I’m asking because recently I purchased some characters where the INJ poses only changed morph channel values and did not inject the delta information.

Once upon a time they were called INJ poses because they primarily injected delta information and poses that only changed the morph channel values were called MOR poses.  Did that change and I just didn’t get the memo?

So basically do you feel that is it fair to complain that these INJ poses don’t work correctly or is that just the way it is now?

@ chriscox

I share your grief. :(

Whilst I mostly rely on freebies, and don't buy much stuff, I'm sick of downloading "morphs" that are really just MOR poses (for morph packs I don't have). Just the other day I downloaded a vampire "character" for M4. The thumbnail looked great, a really fearsome monster! When I extracted the package it was just a texture and MAT pose, not even dial spins. It turned out that image used for the thumb was someone else's MOR pose, and yet the texture was listed as a character.

Standards have slipped way down, but I don't see any signs of the peasants revolting, so I guess we can expect the standards to slip still further. All the time I see posts here like:

"I just bought Poser last week, and made a morph [dial spin] for V4. Can someone tell me how to make an INJ, because I want to sell my crappy morph and make a lot of money. Oh yes, one other thing, is there a way to move the camera?"

There is nothing wrong with MOR poses, and nothing wrong with textures on their own. But they should not be represented as something that they are not. And if you charge for it, isn't that called fraud?

I'm starting to create content, and I've followed those guideline that you mention(calling MOR those that actually depend on morph packs an INJ to those who include custom geometry), I'm frankly against putting rules on this kind of work, artistic, but it seems to me that these rules or guidelines ARE nesesary....

Hopin' not to bother but to help
JasonBlood

Quote - So basically do you feel that is it fair to complain that these INJ poses don’t work correctly or is that just the way it is now?

If they were for the original V4 then you have to take into account that all the deltas were preloaded (the same was true of A3 and H3), so any INJ poses made using either IPB or IPM would (correctly) not actually INJ any deltas.
A lot of newer merchants will just use whatever tool they have to produce files with a limited (if any) understanding of the technical details.

If the end result looks like what was shown in the ad and the requirements were listed accurately, I personally wouldn't quibble about treminology. 

Quote - If the end result looks like what was shown in the ad and the requirements were listed accurately, I personally wouldn't quibble about treminology. 

I agree, if they used a MOR that wasn't included in the product that should have been made clear in the product description.

MOR poses may be OK for figures with the morph data included as V2 or V4 but, for figures like V4.2 MOR poses are a crap as you don't know which morphs are necessary so you have to inject all morphs before you can use the MOR pose. For those figures the only professional way to inject morphs is a file with readScript commands or with custom morph data.

And freebies, some of them are excellent, better then some of the "commercial" products but a lot of them are crap, wrong pathes, missing textures, textures like the ones you found in the early days of Poser, just a coloured body with a darker spot for the nipples and that in 4000 x 4000 pixels.

@ lmckenzie.

I see your point,  but if I am led to believe that  an item is an INJ ( custom geometry), and it turns out it is just someone's own recipe of spun dials  of an existing morph pack, i have these issues with it being advertised as an INJ morph:

1. I might not have the required morph set
2. If all i am getting is someone's interpretation of  a nice recipe of exisiting poplar morph dials, well no thanks, I can  spin morph dials meself. I would prefer to have recieved something truly unique into which the artists put some real effort.

@ santicor,

To be fair, I must say that I think that a pz2 that calls other files that ultimately do inject something, like the V4 ++ morphs for example, can legitimately be called an INJ files, because they do result in the injection of deltas into the figure. This is certainly the sense in which DAZ use the term "INJ".

IMHO as long as the file ultimately results in the injection of deltas, it can rightly be called an INJ file, even if the morphs injected are not original to the vendor. However I think the vendor is responsible for pointing out loud and clear that that some other product is required in order to use their INJ files.

From my reading, I think what chriscox is talking about is something quite different. He clearly states that the files he bought "... only changed morph channel values and did not inject the delta information ". I take that to mean that the files neither contained deltas, nor called other files which ultimately lead to the injection of deltas**.** In other words that they were strictly, and only, MOR (or MOR/MAT) poses .

@ Jules53757,

Quote - for figures like V4.2 MOR poses are a crap as you don't know which morphs are necessary so you have to inject all morphs before you can use the MOR pose.

Agree with that point.

With freebies I am willing to overlook a lot of mistakes. The people who make them are often just learning, and distributing freebies is a very good way to discover mistakes before going commercial. And it's perhaps a bit impolite to complain when something is for free, and posted with generous intentions  (but I'm going to shortly).

Just the other day I downloaded some poses, and whilst they contained absolute paths to a drive "J:", and a lot of PBM channels that should not have been included, as poses they were really great. I did not mind fixing them up, because I now have some really nice poses for free. What really gets my goat with freebies, or commercial products, is when they are not what they claim to be. Like "characters" that are just texture/MAT files with not even a dial spin is sight, or "morphs" that are just MOR poses, or INJ files that require some other product, but don't tell you they require that product at the download link. Still, with freebies all I have lost is a bit of time downloading the thing and checking it out, but with commercial products this sort of misrepresentation is inexcusable.

**nruddock basically answered my question.  **

** **

**I took a look and INJection Pose Builder and it is lacking with regards to V4.  It basically only allows you to make what are technically MOR poses for V4.0 but by default adds INJ to the end of the pose’s name.  No support for v4.1 or 4.2 or at least not in the copy of IPB 1.5 that I redownloaded yesterday. **

** **

Apparently it became OK to label MOR poses “INJ” because that’s what IPB does.

** **

So it’s not really fair to bash a novice merchant because they are using poorly updated software and don’t know any better.

Quote - I'm starting to create content, and I've followed those guideline that you mention(calling MOR those that actually depend on morph packs an INJ to those who include custom geometry), I'm frankly against putting rules on this kind of work, artistic, but it seems to me that these rules or guidelines ARE nesesary....

Hopin' not to bother but to help
JasonBlood

Actually, I feel that if it adds morph deltas to the figure it should be called and INJ pose even if those deltas come from mophs pack such as V4's Morphs++.

When V3 came out with INJ technology, DAZ suggested one of the ways to distribute characters made with DAZ mophs was to create a readScript file to inject the morph(s), i.e., an INJ pose.

"1. I might not have the required morph set

1. If all i am getting is someone's interpretation of a nice recipe of exisiting poplar morph dials, well no thanks, I can spin morph dials meself. I would prefer to have recieved something truly unique into which the artists put some real effort." 

r.e. 1: Yes, that's why I added the *caveat. "*and the requirements were listed accurately"

r.e. 2: I guess this is more like a philosophical difference to me. Since I don't have the talent and/or inclination to spin dials myself, the end result is really the only thing that matters to me. Yes, I'm impressed in a way when I see "custom ZBrush morphs," but that in an of itself doesn't determine whether I like the result and so, from a practical standpoint, I don't hold the dial spinners in any less regard. They're both providing something I couldn't/wouldn't do myself.

I think the terminology thing is a bit inside the beltway. There's probably always value in a consistent nomenclature. For whatever reasons, the Poserverse can be a bit haphazard, what with official parts, user generated hacks, etc. What's a "character" vs what's a "figure" yada, yada. There's plenty of room for confusion. My bet is that most users don't know or care as long as the description makes clear what they need to have and what they get is a reasonable facsimile of what was in the picture. 

I can do a bit cr2 editing  and write utilities to automate stuff, but frankly I'm not up on the fine points of MOR vs INJ. I try it on a base V4 and if it doesn't work, I run it on a loaded one. Beyond that, meh, I'm more worried about the report that the TV boxes are controlling our minds.

Quote - No support for v4.1 or 4.2 or at least not in the copy of IPB 1.5 that I redownloaded yesterday.

I think someone did some config files, check the FreeStuff here, and the DAZ forums.

Quote - Apparently it became OK to label MOR poses “INJ” because that’s what IPB does.

Before V3, all character poses were effectively MORs, but the only poses named as MOR were those for setting non-character morphs.
The use of the MOR tag for poses setting character morphs seems to have crept in over time, and used interchangeably (or as well as) INJ.

Quote - > Quote - No support for v4.1 or 4.2 or at least not in the copy of IPB 1.5 that I redownloaded yesterday.

I think someone did some config files, check the FreeStuff here, and the DAZ forums.

Quote - Apparently it became OK to label MOR poses “INJ” because that’s what IPB does.

Before V3, all character poses were effectively MORs, but the only poses named as MOR were those for setting non-character morphs.
The use of the MOR tag for poses setting character morphs seems to have crept in over time, and used interchangeably (or as well as) INJ.

Maybe before 2001, but by 2001 some people were already referring to MOR poses as a way of setting morph channel values for characters.  By the end of 2002 even I had made a MOR pose for sharing a dial spun V2 character.  

I always though that MOR poses were just poses that set Morph Channel values, character or otherwise.

Granted for V2 most people added something like “_morph” to the poses file name and actually adding MOR to the file names wasn’t done much until V3.

Quote - MOR poses may be OK for figures with the morph data included as V2 or V4 but, for figures like V4.2 MOR poses are a crap as you don't know which morphs are necessary so you have to inject all morphs before you can use the MOR pose.

This is poor design on the vendor's part - there is no reason that you can't have a "MOR" pose go load whatever morphs required and then set their values in the same pose file.  As long as the user has not customized their runtime and moved the deltas to another directory than default, this works fine (I've done it this way).

Quote - I can do a bit cr2 editing  and write utilities to automate stuff, but frankly I'm not up on the fine points of MOR vs INJ. I try it on a base V4 and if it doesn't work, I run it on a loaded one. Beyond that, meh, I'm more worried about the report that the TV boxes are controlling our minds.

My point is if a pose were labeled MOR then I would know before hand that I needed a V4 with the morphs already loaded and not be wasting my time trying to use the pose on a base V4 that didn't have the Morphs already installed.  You apparently don't care if you are wasting your time with mislabeled poses but I would rather not.  Granted, it’s not really a big deal, just a minor annoyance that's been bothering me.

Quote - > Quote - I can do a bit cr2 editing  and write utilities to automate stuff, but frankly I'm not up on the fine points of MOR vs INJ. I try it on a base V4 and if it doesn't work, I run it on a loaded one. Beyond that, meh, I'm more worried about the report that the TV boxes are controlling our minds.

My point is if a pose were labeled MOR then I would know before hand that I needed a V4 with the morphs already loaded and not be wasting my time trying to use the pose on a base V4 that didn't have the Morphs already installed.  You apparently don't care if you are wasting your time with mislabeled poses but I would rather not.  Granted, it’s not really a big deal, just a minor annoyance that's been bothering me.

I take it product requirements didn't say that, for example V4.2 base, and V4.2++ morphs are required?  If it didn't, they should have.

Some people like MOR pose type charactes quite a bit, because it makes it quick work fitting superconforming clothes to them.... Assuming superconformers do have those morphs in them.

I'd reccommend returning the character in question, and letting the merchant know it's because it's promo material wasn't clear enough about what you're getting.

Generally though, having an "INJ" pose doesn't always mean it's going to inject deltas. term "INJ" in commercially available character packs often ends up being used to inject and remove dial values (MORPH Poses), rather then morph deltas. For some reason MOR Poses didn't really catch on.

" You apparently don't care if you are wasting your time with mislabeled poses" 

Yeah, that's probably true. Since I don't use Poser more than a couple of times a week, a couple of minutes here and there aren't a big deal to me. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing though and I probably stated it badly.

If the product didn't state that the morphs were required, you have every right to be annoyed and demand a refund. OTOH, if it said requires Morphs++ and you went soley by the filenames, that seems a little like seeing "battery powered" and not looking at the "batteries not included." My point is that I'm not overly concerned with the specific technology used to implement the product. If it says Morphs++ (which seems to be required 90+% of the time), then I'll discover quickly enough how to get it working. 

The stores can and should enforce some standards for commercial products.  I think that they're the only ones who could achieve what you want - if you can get them to agree.

But what do you expect. People are sometimes a little bit nuts. If you check this thread: www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

The Author has no idea about clothes, except he wrote that he made one as an object, and has now the idea the community is waiting to buy his clothes. No idea about rigging, cr2 creating and so on.

This shows clearly that it is time for the stores, to build a system of requirements and standards for products and to publish them.

If you check commercial products, e. g. hair is mostly a good example, you will find bones  not necessary, even for the fingers and the toes. And that are products sold at DAZ and others.

If you check the directories you will often find textures not used in the product and so on. This list will be endless so I'll stop here. We as users have the chance to change this when we ask for refund for such crappy products so the stores will see that we as the customers are the bosses.

Hair and clothes are hard to make. I can't make clothes yet. And I struggle with hair.

I think a big market for hair and clothes is a reasonable thing- but everyone should at least TRY the hair and set up  rooms, so they understand more about what might be out there for sale. Take Jules for instance, because Jules has knowledge of the craft, Jules knows what is good and what is most likely crap.

 I don't get the people that want to  go  out and immediately start making beautiful renders  in their first week of owning Poser, by shopping for everything  .  morphs  ??  people want to buy morphs?   and even  worse -POSES ???  Well ,Why did you buy Poser???  and  buying clothes while not understanding how clothing works?

Its one of the reasons people sell  crap - because there is a segment of the community that will  BUY it.
Hell i  cannot blame the sellers.  I love dough , too!

Quote - **I took a look and INJection Pose Builder and it is lacking with regards to V4.  It basically only allows you to make what are technically MOR poses for V4.0 but by default adds INJ to the end of the pose’s name.  No support for v4.1 or 4.2 or at least not in the copy of IPB 1.5 that I redownloaded yesterday. **

You have to build your own (or find someone who already did and has it up to share) your own library files for newer figures, or those that weren't included in the first place, with IPB. Can be a bit of work, but it's a one time thing once you're done, outside of when they release more morphs for the base figure.

I use it simply because it does save me a bit of time when I decide to share my dialed characters. And thus far all my freebies work like they're supposed to...unless people are keeping quiet. (I never know...I've found odd errors in some of my stuff that I swear wasn't there when I packaged it...and no one ever said anything)

Quote - But what do you expect. People are sometimes a little bit nuts. If you check this thread: www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

The Author has no idea about clothes, except he wrote that he made one as an object, and has now the idea the community is waiting to buy his clothes. No idea about rigging, cr2 creating and so on.

This shows clearly that it is time for the stores, to build a system of requirements and standards for products and to publish them.

If you check commercial products, e. g. hair is mostly a good example, you will find bones  not necessary, even for the fingers and the toes. And that are products sold at DAZ and others.

If you check the directories you will often find textures not used in the product and so on. This list will be endless so I'll stop here. We as users have the chance to change this when we ask for refund for such crappy products so the stores will see that we as the customers are the bosses.

That is an unfair dig, the OP in the thread you linked too, quickly realised he was not up to the selling stage when the process was explained to him.

Sorry but have a look at the posting time. And, what is unfair? What is wrong in my posting?

Quote - Sorry but have a look at the posting time. And, what is unfair? What is wrong in my posting?

So, calling someone 'a little bit nuts' is just fine in your book?

I mean, I can understand the sentiment and wanting to tell someone off, or wanting to put someone down etc, Most of us aren't the epitome of prim and proper behavior.

What does baffle me when people do it, and then go, unh, huh, what? I didn't do anything wrong, what did I do???...

Makes me wonder if they are a bit dense, of if they actually think everyone else around them is a bit dense, and they're getting away with it.

The guy that you linked to got ahead of himself thinking he's ready to sell clothes, lot of people do that.  I'm willing to bet you that the poster you linked to never so much as read Rendo's product submission requirements and guidelines. This means that his personal lack of knowledge about things is not indicative of store standards or your percieved lack thereof.