waves to all the lurkers

So, I'm in the process of changing her default proportions. I'm working on a script that will adjust the rigging to the new shape, since going through the figure and changing all the centers would be extremely tedious and also error-prone. Since the script needs to find particular channels in particular channels, I've written a tiny parser that converts the file into a tree structure in memory. That should come in handy for other tasks as well.

Completely unrelated topic: does anyone have compelling reasons why the toe caps should be part of the figure as opposed to, say, conforming figures? They are in fact causing a lot of trouble, and seem to be of relatively limited use. Particularly, if someone wants a figure that wears stockings but no shoes or shoes in which the individual toes are visible. I think I can make conforming figures that fit just as well to her feet as the included toecaps, and that won't cause all the welding accidents (caused by duplicate vertices at actor-boundaries) that I'm getting with the current version. My feeling is that these innocent looking additions to the mesh might well turn into a nightmare for morph-makers.

Any opinions?

I would vote for toe caps as conforming figures for sure, same job, less trouble

also the new proportions look fantastic!

In my original suggestion to add the toe caps, it was to AVOID a nightmare for morph-makers.

You speak of duplicate vertices. Why are there any? The way I imagined it, the existing vertices of the foot would be used to stretch addition polygons that span the toes. I don't know how you made them, but that's what I was suggesting. The result would be that as the foot bends, or toes bend, or the toes are morphed, the corresponding sock polys would move, just like real life. Why did this entail duplicate vertices?

And the only reason I suggested them in the first place was because it is a constant complaint that conforming stockings suck ass. Since you were innovating, it seemed like something worth applying. If it seems that conforming are actually better (not easier to implement, I mean better) then by all means drop it.

If it seems that built-in is better, but the technique was non-optimal, then why not just do it differently so that duplicate vertices are not necessary?

bagginsbill: The problem is that I need the normals to match between the skin and the toecaps along the transition line (or better, a transition zone). The easiest way to achieve that for both versions of the mesh simultaneously is to duplicate vertices over a certain range. An alternative I could try is to lift the toecap vertices from the base mesh just enough so that programs like Poser and DAZ Studio recognize them as different, but the normals still match and the displacement is not visible in renders. Another thing I could do is work with the toecaps remove while working on the figure and put them back on for the final version, hoping that other developers will never run into the problems I'm having now.

But to be honest, I am not entirely sure anymore if built-in toecaps are really better than conforming ones. They are certainly better than full conforming stockings, but that's not the alternative I'm suggesting. A conforming figure could inherit all the bend parameters from the base mesh, and I fail to see how it would be trickier to make morphs for two separate meshes than for the exact same geometry baked into one mesh. In fact, I think it would be easier to work on one figure at a time.

Finally, let me just quote something you posted in another thread a few minutes ago: "Look, we can all wish that every possible flaw, every possible thing that is non-optimal, all of it gets fixed all at once." 

PS: Oh, now I finally understand what you were thinking of. facepalm I never even thought in that direction because it's simply not done. A mesh is a manifold. Period. Most modelers won't accept meshes that aren't, or worse, accept them but do very strange and wrong things with them. The algorithms I use wouldn't work with what you're suggesting. If you paid my wages for a few years, I could go and singlehandedly change that whole paradigm, but I'm not even sure that's so desirable.

 I vote for ditching the toe caps.  Conformers should work fine. ANy texture on the toes won't be that visible, and with a texture transparency on the toe caps, it SHOULD look like stockings without all the mess of full conformer problems.  At least it seems so to me.

My personal preference is for toe caps or anything else Like that (pubic hair or genital "cache-sexe") to be a parented prop as opposed to conforming figure... I just find conforming stuff aside from shirt/pants/skirt to be hard to work with since I often do a lot of scaling etc... I usually just parent conforming hair and genitals etc. I /think/ the toe caps might even be able to "inherit" toe bends if they are parented. I tend to like geometry switching over parented props and parented props over conforming figures but that is just me.

Toes would work great!

 I think that Antonia's toe-caps would be more like gloves.

Except fpr the toes.:laugh:

For scaling: Parent the conformer to the BODY of the figure, and scale away.  I use scaling for my hundreds of characters I have in my on-line novel I'm doing in my gallery.  Works fine for me. ^__^V,,

Just wanted to show the results of changing a few parameters in the vss settings.

This is the skin tone I've been trying to achieve...yay!

Quote - My personal preference is for toe caps or anything else Like that (pubic hair or genital "cache-sexe") to be a parented prop as opposed to conforming figure... I just find conforming stuff aside from shirt/pants/skirt to be hard to work with since I often do a lot of scaling etc... I usually just parent conforming hair and genitals etc. I /think/ the toe caps might even be able to "inherit" toe bends if they are parented. I tend to like geometry switching over parented props and parented props over conforming figures but that is just me.

I agree that whenever a prop can do the job, it should be preferred over a conforming figure. If and when I make pubic hair for Antonia - and I say 'if' only because someone else might get to it before I do, in which case I might not bother anymore - I'll definitely try to make it a prop. Antonia's unlike any figure I've seen because her groin region actually deforms quite a bit via JCMs following the movements of the legs. So any prop that sits on top of that region would need to inherit some of those deformations via ERC magicks, but I'm pretty sure it can be done.

I think geometry switching could in fact work really well for toecaps that aren't supposed to be transparent. In that case I would just replace the toe geometry with the toecap geometry instead of combining them. I'll have to think about that. I mean, how often do we need a figure in stockings and sandals or just stockings without shoes, and we actually need the toes to be visible through the tips of the stockings? I might have some posing morph and/or JCMs in those parts as well, so I'd probably have to use a pose file to do the switch., so the geometry and the morph could be switched over at the same time.

PS: glad to see you around, momodot.

Quote - Dropping out of "lurking" mode for a minute.

Just wanted to show the results of changing a few parameters in the vss settings.

This is the skin tone I've been trying to achieve...yay!

That skin tone looks very Akasha to me. Great job!

Seeing that I wonder if Mr. Bagginsbill would have some white marble or alabaster shader that could be tried on her skin, and what it would look like. It's been a while since I read the book, though, so I'm not quite sure whether she's still supposed to look like a statue skin-wise after she wakes up.

A little but not as much.
Still, that would really be great for scenes where she is still sitting on her throne like a statue. :)

Toe caps or no toe caps as mesh as opposed to smart propped?
Who wants it anyway?
Why anyone who has a bare foot with stockings fetish of course. Smart propped would be fine. I wish content creators did more of that instead of conforming stuff especially conforming hair...Grrrrrr!
Question and it may seem off-topic here forgive me if it is but is it easier to create a standard .hr2 hair prop or a conforming hair prop? Even if you parent the hair to the figure and then try to pose it it is a nightmare. Why do people stick to conforming stuff for the likes of so many things that can juat as easily be left as either smart props or 'hair props?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure props don't bend. No matter how 'smart' they are. :biggrin: That's why I don't think a prop would work for those toe caps, unless you want to immobilize Antonia's toes.

That said, I'm not sure how useful conforming figures really are for long hair. For really short hair, it seems a nuisance, and still some developers do it. But maybe there are reasons for making a conforming figure rather than a prop that I don't understand.

I know smart props don't bend. They are really only .obj or .3ds in origin.
Say you create s regular slip on pump. Why for the love of pete make it as a conforming prop? It doesn't need to move once on the foot and if the prop os made properly it works fine as is.
I have had to always go in and re-export these items out again as individual left and right foot props so I could use them on other figures.
Say you create a great hair. why do it as a Conforming figure when some of the best hair out there by Quarker and AprilYSH, Kozaburo and others are regular fully posable hair files that you can use on all figures. I wish i knew how to  onvert conforming hair to regular .Hr2 hair props. I would be HAPPY!
I understand the toe cap would be sweet if it wiggled and spread with the toes to make it more realistic. if that can be had super hallewooya!  :)
But I have an old smart prop toe cap I use from time to time when desperate for V2 & the MilPt and it gets me by. The prop parented to the toe goes up and down and side to side and twists with the toes. it does not wiggle or spread for individual toe movements but how many of those does V2 have in the original mesh? Very few making it a non-issue. Of course if it was a what you are proposing for Antonia....Wigglie kind!...for a foot fetishist like me that would be DeVine!

odf are you waiting for Poser 8 to finish Antonia? This may be wise.

Quote - odf are you waiting for Poser 8 to finish Antonia? This may be wise.

Chances are Poser 8 will be out long before I have any chance to finish her. I'm definitely planning to buy it and will of course test Antonia with it as soon as I can. But I will most likely keep the base figure P4 compatible, and I'll definitely not use any P8-specific features in it.

happy to hear that.
i can't buy another Poser anywhere near soon. :)

Just made arrangements to purchase a headstone for my son's grave.
Got to pay $150.00 a month till it is paid for before it is set up.

that is taking a big chunk out of my income now.

Parents shouldn't have to bury their children. I feel for your pain.
Income? What income? Been out of work for 0ver 2 years and have not been able to get reemployed in my field. Finally got a chump change $7.25 an hour job for 20 hours a week in a local library undergoing employee radical purges and deficit cuts. Things suck.
Poser 8?
FOGETABOUTTFORREALNOTGOINGTOHAPPENANYTIMESOON!  :(

 Poverty seems to be contagious.  I came down with a bad case of it,too.  All we can do is what we can and keep up each other's spirits until we, each, can afford to do what we want.  Until then we have to do what we have to do.

Like shante said, when parents have to bury their own children, that must be one of the saddest things in the world. I am very sorry that you have to go through that.

To explain a little better what I mean by not using P8 features: I will definitely take advantage of features that more recent versions of Poser offer, but keep it out of the base figure. For example, if I found that the new rigging features really helped, I might try an alternative rigging, but then I'd either put that in a pose file (if possible) or make an alternative cr2.

I don't think I will be that strict with the "P4 only" rule when it comes to add-ones, though. Materials are an obvious example. In some cases I might distribute add-ons that would require P5 or higher and rely on the community to add support for older versions.

What if toe caps where widen on the inside of the toe with a morph (like the hide brows many figures have ) this way they will always be there and the switch would be just a morph

Nice idea, pitklad, but I don't think it would work.

The thing with 'hide' morphs is that additional morphs might be applied to the hidden part, causing it to come out of hiding. This would not typically happen for brows, unless one made a really oddly shaped alien head, but for toe JCMs it would almost certainly would, as feet are not vaguely ball-shaped like heads.

Of course, a variation of your idea might work to fix those welding problems. The default shape could have the boundary of the toecaps inside or outside the foot geometry far enough to avoid welding accidents when exporting or importing. Then a morph would be applied to that in order to put them back in a useful position.

I'm still thinking though that if I have to resort to tricks like that, maybe it's better to just keep the toecaps separate from the main geometry.

odf

As far as I know you have Poser and Wings, any other app's ?
If you do not have zbrush you might want to check it out.

You seem to be following Poser D/S philosophy of have a single mesh do every thing.
why ?

Sence your releasing Antonia for free.
Why not release her now ?

Quote - As far as I know you have Poser and Wings, any other app's ?
If you do not have zbrush you might want to check it out.

I have Poser, Daz Studio, ZBrush, Wings, Blender and a bunch of self-written tools. I will get 3D Coat as soon as they release the native Linux version. I tend to use whatever fits my needs best. Most of the time, that's Wings. I've tried a few things in Houdini, which is what the pros use when they grow out of Maya. I could rig and texture her in Houdini and no doubt make stills and animations that would blow you away. But that wouldn't help any of you Poser folks, so I'm not doing it.

Quote - You seem to be following Poser D/S philosophy of have a single mesh do every thing.

I don't know what that means. You seem to know things about my plans with Antonia that I don't. :biggrin: At the moment, I'm actually using a single mesh to do one thing.

Quote - Sence your releasing Antonia for free.
Why not release her now ?

Two reasons. One: I don't have a place to upload her and keep her up-to-date all the time. Two: people have convinced me that Poser folks could not handle a figure that isn't ready and tested. I'm uploading previews every once in a while, though, and if anyone really wants the bleeding edge version, they can have it and do with it whatever they please. I'm just not allowing redistribution for now, because I might still make incompatible changes.

For example, the next preview will have different proportions and a different default shape. As long as I know who has the figure and makes morphs and clothes, I can talk to those people and make sure I help them as best I can to convert things to the latest version. If hundreds of users have the figure together with third-party accessories that will invariably break as the figure evolves, there will be tears.

So, that's why.

Out of curiosity, will the new shape be the shape mesh morphed, or a new mesh?  Inquiring minds want to know. 

Quote - ...Two: people have convinced me that Poser folks could not handle a figure that isn't ready and tested.

That just about hits the nail on the head ;o).

I think you're wise not to release her until your finished with her.

Laurie

I'm glad she won't be released until you are sure you're finished with the work.

I can adapt my textures if needed but would rather do that before final release, :)

And it gives me time to also do something else for the markets to earn a little cash for the headstone.

don't guess ypu would make two meshes
one with toes
one with toe caps
cause it's not the poser way

i realy like zbrush transpose rigs and modeling brushes.
when ya posing charaters.

 Geometry switching has been around as long as there has BEEN a Poser program.  Tried and true.  You might want to look into that.  Plenty of people around here know how to do it.  I don't, but SIxus1 or Philc might be worth asking for some advice.

Quote - don't guess ypu would make two meshes
one with toes
one with toe caps
cause it's not the poser way

I said I would consider geometry switching. That is using two different meshes, but of course only for the body parts that differ. I've never ever considered morphing the toes into toe caps, if that's what you think. I know people do all kinds of crazy stuff morphing one shape into a completely different one that the mesh was never made for. But that's not me.

In fact, if I leave the toe caps out of the base mesh, I see no reason why I can't make two versions - one using geometry switch, and one using a conforming figure - and people can decide for themselves which they prefer. They would both use the existing toe cap mesh with the existing grouping, only different ways of loading. Of course the geometry switch version wouldn't allow one to see the toes through the fabric because the toes would be gone.

Quote - i realy like zbrush transpose rigs and modeling brushes.
when ya posing charaters.

My ZBrush copy is a few years old, and I haven't used it for a long time. Some of the newer features look really interesting. When Antonia's done, maybe I'll find time to play with them.

Quote - Out of curiosity, will the new shape be the shape mesh morphed, or a new mesh?  Inquiring minds want to know. 

Don't worry, I'm not making any more changes to the mesh at this point (the toes cap issue not withstanding). It's the same mesh with some changes in shapes and proportions.

I am in fact planning to make a full-body-morph that one can apply to the version from April 14 to obtain the new shape. So people who have MorphingClothes or similar will be able to use that morph to update their clothes, and people who have D|S and MorphLoaderPro will be able to update their morphs.

I spend a few hours this weekend writing a script that would adjust all the actor origins and joint centers to the lengthened upper arms. Works like a charm. It probably took a little bit longer to write than making all the changes by hand would have, but now I can do it again and again, if necessary, and it'll take no longer than half a second each time. :biggrin: Also, I'd probably have made lots of mistakes otherwise. Most of the code I wrote is just generic Poser file parsing and storing things in nice tree structures, which will definitely come in handy for other kinds of cr2 surgery that might become necessary in the future.

Of course I still need to fix the centers for the head, eyes and jaws manually, but that's no biggie.

So I think next I'll shape the new default breasts (small, perky and with less protruding nipples), do some fine-tuning of the arm JCMs and also add JCMs for the wrists, ankles and neck. Once all that's done, it will be time for a new preview release.

Good news, once this release is done, i plan to place some of my stuff on the developper site, so people can play with these things and give some feedback.

This saturnday Antonia got some new shoes, smartprops like the one made by Fisty,

That dress looks great, rjjack. Excellent work!

On second thought, I think I'll put the re-shaped version up on the developers site, so people can start updating their content while I keep working on JCMs. Also, I'd get quicker and more useful feedback.

I've started on reshaping the chest area. I'll probably do this in three steps: 1) flatten the areolae and nipples, 2) fix the bulge on the side of her ribcage, 3) make her breasts smaller and perkier. That way I'll still be able to morph back her original breast shape from the new default using the result of step 2.

 Sounds like a plan to me.  When I said geom switching, I meant toes with toe-caps, and toes without.  Why would you want toeless toecaps?  Sounds like a Billy Idol song, "Eyes without a face".  "Toecaps with a foot" might make a good rock-song, but a poser figur, IMO. :laugh:

Quote -  Sounds like a plan to me.  When I said geom switching, I meant toes with toe-caps, and toes without.  Why would you want toeless toecaps?  Sounds like a Billy Idol song, "Eyes without a face".  "Toecaps with a foot" might make a good rock-song, but a poser figur, IMO. :laugh:

That could work, too.

Does anyone know if and how geometry switching works in DAZ Studio?

Attached Link: Nyacky

yes, a least on DS 3, the link point to a funny japanese figure who use geometry switching, switching is made with poses, or in DS you can directly select the needed geometry with a pull-down menu on the body part, for Poser you get a dial i think

Thanks, rjjack! I guess what I really meant is whether D|S would accept a pose file made for Poser that switched the geometry. I've seen that pull-down menu as well, but I don't remember if one needed any plugins to get that. Well, we'll see. I'll try some things when the time comes, and then the DAZ users can tell me where it breaks.

What do you think, gentle readers?

Can't wait for Poser 8 with it's global illumination renders.

Great!!!!!!!!!!

This is a new standard of female shapes in 3D. Can't wait to put my "hands" on her :tt1: :woot: :thumbupboth:

odf, this is excellent. She is very natural-looking, and I think she will be relatively easy to morph too.

The elbow looks slightly wonky at that bend - but better than any other figures available, if I'm recalling correctly from memory.

You've really got a winner here.

odf...that's fantastic!! The most realistic female I've seen yet! Ya done good ;o).

Laurie

Quote - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure props don't bend. No matter how 'smart' they are. :biggrin:

i'm about equally sure they do (literally, in the correct me if i'm wrong sense).  when you make them "smart" and give them a parent, you just click the box that says "inherit bends of parent."  in my experience, that creates bending/distortion (depends your perspective and intention) with posing.  independent of posing, you can still just give it morphs.  iirc, this is how the freebie shoes i have that (thankfully) don't conform work.

 The elbows are upside-down in bend.  Otherwise, the form is SPECTACULAR.  BEST FORM EVER!  That is a definite winner in my book.  I think that Jules hit the nail on the head this time.  A new standard for female forms is the right terrm, in my opinion.   You did good!

Now that is what I call a woman ;) I thought the original was good, but this one is superb. Good job done!

oh, and she does look absolutely incredible. by far the best Poser figure to date.

Thanks, everyone! I'm glad you like her new shape.

I realize that the elbow bends could use some more work. The shoulders, too, although no one commented on that.

Quote - > Quote - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure props don't bend. No matter how 'smart' they are. :biggrin:

i'm about equally sure they do (literally, in the correct me if i'm wrong sense).  when you make them "smart" and give them a parent, you just click the box that says "inherit bends of parent."  in my experience, that creates bending/distortion (depends your perspective and intention) with posing.  independent of posing, you can still just give it morphs.  iirc, this is how the freebie shoes i have that (thankfully) don't conform work.

Ah! That's what that option is for. facepalm I saw it many times, but apparently, it never registered in my silly brain.

Yes, that could work. Since the toecaps bend pretty well as part of the figure, where they have no chance but to inherit its bends, the same should be true if I turn them into smart props.

What would I do without you guys?