I've been a member of Renderosity for a number of years and up until about a year ago I always valued comments left by people, however there seems to be an ever increasing number of people who cut and paste virtually the same comment on hundreds of images, plus a few that seem to favourite everything under the sun. This seems to be in a bid to constantly get in the many art charts that Renderosity produces. This kind of behaviour has nothing to do whatsoever with art and seems to me to be an ego boost of some sort. I have found one artist that has over 1000 pages of favourite images which to me is beyond belief.
Please can we scrap the art charts as they seem pretty meaningless to me these days and may stop this sort of behaviour which is destroying the purpose of Renderosity and one of the reasons that is driving me and many other people away from this site.
I'd like to hear peoples view on this as I have spoken with many people on here who feel exactly the same way as me.

there is about 6000 threads about it spread over about 20 years.........makes not a blind bit of difference

I'm right with you, Tony on the reasoning, here.  The Art Charts seem to always have the same people at the top 10, week after week.  It's a 'clique' and club around here.  There are some fine artists around here, and more than just Poser users, yet nakedness seems to be the selling point. 

As far as the C&P commenting....most of it comes from the one's looking to get in the Charts....see how many renders they can comment upon and favorite to get the same in return.  

My idea for the Art Charts:  once you make it in the listing, you're off until the following month.  That way, more people would get the chance to see their work appreciated.
I've turned off ratings long ago, so I'm not concerned about getting into the Art Charts.....been there once and that's enough for me.

Maybe someone needs to make a stance then because this site is being used for the wrong reasons by some people. I feel that scrapping the art charts would certainly have some effect.

Well said photostar, the true artists on here are being thwarted by the ego chasers. Maybe the charts should divide the number of comments somene receives by the number of comments and/or the number of favourite images they make during each period.

I have an even better idea.....the percentage of comments versus viewings.  Do the Charts that way.  Of course, that may increase the C&P comments dramatically...LOL

LOL, I'll have to practice my CTRL+C and CTRL+V technique then, there are certainly plenty of experts on here I can ask.

Photostar has a good idea for the Art Charts.

I see lots of really good artist that get hardly any comments at all. One of the hard parts is just getting peoples attention to take a look and then take the time to leave a comment.. Looking at pages of stuff in a short period of time sometimes its hard to leave more then a short comment. I think leaving a comment to say hi I stopped by and enjoyed looking at your artwork is important. 

Personally - I do not let it bother me or affect how I want to comment to other people. I appreciate everyone who comes by and looks at my images and leaves a comment. Those that leave a bit of advice or an idea of what caught their attention are of course especially appreciated. I have lots to learn and each is a chance to learn something and a bit of encouragment.

Não entendo porque tanta preocupação com art-chart, creio firmemente que RR, é mais uma escola, uma formação de amigos, e uma mina de criatividade muitas amizades são feitas aqui, e muitas admirações são criadas. Milhares de artistas, milhares de estilos próprios.
Eu faço meus comentários básicamente pelo e-mail, aos meus artistas favoritos. Até gostaria de ter tempo para passar a centena de obras postas diariamente e descobrir novos talentos, mas infelizmente não há  tempo para isto. Não sou analista de obras, quanto a qualidade. Mas sei que já vi obras muito bem elaboradas mas que a mim não transmitiram nada. Talves porque eu acredite ingenuamente que a arte esta vinculada ao sentimento. Mas respeito todas os opiniões, como respeito as colocadas aqui. Não posso julgar o intimo de cada um, ainda mais que também já me questionei quando vi uma obra de um artista, com  5 comentários e um rating de 4800 , talves uma das mais bonitas que encontrei aqui, mas...
Fica siceramente minha admiração profunda pelo talento incrivel de  photostar, cuja obra comecei a tomar conhecimento num video que Magik fez e me impressionou.
Assim como Tanglimara, que atravez de um comentário  em minha imagem minha fui visitar sua galeria e tambem fiquei impressionado.
Se comento aqui neste forum é por respeito a arte, aos artistas, a amizade e o mundo que representa RR, onde com linguas de todas as partes, conseguem na maioria das vezes fazerem se entender. Obrigado pela oportunidade e desculpe pelo meu alongamento.
do not understand why so much concern with art-chart, I firmly believe that RR, it is a school, a training of friends, and a mine of creativity many friendships are made here, and many admirações are created. Thousands of artists, thousands of styles themselves. I basically do my comments by e-mail, to my favorite artists. So I would have time to spend a hundred works made daily and discover new talent, but unfortunately there is no time for this. I am not an analyst of works, as the quality. But I have seen that works very well prepared but not sent anything to me. Perhaps because I naively believe that art linked to this feeling. But respect all opinions, and respect those posed here. I can not judge each of the intimate, even more that has already questioned me when I saw a work of an artist, with 5 comments and a rating of 4800, Perhaps one of the most beautiful I found here, but... Siceramente is my deep admiration for the incredible talent of photostar, whose work began to be aware that a video made Magik and impressed me. Like Tanglimara, which through a comment on my picture was my visit your gallery and I was also impressed. If comment here in this forum is to respect the art, the artists, the friendship and the world that represents RR, where languages with all the parties, can make most of the time to understand. Thank you for the opportunity and sorry for my stretching.

Art charts have gone the way of the Top 10 (or whatever it was).  I've seen someone make the charts that finally posted a photo that was not out of focus for a change. 

This is not a dig at the individual, because I like that person; but the things posted are sometimes not up to even an amateur standard but there will be a myriad of copy/paste favorable comments on their daily uploads.

Tony, I advise you just to ignore the whole thing because no matter how it is changed or not changed some will abuse the system for self gratification.

Interesting thread you've started here.  I guess I'm a bit clueless, because I don't follow the charts, nor do I submit a rating when I comment.  I comment because I like something enough to do so, the C&P-ers will just find another way to get around if they fix that one.  I see it all the time in Photography, where I do most of my posting--pages and pages of comments on the most banal of shots, simply because someone comments on just about everything they see.  Oh well, I'm here because I love doing what I do, and if someone wants to tell me they like it, I'm up with that.  If they don't, that's ok, too.

I agree with skiwillgee Tony,don't let the abuse of the system get under your skin.There are a lot of artists on the site who are producing some amazing works,and I feel we should let them know that we saw their work,admired it,perhaps have suggestions for improvement or let them know that they've inspired us with their imparted knowledge,and leave it at that.I certainly appreciate the knowledge that my work may have appealed to someone enough for them to leave a comment or critique,at least it's being viewed!I couldn't care less about the ratings,in fact I had been considering removing that element in my own comments area,and I've never even entertained the thought of making it onto any charts...doesn't get a shred of consideration on my part.If they are continued,I do like Keith's idea as far as being off the list of eligibility once you've made it on one month...spread the wealth around,so to speak.Either that or have a select panel judge the one's who do make the list,and choose those images that truly show artistic originality or exceptional use of the programs used to appear on that month's final list.That's my turn on the soapbox,now if you'll excuse me I have some art to create!

Quote -
Tony, I advise you just to ignore the whole thing because no matter how it is changed or not changed some will abuse the system for self gratification.

Hi skiwillgee,

Surely if we scrap the art charts then this would stamp out this kind of behaviour.

I remember a while back I posted a fractal and a few days later received a site mail saying that it had been picked to be included in a weekly (or monthly, I can't remember which) fractal showcase gallery. I actually found that much more rewarding than being on the art charts.

To prove a point about the art charts I posted an image a few months ago and spent about 8 hours commenting solidly ... sure enough I am now in the all time art charts with that image, however the feeling of accomplishment is not there because I know how it was achieved.

Can we not have monthly showcases picked by impartial moderators/members or something along those lines.

A couple of other sites I'm involved with have weekly image awards where they pick a number of exceptional images. The chosen artists are given an award gif to display with the image in recognition which is displayed permanently underneath their image.

Tony.

Tony what your proposing will never happening unfortunatley there are to many glory hunters out there yes we all like to see our work acknowledged and constructive critique given and i totally agree with what your saying. But there are also a lot of the people that work in rendo that love to shower themselves with the glory of the charts  so thats why it will never happen what you propose. Basically i never get anywhere near the charts lol and cant even remember the last time i went there and when i was there it was same people and staff basking in their own self importance.
 
First build wall then place head at middle point and then keep banging becuase no one will listen

Regards Kelvin

Oh this been talked about so many times , aritsts boycotting and such but then again, we here share our artwork with old and new friends , discover new artists  and this should ve been the main reason why we here.
I didn't even know that charts existed..untill i read one of complaints about "comenting machines" Not that I care much either.
The funny thing is , when you start being honest and leave comments on art that you really want to say somthing about , and/or not return comment(as just a thank you) to copy&paste person , they will eventually stop showing up at your page.
I don't think this can be solved somehow...the only fix is to cancel existing charts  :)  all I do is try look a lot at new galleries, and also seen people link to new talanted aritsts from their own images posts .

If you want to get an impression of the best that the galleries have to offer, watch for the Staff Picks, those images are invariably of high quality. I've found quite a few artist worth watching for by looking at the Staff Picks.

The system is definitely often unfair and tends to get abused quite a bit Tony. It can get under your skin, but I mostly agree with dbrv6 and flaviok.
I don't cut and paste, but it's simply impossible to leave detailed comments on all the postings that deserve them - and I'm convinced that there are lots of great artist here on Rendo whom I haven't even discovered yet.
I see plenty of superb artists here, who certainly don't get the attention they should get. I also see lots of artists, who may not yet be that technically proficient, but pour their hearts and souls into their artwork - which, in my opinion, doesn't make them any less deserving. For that matter, I'm learning something new every day myself.
As far as the charts go, I don't really care if you want to scrap them altogether and take the rating system with them, while you're at it. Unfortunately, something else will inevitably crop up in their place...
I'm a bit leery about independent and impartial panels, because as always, "who guards the guardians?"
There are other galleries with such panels out there and many of them seem to turn eventually into all self-important little tin-gods who have, because it's human nature, their own preferences and favorites. I'm not so sure if that's the way we want to go.

Yeah, a panel of people picking just their friends and favourite artists was in the back of my mind when I suggested the use of independant judges to pick images, it seems whichever way we want to go someone will find a way to abuse the system. As far as scrapping the art charts I suppose that it may upset the people who are legitimately already on there so I could be on a hiding to nothing.
Of all the ideas put forward so far I think photostars is the best suggestion of only allowing entry to the charts once a month as that would give the none cut and paste commenters their rightful chance of getting in the charts, for 3 weeks anyway. I suppose the downside to this would be that the offenders would only post once a month.
I just really want something fair for the true artists on here that should be recognised instead of the comment and favourite chasers on here who have nothing better to do than try to shower themselves in glory.
Any suggestions for a fairer way of running the charts would be welcome.
I still think some sort of calculation using the number of  comments and favourites people receive against the number they give out might do the trick. I just don't know what the formula is at the moment. I'll have a think, maybe some sort of percentage ratio between the 2.

Example:
A comment chaser would give out 500 comments and receive a high number back, say 200 which is a 40% ratio. (200 comments would get them into the charts)
A true artist would not go comment chasing, they would comment on ones they like, say 20 and if there work is really good they will receive 40 back, this is 200%.
200% is higher than 40% so the true artist wins.
The same could be applied to favourites and ratings.
But there again, this may have the effect of stopping people from giving too many comments ... who knows.

Any thoughts from any of the moderators on here.

Tony.

I aggree it is a problem. I think members that are caught copy/pasting comments, (meaning the same exact comment on more than 5 or ten recent images, should just be banned or suspended and publicly flogged.. There is no excuse for it.

On the other hand, I do aggree with a lot of the comments posted so far, but I really think that I do my art for my own enjoyment. I like to share it, and getting nice comments is always great, but I appriciate the feedback / constructive critisism more than anything, it helps me get better.

in the end, my art is for me. I share it so I can better it, for ME. If I ever get good enough that someone wants to pay for my art, well, that would be a pipe dream, but it's really just for me and a hobby.

As far as the charts go, I think having members voluntarily participate or not participate in it might be the best solution, as well as some different ways of rating it...if it is decided that it will remain at all.

We will bring these suggestions for the art chart calculations to the programmers to see. We will not be getting rid of the Art Charts. Please remember they are there for just a fun factor type feature...There are some criteria already in place to keep abuse down and it works much better than the old fun Hot 20.  Its just for fun for the members.

Please also remember that we do have a forum and gallery for artists serious about getting critique comments only to improve their work.

Quote - We will bring these suggestions for the art chart calculations to the programmers to see. We will not be getting rid of the Art Charts. Please remember they are there for just a fun factor type feature...There are some criteria already in place to keep abuse down and it works much better than the old fun Hot 20.  Its just for fun for the members.

Hi Stacey,

Many thanks for feeding my suggestions back to the programmers for their consideration. Deep down I too would like to see the art charts remain as they are fun as you say, I just want them to be a fairer reflection on the really great artists on here rather than people who abuse the system just to see their name in lights. These days the art charts are beginning to look like a couple of peoples personal gallery rather than an art chart.

At the end of the day, how these cut and pasters behave is up to them but I just don't think they should be rewarded with a position in the charts when all they do is purposely abuse the system to achieve their goals.

I look forward to hearing what the programmers say on this matter. I'd also be interested in the criteria currently in place to keep abuse down but I quite understand if this is privileged information only.

Many thanks for taking time to look into this for me.

Tony.

If the charts can be "adjusted" in some way to exclude the serial commenters then that would be a good thing - they are a good way to see what is popular and find some great art and artists that you may have missed - but it is frustrating to see mediocre work rewarded when much better artists are overlooked.

To Stacey,

On thinking this over again I'm not sure how my suggested calculations could be applied because if someone puts on 3 images in one week then I can't see how the formula would work as you wouldn't know which of the 3 images to apply the percentage adjustment to.

You couldn't even just apply it to their latest one either because if someone puts on an image and then doesn't upload for another month but still continues commenting then they will be penalising themselves with every comment they make.

My only other suggestion at the moment  is just to show the top image of each of the art chart artists, ie if someone has 10 images in the most commented chart then just show their top commented image with a footnote to say that this is the top one of 10 of theirs. This way you would always have 100 different artists images on show in the top 100 which is a far better showcase for true talent and falls in line with what PhilW has just posted. Visitors to the charts would then just click on the artists name under the image to see their gallery.

This to me seems much fairer, but I know I may be upsetting quite legitimate artists who currently have more than one image in the charts.

Any other suggestions from anybody will be welcome.

Tony.

Got it and will pass all this on to the programmers:)

The current art chart abuse is one thing- but I think a lot of the comment spam motivation could be curbed simply by eliminating the "Highest Rated" and "Most Commented".  Clearly the same 8-10 invidiuals rotate through those criteria on a daily basis.  You can literally count on certain individuals making it there daily- just look today, look tomorrow, etc...  Clockwork. 

Not to mention how ridiculous the duplication is, where most images show up in both sections. 

Of course the easiest thing is to bypass the main gallery page and just go to "Whats new"- but if the exact same individuals are the only ones who ever show in "Most Commented" and "Highest Rated"- does it not completely defeat the purpose- whatever that purpose is? 

Personally I dont allow ratings on my images and I don't post every single day like most of these folks, because... well I just dont care- but I really do hate to see a system abused in such a way- If it were to just go away, a large part of the problem would as well- and that problem is the comment spam- and that does bother me because it is insulting to get "Excellent Work" posted by someone who didnt even bother to look at the image, then see that exact same comment from that same person posted on each image posted within a similar timeframe. 

Such a simple change in code to show 12 more of whats new instead of feeding the beast of comment spam and "The Hug Club".   People are less likely to actually favorite an image (part of the criteria for the Art Charts) than they are to post "Excellent Work" on each and every render they see. 

The fact that in my 8 years of being on this site, this or similar topics have come up so many times... well- and look at the reaction for my little "Tribute" to the comment spammers back in 2007:  http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1524749&member 

Quote - I've been a member of Renderosity for a number of years and up until about a year ago I always valued comments left by people, however there seems to be an ever increasing number of people who cut and paste virtually the same comment on hundreds of images, plus a few that seem to favourite everything under the sun. This seems to be in a bid to constantly get in the many art charts that Renderosity produces. This kind of behaviour has nothing to do whatsoever with art and seems to me to be an ego boost of some sort. I have found one artist that has over 1000 pages of favourite images which to me is beyond belief.
Please can we scrap the art charts as they seem pretty meaningless to me these days and may stop this sort of behaviour which is destroying the purpose of Renderosity and one of the reasons that is driving me and many other people away from this site.
I'd like to hear peoples view on this as I have spoken with many people on here who feel exactly the same way as me.

yes this chsrts chasing is like everyday life some people chase this demons some other ones those demons,
but if i would have to live of charts-hihi-i would starve that is as much as i care for charts.
some very good musicians never made it to the charts guess why?? same thing although on a different level.
but the goal remains  the same aeons before us and aeons after us.
get on top,use your elbows,sh..on the neighbour all that c...!!

see ya guys.

I for one am tired of seeing the same people over and over, with 4 pieces of art on the charts.  There are tons of other great artists on here that never get the recognition they deserve.

Thanks for all the suggestions gang, I'll get them added to the list :)

The idea about independent panels was bouncing around my head again and I came up with something that would work without too much possibility for abuse.

There are, at pretty much any given time, more than 3,000 members online, which seems like a good place to start. How about randomly picking 10 or 12 judges for a month, among the active members?

It would be a great opportunity for the members to become actively involved in the process, quite democratic, and a bit like a community service - in a very positive way, of course. Maybe Rendo would also be willing to throw in a gift certificate or something, at the end of the month, as a little 'Thank You'.

The panel members would be taken off the eligible candidates' list for the next eleven months, which pretty much guarantees diversity, opens the way for varying opinions and perspectives - and curbs favoritism.

I realize that some members would be less than enthusiastic and others simply won't have the time to look through the postings and make their picks, but we have a lot of members! I'm sure we could find many who'd love the opportunity. It seems better to me, than asking directly for volunteers (which might open the door for too much favoritism again) and getting 'professional' judges would have even more ghastly consequences in the long run.

The nuts and bolts need to be worked out, of course, but it's any idea.

hi chris i agree,this could work - let everything aside and take only the logic of the numbers.
the way you suggest would indeed open diversity.

i think so at least and it might even be real fun with a gift and becoming to know more people because you see all the time different names everywhere and you pop here and there,it is true there are thousand out there even millions wich we do not know yet ,could be a challenge.

Quote - The idea about independent panels was bouncing around my head again and I came up with something that would work without too much possibility for abuse.

There are, at pretty much any given time, more than 3,000 members online, which seems like a good place to start. How about randomly picking 10 or 12 judges for a month, among the active members?

It would be a great opportunity for the members to become actively involved in the process, quite democratic, and a bit like a community service - in a very positive way, of course. Maybe Rendo would also be willing to throw in a gift certificate or something, at the end of the month, as a little 'Thank You'.

The panel members would be taken off the eligible candidates' list for the next eleven months, which pretty much guarantees diversity, opens the way for varying opinions and perspectives - and curbs favoritism.

I realize that some members would be less than enthusiastic and others simply won't have the time to look through the postings and make their picks, but we have a lot of members! I'm sure we could find many who'd love the opportunity. It seems better to me, than asking directly for volunteers (which might open the door for too much favoritism again) and getting 'professional' judges would have even more ghastly consequences in the long run.

The nuts and bolts need to be worked out, of course, but it's any idea.

 i am going now the first time ever to have a look at the charts,as i was never interested in,but it seems to be an issue here,so i will check out for myself.

i am a doer-lol.

StaceyG
É louvavel os vários processos para aumentar a o intercambio, e desenvolver uma amizade e respeito maior dentro da RR, que vem sendo feito. Visto o Chat, os Jogos, uma integração maior de todos dentro do respeito e admiração. Sinceramente art-char, colar comentários, são coisas que a meu ver como esta só tem feito estimular e acrescentar a RR. Este assunto tem machucado muitos. Talves poucos querem ter seu ego aumentado em detrimento da harmonia e amizade pela qual a RR vem lutando.

Sugiro com todo o respeito que não se mexa nestas partes e sim se crie um novo tipo, como o chat e o jogo:
DAR UMA TEMATICA: AMOR, TERRA , ETC...
Seriam colocadas normalmente em suas galerias normais
1 - Todos poderiam indicar durante um mes as obras que acharem melhor, diretamente a RR.
2- Depois das indicações, a RR colocaria as 40 ou qualquer outro numero de obras a votação livre de todos. ( seria limitada uma única obra por artista , talvez a com mais comentários e fav) - com o nome e o artista. Nada secreto.
3- Dentro de um número de 10 ou 5 mais votadas, a RR escolheria classificação, atraves de algum método. Qualidade, produtos utilizados ou qualquer outro.

Apenas uma sugestão, para que possa haver uma participação mair e uma integração mais profunda.
Vi muitos artistas e amigos machucados com esta polêmica posta aqui que não passa de uma mera repetição ciclica.

Sei que talvez não fosse aqui o local para colocar esta sugestão, mas doeu-me ver amigos machucados e magoados com algumas colocações.
Atenciosamente
Flávio Kern 

StaceyG
We welcome the various processes to increase the exchange, and develop a greater friendship and respect within the RR, which is being done. Since the chat, the Games, greater integration of all with respect and admiration. Frankly char-art, paste comments are things that I see how this is done only stimulate and add the RR. This issue has hurt many. Perhaps just want your ego at the expense of increased harmony and friendship in which the RR is struggling.

I suggest with respect that does not move on these parts, but to create a new type, such as chat and the game:
DAR a theme: LOVE, EARTH, ETC ...
Normally would be placed in their normal galleries
1 - All for one month could indicate the works that feel better, directly to RR.
2 - After the alert, RR put the 40 or any number of works to free vote of all. (Work would be limited by a single artist, perhaps the more comments and fav) - with the name and artist. Nothing secret.
3 - In a number of 10 or 5 most voted, RR choose classification, through any method. Quality, or other products used.

Just a suggestion in order to have a stake Mair and deeper integration.
I saw many artists and friends hurt by this controversy put here that is just a mere repetition cyclic.

I know that perhaps it was not the place here to put this suggestion, but hurt me see friends injured and bruised with some placements.
Regards
Flávio Kern

We'll get that added to the list of suggestions Flavio.

Thanks!

~Jani

Any update on this one yet?
Thanks.
Tony.

hi tony have not heard about this eiter,since i was here last time ages ago.

I came across this thread looking for "shower" and initially was sympathethetic to the ideas because I too have observed the obvious, that people develop fan clubs so that their work may always get 30 favorable comments irrespective of how good it is whilst other better pictures are ignored. Completely true but is this really so unreasonable? There are a handful of artists who are so damned good that they will deservedly get acclaim. The vast majority are pretty competent but not outstanding. Now suppose you are polite and in your bored moment comment on someones pictures but they never bother to comment on yours even though you think your pictures are just as good. Wouldn't you just get fed up and not bother? The people who have their automatic fan clubs have got there by reciprocating. Now if you feel that you are an unrecognised artist spend some time commenting on other peoples work or if you cannot be bothered accept that it is unreasonable to expect something for nothing! Afterall the other people in Renderosity are mainly artists themselves and are not there to support you. PS I dont have a fan club so the most I ever came was 46th out of 50 one week, once, so not saying this out of self interest but just because I understand the principle of reciprocity. Keep the charts as they are BUT if you want to set up independent panels AS WELL seems like a good idea.