To that site staff member who makes the final decision on forum posting policies,

For a long time a certain inconsistency in the forum policies has seemed, well "inconsistent".  I'm not angry or upset; just struck dumb as to why certain policies exist for some and not for all.  This is the crux of what I don't understand...

*Why should the forum rules be different for creators and non-creators?

A creator of a freebie has to post in the free stuff forum first, yet....
     ....those griping about freebies can post or announce them as often as they like.

A creator of a commercial item can't post an announcement in the forum, yet...
     ...anyone else can or those wanting to tear it apart can rip at it for pages as often as they like.

A promotion can't be posted for commercial sites by those affiliated, yet....
     ...anyone else can start the notorious "New at XYZ store!!" threads as often as they like.

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion Poser and is non commercial why is the discussion of sale content allowed at all?

     ...why are commercial price bashing threads allowed?
     ...why are threads allowed that bash merchants and stores?
     ...why are commercial themed lecture threads allowed telling merchants how to run their businesses?
     ....and then why are those merchants, who are also members, allowed to be insulted, flamed, seemingly exempt from protections of the forum TOS?

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion of Poser, and merchants are not to post about sale items, why is anyone but the creator allowed to?

***Any if freebie creator have to post announcements in the Freebie Forum, why are non-creators exempt?

Why is there a separate member rule set for content creators? Is there really any difference who the topic comes from?***

free stuff,non-commercial only.just bloody well say so up front.
OT: Quad core Dell computer for $559
FREE Daz3D - 2 Freebies (until April 25 and 30, 2008)
Anyone know what happened to Lisbeth's store?
Spend 1000's of $$$ and get NO Support!?
I looking for..a lost product
Vittorio 4.2 has been released
Any comments on this new V4 character...?
Alice 2.0
FREE Daz3D - Mediterranean Patio (until April 15, 2008)
New must have from Stonemason is OUT!

*I have no issue with the authors of these above threads or their content specifically; simply using them as recent examples of what content creators can't do, yet anyone else can; seemingly a biased ruleset.

Been meaning to ask for an explanation for some time now. If it is an issue of people being annoyed by commercial posts? Are these annopying to those same people? If people say content creators spam, that Alice thread isn't spam? It was posted all over poserdom.

I just don't undertsand the difference. If some don't want commercial threads, why do we have commercial lecture threads, I won't buy from this xyz threads, now on sale threads, new at xyz threads, my new commercial WIP threads?

Kinda curious why the same reasons you restricted creators from posting such topics doesn't apply to others?

Let me know if you don't mind or whaen you have a moment.

Thanks and regards,
Anton

I dunno...I'm guilty of the sin of announcing a freebie myself, but sometimes I don't check my email. I will say in my defense that I've got all your freebies I can get my hands on...;)

Considering the large amount of content needed to even make a Poser render, you'd think it was inevitable the subject would come up. I actually tried making a Poser pic with only 'native' Poser content once (try it sometime, folks..;), and no one really looked at it (but then, it could be it was me...;)

ya got me...maybe the mods will have an answer...

Geez!  There are enough rules here already and you're pushing for more?! Be thankful that we can still post about things at all.

I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content.

Well, just to add my opinion. The new rules about posting were supposed to help Renderosity, right?

Well, since those rules have been put in place, I know of seven merchants, who, because they could no longer advertise their products, that have decided to close up their shops and become DAZ merchants, or more specifically, join Artzone and make their stuff exclusive there.

I suppose that helps Renderosity in some way. But I am not clever enough to figure out in what way, lol.

Quote - I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content.

Exactly. But I really would like it explained.

Thank you, Anton.  Don't look for answers that make any sense, but thanks for asking anyway.

John

Anton, dude... I can sum it all up in one symbol: $

Same reason why the RMP sells all kinds of things that require you to visit an adult store to purchase a real-life facsimile of, while the galleries would easily make a PG rating by the MPAA.

Kind Reg'ds,

/P

Eh, I doubt that there will be an official explanation.

I think the rules as they stand now and what is and isn't allowed is a result of idiosychracies of the rules. As soon as one rule is established someone finds a loophole or a way to push the envelope. Sometimes people scream about it enough for rendo staff to plug up the resulting loophole, sometimes they don't.

Merchant can't post where people come and hang out, but their fans (or those whom criticize) can.  Not letting people rip into products or freebies and offer negative opinions would be... what was it we were arguing about just the other day - censorship.

I've been reading DAZ commons little more often since the artzone/Poser Pro's merger, and I actually like commercial product announcements. They have them labeled as commercial, so if someone doesn't want to look, the can skip them.  It seems to be a good way for vendors to get feedback from customers. Around here, people seldom go to other forums... there's just waaay too many of them to keep track of.

I suppose at some point in time people were worriaed about the poser forum turning into a commercial. I dunno. Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Wasn't it the other thread, the one that just got locked, that someone was mentioning, if only the rules were perfect.... Ha!

Quote - Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. I don't think that is the intended role of the forums, unless otherwise labeled. If it is, that is disturbing on many levels. Least of all it means it is a vehical for abuse masked as "feedback".

"Site policy" for creators is not "censorship" for non creators when in regards to the same types of topic threads. It is either one or the other for all. Members are members IMO.

"Consumer Feedback" in our forums is commercial and is a customer/user initiative. The Poser forum isn't a customer "feedback/service" forum. Is it? At least I hope I am not mistaken.

Quote -   > Quote - Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. I don't think that is the intended role of the forums, unless otherwise labeled. If it is, that is disturbing on many levels. Least of all it means it is a vehical for abuse masked as "feedback".

I was thinking in context of commercial posts being allowed in DAZ commons, and should they be allowed on Rendo. They wouldn't bother me one bit if they were allowed here. I'm thinking about that in context of wondering of the rule of no commercial posts in this forum didn't start because of arguments or a group of people being bothered with them way back, before my time on the forums. If it is to be judged by the volume of posts that are edging in more commercial (not a huge amount, but a few), there seems to be interest.

Right now, I'm not sure what exactly the rules are when it comes to the items you brought up.

Quote - "Site policy" for creators is not "censorship" for non creators when in regards to the same types of topic threads. It is either one or the other for all. Members are members IMO.

Yea, I wouldn't think so either, but I can just see a group of members getting up in arms screaming censorship if you didn't let them complain about a product or a freebie.

Quote - "Consumer Feedback" in our forums is commercial and is a customer/user initiative. The Poser forum isn't a customer "feedback/service" forum. Is it? At least I hope I am not mistaken.

I'm not sure what the original intent of poser forum here is, or was. With Poser being so content oriented, it's hard to discuss a whole lot of things poser without introducing the commercial  element. Again, comparing to DAZ Commons forum, I kind of like the presence of vendors talking about their products there on occasion. Wouldn't bother me if the rules were changed so customer/vendor product specific interaction was more accepted here.

You are talking about how things are, I was talking about how things could be.

Cool. Thanks.

Hopefully someone will explain the reason for the differing policies.
 

Good questions Anton. I'm sure there are many of us that wonder the same thing. But, do you really think your going to get an honest answer? The Mods only do what they are told to do and say and follow the guidelines of the PTB and you know the PTB are not going to answer you. ( Not meant as a dig at any Mod, some people like working with thier hands tied behind their back.  LOL)

I don't mind the odd freebie alert, though that last one was a bit lame with the need to jump through hoops to get. Now if it had contained a warning about the hassle ,it would have been a far more informative post and benifit the forum. (Don't take that the wrong way Acadia) The moving / censorship of freebie posts by the creator in this forum was a bad move.

The commercial threads is a fine line.

I don't find anything wrong with users discussing commercial products, good or bad. How else can the community know if the products or merchants are any good or problematic. But we don't need the spam. A fine line. With the new merchant rules that line got wider and easier to moderate but at a big loss to the community. So the only way to know what's going on with these other merchants is by user posts. Hmmm, back to that fine line now. LOL.

Conniekat8, your a merchant now so I can see why you would think that tagged commercial threads would be a good thing. But as you stated, you were not around when it was allowed. It was a nightmare to get any poser related questions answered. You use the Daz commons as an example and so will I.

The Daz common forum is a commercial spam and glorifed popularity posting. That and the flame war floor room for DS vs Poser and Daz forum vs Art Zone. Don't bother posting a real question there unless your one of the popular and that's not a guarentee, because it gets burried so fast from the other 3 types of post mentioned.

This forum was getting so bad from all this spam that even when asking for help with something, merchants would jump in and spam you with how you wouldn't be having these problems if you bought thier products. It was a nighmare. Any question posts were getting burried and lost so fast that it was a friggin lottery trying to get help.

Merchants were going as far as starting infomercials. Getting some friend to start a thread and then do that stupid infomercial routine.

No, that, "no commercial post," rule change was one of the best things that happened for this forum and we don't need it back. Yes I think the PTB went overboard with the last bit of rules, so we need a few loopholes to balance the scales a bit. Over all, I think the forum is fine.

Le't not prod that sleeping dog to much because you know ,from past experience, that it goes way overboard when wakened.. 

This is not an official answer, but it is an answer from my point of view.  I will point the Admin to this thread, though.

There is a difference between a content creator (regardless if it's a free item or a for pay item) posting in the forum and a member stating anything (whether it's a simple post, a question, a complaint, or a "hey, look at this cool thing") about a product.  The simple fact of the matter is, people are going to ask questions about products and freebies.  People are going to complain about products and freebies.  People are going to marvel at them.  If we did away with all commercial posting, technically we wouldn't even be able to discuss Poser, because it's a for-pay item sold by a different company (regardless of whether or not we have it in our MP).

I remember, years ago, when the Developer's forum was more populated.  You could go in there and see really good discussions on modelling, rigging, and sometimes even animation if you timed yourself right.  It's rare that anyone discusses the creation of a product (for sale or not) here anymore, and I'm sure there are several different reasons, one being that if it's going to be for sale, ya can't post about it here.  It's not fair for one vendor to have a 20 page sneaky advert while others can't even post "Hey, look, I have this here!!" 

In essence, it just wouldn't make logical sense to penalize members for asking questions, ragging on product (within reason.  Not a fan of the whole Name 'n Shame idea...if it doesn't work, that's one thing, but if you just want to rag on a merchant, take it elsewhere.) or even announcing that they think something is cool. 

sigh  However, I'll point Admin to this thread.

Jeni

I understand your reasoning, Jen, but I can also see Anton's point. It is a bit of a double standard, and it certainly wouldnt stop the more unscrupulous merchant from saying to one of his friends, "Hey, do me a favour -- post something about my new product available at X!" and so friend does, under the guise of "Wow, check this out!" -- and before long you still have a sneaky advert that came, circuitously, from the creator.

I dont like the commercial threads either, but to stop them like this seems more arbitrary than anything else.

Just my 0.02 -- which is available now for $19.95 at... oh wait. Sorry about that.

:-)

Quote - Cool. Thanks.

Hopefully someone will explain the reason for the differing policies.
 

Don't hold your breath Anton!

Quote - I understand your reasoning, Jen, but I can also see Anton's point. It is a bit of a double standard, and it certainly wouldnt stop the more unscrupulous merchant from saying to one of his friends, "Hey, do me a favour -- post something about my new product available at X!" and so friend does, under the guise of "Wow, check this out!" -- and before long you still have a sneaky advert that came, circuitously, from the creator.

I dont like the commercial threads either, but to stop them like this seems more arbitrary than anything else.

Just my 0.02 -- which is available now for $19.95 at... oh wait. Sorry about that.

:-)

No, it doesn't keep unscrupulous merchants from getting their buddies to ask questions and or make "this is cool!!" posts about their products.  We keep our eyes out for those posts, and they tend to follow a pattern.  I'm pretty sure that some folk think we're complete morons and that they're getting away with it.  Heck, that goes for any TOS compliance/violation. 

However, again, I'm going to ask, where do we draw the line?  If a member comes in and asks "Hey, where can I get a cool-looking pirate ship for Poser?", should we not allow members to post links to locate said item?  Or, if a merchant has a python script and/or other tool in the MP, and has questions, sure, the most logical place to ask would be to email the merchant...but, logic tells me that if the product has been there a while, there are a few people that may have it and may actually have a few hints and tips that the merchant themselves may not even have thought of.  Heck, there are regular models that some people have a hard time with.

For example, Aery Soul doesn't support DAZ|Studio...their prerogative.  There are people in the community that can fix broken models and their morphs.  However, a new user might not know this.  So, noticing that their Litsure hair (for instance) is used in a render by someone using D|S, they ask in the D|S forum how it works.  After a few people hem and haw at how they really should know how to rig for D|S (really?   Every merchant should know every possible program an end-user might use the figure in??), someone answers with the fix, which, btw, is:

"Open the .pz2 files found in the "Liltsure-Mrphs" folder. Do a search for the phrase "valueParm" and change all instances of it to "targetGeom." "

Now, if the original questioner wouldn't have been able to mention and/or link to the product in question, they'd still be confused as hell, and probably disenchanted with the whole thing.

Anyway, like I said, I've brought it to Admin attention, but I'm not going to promise that there will be stricter changes.  I for one hope not.  I personally don't like the latest change, however, I understand the need for it.  There's a difference between being open and hospitable and being taken advantage of.

Slightly longer answer... policies get patched onto policies which in turn are latched onto other policies, in the vain hope that most folks are pleased, yet previous stuff isn't disturbed.

In programming, we call it Cruft - basically crap that you can't get rid of lest people complain (or something breaks), yet people are complaining about it now (and there's breakage).

The only real cure is to run through and re-work 'em all... but I don't think that'll happen until it starts affecting the bottom line. It also tends to disrupt.

/P

Folks will complain regardless.  We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

Quote - Folks will complain regardless.  We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

LOL. So true.

I want mine in Euros

Quote - Every merchant should know every possible program an end-user might use the figure in??)

Err, there's only two apps to deal with, not forty jillion.

To answer your question? They should if they care ab't maximizing their sales, but they're under no actual obligation to. I would personally answer someone asking with "well, if the seller doesn't support your environment, that's his/her fault... next time buy from someone who does". Do that often enough, and market pressure takes over.

Quote - Anyway, like I said, I've brought it to Admin attention, but I'm not going to promise that there will be stricter changes.  I for one hope not.

Me Neither - again, like in programming, you only get more Cruft.

Management isn't exactly known for saying "okay - let's spend a lot of time on this so we do it right" unless it becomes glaringly obvious that there's no other choice.

/P

*Quote - "I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content."

*I think a big part of the inconsistencies is a result of the variableness over the last years when the  mods and admins cracked down hard, then lightened up a bit, back and forth.

If you hold a handfull of sand to tightly you end up with a empty hand.

Untill the forum/site rules are in benifit of members and not designed as forum/site/MP  behavior controls this oscollation will continue. Spike started this pattern of conservative leanings that years latter wont be stabalized untill a new cycle of admins (not drawen from the existing stock) takes over the site. This is NOT an attact of the existing admins and mods. It's just that THEY were selected under the 'Spike' doctrine.

(geo shrugs shoulders)

g  Pengy, welcome to the Poser market.  It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use.  ;)  Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Quote - g  Pengy, welcome to the Poser market.  It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use.  ;)  Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Trust me - if I could capture some of that spirit and release it into the markets I work in? Holy shit - I'd be able to BUY Bill Gates as my personal bitch/slave.

IMHO, there's only so many suckers about. As the market expands (it is), the merchies are going to be in for a bit of a shock when the majority of new buyers actually start acting like real customers, and not just forum buddies... it'll be an interesting show, to say the least.

/P

Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far  seems very civil

I am a merchant and tend to agree with jenk About the impracticality
of a broad based restriction on mentioning commercial product by every one
Praising or disparaging.

if i promote My product in the general Forum there is no doubt
personally I have a potential financial gain from doing so.

but it is a tough grey area when one's product is mentioned by others
in whatever context.

Quote - Slightly longer answer... policies get patched onto policies which in turn are latched onto other policies, in the vain hope that most folks are pleased, yet previous stuff isn't disturbed.

In programming, we call it Cruft - basically crap that you can't get rid of lest people complain (or something breaks), yet people are complaining about it now (and there's breakage).

The only real cure is to run through and re-work 'em all... but I don't think that'll happen until it starts affecting the bottom line. It also tends to disrupt.

That's what I was thinking, the idiosynchratic rules as they stand now are very likely the result of their creation process.

Comparing DAZ Commons and Rendo's Poser forum... They're little different from one another, and I like them both.

I really do wish there were fewer foums here on Rendo.  I tend to neglect the less busy ones, even if I have interest in the topics.

Quote - Folks will complain regardless.  We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

Only 20 Dollars... so little, you big bad money making commercial entity ........    

                                                                                               [ducking and running------------------>]  j/k

Quote - g  Pengy, welcome to the Poser market.  It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use.  ;)  Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Who, me?   That doesn't happen to me! 

well, not today....

......yet...  :blink:

[proud owner of 5 copies of Poser 6 just because it was on sale for 2.99 - just in case..... case of what?]

Quote - Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far  seems very civil.

To be quite honest, most of the threads lately that would have, in recent years, been big hot-button threads have been delightfully civil.  Personally, I appreciate it.  Especially now that I have to actually walk away from the computer and go into the Big Scary Outside World™ :lol:  Also known as W*rk :lol:

I'm not sure this would necessarily be a "hotbutton" issue, except to the merchants. I know the restricting of postings in the "Marketplace Showcase" to rendo-only products miffed a few people, but I can't say I didn't expect it.

Perhaps a review and consolidation of the current rules would benefit everyone, not just merchants or consumers.

Quote - Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far  seems very civil

I am a merchant and tend to agree with jenk About the impracticality
of a broad based restriction on mentioning commercial product by every one
Praising or disparaging.

if i promote My product in the general Forum there is no doubt
personally I have a potential financial gain from doing so.

but it is a tough grey area when one's product is mentioned by others
in whatever context.

We agree.  Personally, I wouldn't like the idea of forbidding anyone from talking about Poser-related commercial products in the forum.  IMO, that goes to the very core of what this forum is for, at least in part.  After all, you see the occasional total-newbie who asks where they can get V4.

I'm not speaking officially, either -- this is just my personal opinion.  But I believe that the mods/admins here have achieved a near-balance now........a near-balance between an "infomercial forum": and a total ban on discussing anything that's sold anywhere.  At least the admins have come about as close as is humanly possible when walking the tightrope stretched between the conflicting demands which come from different camps of users & members -- different camps who don't agree among themselves about what should or what shouldn't be allowed under forum posting policy.

BTW - Poser itself is a commercial product.  It would be a tough sell to tell people that Poser couldn't be discussed in the Poser forum for that reason.    And Poser-related products.......such as -- say -- Wardrobe Wizard.........should be freely open for discussion in here, too.  IMO.

Did you notice that work is also a four letter word????

Quote - Did you notice that work is also a four letter word????

Except I never hear "work".  I always hear "Work-Work-Work!!!!!"  So I've come to the conclusion that it's a 12-letter word. 

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion of Poser, and merchants are not to post about sale items, why is anyone but the creator allowed to?

***To add to it, why in the world are all these off topic threads allowed? At times there are more ot threads here then poser related ones. If were going to add all kinds of rules, can we also get a rule that stops ot threads as well?

Why don't we institute a rule to stop all left-handed people from posting in here?  Short people, too.  Or people over age 65 or under age 25.

In fact, why don't I run the forum and make all of the decisions about how everything should be done?  At least in that way we would all know that everything in here would be 100% fair & above board -- the way that it should be.  When everyone does what I say..........and doesn't irritate me in the process -- now that's the proper definition of "fair".  Always has been, always will be.

I like a certain amount of OT.  It can, of course, be overdone.  But it's sort of nice to be able to discuss the weather as well as shadow cam settings and texture resolutions.  If that's all, then there's another forum called "Poser Technical".  Perfect for such: and with no "community-building" type conversations about cats or earthquakes.

BTW - IMO (don't you just love internet shorthand?) -- it's the OT stuff that draws a lot of the interest in a forum.  Not all -- but a lot.  Without it, a certain semi-real-life feel goes away.

Quote - ...At least in that way we would all know that everything in here would be 100% fair & above board -- the way that it should be...

But you would have to change your screen name to Pericles ('The Incorruptible'). :)

My own opinion (probably worth about 1/4 of a cent) is that it all comes down to the forums structure. Having a forum simply called Poser is far to general and should be treated or designed as a Poser runtime. An example could be having the main heading Poser then all of the subheadings General Poser Q & A(for all Poser questions from lighting to Posers nodes) then maybe Merchants Place(where all merchants free or pay can profile all new stuff) then Products Q & A( where questions on free or pay items are taken care of and could also handle the complaints of products or praise or even suggestions for future releases) again as I said this is just my extremely limited opinion and I maybe missing the target completely.

Agree with Conniekat.  After reading the DAZ commons for a while, their
method seems the simplest for both sides.  Throw it all together but require a
[COMMERCIAL] notation on posts by creators.

Quote - But you would have to change your screen name to Pericles ('The Incorruptible'). :)

"The Incorruptible".........I like it...........

BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that?  :biggrin:

maybee we could have commercial,freebie and OT flag like the nudity flag on posts and people could choose on their settings which post to be invisible
This way we could have all posts in just one forum...

Quote - BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that?  :biggrin:

Yeah. He was labelled as "the squill headed God Almighty" by Cratinus. Apparently there were some questions about the man's actual state of incorruptibility...

Quote - "BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that?  "

Yeah. He was labelled as "the squill headed God Almighty" by Cratinus. Apparently there were some questions about the man's actual state of incorruptibility...

Pericles!  That's right!  I thought it was Testicles.  My bad.

Jen-X said, "I'm pretty sure that some folk think we're complete morons and that they're getting away with it. "

You mean you AREN'T????? ROFLMAO!!!!

as long as they're getting rid of off-site merchant posts, IMVHO they should also get rid of
all the OT posts that get dumped here that have absolutely nothing to do with poser. 

open an OT forum instead.  if it's just for the harmless OT topix we see here now, and no
politics/religion/kiddie porn, it shouldn't be an enforcement problem like it was in the old days.

Quote -
open an OT forum instead. 

Why, they could even call it something like "Complaint and Debate"... snork.

(Sorry, man - I simply had to.)

/P

R'sity has had OT forums and R'sity has toasted them. What makes you think it will work this time?

Quote - R'sity has had OT forums and R'sity has toasted them.

Heh - yeah, we know. :)

/P

Heh... But Complaint and Debate could be fun...

Or maybe a Virtual Tavern?

What good are all theese separate forums when most people end up congregating in one or two of them????
I like busy bustling forums, even if there are OT posts and commercial posts and people arguing in one thread and people being helpful in a thread next door and whatever else happens around forums.