Quote - I love the aquazone fishies! It's popular with the chicks.

Excuse me while I install AquaZone!

Mike

Quote - they apparently thought poser was good enough to buy, assuming this isn't an hoax. the poser market is large enuff now that they wouldn't buy it in order to bury it in favour of a competing product, ala microsoft. it also explains the delay in the release of version 8. I'm optimistic, as new owners of poser have always got new coders to fix the stuff that wasn't properly implemented in the previous version.

would Aquazone alone have been worth the purchase? or, as eF did, the placement in Japanese markets?

As I see it, the software on my PC isn't going anywhere, whoever owns Poser. As long as someone is prepared to pay the dev team every month, Poser will continue. I've never heard of Smith Micro, but I'd never heard of Curious Labs or e-Frontier either!

Just my 2 (Euro) cents!

Mike

(Juan Manuel, the fish aren't working! How long do I have to wait?)

I don't have any problems with this at all.  It might even turn out to be a Good Thing for Poser.  And yes -- somebody at Smith Micro saw Poser as a worthy investment.  So I don't think that they bought it with the intention of scrapping it.

I'll adopt my typical "wait and see" posture for this one......with optimistic expectations......although I have to admit that "waiting and seeing" is something that we've had to do a lot of lately.

Thanks for letting us know, Steve.  It's greatly appreciated.

Sold for six million dolloars. That would buy you 12 homes in California.

this kinda reminds me of the Amiga debacle a few years ago.  The Amiga was the first seriously affordable graphics capable computer (for those who didn't know).  When Commodore went under, the Amiga name was bandied about like a cheap love doll, until Gateway bought the rights and copyrights to the whole line.  Gateway announced things like the (much) needed upgrades, and how they respected the Amiga community (like we've never heard that before) and how the people assigned to the new line of Amiga computers and products would do everything in their power to listen to the community and develope the product fort he actual users.
Then, one day, without warning Gateway said... "Nope, changed our minds.... no Amiga for the masses."  (rumour has it that MS had threatened to not issue OS Licenses to Gateway if they continued their pursuit of alternative systems... but that's jus a rumour).... 
but that's just me, not really pessimistic but still wary.

Quote - I think I'd be happier if Corel had bought it, at least then there'd be a chance of someone who might actually want to develop it getting their hands on it (Daz3d) at some point in the future.

Sortakinda. Corel has to play with it first, release a couple of crap versions, hose-up the codebase big-time, orphan it, let it languish for a couple of years in limbo (see also Canoma) until they make no more dough off ot it.... then maybe they'll sell it off to somebody.

Judging by what I've seen of Corel, the reasons why are simple: They usually buy the thing, make a big splash with a new version (maybe two), get discouraged that they don't make a zillion bucks off of it, then abandon the thing. Corel Linux was actually a decent Linux distro - then they realized that they actually have to put some work into it just to keep up, and as a result the thing died a quiet death.  Bryce went the same way, until DAZ rescued it.

Corel's orphan graveyard is freakin' HUGE, folks. As much as I deride Poser at times, I'd really hate to see it end up in there.

As per Linux versions? I thought about it for a bit. D|S and Poser have a chance to expand their market by a hell of a lot in that arena (D|S even moreso, since they can get the app distributed freely by way of Ubuntu w/ no cost to them aside from porting and maintenance).

/P

Another take over and to be honest I could care less. Poser was heading for a direction that didn't even remotely interest me at all and now it sounds like they've got the funding needed to play with the big boys. All I can say is good luck and I really hope for all the hobby users who are still interested in Poser after Poser 7's release that this company does care about you. I have serious doubts about that though.....

If this is for the best interest of Poser, I don't know. Generally seen too many take-overs don't do an application much good.

As for taking over a develoment team, we've seen that with Carrara, all this team does now is dance to DAZ's tunes and the originality and power of Carrara died with Carrara 5.

Whatever Smith Micro management say will happen, that will happen, that can be for good or for worse, who knows. For them, it may just be another milkcow as Bryce was to Corel, milk it well and then let the cow die and sell it's remains to someone else.

I know understand why a number of key people at EF left the company a while ago......

Peng if Daz brought out a fully working Linux version I'd switch in a second, Poser is about the only thing that keeps me using Windows these days.

Quote - > Quote - The good news is it was not bought out by Corel. :biggrin:

 

Or Microsoft. :lol:

LOL just think... we all would be experts at rendering Blue Screens of Death

Being bought out by Smith Micro is as expected as E-Frontier being bought out by Nabisco!  Welcome to corporate America.  Where the big fish eat the little fish.  Your company will be assimilated. Resistance is useless. Your technological and business diversity will be added to our own. You will be made to service us.

The business Borgs have been at it again. >sigh<  There is no stabillity in the modern business models now, so do NOT get upset with it.. We will all have to wait and see what happens.

Being of pessimistic inclinations, I would worry about a company that valued Poser about as much as a flavor of potato chips. I wonder why Poser is such a hot potato.

Let's not be naive here: The main reason this company is interested in Poser is to use the technology to make customizable animated avatars for people to use on cell phone networks when playing back voice mails and such.

What that means for the future development of Poser as an artistic rendering tool is unknown. It might turn out OK, it might not. But the situation is tenuous at best.

Whenever I see the word "exciting" in a press release from a stock-type
company, I get nervous.  

Stock companies don't get excited about dull old junk like products 
and employees.  They leave that nasty stuff to privately held companies.   

What gets stock companies aroused is the chance to short derivative 
options indexing outyear futures of the odds on the second horse in
the afternoon races on Tuesdays at Pimlico.

The problem with gloom & doom is that it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I say give 'em a chance to show what they can do first.  It's unwise to start reading the eulogy aloud (accompained by background funeral dirge music) before anything's actually happened.  It could be that Poser will benefit from this -- at this point: a positive assumption is as valid as any other type of assumption.  We won't know for certain until we can actually observe the results in action.  Until that occurs: the guesses about what's going to happen or about what might happen are just that - guesses.  Until then, we can only deal with things as we find them today.  Tomorrow will have to take care of itself.

You know what's really got me wondering and bothered........?  I'm not sure whether my new copy of Poser Pro will say "E-frontier America" or "Smith Micro" on the splash screen.  Now THAT'S something to worry about..........

...Yah!...Like Ockham said...MAXIMIZE PROFITS!...Milk Out The Telecom Marketing Angles!...Then TOSS IT!...HEH!...Have you seen the Board of Directors at Smith Micro?...

...Let's all sign a petition asking Smith Micro to give Poser to PhilC after they are through munching and suckling out whatever juices are left... Then PhilC will Re-Vitalize it and do
more for Poser than anyone since Fractal Design...

Hmmm... Is that why Wardrobe Wizard doesn't require Poser in it's next release....?

Quote -
I know understand why a number of key people at EF left the company a while ago......

Simply not true. 

Steve

Six million dollars?

**A program barely alive. We can rebuild the software. We have the technology. We can make Poser better than it was. Better...stronger...faster.

**-- Smith Micro

add uplifting 70's TV intro music here -- togther with an image of James and/or Simon running at 60mph.  Wearing a workout sweatsuit with leg stripes.

Quote - Six million dollars?

**A program barely alive. We can rebuild the software. We have the technology. We can make Poser better than it was. Better...stronger...faster.

**-- Smith Micro

add uplifting 70's TV intro music here -- togther with an image of James and/or Simon running at 60mph.  Wearing a workout sweatsuit with leg stripes.

So... last Poser version (7) needed 2 SR packs to work properly

Now... no Poser until SR 4 ????

Aauugghh...I don't even have P7 yet!  I'm now officialy terrified of the process.  When is something going to become clearer than, say, mud?

Quote - "
I know understand why a number of key people at EF left the company a while ago......"

* 

Simply not true. 

Steve

*Not true? I don't expect you to confirm it as true, you're not at liberty to do so. 

P8 will be even more opaque than P7 AFAIK. it will definitely be overkill for mobile apps IMVHO.

Quote - Quote - "
I know understand why a number of key people at EF left the company a while ago......"

* 

Simply not true. 

Steve

*Not true? I don't expect you to confirm it as true, you're not at liberty to do so. 

:rolleyes:

I know.. if the VP of marketing at E-Frontier USA is not at liberty to confirm / deny rumours of staffing at his own company... who is?????

In other words, Steve: you are......telling untruths.  Anything that's said that's positive is obviously untrue.  Because.....well just because it is.

Steve might simply be under a NDA for now, and besides that, I've never heard anywhere of "key people leaving".

Regardless, whatever is going on internally really doesn't affect the bottom line much. Daz can be a revolving door sometimes, yet they are doing just fine.

Steve might simply be under a NDA for now, and besides that, I've never heard anywhere of "key people leaving".

EF never announced it, but some did for a fact.

It's just not true. 

Also CP will be part of the deal and will continue on. Also I'll post more on the blog and try to answer questions in one spot instead of multiple forums and threads. I've been a bit busy this morning. 

Cheers

Smith Micro has a distinct Business model that is geared to making money for it's stockholders... They sell telecom solutions and cheap "EZ - to - USE" consumer software...
...I don't think Poser 7 Pro fits in very well... (You can KID yourself all you want- but that's NOT how US Profit-Motivated Boards of Directors think, ...heh!)

...In a year or so I think DAZ will be offered the marketing rights by Smith Micro to the "Poser" name and any assorted characters/models they might want -(not likely)- for just Pennies on the Dollar...

That's not only the case in the US... happens all around the world. Businesses taking over other businessed to make a quick buck to invest into something else or/and make the stock holders happy. 

It's a shame it had to come to this.

Quote - Smith Micro has a distinct Business model that is geared to making money for it's stockholders...

Um, all publically held company have to do that, it's business. They either shopw profit, ot they cease to exist. It's not some big bad thang.

What does baffle me are people whom get overly emotionally attached to a commercial product, then get all upset about rather normal things that happen in business.

Guys -- the doom & gloom stuff is frankly ridiculous.  We won't know until we know.  And we don't know now.  The only thing that we DO know for certain at this point is what Steve has so kindly shared with us.  Beyond that -- it's all crystal-ball-gazing garbage.

I like imaginative fantasy as well as the next fantasy fan -- but at least most of those flighty fans understand that their fantasies don't represent set-in-stone, assured patterns of what's actually going to happen in the real world.  I could make up -- out of my own imagination -- all sorts of black scenarios, too......so what?  It would still be fantasy, and it would still derive from nothing other than my own paranoid delusions & personal cynicism.

We'll know when we know: not before.

It would be nice if just once -- an announcement about something could be made in the Poserverse without the totally predictable negative predictions of IMPENDING DOOM FOR US ALL!!!!!!!! (we're all gonna die!) following.

But then again: it's become a tradition.  I'd probably wonder where I was without it.

It's business, pure and simple. Every company is up for buy, if the price is right.

The good news (buried in all of the naysaying) is that Poser 7 will have another SR before too long, to saddle along the new PoserPro edition. 

I was hoping for some stability at long last with the buyouts, but as long as Poser keeps getting better, more features and constant fixes to smooth out operations, I could care less who's name is on the splash screen.

But it is time to save my pennies for either C6 or Vue 6. Never hurts to have a back-up that uses the same content ;)

-- Jeff

Conniekat, there's nothing wrong with showing a profit.  What is wrong,
or distorted anyway, is when a company operates purely to run up the
share price.  That's the diff btn proprietors and shareholders, at least
in modern times.   It wasn't always so distinct ... before 1980 or so, 
shareholders were more inclined to keep a stock and receive dividends,
which put the focus on the profit generated by actually producing
things.

When the employees, managers, and customers all share an emotional
attachment to the product  ... cars, insurance or software ...  the system 
works to the benefit of all.  When the original car guys or software nerds 
sell out to the pure bean-counters, the system may generate more wild 
swings in share prices, which then benefits the day-traders.  But it's no longer 
as much good for the employees, managers and customers.

This just in... Nabisco buys Exxon. 

Quote - Peng if Daz brought out a fully working Linux version I'd switch in a second, Poser is about the only thing that keeps me using Windows these days.

I'd switch too... back to a PC.

As it stands right now, to get Leopard going on a bog-standard PC, I'm gonna have to buy a Core Duo rig; don't want to spend that kind of scratch just yet when my dual G5 does just fine.

A full-on Linux version would give me the trifecta for what I need to get anything done: AC3D, GIMP, and {Poser or D|S, and by now I don't really care which, depending on performance}.

/P

Come to think of it, I thought selling all assets (except the Japanes ones which EF doesn't own) would have been worth a little bit more.

They only paid six million for the whole deal..... that includes Poser, Anime Studio, Manga Studio, (perhaps even some minor apps) and even ContentParadise is included in the deal. 

*"The Poser’s 3D figure design and animation program has a strong following of more than 500,000 users and is growing. Manga Studio, originally created in Japan as ComicStudio, has become the number one selling Manga software worldwide. Anime Studio is a complete animation solution for creating 2D movies, cartoons, anime or cut-out animations and is ideal for animators of any caliber. "

That's straight from Smith Micro's website...... seems like they're using big words for something they've paid little for.

Quote - > Quote - *Quote - "

*Simply not true. 

Steve

*Not true? I don't expect you to confirm it as true, you're not at liberty to do so. 

 

:rolleyes:

You never know - them NDA's are a bitch. Now whether it's true or not, I couldn't care less.  shrug

Meanwhile, I intend to sit back and eyeball it with partial interest.

Quote - This just in... Nabisco buys Exxon.

Or maybe more like AT&T buying Michael's art supplies.

aeilkema - my thoughts exactly.  Skirting the references to an old 70's show, that is beans for all of that, including the developers etc.  500,000 users x $200.00 = $100 Million dollars in sales over the past ten years or so.  That's roughly $5-$10 million/year.  And that's just Poser.  Sniff... Sniff... Something shmells fishy, matey.

Quote -
They only paid six million for the whole deal..... that includes Poser, Anime Studio, Manga Studio, (perhaps even some minor apps) and even ContentParadise is included in the deal. 

To which I reply... so? Three big ones in cash per year would fund a good-sized development team -and- the machinery required to keep 'em happy. Anime Studio and Manga Studio are pretty tiny compared to Poser, so no biggie there. CP prolly pulls in ab't $1m-$2m per year after overhead... and I'm being really liberal about the figures.

To be honest, Methinks Smith Micro spent quite a wad for what they got. Not denigrating Poser or such, but seriously - it ain't that pricey.

/P

Quote - ...seems like they're using big words for something they've paid little for.

No particular comment on the deal itself, but that's kind of the point of the press release - look at all their press releases, Smith Micro is in "grow like crazy" mode. Anything in there is intended to attract stock purchases, e.g. "ranged #27 on the Deloitte Fast Wireless 50".

Quote - > Quote - This just in... Nabisco buys Exxon.

Or maybe more like AT&T buying Michael's art supplies.

Such arrangements aren't unusual at all in today's corporate world.  In fact it's becoming the accepted norm.

Companies like Mitsubishi manufacture everything from TV sets to cars to ocean-going cargo ships.  American & European corporations are doing the same thing nowadays.  It partially stems from the philosophy of not putting all of your eggs in one basket.  There have been too many companies that did that -- and that didn't survive when the markets for their specialty products fell through (for whatever reasons).  So diversification is a long-term corporate survival strategy, as well as a profit-making strategy.

Private investors are wise to do the same thing.

Quote - 500,000 users x $200.00 = $100 Million dollars in sales over the past ten years or so.  That's roughly $5-$10 million/year.  And that's just Poser.

Not that easy to calculate, IMHO. Here's why:

• Wanna lay odds on how many users got their copy of Poser from the 'BitTorrent/eMule Superstore'?

• I'm willing to further bet that 500k isn't specifically the # of license keys sold, but --in their own words-- "users" (and sounds a lot like how many folks that Rendo and CP counts among their respective memberships sorta-semi-combined).

• Also, you shouldn't forget how many got Poser as a legit freebie - out of 3D World Magazine, as a big ferinstance. Poser Artist went for $99 for at least, what - four years now?

• Oh, and let us not forget bulk licensing. Not enough to seriously affect the numbers overall (if they're truly sales), but enough to take notice of.

--

Now as a counterbalance (of sorts) we do have... well, all of us schmucks in here who bought more than one version.

Given all of that, I'm less inclined to think that Smith Micro took EF to the cleaners or anything...

/P

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - *Quote - "

*Simply not true. 

Steve

*Not true? I don't expect you to confirm it as true, you're not at liberty to do so. 

 

:rolleyes:

You never know - them NDA's are a bitch. Now whether it's true or not, I couldn't care less.  shrug

Meanwhile, I intend to sit back and eyeball it with partial interest.

I take Steve (VP and all) at his word.  But when it comes right down to it -- the subject doesn't particularly concern me, either.

My post had more to do with certain flavors being forgone conclusions in certain cases.

Something shmells fishy, matey.

If you think something's fishy then read this:

*e frontier had total revenues in excess of $7 million for their fiscal year ending March 2007.

*That's total revenue spread over Poser 6/7 sales, Poser Artist, Motion Artist, Manga Studio, Shade, Anime Studio and ContentParadise. That only leads to one conclusion, E-Frontier wasn't doing to well at all.

Let's make a quick comparisment..... DAZ Studio 1.8 has over 140.000 downloads. If E-F's revenue would have been from Poser 7 only, they would have sold between 28000 and 50000 copies (new & upgrades). which isn't the case, since Anime Studio and Manga Studio have been selling quite well and I'm sure they've sold a good number of Poser Artist copies also. not even taking in acount the revenue made through CP.

This leads me to one conclusion, Poser has been selling a lot less then we all were thinking, I wouldn't be suprised if Poser 7 has sold far less then 6.000 copies. In other words, Poser is doing pretty bad and it's probably not even worth releasing Poser 8 for the hobby market at all. There's no revenue in it anymore.

At any rate, compared to D/S, Poser has been selling peanuts and I really think regular Poser has seen it's best days and perhaps it's last days.

The sudden coming of Poser 7 Pro to all of this and the desire to move away from the hobby market into the mainstream of 3D makes sense now also. Poser as is, isn't going to survive, E-F lost the battle with DAZ and E-F now sold out for a meager amount to still get the best out of it. I don't think this move was done in order for the "hobby" version of Poser to survive, but to make sure Poser Pro can be released and Manga Studio and Anime Studio will survive.

I strongly believe that in a few years there will be no more Poser. E-F lost the battle for the hobby/amateur/semi-pro user and mainstream 3D/Proffesionals aren't waiting for Poser Pro, they've got their own (far beyong poser) tools.

I'm glad we finally get some insight into what kind of revenue E-F makes, it sheds a lot of light on how Poser is doing, a lot of people had a feeling that Poser was doing pretty bad and the revenue confirms this. It's a shame it had to come to this, but E-F failed to utilize Poser's power and was defeated by a application that people laughed at first. E-F should have adjusted it's prizes and listened to it's user more in order to survive. By not reacting in proper manner to DAZ's moves, E-F may well have sealed Poser's doom.

Adding to all of this that Smith Micro seems to buy "old & outdated" stuff and sell it at cheap prices, I think the future for Poser doesn't look so bright at all.

Quote - My post had more to do with certain flavors being forgone conclusions in certain cases.

I love quoting myself........

Quote - Quote - "
I know understand why a number of key people at EF left the company a while ago......"

  *
Simply not true. 

Steve

*Not true? I don't expect you to confirm it as true, you're not at liberty to do so. 

Since you seem to be so knowledgeable, how about naming a source for your claim instead of continuing your insinuations?

Perhaps you could even tell us the names of these "key people" who have left E-Frontier?

shrug

In the right book, it's always bad news -- according to certain very wise forum experts on the subject -- DAZ has been sliding downhill for a long time now.  And so we are also being 'informed' by these forumite experts that Poser is headed in the same direction as DAZ.

If we are going to posit that the forumite expert predictions concerning Poser will turn out to be as accurate as the predictions concerning DAZ have been: then I'd strongly suggest purchasing stock in Smith Micro (assuming that it's a publicly traded company -- I haven't checked).

Listen carefully to whatever the doom prognosticators have to say: and then do the opposite of whatever they've said.  Chances are that you'll come out a winner. :biggrin:

They didn't announce their leaving publicly, but on a personal level only. I can ony respect that, so I'm not going to give names. If you knew those who resigned a while back you've gotten a personal call or email from them.

If you're a regular visitor here (which you don't seem to be) you will have noticed how some people from EF who used to be quite active suddenly dissappeared...... if you're a long time CP forums visitor you may have well noticed the dissapearance of some active staff members at wll.

Btw... I don't make my conclusion from a forum, but from their emails.