but newtek seems in the last 3 years or so to be falling behind further and further each year, and I'm really pissed at them that they are allowing that to happen.

Too bad modeler and layout aren;t separate products, and Modo doesn't have a Layout hook. You could use Modo as a replacement for for modeler seamlessly.. hehee!

Yes -- if Newtek doesn't watch it, Modo might end up blowing them out of the water at some point.  Modo might even end up displacing a number of the "big boys" as the modeling software of choice down the road -- once people begin to fully grasp just exactly what Modo is, and what it can do.  And for less money than the others, on the average.

I recall a time when Lightwave was the "IT" app -- fresh, and hip.  Too bad that it looks like it's losing that luster.  Perhaps to be replaced by something new & fresh.......like Modo.

E-frontier still needs to support Lightwave, though.  COLLADA might be sufficient to do the trick.

She likes pina "Collada" and getting caught in the rain. LOL.... You would think Poser standard or regular would be able to handle Collada soon or it's going to get left behind. You could be right that Modo is going to be the next "IT" modeling program, but it seems Poser Pro is catering to C4D and Maya. They're not even saying what version of LWO that PP is going to import on the pdf. Could be 7 , 8 or 9 even and it could be just 6.
 
What I don't like is PP is getting all the fancy stuff and hey Poser was built by the guys/gals-hobbists that bought the regular versions. If they don't keep pumping up the regular Poser 7 with good updates and support then it's getting put on the back burner for there new favorite toy PP. There are plenty of plugins and go arounds already available and they don't cost $500. We'll see how well it goes over when it's released. I'm not buying out the gate and I feel like it's sucking attention from the common user-their bread and butter up till now.  

For me, I don't use Poser for rendering at all. Even the vaunted Firefly renderer is too much work and too much of a resource hog to for me to get good-quality images.

What attracts me to Poser is the content libraries. Daz, Renderosity, CP, and others out there have generated thousands of low-cost, good-quality meshes. While vehicles and sets are no problem to import into LW or any other app, the characters are the proverbial "holy grail" for me. I could spend upwards of $2K to buy C4D and the add-ons necessary to get the same functionality as I have in LW right now and then I could bring in the characters as well via Body Studio or Interposer.

Or I could spend $500 on PPro to get the similar functionality with my copy of LW via scene hosting or collada. That's what makes this attractive to me.

The common-user that dogor refers to is not a fixed base. People transition into and out of that base constantly. I suppose that I would have been a common-user at one point but at the time I was getting into 3D in a serious way, Poser was at version 1. It wasn't until Poser 6 that I started looking at Poser as a viable app to add into my workflow. And even then, I find myself pushing the limits of what Poser can do.
All I want is for Poser and LW to talk to each other without too much work involved. Make it work, and make it easy enough to use.

PPro does have the potential to start opening up new markets for Poser and Poser content. Even though I have run into a LOT of vitriol in visiting other forums and hearing what they say about Poser from the self-styled pros, I know that the real pros will use whatever tool will get the job done and not care about the pedigree.

Quote - All I want is for Poser and LW to talk to each other without too much work involved. Make it work, and make it easy enough to use.

Very well said.  I agree 110%.

Quote - PPro does have the potential to start opening up new markets for Poser and Poser content.

Yes -- that's true, too.  No doubt about it -- that's exactly what ef is shooting for here.

Quote - Even though I have run into a LOT of vitriol in visiting other forums and hearing what they say about Poser from the self-styled pros, I know that the real pros will use whatever tool will get the job done and not care about the pedigree.

Yes -- I've never understood why (in the 3D world) -- the value of equivalent final results in an image / animation is judged upon which app(s) you used to achieve those results.

The sight & the feel of a fine car racing down the road is what matters in the end -- not which brand of tools you used to change the oil, or to tune the car up.

Although, admittedly: some tools might make it easier to get the job done than others.  And to some people's way of thinking: 'easier' = 'unprofessional'.  Or evil.

Quote- "Although, admittedly: some tools might make it easier to get the job done than others.  And to some people's way of thinking: 'easier' = 'unprofessional'.  Or evil."

You forgot lazy. :0)

Why evil? Because easier means cheaper and if everyone accepts pre-made content the price is going to go down on the work. High enders get paid more for unique content and prabably always will.

Quote - > Quote - I'd like to see real time, ray traced, global illumination (multiple forms) of gigapoly meshes on my home PC.

Is that too much to ask for?
I'd be willing to pay up to $1.99 for that.:biggrin:

:biggrin: If your home PC looks like this, sure: (For the record, I'm joking. If you really have this computer at home, I will give you real time, ray traced, global illumination (multiple forms) of gigapoly meshes for the low price of $199,000.)

All I am missing is the NASA Stickers for the side of my machine!  

Here is a link with some more information...

http://www.poserpro.net/blog/poser_pro/

I heard that each copy of Poser Pro was shipping w/ one of those.
But that could just be a rumor.

Ok. Good to see that they're at least getting some more information out via a developers' blog.

I'm not thrilled about LW support being released at a later date, but with LW going to built-in collada support in the coming year, this should still be usable for me. I'm not too upset overall.

I'll buy PPro on its release and wait for LW support. It's still cheaper than switching to C4D, Max, or Maya.

Thanks for posting the blog link ratscloset!

So Lightwave is still in the mix.  Just delayed.  Well and good -- I can live with that.  With this news: getting the full "Pro" version is now on again with me.

Thanks for the link, ratscloset!

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

for whoever said this:

bring in the characters as well via Body Studio <<<<
and anyone else who thinks that's what Body Studio (before or after being bought by EF) does.

IT IS ONLY HOSTING. Once you get your scene into Max, Maya or Cinema you will not be able to move anything. No morphing or adjusting. NOTHING NADA.

[COLLADA is a different thing; so is Interposer/Cinema; with those you actually DO bring in the characters.]

::::: Opera :::::

I wouldn't hold newtek to the collada format import too soon.. I've been waiting almost 2 years now for the new improvements were were supposed to see in Modeler with the last release.

That could actually be a lot of the issues of EF working with Newtek.. newtek's heads are so far up their @$$es that they can't keep them out long enough to give EF the info they need.

Bear in mind I go back to Lightwave 1.0, and I was a HUGE lightwave supported fo ralmost 20 years now, but they jumped the shark a few years ago, and have never gotten back on track.

Gareee! Wow you must be frustrated because I have never heard you....

Ah, never mind, have at it!!!

Here's my question:

Isn't Lightwave a full spectrum app? With rigging and skinning and shaders and morphs and animation and render?  So, behind or jumping a shark, nevertheless how can people compare it to Modo, which is a modeler?

Mind you, I think Modo is splendid and even wicked splendid, but it is not for animation. (Yes I know you can animate the camera now, which is good, but that is no "Animation.")

::::: Opera :::::

Hey Opera, you can animate other than with the camera with Modo. You have all the different type of morping tools that can be key framed in. Sure. it is not as easy as the full animation apps do, but it can be done.  Pin rigging works very well, so most machanical models can be animated. Pin rigging, ball jointing and morphs could work quite well for other figures. Just thought of all that will I was typing. Will have to go test my theory. BJD might be a good figure to test it with. 

I'm hoping that future versions of modo will have rigging and more animation functions.

Quote - for whoever said this:

bring in the characters as well via Body Studio <<<<
and anyone else who thinks that's what Body Studio (before or after being bought by EF) does.

IT IS ONLY HOSTING. Once you get your scene into Max, Maya or Cinema you will not be able to move anything. No morphing or adjusting. NOTHING NADA.

Good point on the PSA Opera, but I wasn't concerned at this point about being able to bring fully-rigged characters into LW. I'll just be happy with hosting--it will give me access to LW's renderer for animations.

I'll want to have fully rigged characters imported into LW at a later date. For now, hosting is sufficient for a project I have in mind.
On a side topic. whether or not Poser will create an effective character importer into LW or any other 3D app is likely to be a point of contention. Poser's content library has Poser or Poser Pro as a gateway. Write a means of importing Poser content into LW, and what do you need Poser for?

Lightwave is a full app.. but many people in the industry use it mainly for it's modeler, and then used that content in other more popular apps (like xsi or max)but since modo has gotten so far ahead of newtek that way, many re jumping ship to modo and using that as thier modeler instead.

What's killing them in the pro industry, if other major player are adding features left and right, while newtek is STILL playing catch up to 2 years old features.

Great example: Lightwave still doesn't have any uv unwrap feature built in. also no Uv relax feature! Fortunately, there IS a free plugin that's servicable for those applications, but that's a REAL base function npt to have in yet.. bearing in mind we are talking about the program that SHOULD be the leader in features, since it's been around the longest.

I probably have never used more the 30% of lightwave's capabilites, since I ONLY really use it as my modeler and my occasional renderer, but seeing it surpassed to badly in the last few years is heartbreaking.

Its like having a fmaily member who has gotten too old, and just can;'t quite do some things they used to do before.

And yes, I AM that upset with the way newtek has been managing lightwave the last 3-4 years.

11/8/07

Operaguy (or anyone):

I will risk looking really stupid, but as I have said, I am just a hobbyist. What exactly does one get with scene hosting in an application like Maya or Cinema?  If one hosts a scene in one of these applications, what does one have to do to be ready to render?

LMK

ic, thanks for the explanation Gareee and go forth and swear all you want!

On Modo, I saw an animation rendered in MODO which was a camera flyacross a room. It was great. I wish it all the best at becoming a great full spectrum program and drag its modeling base with it.

Write a means of importing Poser content into LW, and what do you need Poser for? << Yes I agree! This is now becoming a sudden reality in Carrara, as well.

::::: Opera ::::

lkendall, assuming you get the scene to actually load in Max, all you can do, and all you need to do, is light the thing with Max lighting and render. Lights might even come in with the scene, I am not sure, in which case all you do is render.

Note: render settings in Max, Maya, etc., are not trivial!

The advantage most people seek is power rendering in the hosting application versus Poser rendering, as rjandron is seeking above; a very worthy goal. If they are hosting-a-pz3-oriented, they prefer NOT to have to do anything else in the host but render.

While I am not in favor of hosting for my self personally, I have no judgment on it for anyone else. My PSA was for the purpose of helping people avoid crushing disappointment from false expectations, one way or another, of what Body Studio type hosting can do.

::::: Opera :::::

"Poser's content library has Poser or Poser Pro as a gateway. Write a means of importing Poser content into LW, and what do you need Poser for?"

That is exactly what Daz is telling everyone with Carrara. LOL.

Could also be one of the reasons why EF is doing the pro thing. I don't know, it's just a guess.

I suspect the Carrara 6 Pro implementation IS part of the reason EF is doing the Pro thing. C6 reads a runtime folder down to the last item and all the morphs are there when you click an item into the viewport. It's pretty damn good.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - "Poser's content library has Poser or Poser Pro as a gateway. Write a means of importing Poser content into LW, and what do you need Poser for?"

That is exactly what Daz is telling everyone with Carrara. LOL.

Could also be one of the reasons why EF is doing the pro thing. I don't know, it's just a guess.

This is why I wrote interPoser Pro.  For a while there - a couple years at least - there was no simple bridge between Poser and other apps.  You could assuredly export the Wavefront OBJ file and re-texture, re-light, re-camera in other apps.  You would lose animation and other functionality and any changes required redoing the process.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), Carrara and Poser go way back (to MetaCreations) with some similar roots.  Other 3D apps don't have that kinship and require some hefty fiddling to emulate Poser features.

Aside: My beef with LightWave3D is exactly the reasons stated already for why I dumped it.  It hasn't been mentioned but NewTek has been long in neglecting LW and it is starting really to show in the disparity between it and other similar applicaitons.  NewTek had a major version upgrade that was no such thing and seems to have been negligent since - I feel vindicated in my decision.  "Panicked scrambling" seems to be the phrase o' the day for NewTek's realization that sitting on your ASS while everyone else moves forward will not improve your sales and customer loyalty.  I hope they do two things: stop side ventures and merge the two apps into one (as no other application works in this weird, unintuitive manner).

I'm not ready to "dump Lightwave".......but I have to admit that Modo has gotten my attention in a big way.

And, yeah: I like Carrara, too.

Poser, IMO, has a solid future ahead of itself: so long as they don't blow it.  Poser has a large and growing userbase -- and FAR more name-recognition in the industry than some others, love it or hate it.  

But this upcoming release of Poser Pro will be an important trial run for it's future, I am thinking (Nah -- no pressure, no pressure at all.......).

Lot of talk in this thread about Modo and Lightwave.  For those that do not know ...

Luxology Modo Founders were key people at Newtek working on Lightwave.  They left Newtek and Lightwave development when Lightwave was seeing darker days (still is in most sence).

Here is a page from Luxoology home page about the Founders of Luxology:

http://www.luxology.com/company/founders.aspx

My great art tool is still pen and paper, it renders much quicker for me.

Yeppers.. imagine if they'd stayed with NEWTEK, and Modo was actuslly part of lightwave now!

Quote - "Poser's content library has Poser or Poser Pro as a gateway. Write a means of importing Poser content into LW, and what do you need Poser for?"

That is exactly what Daz is telling everyone with Carrara. LOL.

Could also be one of the reasons why EF is doing the pro thing. I don't know, it's just a guess.

I have not been paying a lot of attention ot Poser Pro since it is not out yet but this feature sounds very much like the import we get with Vue (and with Shade though I don't do that very much) from Poser. You get the ability to import Poser models and animation into Vue. You can enable the ability to pose the models using Poser inside of Vue. Vue warns you that it takes up a lot of memory because you are really running Poser objects. So what is the use of Poser? Everything! It is what you are using to manipulate the objects from Poser.

The 10 node rendering... could be cool if they get the animation tools right. Some of that seems to be coming with the fact that EF now has several of the components that they need in different apps. Consider this:

1. Shade 9 suggests an atmosphere model perhaps via Vue.
2. Shade/Poser seem to be getting closer (along with Vue hopefully) to allow passing scenes across the 3 apps.
3. Vue has a plug in called Ozone that runs in other apps... Poser, seems to be becoming a series of components that run in other apps for Charater Animation as well as an app in itself.

So... If you use Shade/Amapi to do the modeling and Ozone in Poser (someday) to do environments then the 10 node rendering becomes huge!

The way I see Poser Pro is positioning... Shade/Amapi/PoserPro become a series of component that are purchased as needed and added to a base application (Poser).

Also, the comparison sheet is the "Base" version of Poser Pro. There are several Add-On that will be available that will hopefully make the product much more useful.

Content will be the focus more and more. You already know that Poser talk doesn't work with all characters made and certian other features of Poser 7 aren't used by other figures and some new. As Poser makes more features that only include functionality for Poser models within Poser? The end result is herding all users of "poser content" into using only Poser software. That's great for Poser. Not for everybody. Is the software made for the content or the content made for the software? If everyone leans more on this tactic, the content will only work it's best in Poser and the software Poser wants it too work in. Keep that in mind as things go. I like the option always. I think the software should be made to run content and the features of the software should work with all content. Don't fence me in.   

I dunno.. I see it as a way for EF to assure that Poser sticks around. If all poser content was like collada now, and you could use it and pose it in any 3d application out there, would anyone have bought poser 7? Would they have bothered with carerra even?

Odds are, both those applications anmd even Ds would be on thier way out as dinosaurs.

While I really like compatibility, if EF couldn't sell any more copies of poser, where would be the incentive to do things like advance rigging, but try to keep the legacy stuff working?

Since the free DS is probably taking a nice fat chunk of poser "new user" sales, that leaves poser to only really move in one direction.. higher up.

Programs and corporations adjust themselves to stay viable...I'm okay with that.

But let me say this, if Poser is coming out with a PoserPro then by all means they really need to tackle and conquer the setup room in regards to rigging and boning. I can make a fully boned figure with PhiBuild (no errors in Phi) but will watch Poser crash time and time again because I want to adjust a bone start or end point.
Now I am not new to big programs crashing as I am a full time user of 3ds Max. A huge piece of software that is very strong and capable, but...sometimes you will just blink and the "lights are out folks". Now of course my model is 3 bizillion polys and I'm trying to loop an edge that's a mile long, so who can blame the proggie for having a tizzy fit? Not me.
But when all I'm doing in Poser is barely moving a bone, sometimes even just selecting it...and Poser crashes, not once, not twice...but over and over again, that's just wrong. Buggy software that needs fixing.
Please, fix the setup room...or at least redecorate.

It doesn't matter to me if they move toward high end apps. What I'd like is less nitch programing. That would go for everyone supporting poser content. In other words make the functions easier to adapt a variety of content into it comfortably-easy.

There are a lot of directions to go. Interface is one possibility (hmmm), posing is another. I don't want to appear to take sides and I'm not on anybodies side per say accept the user in general. It would be easy to accuse most any software maker of designing functions that are specialty applications for the content specifically designed/made for use in their program alone. One industry standard is a fence too.

You have to make a choice and build for a specific buyer. PPro is a move toward high enders and not the general user or hobbyist market. People who use high end apps can generally model their own content (think about that for a second merchants) and import it into Poser too. There could have been a move toward other feilds of opertunity. The Poser program could have been made to allow plugins rather than seperate it into a whole new feild and making it Poser Pro. If I want to use Poser with Maya for instance, then why do I need the plugin for Lightwave which is just baggage I don't need or want? My idea would have been to keep Poser under one roof so to speak like Lightwave for instance is and just make it expandable in the direction of the user's prefrences and pocket book allowances...and please don't call that modular, it's not modular per say as a plugin base. Looking at this it seems I have to buy a bunch of capability I myself may never use. What if I don't have Maya? It comes with it anyways right? Now I just bought Poser 7 why couldn't the next update have been free but a modification to make it allow plugins for high end apps and other room for more technical stuff? Also keep in mind I just bought Poser 7 a few months ago and if I buy PPro isn't the Poser in it a lot like P7. Nothin' like buying the same thing twice so to speak and when they come out with 8 am I going to have to buy PPro 8 too. It seems like to me it would have been more practical to just make Poser expandable via plugins rather than selling it as a package deal with features the user may never use and pays for anyways. Does that make sense to anyone else? Why buy programing I don't need?

Now if they would have trimed the extra fat off of it, it might have been cheaper.  

if Poser is coming out with a PoserPro then by all means they really need to tackle and conquer the setup room in regards to rigging and boning. Amen to that. The only way the Setup Room could have remained so bad for so long is that the vast majority Poser users have never used it (and that apparently includes the programmers.)

I would not bother to buy Poserpro with the features so close to Poser 7. About the ability to import into Autodesk 3D Studio Max, etc. Hell I can do that now with Digimation's GestureMax.
Why do I need a 500.00 program.