First of all, they were $15 if you're a club member and you only get three morphs, which is absurd.  I've never been happy with the flexibility of V4's morphs, so I figured I'd try the new ones and see if they'd fill in the gaps.  Thought maybe they'd be worth the exorbitant cost...

... they're not...

First of all, the Utopian morph is almost a total ripoff of Blackhearted's GND for V4.  That was amazingly disappointing as it pretty much makes the morph worthless since I already have Blackhearted's stuff and it's better. 

Second, The Fantasia morph almost looks like a broken mesh when set all the way to one.  It also isn't all that distinct from voluptuous or pear shaped and very similar looks can achieved with the morphs that V4 already had.

That leaves us with the Sylph morph, which did work well and look different, if you want to do renders of starved super models or "faeries".  My renders don't really encompass those subjects so that leaves me with an utterly worthless morph set.  Luckily DAZ has great customer service and an amazing return policy.

I used to swear by DAZ's products, but I've been more and more unhappy with their stuff ever since the release of V4.  There's not enough variety in clothes they're releasing (every outfit looks the same lately) and not enough variety in genre (almost all of it has been contemporary and very little sci-fi or fantasy).  Oh well I guess you can't stay on top forever...

Then use the money back guarentee refund?

I have to say that I actually like the new morphs, though I do agree with you about the price.   The new morphs add yet another dimension to character creation.  The more variety the better in that regard.  (I never set any morph dial to 1.  I firmly believe that most of the time, less is better.)

I intend to get my refund, as I already stated...

Do other people see that the Utopian morph is really close to GND though?  Or am I crazy?

I bought the package and I'm thinking of returning it. The morphs, though ridiculus in price, are useful and add some needed shapes, that combined with the V4++ and muscle morphs. Also the head morphs add to what is already there.

But, One texture has very bad stretching in the shoulders, some of the worse I've seen in years, so you have to cover them. Another texture has penciled in eyebrows and does not have a no make-up texture. To bad, I really liked the texture otherwise. The Lana texture seems the best but I'm still not put it through all the testing. I won't even comment on the so called shader. Best to use baggins or Face_Off or VueSkin.

I'm a PC member so I got the sale price and I don't think that it's all it's been hyped about at a high price. Is this the start of things to come? It has been stated that M4 is going the same way.

I'll give it a few days and see what happens.

Hey Gareee, Is that the new Daz rallying cry? LOL just kidding.

I probably will keep the bundle, got it at PC price.

Here's my value:

1. Lana texture, very crisp and makeup/highlight free
2. Lana very hi res specularity map and bump map.
3. The Utopia morph: it tilts the V4 pelvis and imparts the famous "s-curve" that I have to go thru great manipulations to get close to.
4. Also, the Utopia morph improves on the V4 horrible underarm crease issues.

Secondary:
I like the Amy texture above the neck; it has great bump and spec maps also.

Throw it away: the 'shader"; the Maya textures; the poses ain't great and not all work in poser.

Still...when I am used to getting three great MaskEdit skins per pack for $15.00 or so......

:::::: Opera ::::::
 

I really love them..love the new shapes that you can get with them, especially the Fantasia body morph

Onimusha, I don't have her. I held off because I wasn't sure what I was getting.
The images I saw of one morph (not sure which it is) does remind me of GND a bit.
As I said to BH before - if I want something to look like GND... I'll go buy GND. :) Not some imitation.

About the only thing I like that I saw were the shape of the breasts, which seem a lot more natural now.
But seeing as I don't really render naked women... well.
I guess that doesn't make me "pro" enough.
Frankly, I prefer to spin the dials rather than use a .8 spin of a prefab dial, because well... everyone can and it'll look the same.
I usually fiddle with the dials even on any char package I buy.

And Garee - that was pretty snappy for a guy whose signature tag says people take things too seriously and a cow grinning at me. :)
Onimusha isn't the only one who found things wrong, after all, and those of us who haven't bought her yet want to know what people really think of her.

Here's another huge problem with the morphs.  They don't blend well with the muscle morphs at all.  Fantasia starts to look like a torn 3D mesh if you dial up the muscle morphs even in small amounts.

This is where I wish they had innovated more Garee.  Textures are a lot easier to implement than a good mesh or a poser figure that bends well.  V4's flexibility in terms of how it morphs and bends weren't even close to being enough of an improvement over V3.  They did improve the bending in  some place, but not where V3 had it's biggest problems.  It still has a lot of the problem areas V3 had (glutes and thighs), and doesn't even come close to V3's morphing flexibility.  I felt like I could morph V3 into any person I actually knew (and was very successful at making morphs of real friends look like them), but V4 just can't do that.

They should have either included more morphs in the elite package or made them a lot cheaper. but $15 for morphs that don't even work that well and are also a ripoff of well established Poser artists is just not where DAZ needs to be at all...

Quote - And Garee - that was pretty snappy for a guy whose signature tag says people take things too seriously and a cow grinning at me. :)
Onimusha isn't the only one who found things wrong, after all, and those of us who haven't bought her yet want to know what people really think of her.

Sorry, I don't waste time if I don't like something whining and complaining about it.. I get my money back, and move on. I've bought tons of utilites, and products I was very disapointed in, but that's life.

Well, if you read the blurb about their new 3D suite at DAZ, on the morphs side the point is supposed to be that they have a new suite of laser scanners etc for full-body scanning real live people's body shapes precisely, and having that translated directly into morphs for their 4th generation figures, to produce very realistic shapes as they are in fact direct representations of the people they scanned. The 3 'Elite' morphs for V4.2 are the first product of that process, being morphs from 3 real life women they had in to represent 3 body types, and they aren't just an artist's impression of shapes, sculpting mesh to try to match what's in their mind's eye or photos, they ARE the shapes of 3 real women they had in the suite to be laser scanned for the morphs.

Similarly the Elite pose sets are produced by having people standing in the wanted positions with sensors on, that the computer then converts to an exact representation of the pose. And the textures are done from the photo part of the suite, with a computer driven camera of some huge resolution and turntable, to produce very high resolution textures directly from the photos with 100% coverage of the original model's original skin - no messing around cutting and pasting bits from this and that to cover everything.

Then the idea is this is the 'Elite' line of super realism due to the processes used to produce the morphs poses and textures with all the fancy gear. And costs more for the realism and because of the cost of all the very sophisticated gear needed to do it, and for paying individual models for each texture set and body morph, taken off them, each of which is only used for that one product so they all remain completely unique.
 
It's an interesting concept - and more aimed at the high end profesional user who may need high degrees of realism for a commercial project than the hobbyist.

Whether individuals will think it's successful or worth it will, as with all things, vary.

Even without reading the above, I knew the body morphs had been taken from life somehow, just by the shape of the breasts. They are not Daz breasts!

::::: Opera :::::

V4 is eight heads tall which is WAY above average height of a caucasian woman.

So claiming that these three Elite morphs are anywhere close to realistic bodyshapes is ridiculous.

Even if they started out as actual bodyscans they have been so thoroughly "processed" and "reworked" and "adapted" to V4's unrealistic default proportions that they are now about as "realistic" as any of the gazillion V3 "dial spun" bodyshapes you find in the marketpace already.

Saggy boobs and a fat ass don't make "realism".
Believable proportions and accurate details do.
And last time I checked real woman had kneecaps and shoulderblades and an actual skeleton and muscles under their skin.

Sorry folks, you can't polish a turd.
If you want to turn Barbie into a real person, you have to do a wee bit more than a quicky morph and slap some so called "hi-rez" textures on her.

At least if you really want to sell her to a "professional" audience and not just make a quick buck by impressing a few naive D|S users with a mouthy advertising campaign.

But it's good to see that a lot of people in the Poserverse still haven't drunk the KoolAid.

I've always said her legs are much longer than average in proportion. -0.65 Leglength morphorm, and she overlays a bunch of photos of quite a wide selection of women very precisely in proportions all over. Much more than any other female Poser figure I've tried - V2, V3, Posette, Jessi, JessiG2, Miki1, Miki2, S3, A3. (the last two were the next closest.)

It's not just the legs.

I've been around the bend with Joe Public on this before. I do what DavidGB does and put her into different proportion. It works.

In addition, here's my counter: in an animation or a still, these fine points of proportion will NOT be seen. Not if you put the right amount of human drama into the pose or animation.

I am keeping it brief and avoiding vulgarity in this response.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - BTW, you don't need a full 3d laser scanner to create a realistic bodyshape.

Of course you don't.

But that doesn't invalidate it as a method of doing it. And if DAZ are trying to get into the market for providing figures for the film and gaming industries (which they are), it's a damn site quicker if you can just get a model in to spin round in the scanner and the computer spits out a morph than having somebody sitting there trying to sculpt the shape from scratch in a modeller. Gives them the capacity for very quick custom production. Which is why they've invested in all the expensive tech, I would imagine. Throwing some of it out to the hobbyist Poser market's likely just a spin off.

Jessie vs V4

V: People are talking about us.
M: Yes, I heard. Hey, I thought you were taller.
V: I wanted to look you straight in the eye.
M: So you've been cut down to size?
V: No, I just wanted to shop in the petitle section. So, I'm dialed in now.
M: You've got a lot learn about being this size.
V: I've got plenty of time. But don't get a big head just because you were here first.
M: That's not real underwear, is it?
V: No.

Quote - It's not just the legs.

these things are subjective. You have your opinion, I have mine, and I stick by what I said up above. I have tested all those figures over quite a large selection of photos - a bunch of different models from 3DSK, but some others too. V4, with -0.65 leglength morphform, is a very close macth to all of them in ALL her body proportions, and better than any of the others. S3, A3Realistic and Miki2 aren't too bad, but not as close as V4 by a noticeable margin. The rest look like radiation accidents and aliens.

I'm all for 3d laser scanners.

But don't claim "unprecedented realism" if you actually can't deliver.
Let DAZ put a woman, a man, and two children into that scanner and I'm the first to buy the resulting meshes.
(IF they are properly rigged.)

BUT DO NOT CHANGE A FRIGGIN' YOTA OF THAT DATA.
Don't slim the mesh down here, bulk it up there, or stretch it a bit there to make it more "stylish" and "sexy"
and more "mass compatible".

They don't have to use fugly fat people.
If they want to use photomodels, fine.

BUT LEAVE THE DATA ALONE.

Give me REAL people not some "artist impression".

If you want "artsy fartsy", do that with morphs.
But give me a CORRECT and ACCURATE base I can work with.

And if you can't do that, you shouldn't even take the word "professional" into your mouth.

"In addition, here's my counter: in an animation or a still, these fine points of proportion will NOT be seen. Not if you put the right amount of human drama into the pose or animation."

Sorry, operaguy, that is the most laughable excuse for sloppy work I've ever heard.

I'm a scale modeller for almost 40 years.
If a model has 5-spoke wheels but 6-spoke wheels would be correct, then the model is rubbish.
If it is a tenth of an inch too long or too wide, guess what ?
It's rubbish, too.

That's the difference between an accurate scale model and a children's toy.
A scale model has to be accurate, a children's toy can be stylized and lack details.

If "toys" are good enough for you, so be it.
But don't assume for a second that everyone else has as low standards as you obviously have.

There is no "artistic freedom" if you want realism.

Too bad that MIKI's body was EXACTLY sculpted after Czech model Aneta Keys.

"Which is why they've invested in all the expensive tech, I would imagine. Throwing some of it out to the hobbyist Poser market's likely just a spin off."

Not throwing some of it out at the hobbyist. Making the hobbyist pay for thier shinny new tech.

I like what the new morphs add, but these textures, I'm finding are pretty flawed for the amount of Bragging and Hype Daz and minions are claiming. I have been watching the Daz threads and I'm seeing images posted that people are creaming thier jeans over and I'm not seeing anything that I can't get from a Rhannion or Orion and some others in high rez quality. Is it the artist's, the shaders, the app or combination of all three mixed with the lost art of doing things yourself and not looking for that all in one, elusive, "Make Realism Art Button"

So for the hobbyist, it really is a waste of money to them. The textures I'm talking about as I said I like the Morphs. But Daz can poop on a stick and people will come out in Groves to buy it. That's just the way it is. And yes I did buy too but I'm on the verge of returning it all and just get the morph. Let someone else pay for that shinny new tech.

Did their 15 gig camera and laser scanner fix V4's shoulders?

In hollywood, even at Pixar etc., they don't wait for the "perfect model". They don't care. They have 100 years of illusioneering to take the minimum necessary to convey the story. My "sorry excuse" is SOP for the world of successful entertainment.

No one cares that Miki was modeled after whomever.

No one cares if the model is "perfect" or not.

::::: Opera :::::

You're right.  A character like the Hulk has 120 uv maps.  I wonder how many texture maps,  rigs and meshes they used as well.

I believe this about as far as I could throw DAZ's HDAC.  The Utopian morph is a complete ripoff of Blackhearted's GND, a morph that is well known, and seems to sell well enough to survive two iterations of Victoria.  Whatever scanning they did went out the window whenever they decided to rip Blackhearted off (unless Blackhearted was on the design team).

Here's a comparison... you tell me which one is which...

Lots I would imagine. They would use more than one model mesh. Highrez for closeups, med and low rez models for other distances and all rigged and uv maps and textures for each model. Makes you understand why it takes so many poeple to do a model.

*Lots I would imagine. They would use more than one model mesh. Highrez for closeups, med and low rez models for other distances and all rigged and uv maps and textures for each model. Makes you understand why it takes so many poeple to do a model.

That's what I'm thinkin' too.  Probably a separate,  mesh,  rig, and map for each storyboard.

*I believe this about as far as I could throw DAZ's HDAC.  The Utopian morph is a complete ripoff of Blackhearted's GND, a morph that is well known, and seems to sell well enough to survive two iterations of Victoria.  Whatever scanning they did went out the window whenever they decided to rip Blackhearted off (unless Blackhearted was on the design team).

Here's a comparison... you tell me which one is which...

Yeah!  Sure looks like GNDV4.  Wonder how long it will be before Daz puts everyone's content in mogware video games?

turn those models sideways. Utopia has a marked S_Curve and tilted spine. GND too?

I also want to see a comparison of the default breasts for each.

::::: Opera :::::

Trying to achieve realism while holding to a Disney-esque standard of perfection is self-defeating. Human skin is almost always flawed and often horrifying when viewed at high resolution. Daz does not do realism, preferring to maintain the Disney/Hugh Hefner esthetic. Daz is where the airbrush meets the cartoon.

Quote - turn those models sideways. Utopia has a marked S_Curve and tilted spine. GND too?

I also want to see a comparison of the default breasts for each.

::::: Opera :::::

The only real difference are the breasts... other than that they're about 90% similar... the fact that even from the back they look almost the same, where GND is a very distinct morph, shows that DAZ is just ripping Blackhearted off...

This morph certainly did not come from some real person...

At least GND comes with a good and fairly distinct texture for about the same price...

*Trying to achieve realism while holding to a Disney-esque standard of perfection is self-defeating. Human skin is almost always flawed and often horrifying when viewed at high resolution. Daz does not do realism, preferring to maintain the Disney/Hugh Hefner esthetic. Daz is where the airbrush meets the cartoon.

Check out this thread.   http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20185&page=4

Quote - There is no "artistic freedom" if you want realism.

JoePublic, I don't think I understand the above quoted comment.

As the proportions and appearances of human beings differ so widely around the world, isn't your perception of what is "realistic," like every other artist's, subjective?

And why are typical (or "average") figure proportions assumed to be more correct, or more realistic, than atypical anyway?

Isn't equating "average" to "correct" some kind of aesthetic, subjective judgment?, i.e., an artistic choice, even if an unconscious and unexamined one?

And doesn't that qualify as you exercising your "artistic freedom?"

A realistic model is like a 3d photograph.
And a modeller that wants to depict reality has to work like a camera.

If you want to model a toon car, you basically can do what you want as long as it has four wheels.
It takes some skill to make a GOOD toon car (Like the folks at Pixar did in "Cars"), but you are basically free to develop the shape anyway you like.

But if you want a model of a car that looks EXACTLY like the real deal, you have to first import blueprints into your modeller and slavishly trace every line.
You can't say: " Oh, I'd rather would that fender to look like THAT and that bumper to look like THIS."

A good model either looks EXACTLY like the real world object it is meant to represent, or it doesn't.

Now with humans, all of the sudden lack of skill or just sloppy work is "artistic freedom".

Yes, humans come in a lot of shapes, but the shapes aren't arbitrary.
There are rules, at least for healthy, average people.
You cannot just throw shapes together nilly-willy and then claim that SOMEONE out there might actually look like this.
Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
Same reason why despite all the dial spinning all 99% of the morphs out there look the same.
Even if you crank fat or anorexic up to 2.0, the shape still screams VICKY immediately.

In the human shape, all things work togeher.
And the only way to receive the necessary accuracy is to start with an actual human and then slavishly "trace the lines".

Once you have that base, you can still make morphs to let your imagination "run wild".

But as I said, if you want 100% realism, if you want to
make your renders look like an actual photograph (Or at least close to that), your options are very limited.

All this "Let her be anything you want" "Dial a character" cr*p has led people to believe that they could do anything they want and still have an "oh so realistic" result.

Take operaguys example above. MIKI looks RIGHT because her mesh was sculpted after an actual 5 ft 5 in tall woman so everything works nicely together.
Dialing V4's legs shorter makes her look WRONG because taller people don't just have longer legs.
The whole skeleton is different because of different statics.

The human shape is the result of such a complicated set of rules, it's much better to just stick to a shape that actually exists than trying to invent your own.
Even the old masters used life models.

Compared with V4 (Or any female Poser mesh except MIKI), even a real live supermodel looks like a fat stubby ugly dwarf because DAZ thinks that if beauty sells, the uber-perfect airbrushed unrealistic "beauty" you find on magazine covers will sell even more.

And they are actually RIGHT with that assumption because 99% of their clientel don't know better and are already brainwashed by the constant barrage of lies crammed down their throats via advertising in high gloss magazines.

My problem is not so much that V4 is highly stylized and lacks even the most basic details.
(Although I'm deeply dissapointed because I really hoped that she'd be more realistic compared to V3)

If that's what people want, let them have it.

But they (and their cheerleaders) should stop touting what they do as "realism" when it clearly is not.

Because this is a slap into the face of anyone who IS actually trying to achive realism.

Joe your creditbility is shot if you think V3 was more realistic than V4. I respect you from other encounters, but that is a very wrong thought. Please explain if you actually meant that. I can't believe you actually mean it.

Further:
"Photorealism" is not photography. "Photorealism" is a school of serious art that rose to prominence in the 60s and 70s. It was not then, and is not now, photography. It is a "take" on reality, a confrontation of naturalism vs romanticism, but with no intention to fool the viewer. It is a comentary on realism.

You rudely crushed my first attempt to convey this to you by denying my context. Here: I will fix that by stipulating something on your side of the argument:

If one's goal in 3D is to 1) emulate a clinical photograph, or; 2) create a model that can be viewed from any angle in a static investigation having nothing to do with artistic interpretation, then yes, V4 is not real. It fails. Believe me, so does every other model I have ever seen, right up to Stahlberg and his peers. Maybe some digital models in the medical 3D world are getting closer.

Now that you have that, you can consider yourself un-slapped in the face, okay?

But do not slap the face of an interpretive artist or entertainment creator by saying that our expressions are sloppy etc. because we make do with imperfect models.

Do you want to test this idea? Do this thought experiment: take your hypothetical perfectly scanned, perfectly rigged human model. Put it in the hands of a someone who does not grasp how to "see."  They will create a static pose or animation with your model that will not engage anyone in verisimilitude. It will be dead and inhuman. Your "Photorealism" is dead.

Now take an imperfect model from Daz or whoever, and put it into the hands of an artist who understands how to "represent the human form." He/she will make people weep or cry or scream with laughter. No one will notice if the sholder blades are missing, or the kneecaps.

::::: Opera :::::

You should also know that to me, the default miki looks like an alien creature or botched attempt by one of the Valar to make a new race before Illuvatar gave them permission.

::::: Opera :::::

Got pretty depressed, when the Elite Products turned up in the store. A bundle for fifty bucks. The three morphs alone for fifteen (if you are a member). Special texture sets for the special morphs - do existing V4 textures not work with the new mophs? And lots of upgrades for existing clothes that have to be paid for. Too much costs for too little known about assets.

Glad I read this thread and learned about laser-sculpting, professional needs and more details about the Elite products. Confirmed my descision, that I don't need them. Never was one for elitism anyway. ;)

Hate to tell you but Aneta Keys who's body MIKI was sculpted after makes quite a comfortable living being an adult model, so it looks a lot of men find this "botched attempt" quite atractive and perfectly acceptable.

:biggrin:

I have no problem with toons, anime, semi-relism, stylized realism.
Guido Crepax and Milo Manara create the sexiest 2d-woman in the world and both are pretty "stylized".

What I DO have a problem with is simply when people start to mix styles.
I use the term "photorealism" because most people wrongly apply "realism" to anything that isn't toon or anime.

Yes, I want my virtual models to have the same clinical accuracy as my "real" models.
Poser is closest to real life diorama building.
You can spend month building and painting streets or ground and trees and houses.
You can again spent months painting and refining the models you put on that diorama.
But if the models have fundamental flaws, the WHOLE WORK is ruined, even the good parts.

Take Stonemasons scenes. He works so hard to make them PHOTOREALISTIC.
Every dimension is correct, every detail is right.

And then you put V4 in it and everything is ruined.

As I said, if you want "semi-realistic" and "stylized", fine.

But don't sell it as "state of the art" or "realistic".
Because PHOTOREALISM in 3d is A LOT HARDER than making toons.
That's why it is the holy grail for so many professional artists and they won't stop unless they achieved it.

V4 has a lot of other (rigging 1) problems, but in a SEMI-REALISTIC environment, she works nicely for most people.

If SEMI-REALISTIC is your intention, and not just the result of a lack of skills.

THAT's my point.
Don't promote V4 as something she isn't.
Every professional will spot her flaws in a New Yorker second.
And all the cooing "ZOMG, THIS IS TEH MOST REALISTIC RENDER I'LL EVER SEEN !!!!!11111"
comments might fill DAZ coffers, but will make Poser (And D|S) and everybody who's using it even more the laughingstock of the 3d world.

It's a shame.

I doubt that Poser is capeable of 100% PHOTOREALISM. Not yet. Maybe sometimes, when you get really lucky with the lights.
But it already can kick some serious derrière if used by someone who knows what he's doing.

As "getting professional" seems to be the latest rage in Poserdom, it wouldn't hurt to actually create some professional grade meshes first.

Just as a start.

Once you have the accurate base, THEN we will have to worry about PHOTOREALISTIC textures and poses and lights and shaders.

But the human shape is where it all begins.
If you don't have that right, everything else will fail, too.

Thetis, the morphs are actually a very nice addition to the others.  When used in moderation (as with most morphs), they produce excellent results.  (I NEVER dial any morph to 1.)  And you actually get SIX morphs in the package - 3 body, 3 head.

Too bad the head morphs are less than worthless.  They don't really add much flexibility to V4 at all.  It's not like they allow you to tune any specific facial features, which would have been useful.  They're just stock faces, and morphing with them is going to make your faces look like everyone else's.  You can get a lot more distinct looks by just fine tuning feature morphs.

No one sells a pack of this few morphs, which do this little, and are this much of a copy of someone else's product, for this much money in the Poser community.  If people buy this stuff, they're basically telling DAZ that they can give us 90% less in a moprh pack for 90% more money.  Compare it with the Morphia pack from DAZ where you get dozens of morphs, that truly do new and different things to V4, for the same price.

Hmmm.  I was hoping Daz would've included the following morphs;  foot compression,  hand compression,  glute and thigh compression and a few other morphs to mimic soft body dynamics.  That way people wouldn't be able to recognize her in renders.

Actually, onimusha, you can still fine tune the morphs with other, specific facial features.  I don't know where that comment came from that they don't allow you to do that, because you can fine tune these just like any other, combining them with specific feature morphs, expression morphs, etc. 

You have your opinion, I have mine.  For me, variety is the spice of life, and these new morphs add to that, even if it doesn't seem like very much. 

Of course you can fine tune them, but they don't do enough and certainly don't do enough that's different to even be worth fine tuning.

We do differ on opinions, and I feel very strongly about mine because for me it's a matter of consumerism.  DAZ is trying to put out what I consider an inferior product and I'd like to warn people away from it...

Understood.  I know the morphs are at issue on this thread, but I have to say that I do feel that the rest of the Elite line is, IMO, definitely not worth the money.  (IE, the Amy texture with it's stretched, distorted freckles on the shoulders.  That's just inexcusable.)

Quote - Understood.  I know the morphs are at issue on this thread, but I have to say that I do feel that the rest of the Elite line is, IMO, definitely not worth the money.  (IE, the Amy texture with it's stretched, distorted freckles on the shoulders.  That's just inexcusable.)

This is exactly why a lot of merchants I know are refusing to create more detailed and realistic textures - noone wants to be beaten to death with accusations in bad texturing when the problem is in the mesh and UVmapping. The longer one is going to refuse supporting vendors who work hard on raising the overall quality, the longer one is going to buy smooth floodfills with no details whatsoever.
Coming back to the Elite morphs - these three morphs are perfectly fitting to classical fantasy/pinup /sci-fi body shapes :) I fnd it hard to recreate these shapes with existing Morphs ++ While the hean morphs are more like a bonus addon, the body shapes are really helping in recreating Vallejo, Frazetta, Ravenscroft or Delamare imagery - something more out-of-the-box than your average poser NVIATWAS :)

My 2c,

Michal
4blueye

Quote:

"...noone wants to be beaten to death with accusations in bad texturing when the problem is in the mesh and UVmapping."*

*The question then becomes, is something being done to correct the mesh and UVmapping so this sort of thing doesn't happen?  It's all tied in together.  If one underlying part fails, the rest falls apart.  I realize this issue is not necessarily with the vendor making the texture.  I am glad vendors are refusing to make more detailed textures until this issue is resolved.  That make sense to me.  No one should want to put out something that just isn't going to work properly given the underlying issues.

There are dozens of Vallejo/Frazetta type women in the galleries that people have done without this morph set.  Look at Acras' stuff in the galleries... he did a whole series of Frazetta women that looked spot on.

It's interesting to get a merchant's perspective on things though.  Not being a merchant, I'm not well acquainted with how tough the poser buyer can be.  I know I'm being fairly brutal about this product, but I blame DAZ's pricing and marketing and not the artists who made the stuff.

Quote - Quote:

"...noone wants to be beaten to death with accusations in bad texturing when the problem is in the mesh and UVmapping."*

*The question then becomes, is something being done to correct the mesh and UVmapping so this sort of thing doesn't happen?  It's all tied in together.  If one underlying part fails, the rest falls apart.  I realize this issue is not necessarily with the vendor making the texture.  I am glad vendors are refusing to make more detailed textures until this issue is resolved.  That make sense to me.  No one should want to put out something that just isn't going to work properly given the underlying issues.

IMHO there is no actual issue to fix in the mesh anyway, if the uvmapping were made to look good with arms down, then it will look totally wrong when arms are up, it is a lose-lose situation. Unfortunately native poser rigging limitations are causing this and there is mostly no way around it. 
The problem is not in mesh or uvmapping shortcomings, it's in the public attitude.

And about the morphs already present for V4 - I better get an one click solution than decide to devote hours to dial-twisting :D

One click morphs kinda defeat the purpose for me... playing with the dials and creating a character is where the fun's at for me... :).